***Your Gay and Lesbian Democrats Suffered Greatly Last Night , at the hands of Dems***

[Ioo]

Prop 8 in CA got a YES... For this to happen, Obama voters had to help, and boy did they.

The right wing took gay marriage to the ballot for the 3rd time, and won finally. (why did it pass this time)

Florida passed a ban on Gay marriage, again at the hands of the democrats, Obama took the state, but almost 10% of them, as they were voting for Obama tossed a few gay people under the bus.

Arkansas passed a ban, but give that is almost not a state, I was not shocked.

[Billy Burnett]

1. They tossed freedom and equality under the bus, not just the GLBT community.

:(

[vaberella]

2. Actually what you should be pissed about is the fact that it was up to voting in the first place.

It was already a damn right and they go and put it on the ballot to fuck up people yet again. That's one of the bigger problems and I'm shocked most people weren't fighting the ballot status in the first place.

[Billy Burnett]

13. We did put up a fight in Florida.

RW Fla courts allowed it on the ballot.

As usual, a Yes vote meant No to human rights and dignity.

:puke:

[NotThisTime]

41. I agree.... should have NEVER even been on the ballot

[and-justice-for-all]

235. That is right! nt

[and-justice-for-all]

234. That is what I have always said...

why are we voting on something that already exist?? This 'vote' is to see if being a bigot is OK.

[Why Syzygy]

275. That's what I don't understand .. in California

the Supreme Court had already ruled. How can they then just put it on ballot? Can it be challenged again? I wish people would just let others be who they are. sheesh

[Occam Bandage]

3. Why did it pass? I'd guess that it passed

because of increased turnout in the black community.

[AngryAmish]

54. of AA voters, 70-30 pro prop 8

that is the stat I saw.

For shame.

[endthewar]

82. Don't try to blame blacks for this world's problems

[Occam Bandage]

89. Don't try to excuse bigots because of their skin color.

30% of blacks in CA ought be commended. The other 70% constitute the most reliable pro-bigotry vote in California. That is a problem, and one that we'll have to confront if we plan on moving this country forward.

[endthewar]

96. The problem is you're depending on judicial activism for social justice

when it is CLEAR that it is the legislative branch which holds the final say on gay marriage right now. You should work on changing the hearts and minds of people who think that legal unions are just fine instead of focusing on changing the hearts and minds of appellate court judges. This is a criticism of the movement's tactics, not its positions. Reading comprehension will help you understand that.

[Lyric]

108. "Judicial activism"?? FUCK YOU.

Seriously. Just fuck you.

It wasn't "judicial activism" when Brown v. The Board of Education was decided, and it won't be "judicial activism" when the Constitutional rights of gay people are finally respected, either. You want to talk about "reading comprehension?" Read the fucking First Amendment, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution.

NO Governmental imposition of RELIGION, including religious "values." (1st)
NO treating citizens UNEQUALLY under the law (14th)
NO states refusing to honor contracts signed in other states (FF&C)

Then tell me WHERE exactly any of those say, "Except for the goddamned gays."

And take your right-wing talking points fucking elsewhere.

[endthewar]

118. Judicial activism, judicial decisions, call it what you like, it's still the same result

Look, judicial activism has brought a lot of good. Brown v. Board of Education was judicial activism. But the difference was that it had de facto support by the people after the civil rights movement and thus also would have legislative support. I'm only explaining to you why you're having to post in a thread lamenting the passing of this proposition. If you think that the gay marriage movement's tactics are on point, then why did it fail? If you care about it passing, you'll take my words seriously. Gay marriage won't be fully supported in California until it is possible to hold the legislatures feet to the fire. That's how the civil rights movement exacted social change and that's how the gay marriage movement in California can exact change.

And that's why as a voter in MA gay marriage is still legal here. One of my friends worked with a volunteer group lobbying the legislative branch on this issue. Turns out she found that to be the best method for gay marriage to be legal in Massachusetts. I believe that would apply to California as well.

I'm just the messenger. You don't have to listen, but don't be so surprised in 2012 if gay marriage is on the ballot again in California and it is defeated if more focus isn't put on the legislative branch.

[bluedawg12]

198. Two things: While the AA civil rights movment had the support

of the people, it was largely due to the work of Church's organizing at the grass roots level and providing a moral framework for the cause with in and with out the AA community.

Those same Church's are often openly anti-gay.

Second, when the AA civil rights movement started, white American's of conscience crossed over racial lines and there was multi-racial support.

Here, it's the exact opposite, statiscally. Gays fight homophobia in the general population and fight it specifially in other groups who, having tasted bigotry and should know better, fail to form a coalition with gays.

http://www.blacklightonline.com/phobia.html

Homophobia in
the Black community
...........

More links here:
http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/resources.html

.........

So how much more do gays have to say, do, debate, explain...to convince others that they are human and deserve fair treatment and basic human rights, and what difference could it make, when homophobia is institutionalized?

[endthewar]

257. The problem for the gay marriage movement

is that they haven't convinced people of substantive differences between civil unions and gay marriages. The vast majority of Americans support civil unions, but the vast majority of Americans don't support gay marriages. I guarantee that if you poll the average American, they wouldn't know what legal differences there are between civil unions and gay marriages. I bet many people who support gay marriage don't know the legal differences between civil unions and gay marriages. I think the true pathforward is educating the American people about consequential differences between civil unions and gay marriages.

Think of this as an equivalent to separate but equal. People supported separate but equal until the civil rights era educated them as to how flawed this system was. The case against civil unions has yet to be made. Until it's made, this country won't widely support gay marriage. As a start, an argument should be presented as a corollary of "separate but equal".

Oh, and if you think that targeting the black community is your path to victory here, you'll be rudely awakened. Gay marriage was soundly defeated in, for example, Florida by a 62 to 38 percentage vote, and they don't even have gay marriage there yet.

[Ms. Toad]

311. To be separate but equal, they must first be equal

and they are not. Civil unions exist within the boundaries of the state that created them ONLY. No federal rights, no inter-state rights, no international rights.

[endthewar]

326. But the problem is that most Americans don't know this

I think the gay marriage movement would get more support if they found better ways to illustrate the differences between civil unions and gay marriage.

[Ioo]

314. 62 to 38 means it won my 2 points... need 60 in FL for this to pass... So I blame that 2% on Dems

[Exilednight]

270. You might want to revise your comments .........

I am of the opinion that government should not recognize "marriage" and that should be left up to each individual church, and that if anyone in this country wants a life-partner, you should enter into a civil union - no matter who the two people be, male+female, male+male, female+female. Believe it, or not, there are still private organizations where African-Americans, Jews, and women.

Think about this for a second, we have an African-American elected to the highest office in the land, and there are groups, country-clubs, and organizations he is prevented from joining due to the color of his skin.

Second, the GLBT community needs to reel in their personal emotions, and look for a community leader that has the ability to be vocal, and sane. This is a lesson that can be taken from African-American community. Martin Luther King Jr. knew that he would never get anywhere if he began a speech with "fuck you" - "I have a dream" seemed to have worked wonders.

Sometimes, a person fighting for a cause is their own worst enemy.

Personally, I am not gay, but have several gay and lesbian friends, and we do not always agree, but if you're capable of rational discussion - then I am more than willing to listen to you, but if you start out by saying "fuck you", end of conversation because the rest of what you have to say is irrelevant.

[endthewar]

278. WOW!

Great post! :hi:

I also agree with you about marriage. I think that the government should legally only recognize civil unions and consider all marriages to be civil unions. Seems like it would solve these differences without causing too much trouble. Having government recognize marriage seems like an intrusion on the separation of church vs. state to me.

[Ms. Toad]

312. Marriage is a state, federal, and international legal status.

The interrelationship between these individual political subdivisions with respect to marriage took decades to work out as it relates to recognition of each other's marriages, ability to terminate a marriage entered into in another jurisdiction, inheritance, parental rights, child custody, etc. To create a separate legal status of civil union would require legislative action in each of the 50 states, not only to create the status but to amend each statute which references marriage or marriage derived terms (wife, husband, etc.). In addition each of the court decisions interpreting marriage would need to be relitigated with respect to civil unions - at the cost of the individual couples as they individually encounter legal quirks not yet relitigated.

In addition, the cross-political sub-division recognition would need to be re-litigated (both inter-state and inter-national).

From a practical standpoint, as well as a conservation of financial and legal resources, creating a new legal status to avoid using a word that has been incorporated by the religious right as their private domain is - frankly - a dumb idea. They don't own marriage any more than they own "family" or "morals" and requiring same gender couples to create a whole new set of state, federal, and international laws in deference to this false claim of ownership is unfair and impractical.

Sacramental marriage is a separate entity from the legal status of marriage. If it is requested by the religious entity and the couple AND if the couple meets the preconditions for a legal marriage, a sacramental marriage can be granted legal recognition. If it is granted legal recognition, that recognition entitles the couple to the thousands of legal rights and responsibilities associated with marriage. Describing legal recognition of marriage as an intrusion on religion is a recent (and completely false) right wing frame, I was shocked when I first started hearing my friends and supporters express concern that the state might intrude on sacramental marriages in 2002-2004 when they finally got it through their thick skulls that religion was not constitutionally permitted to control the legal status of marriages, and they needed to find a way to gain support of people who believed in the separation of church and state.

It is a completely false frame if you think about it in the context of other marriages. How many Catholic priests have been forced to marry couples who are not members of their faith? How many Catholic priests have been forced to marry a couple which included one member who was legally divorced (from his/her first Catholic marriage) but which had not had that marriage annulled. Neither of these couples would be eligible for a sacramental marriage in the Catholic church - but both are eligible to be legally married. The law does not require the church to marry them. If it chooses to do so, that marriage may be recorded and legally recognized by the state.

The same would be true of same gender marriages. If a faith community chooses not to marry same gender couples, it would no more be required to do so than faith communities are currently required to marry any eligible mixed gender couple who walks through their doors now. If a faith community chooses to marry same gender couples, those marriages would be eligible for legal recognition in the same way (and using the same procedures) as mixed gender sacramental marriages are currently recognized.

[Occam Bandage]

119. "Judicial activism?" Are you kidding me?

I'm saying that we should identify and target a pro-bigotry Democratic bloc, and you respond by babbling about activist judges? And you say I need reading comprehension skills? Jesus, I don't know where to begin.

[endthewar]

126. Judicial activism, judicial decisions, call it what you like, it's still the same result

You're reading too much into the connotation of the term. Brown v. Board of Education was judicial activism as well. It's when the courts decide on social issues. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion. The problem you run into is when those judicial decisions aren't supported by the majority of voters. That's why the change needs to come from the legislative branch instead of depending on the judicial branch.

You can close your mind off to this and continue living in your bubble if you so chose. If you do, you'll be back here 4 years from now posting in a new thread lamenting the lack of progress for the gay marriage movement in California. As a voter in Massachusetts, the legislature's feet here was held to the fire and that's why gay marriage is legal where I live but just voted down in California.

[Occam Bandage]

129. I have no idea why you're talking about judicial activism when I was talking about

the disposition of a particular voting bloc. Saying "no it needs to be done by legislators" does not really address my complaint, which was entirely about the same voters who elect those legislators. Your talk of "judicial activism" and "your bubble" are bizarre and confusing.

[endthewar]

132. Well, do you just want to dwell on this defeat

or think about how to change the future for the better? I apologize now, since it's clear that you only want to dwell on defeat and not try to move this country forward. Pardon me as I step out of your way trying to keep the gay marriage movement where it's at instead of thinking about where it should go. :eyes:

[Neecy]

171. "dwell on this defeat"

Well, fucking excuse us for grieving over this cannonball of hatred that was shot over our bow last night.

If someone took away *your* right to marry, don't you think you'd "dwell on the defeat" for more than a couple of hours?

Fuck you.

[endthewar]

255. Same to you

Fuck you too!

Yay! I'm just as immature as you! :bounce:

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

237. Wait, so discussing what went wrong the day after is "dwelling on defeat?"

And what does that have to do with judicial activism, and what does judicial activism have to do with voter blocs? You're all over the place here. It's like you want to argue, but can't think of a consistent point to argue from.

[endthewar]

258. Never said that. However, yelling at someone for merely pointing out a potential future path

is pure unadulterated ignorance.

[endthewar]

133. Also, do you have stats on how black men voted on this proposition?

I read it and it only had black women. Your post clearly linked to the overall turnout in the black community, so I'm sure that you must have seen a stat on how black men voted on this issue before making your sweeping generalization about all blacks. Also, please provide a link to the increased turnout of blacks in California. :hi:

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

236. Yes. The CNN exit poll has black women and all black voters.

If for some reason you believed that black men were on average not nearly as homophobic as black women, then you could easily calculate the difference. You could also look at the voter ethnic proportions and compare it to 2004 and 2000, and see that black turnout was indeed up.

I'm not sure why you're asking for information that is easily available in a document you claim to have read.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

124. No, the real problem is you are a hypocrite

[endthewar]

127. Say what you like, but did the proposition pass or fail?

It is true ignorance to think that one can continue doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. The gay marriage movement in California needs to refocus its efforts on the legislative branch and not the judicial branch. That's what happened in Massachusetts where I live and that's why gay marriage is not in jeopardy here.

The truth can be brutal.

[petronius]

155. At this point, in CA at least, the legislative branch is out of the picture

The only available pathways are a federal court decision or a new amendment approved by the voters...

[endthewar]

260. And why is the legislative branch out of the picture?

The anti-gay marriage people will continue putting this on the ballot as long as the legislative route is not pursued. This doesn't seem like a good movement strategy to me.

In Massachusetts, people held the legislature's feet to the fire. That's part of the reason why gay marriage is legal here in MA still.

[petronius]

272. Because Prop 8 was an amendment to the state constitution

The legislature has to treat the constitution as the highest law, and when there is a contradiction between legislative act and the constitution, it's the legislature that has to change. Therefore, the legislature can't pass any laws recognizing gay marriage until the constitution is fixed...

[Realityhack]

317. Endthewar has repeatedly shown an inability to understand that concept. n/t

[dsc]

163. The CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE passed a marriage bill

which was vetoed by the GOVERNOR on the grounds the COURTS should decide the issue. They did just that.

[No Elephants]

181. Legally, you are just wrong. The judicial branch gets to interpret what "equal rights" in the Con-

stitituion means. California law then enabled this to get into the hands of the voters. But that does not mean the California Supreme Court did anything wrong. "Judicial activism" is a shibboleth of the RW. So sad to see it here. And the people of California should sure as hell have done the moral thing instead of voting for hate.

[endthewar]

261. And yet the ban on gay marriage passed

If you depend on just the judicial branch to enact social justice in California, you will come away disappointed more often than not. This should be a learning lesson, not a lesson to quickly forget.

[Realityhack]

191. You clearly do not understand how the CA constitution works. Also this is not free republic. n/t

[endthewar]

263. And your methodology to get gay marriage in California failed

whereas holding the legislature's feet to the fire in Massachusetts was successful. I'll step aside and let you wallow in your ignorance in your own little bubble. You're probably still scratching your head wondering how another human being in California could disagree with you on a social issue. As long as that is the case, you'll be back here 4 years from not posting in a new thread lamenting the ban on gay marriage in California yet again. :eyes:

[Sirveri]

292. The problem in CA is the proposition system.

Any bigoted retard can get enough votes to put something up for the vote. Our proposition system is BROKEN and needs to be ABOLISHED. The proposition system is why we have seen abortion votes three consecutive times. They just keep trying to slip garbage past us. This time it worked because they dumped a bucketfull of money at it. It should not have even BEEN on the ballot in the first place. Of course we could also put a measure on the ballot over turning it. But it just leads to incessant back and forth garbage.

[Realityhack]

313. I am from MA jackass.

The state constitutions are different so different strategies are required. The legislature in CA isn't going to overturn the voters... you do get that right?

[Creideiki]

327. That's right. It's the legislature's responsibility. Oh, wait.

The legislature passed a gay marriage bill TWICE! And Arnold vetoed it, probably to placate rolls of human toilet paper like you (yes, I called you an asswipe--go ahead and report this post), and said that it shouldn't be legislated, but decided by the court.

That's right, toilet paper, your skid mark is showing.

How about if your damned rapture comes today, because I'm sick of sharing the world with you. Then you can go to Jesus and tell him how proud you were that you kicked gay people in the nuts one last time.

[Leopolds Ghost]

184. Occam: "70% of blacks constitute the most reliable pro-bigotry vote in California"

What do you feel about blacks who support FISA, Occam?

Or any of the other justice issues white SOCIAL progressives have ignored (FISA)
and thrown under the bus?

I don't see a coherent progressive movement on either side.

[vaberella]

273. The question is...without the Black vote would the bill have passed or not

I see a lot of blame put on the AA community in Cali, and of course there is a level of homophobia in the community. However, I don't understand how the blame or the target of any of this conversation is targeted towards AA's. You'd think people would do the math. What is the demographic of Blacks in the community and would the vote have changed either way?

Further more, I'm disgusted that this has turned into a discussion on who voted for what. I'll say this, people should be fuckin' protesting the Government who are making a right that was instilled as a right within California as an optional choice. That's what upsets me and I'm surprised so many people are willing to target blame. Blame should be put solely on this bigotted GOVERNMENT system, not on the people who voted.


I live in NYC and we had proposition 1. In my community, Harlem and predomninantly black, most people did not even vote on proposition 1 since it's optional. So I'd really like to know howh the numbers were tabluated for this and yet I'm getting people automatically throwing blame with asymetrical information.

[Realityhack]

315. Huh?

I understand what you are saying about blaming individual groups and I agree. Even with one group being disproportionately bigoted the measure could have been defeated if it weren't for so many people in other larger demographics.
I think the original point was regarding the surprise at seeing this particular demographic being the highest percentage for the amendment. I can see why people where surprised at (and disappointed by) that even if it would not have single handedly changed the outcome.

I am a bit confused by this though:

...people should be fuckin' protesting the Government who are making a right that was instilled as a right within California as an optional choice. ... Blame should be put solely on this bigotted GOVERNMENT system, not on the people who voted.

Um... how so? In what way is the CA government responsible for a ballot measure? This was the fault of the CA voters not their elected officials.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. dont hold blacks to a lower standard than you do whites. thats real racism.

[endthewar]

143. blacks = black women

Hmmm...sounds like an over-generalization to me. Please provide me a link to the exit polls for black men on prop 8. I'm sure you must have saw them before trying to smear them. :hi:

*crickets*

[La Lioness Priyanka]

146. look at post 69. not saying this purely the fault of african americans, but dont cut people slack

for voting against equality in any demographic

[endthewar]

148. Last I checked, the Democratic Party's platform doesn't support gay marriage

Perhaps those voters believe there's nothing wrong with civil unions? Don't blame voters because of their beliefs. Those are the people whose minds you need to change if you expect this kind of proposition to be defeated. I live in MA, but the media coverage I saw made it seem like opponents to gay marriage were much more organized and fighting more vigorously for their cause. That's why gay marriage was voted down.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. i do blame people for being bigots.

[endthewar]

152. The gay marriage movement hasn't made a convincing enough argument against civil unions.

That's why they failed on this proposition. Sure it might help you to demonize people because of how they voted, but how does that further the cause of gay marriage in CA? The bottom line is the anti-gay marriage movement in that area was much better organized and was more able to get their opinions out.

I never thought about demonizing white people because they voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004 (as well as McCain in 2008). It just doesn't make sense and it'll most likely alienate voters you will need to appeal to later.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

153. i am not demonizing black people. i am demonizing bigots regardless of color.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

154. Dumbest thing ever said on DU: "Don't blame voters because of their beliefs."

[endthewar]

264. And people like you are shocked that gay marriage is still illegal in most states.

A fire alarm engine couldn't wake you up from your ignorance. If gay marriage is going to pass in California, you're going to have to change some of those minds. You can't divide up the vote when the other side has the bigger slice.

[LibraLiz1973]

161. Right on Lioness.

Anyone who voted for this is WRONG- no matter the color of their skin.

[Raineyb]

201. Then we should be saying that. Unfortunately that 's not how the argument is being framed. n/t

Regards

[ccharles000]

172. I agree

[Binka]

166. "I'm sure you must have saw them" My Seven Year Old Laughed At This

WTF is English your second language? Take your smiley faces and crickets and shove them. You clearly are an ASSHOLE.

Still pissed Obama won? HAHAHAHAHA

[Leopolds Ghost]

187. I'll be impressed when y'all notice they threw civil liberties (FISA) and the New Deal under the bus

too.

Of course Occam came out and said FISA was "worth sacrificing", presumably gay marriage is not.

[TommyO]

156. For a group that has been the target of discrimination

for them to do the same to another group of people is unconscionable.

[Chovexani]

159. You know what? Fuck you.

I'm a queer black woman, and you are full of shit. No one is trying to blame blacks for the world's problems.

No, black folks are not solely to blame--there are a lot of good straight allies in the black community who fought hard against this, and black homophobia is not somehow worse than white homophobia (which is an attitude I'm so fucking sick of in the larger LGBT community). And let's not forget the KKK Mormon "church" pouring millions into it.

But don't fucking pretend black homophobia doesn't exist. Let's not pretend that as much as individual families may tolerate us, when the subject comes to giving us the same rights as straights we know where it comes down.

[comrade snarky]

175. Well Said (nt)

[Realityhack]

188. Well said. n/t

[endthewar]

265. Response in kind:

Fuck you back. :evilgrin:

:eyes:

[Ioo]

322. Well said...

I am glad to see that there are queer black woman like who. I can not even pretend to relate to layer of issues you must deal with. I support you if you need it, but you sound like you do not need it.

[Yes We Did]

231. That's Right... Blame The Blacks...

Next thing you'll be saying "send them back to Africa"

Forget all those white people who voted for it... blame the blacks. :puke:

[endthewar]

266. Agreed. It's just like blaming the blacks for the worldwide economic crisis.

I swear, sometimes it seems like some of these DUers have been listening to a little too much Rush Limbaugh.

[coffeenap]

4. We will work our asses off to change it--this is the

beginning, not the end! Please don't despair--we have only begun to fight for change!

[ej510]

9. This is why we have to get religion out of government!

[Sebastian Doyle]

81. Or at the very least, out of state religion

I don't believe ANY out of state money (religious or otherwise) should be funding ballot measure campaigns, for or against. It's no secret that this one was bankrolled straight outa Salt Lake City.

[Raineyb]

107. On this we agree n/t

Regards

[Mad_Dem_X]

11. I totally agree - we will fight to overturn this!

This is the one dark spot in a day full of sunshine. But I have every confidence that we will put things right for our GLBT brothers and sisters.

[Billy Burnett]

19. "we will put things right for our GLBT brothers and sisters"

Mad_Dem_X, let's put this right for ALL OF US! We should be as one.

[Ioo]

14. I am sorry, I just do not see how... I do not think Obama will spend an oz

of political capital towards the issue. I am not sure what the next steps are, but I am very depressed.

[endthewar]

130. As long as it's not in the Democratic Party's platform, the Dem Party will ignore it

It's really that plain and simple.

[No Elephants]

185. He will appoint liberal judges to the SCOTUS. That's where this needs to go. The Pres. can do

squat on his lonesome, except as to federal employees, the military, etc. And Congress is not going to touch the DOMA either. It has to be up to the SCOTUS.

[nichomachus]

5. What happened was

Obama brought out African American voters in huge numbers. African Americans voted mostly for anti-gay amendments. African American women, especially, voted overwhelmingly to make gays second-class citizens.

I really want to be happy for African Americans over Obama's victory. I am having a very hard time with that, knowing that they threw me under the bus.

[cameozalaznick]

16. A gay president. Now THAT would be historic.

Don't think I'll see it in my lifetime. So for all this talk about, "you can be anything, even president of U.S." is just a bunch of bullshit if you're LGBT.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. Forget about President

the Party crawls with reiligionist homophobes at every level. Rare is the district where a GLBT candidate could even get on the ballot, much less win. This bigotry harms our Party by keeping talent out of the loop.

[MilesColtrane]

199. A latino lesbian just got reelected as Sheriff of Dallas County.

Dallas, TEXAS...

If that's not one sign of hope, I don't know what is.

Sure it's not happening fast enough, but a change is going to come. Bigots are always on the wrong side of history.

[Maestro]

218. She actually won re-election.

This is her second term.

[MilesColtrane]

232. That's why I wrote reelected.

:hi:

[Maestro]

328. Oops, sorry my bad.

Need better glasses. :shrug: :hi:

[MilesColtrane]

329. No prob.

Sometimes I wish I had an editor to check my work.

Too lazy to do it myself all the time...

[Marrah_G]

20. Ouch-

:hug:

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

21. I am a black woman with a gay black father. And I having been working hard with my community

to stomp homophobia in the black community. Many of us have. Please don't lump all African Americans together. A good number of us stand together with our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. But there is much work to be done.

I don't understand homophobia and never have. It makes me ill what happened yesterday. And of course the M$M is salivating over the results as proof that (1) America is a 'center-right' country, and that (2) America is still divided.

BTW, I was pleased to see that at least anti-choice measures were soundly defeated in Colorado.

[Ioo]

22. Thank you love, we need the help

[Billy Burnett]

25. Thank you.

Was too upset at the black/white comments to formulate as polite a response. :hug:

[gaspee]

52. As someone on the inside

How do we stop the homophobia in the black community? To me, it seems to come from the churches - I don't know why black folk are overwhelmingly christian. My Native American relatives call it the religion of genocide and slavery and they say it Kind of jokingly but kind of not.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

56. It is definitely the churches and popular culture. The hyper-masculinity in certain hip-hop lyrics,

for example...

The black community is not open and frank about sex and sexuality. There's still a large stigma on HIV-AIDS and despite the fact that African Americans are significantly impacted by the disease, the black church and community has not done enough to address HIV-AIDS, sexuality, and sexual orientation. I think much of this is explained by the legacy of slavery. It's too difficult really to explain fully in this short message.

[nichomachus]

83. Black churches are also partly responsible for the prevalence of AIDS and HIV in the black community

I worked on AIDS issues in the early 1980s. We tried to do outreach in the black community to educate African Americans on what we knew about the disease at the time and to promote safe sex practices.

We were actively blocked -- and even threatened -- by the African American clergy. They claimed that there were no black homosexuals and did not want the members of their community to get safe-sex education. By the time they admitted that AIDS was a problem for their community, AIDS had taken a very strong foothold.

[Leopolds Ghost]

189. Let me guess, you are white, and you have a "hard time" feeling for blacks.

Do you live in a gentrifying area?

[nichomachus]

196. I have

[genna]

23. As an AA woman where are your numbers? You're saying we are solely responsible?

I'm assuming Prop 8 is in California. What percentage of the vote are AA in CA?


As far as blame is concerned, tell me how many groups have actually supported gay marriage outside of the GLBT community (BTW, I was convinced during the primaries that equal rights aren't equal until marriage is open to all)?


The desire to blame black people, especially black women, reminds me of how the housing crisis is minority people's fault. How long does it take before we aren't blamed for the fall of civilization itself?


Seriously, you are out of line.

[Billy Burnett]

29. It's much more than a black/white or a GLBT issue.

It's about embracing freedom and equality. Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It's about all of us.

[Ioo]

42. Exit Poll : 74% AA W "Yes" / AA as a whole 70% "Yes"

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

[Raineyb]

55. Well said!

The OP is exceedingly out of line. Obama hasn't even been President-Elect for a full day and already we've got people looking to divide rather than come together for solutions. The OP sounds as bad as these ignorant McLame supporters on C-Span talking about Obama not being a real citizen.

Regards

[progressoid]

68. According to this exit poll, 74% of Black Women supported the ban

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p1

70% of all African American voters (male and female) supported the ban.

But AA represent only 10% of the electorate.

[onefreespiritedchick]

225. It looks to me according to the age groups

provided in that data, we're talking about older black women, who to be honest would very little insight into the Gay community. It is more of a generational thing if anything else.

[NashVegas]

79. Yeah. All 6%

:sarcasm:

It's hard to dispute the numbers within that very small percentage, but to lay the blame on AA women as somehow being the tipping point is a load of crap. That said, if more black men were open about being on the down low, that number would probably be different.

[endthewar]

100. As a fellow AA man:

the right-wingers blamed the worldwide economic crisis on inner-city, poor, black families, so it's no surprise that the liberals try to blame a liberal proposition on blacks as well. I never knew blacks were the supreme deciders in this country. :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. The Numbers Were 70-30 Among AA's.

That's by far the biggest split of any other category, most of which were pretty close to 50-50.

I'm surprised by that, and disappointed.

[endthewar]

112. It says "NA" besides black men. But I'm glad that you lump all blacks together.

After all, they obviously think alike. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

137. I Did No Such Thing.

I just gave the AA numbers.

Get a grip.

[bluedawg12]

213. It says: black men were 4% of voters and their vote was N/A

why is that?

It also says: Black Women (6%)of voters and 75% in favor of P8. Why is that?

The poll says African-American voters account for (10%) and voted 70% in favor of P8? Why is that?

[JVS]

216. Doing the math between the black women and AA total stats, we can extrapolate that black men voted..

62.5% in favor of p8 and 37.5% against.

On edit: I thought I'd point this out because there seems to be contention around the listing of stats for black men as not available.

[bluedawg12]

223. Extrapolate this: Democrats voted 36% for Prop 8

and 70% of AA women voted for Prop8.

Why is that?

[endthewar]

267. Don't forget the +/- of 8 points on this stat

margin of error is exclusively a function of the number of people polled. The margin of error is much larger here since blacks make up a much smaller percentage of the total polling group. :hi:

[wellst0nev0ter]

28. Well, On Behalf Of My Fundyclown Black Sister Studying In Palo Alto

I apologize. Black folks need to get over that fear of emasculation instilled by our history in this country.

[ampad]

31. Excuse me?

Ummm yes those people that came out and voted against your rights are assholes. I do not care what color they are they are assholes. I have to say those black women who voted for that prop should be ashamed of themselves. I mean how ironic considering who they were voting for. I'm very sorry for the gay community. It pisses me off to no end. I have this conversation at least once a week on a black forum that I frequent. It is sick and out of all the people in this country you would think that black women would be the first group of people to understand how it feels to be discriminated against. With that said not all of us are ignorant. As a black woman I feel much shame and disappointment towards my fellow African Americans for being so freaking ignorant. I also feel sadness because unfortunately I know how gay people might feel. I would hope that you and the gay community as a whole understand that we are not all like that. It is the religious nuts and there is a reason some black people hold on to their religion as they do. That is no excuse but it is the truth.

[LiberteToujours]

186. Thank you

Thank you for this well-written post, I do appreciate it. It is nice to hear words like this because I think they help heal the tensions and the desire to "blame" the black community for this outcome, to know that there are many black people who do not feel this way and are working for change. I am disappointed in the passing of proposition 8, but I will continue to support equal rights for gay people and I am elated to have Barack Obama as president.

[Kajsa]

325. Thank you, Ampad.

Very well stated!

:hug:

[Beacool]

38. I'm sorry to hear that.

I didn't know that AAs as a group were opposed to gay marriage.

Do not despair, we'll all fight hard to reverse it. I have many gay friends and some have a much longer lasting relationship with their partners than plenty of straight couples that I know. Why shouldn't they be allowed to marry?

[Raineyb]

46. Gee that didn't take long

Blame black folk for the proposition passing because it's not like California has any right wing fundies getting funding from the Mormons next door. Oh wait....

Regards

[nichomachus]

87. No one said it was just one group

All the haters and religious bigots joined forces on this one

[Raineyb]

113. Really? Did you read what you wrote? I did. n/t

Regards

[LibraLiz1973]

164. For years it has been acceptable to say that White America wouldn't vote for an AA

Now that we CLEARLY see that AA are not for LGBT rights, it is NOT ok to talk about it?

Talking about it is the only way anything will ever really change.

[Raineyb]

167. Did I say it wasn't?

I said no such thing. But I did point out a large amount of scapegoating of black people.

Regards

[leeann1317]

80. We can't start turning on ourselves now. The Rethugs will try to turn gay Democrats and

African-American Democrats against each other. Don't let them!

[endthewar]

84. Ah yes, let the scapegoating begin

:eyes:

[nichomachus]

88. Check back with me when someone declares you a second-class citizen

and takes your rights away.

See how you roll your fucking eyes then

[endthewar]

93. I didn't take any of your right away

and I'm a voter in Massachusetts. Your over-generalization was deplorable, obtuse, and despicable.

Perhaps you should have taken issue with the Democratic Party's platform on gay marriage? Last I checked, it doesn't support it. Obama doesn't support it either.

Also, this is just more proof that Obama's words from that 2001 radio interview are very true. People should stop depending on the judicial branch as the final arbiter of social justice and instead lobby and depend on the legislative branch, which is the branch which has the final say on these issues. If you can get gay marriage passed through the legislative branch, that would be the end of story. Lawsuits might make you temporarily feel good about a social issue, but getting a bill passed through your state legislature is where true change lies.

[nichomachus]

101. Never said you did

stop twisting my words. And, for the record, I didn't "scapegoat" anyone. I just explained the dynamics of election demographics. If you don't like that -- well, I can't do anything about that.

And your argument about the legislation is fatuous. What the Prop Hate people did was amend the constitution of the state that would prevent the legislature from passing any legislation allowing same-sex marriage. That's why it's so despicable.

[endthewar]

105. Are civil unions still allowed in California?

If so, what are the most important specific legal differences between civil unions and gay marriage? Is it just symbolic, or are there severe legal consequences? :shrug:

Oh, my earlier comment still stands. If you depend on judicial activism for social change, you will be disappointed in the end.

[Zhade]

289. Seems like this is the time to remind you...

"Democratic Underground DOES NOT permit homophobic bigotry and DOES NOT welcome members who oppose equal rights for all." - Skinner

That includes marriage. Skinner's own words.

[ronnykmarshall]

298. We've never had and do not have civil unions.

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nini]

125. Don't generalize like that

really.. I'm getting sick of seeing the black community taking all the heat on this.

How about black people knowing what it's like to be discriminated against and would never to vote to do that to others?

It was a wide range vote of stupidity from those who buy the sacred marriage crap of the religious folks.

African Americans didn't throw you under the bus - the religious zealots and those who bought the marriage being taught in schools crap did.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. The other issue is the increasing influence of the latino vote.

They vote Democrat, but they are also predominately practicing Catholics.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

233. So now it's black vs. gay?

Way to keep propagating that wedge.

To the blacks who voted for prop 8: shame on you for believing any of the nonsense about the evils of gay marriage. To the gay people now attempting to vilify African-Americans: shame on you for continuing to propagate this wedge between two communities that have no reason to vote against the other.

[Lerkfish]

6. there was no such referendum in Ohio, thank god.

but I would have voted for our GLBT brethren and sistren, absolutely.

I would not say just "obama voters" that implies all.

[Ms. Toad]

310. That's because the marriage discrimination amendment

passed by a 2-1 margin in 2004 in Ohio. Although I am sure they would love to deprive us of our rights twice, it isn't really practical. After working my tail off for Kerry (and only working behind the scenes against Issue One to avoid undoing whatever good my door to door canvassing was doing by mixing messages), I came here and was dumped on by fellow DU-ers who felt the need to blame me and the GLBT community for losing the election.

I don't see the massive blame this year - but then, again, we won this year. The same pain and betrayal I felt in 2004, however, are being felt by the victims hatred and fear again this year.

[gypsylud]

7. Horrible! I feel so sorry about it.

California, sometimes a progressive leader. Sometimes a backwater.
They'll see the light.

[kenfrequed]

76. Hmm

It is the state that gave us Reagan and Nixon.

[grace0418]

8. This makes me sick. We have so much to celebrate but ignorance still won some battles.

It makes me especially sick in California.

[SalviaBlue]

10. I am very disappointed in CA

The churches were very organized and put alot of money and manpower into passing 8. I can't believe how many children I saw on street corners waving Yes on 8 signs. This was organized by church groups. If they want to organize politically, they should pay taxes.

[ikojo]

12. Many on this board will not like this but I think the large

Hispanic and Black turnout in support of Barack Obama hurt the gay marriage and gay adoption issues. Both of those communities tend to be VERY conservative on the homosexual issue and many probably voted accordingly.

Anti affirmative action ballot initiatives passed in several states as well. Ward Connerly tried to get such an issue on the MO ballot but he did not succeed (it would have passed had it been on the ballot).

[Jennicut]

15. That sucks. I was hoping it would not pass.

Maybe one day Gay Marriage will be more acceptable. :( I'm sorry. Its legal here in CT now though.

[Marrah_G]

17. I'm so sorry this happened.

Perhaps someday our politicians will grow a spine and stand up for ALL rights.

[barack the house]

18. It's a religious thing and there is lot of chaning hearts and minds to do Latin American dems are >

very Catholic. We even say Samuel L Jackson come out against prop 8 African Americans know the descrimination and I would bet most voted it down. It's more religion being the enemy than Democrats as a collective and 10 percent isn't a large chunk, don't discredit the mass republican vote on that proposal.

[Atman]

24. Supreme Court, here we come. These bans cannot stand.

A state cannot ban a right which is granted under the Constitution. They can try, and they have tried. It will force a Supreme Court review, and I think it's still safe that they'd have to vote on the side of "equal rights." Especially now that we have a black president.

.

[Ioo]

26. We just need to wait, and make sure we will win in the SCOTUS

and sadly the 2 most likely to leave are on the left anyway, so we need 3 or so to leave before I think it is safe to put this before the SCOTUS

[No Elephants]

183. You do not want to ask this SCOTUS. Just pray that Justice Stevens stays alive until the end of

January, so that Obama gets to appoint his replacement. And pray thata conservative judge wants to retire after this term.

[Freddie Stubbs]

283. Are you optimistic that that Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito, or Kennedy would side with you?

Without one of them, you may get a Supreme Court decision which sets the gay rights movement back for decades.

[jpljr77]

27. And this, to me, was the biggest failure of the Obama (and Democrats in general) campaign

Obama did not help the Prop 8 matter at all, in fact he gave the other side ammunition for ads. He, and other Dems, thought only of themselves in distancing from gay marriage rather than embracing everyone.

With that said, I know he had to do it, and I am over the moon that he won. But Dems miscalculated on this one, assuming an easy defeat of the Prop while not being individually saddled with supporting gay marriage. It was a very, very costly mistake.

[Ioo]

32. Why should he, he does not support gays on this issue... I have been saying all this time..

Here is Obama to me in a nutshell, HE WILL NOT HELP US, BUT HE WILL NOT HURT US. HE PASSES IT OFF TO THE STATES, and is the state says it is okay to shoot gays in the head, I think he would be disappointing, but unwilling to spend ANY political capital on the issue.

[Arkansas Granny]

30. May I ask why Arkansas is "almost not a state"? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

[Ioo]

35. Meaning that it was never a question on if it would pass...

I lived in Texaskana for a long time, so I know it is not even an issue on if it would pass or not. And to be honest AR is not really the "tone setter" for the rest of the nation. CA and FL are...

[gatorboy]

271. That still doesn't answer the "almost not a state" comment.

[Name removed]

256. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peacetrain]

280. I did not understand that one either? Had me confused..

Is Arkansas a territory? ;) Just kidding, this is off thread..but I swear one of my favorite places in the world is Eureka Springs. It has been years since I have been there, but such a beautiful little town in the mountains..and that hotel on the hill.. wowo!!!

[terrya]

33. Last night set marriage equality back a decade.

At least.

Goddammit. :cry:

[Billy Burnett]

36. Equality. Period.

:hug:

[AldebTX]

34. The Passing of Prop 8 Has Me A Bit Down Today As Well

I am from a Red State and my partner of 17 years is a California transplant here. Rather naively on my part I have always looked to California as being a liberal bastion that always finds a way to do the right thing. I had little doubt that Prop 8 would fail and we gave money to the No on 8 campaign.

The real thing that saddens me is that this proposition REMOVED a right that already existed and enshrines it in the state constitution. I feel for all those couples that married and this morning wake up and see that fact has evaporated.

I tell myself they might take away the right to marry but they can't take away the love and feelings we share. As my partner told his mom in California...gay people are not going away or back into the closets. We'll be back.

[populistdriven]

37. example

[WhollyHeretic]

39. I'm sick about it this morning.

bigotry across the country :cry: The only minor victory for gay rights was the constitutional convention being voted down here in Connecticut.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

40. What happened in California (of all places) was WRONG WRONG WRONG

As much as I love Obama/Biden and what they stand for, I too am very pissed off too at the "mealy mouthed" support of the GLBT community by them and (most) other Democrats when it comes to the issue of same-sex marriage and even more pissed off at the fact that anybody's fundamental human rights can even be put to a vote (a simple majority vote at that). I don't even understand how a state, whose constitution was recently legally construed to prohibit continued denial of the right to same-sex marriage, can so easily add an amendment to it which directly contradicts it. I just simply don't understand how a majority of people can say that they support a nondescript "civil union" structure for GLBT individuals seeking committed relationships that offers all of the same benefits and accouterments of marriage but can't, for one second, allow committed relationships between members of the same sex to EVER be referred to as "same-sex marriage" as though the word, "marriage", has some kind of special significance that can ONLY be understood and allowed within the exclusive context of heterosexual relationships. It's stupid and just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Stuff like this just makes me want to :banghead: and then :puke:

[Zodiak]

43. If I were gay, I would simply leave the state

I know moving is expensive and not easy to do, but if I had the resources and the job waiting for me, I'd leave. Even if it took a couple of years of planning to effect it.

States may not realize this, but a good proportion of their tax dollars and intellectual capital comes from the gay community.

They'll realize it when the gay community packs up and leaves, and takes all of the benefits to society that they bring with them.

If a state wants to become an ignorant backwater, might as well leave them to it. Other states are no that way, and will benefit greatly from opening their arms.

[Neshanic]

50. OK, can I sleep on your couch? I have a dog.

[Zodiak]

70. Sure, but I have a cat, I play bass constantly, and I smoke like a fiend.

All kidding aside, without consequences, other states will feel it is okay to do the same.

When Ohio tried this crap, the gay community in the State University system threatened to leave the state....and Ohio then quickly passed a law making an exception to same-sex couples in the University system.

They want all of benefits of having you there, but still deny you full rights. Time to take away the carrot.

[Neshanic]

73. I think the Federal Gov willbe taking this carrot from now on I hope.

Federal consequences for bad behavior by states. The big converstation about this is coming.

[Zodiak]

158. Good, and it should.

I sincerely hope that a fight can be won in the courts.....this is not America until EVERYONE is awarded equal protection.

People will this far more acutely when it hurts their pocketbook.

[neomonkey]

44. Prop 8 here in the land of liberal fundies

Is the only way I can explain it.
It was a badly written initiave for one thing. Yes really meant no, that's the recipe for disaster, always. You're basically counting on the fact that the electorate will show some literacy skills.

I personally witnessed 2 cases where I heard of people voting in a manner contrary to what the intended only because they misunderstood the wording of the ballot. Not good.

Obama winning, Prop 8 "winning"...I feel like I've won a Ferrari but bet saddled with having to pay the insurance and gas bills myself.

[AlCzervik]

45. i don't understand how we could do the right thing on 4 but not on 8, once i saw 4

was failing i figured the same voters would vote no on 8.

[Irishonly]

57. I am sick about it

I went to the SOS page when I first got up this morning because the news said not all of the votes had been counted. LA county voted yes on 8 and the counties left lean republican with a lot of wing nuts.

I have not heard if it will be challenged in the courts. I cannot believe the Constitution could be changed with a simple majority. I am sputtering. We have now put our gay brothers and sisters under the bus and are probably risking the health of young girls.

[texasleo]

47. At the hands of black Dems.

Let's not sugarcoat anything.

[Raineyb]

62. You're out of line.

As per usual when shit goes badly black people are the first ones to get the blame for it. The same way Obama didn't get the nomination nor win the general election solely because of black people they damn sure weren't solely responsible for the passing of Prop 8 in California.

However, this type of behavior is exactly why a lot of black people despite the numbers in which they vote for democrats are wary of the party. Things are so easy when things go folks way but as soon as there's a setback we're always the first ones to take the blame.

Thank you for behaving like the ass-clown Republicans I despise. I'd hate for Obama's election to cause me to forget to keep my guard up so the knife can be stuck in by so-called allies.

Regards

[Ioo]

69. Not So Sure be is WAY out of line - Exit Poll : 74% AA W "Yes" / AA as a whole 70% "Yes"

It is not great, but the exit polls bear our that the African Americans did throw a lot of the GLBT community under the bus... they came and voted Obama and Yes...

[Raineyb]

75. That prop didn't pass solely on the vote of black people

We may be a large portion of the Democratic electorate but we aren't a majority of this country and we don't make up a majority of the state yet the first group you turn to blame would be us. You sound just like those asshole Repukes who blame us for the collapse of the economy. You are equally out of line.

Regards

[Ioo]

77. I do not care, it lost... I was just saying that there is lots of info saying that AA did 7/10 to Y

It is not the point, the point is we lost... and It was not part of my OP and it not my beef....

[Raineyb]

116. It may not be part of your OP but is is part of the argument as brought up by many others

And I will not put up with it.

Regards

[kenfrequed]

78. Hmmph

The exit polls also had Franken leading Coleman by 7%+ here in Minnesota. Now we are in the begining stages of a recount.

Seriously I think there is probably a more positive pro-active way to address this issue than blaming African American voters. How about putting the blame where it belongs, on the conservative religious establishment that has spent decades in demonizing.

[thrift_store_angel]

160. Actually if I recall correctly

in the last few elections g/l/b/t people and our selfish desire to marry were blamed for everything going wrong.

[Raineyb]

168. Blaming black people has never gone out of style. n/t

Regards

[bluedawg12]

206. Nor has discriminating against gays, apparently. n/t

[Raineyb]

221. Apparently so is putting words in other people's mouths. n/t

Regards

[bluedawg12]

226. Nor are statements apropos of nothing. n/t

[Raineyb]

238. Neither is self defeating bullshit n/t

[bluedawg12]

246. Nor is being defeated by lack of unity. n/t

[Raineyb]

251. Scapegoating sure as hell won't foment any unity n/t

Regards

[bluedawg12]

276. Actions build unity - not rhetoric - people had the chance

to stand up yesterday, they didn't walk the walk.

[Raineyb]

281. Then I guess your bridgebuilding had a flaw in it n/t

Regards

[bluedawg12]

286. It worked fine, I worked to get Obama elected. He won.

my brothers and sisters in Cali lost, thought we were all crossing over the same muddy river together. Guess not.

[Zhade]

291. Hard to bridge-build with bigots.

NT!

[Raineyb]

308. The entire black community are not bigots

and considering the size of the population in relation to the size of the overall voting population they're taking an awful lot of heat which is not in proportion to the amount of damage they can do. Unless you really think 6% of the population is that powerful.

Who paid to have this proposition put on the ballot? Who paid for the onslaught of advertising? How many other people voted for the proposition? Now explain to me why it's only the black community that's taking heat for a bad vote?

Regards

[Sebastian Doyle]

90. I agree, let's not sugarcoat anything

You're a fucking racist. How's that?

[kwassa]

215. and black Dems are all of 13% of the electorate

meaning that the ones voting for Prop 8 could only be less than one-fifth the vote on that.

So being one-fifth of the vote makes them the perpetrators?

so much for your racist theory.

[Essene]

305. and nobody seems to care about your point =(

the elderly voted for it. latinos were evenly split.

yet we're blaming the black community because that's what the media focused on. :(

70-30 support among blacks in cali is sad and deserves attention for sure.

but there's a difference between calling out these problems and BLAMING blacks.

[NorthernSpy]

243. blacks are only 6 percent of California's population

They may be the group that you resent the most, but the fact is that over 90 percent of Yes votes were not cast by blacks.

[mystieus]

316. True.

[Symarip]

48. Fucking hell!

This heterosexual still wants to fight on. The real question now is, how do we fix this mess?

To the same sex couples out there, my heart goes out to you. Personally, I think they should just ban marriage all together since it's obviously rooted in religious practices, create universal civil unions, and keep the seperation of church and state. In a perfect world, I guess.

Get a helmet - it's time to fight.

[AzNick]

49. Hispanics are very anti-gay marriage

So that you know.

I know quite a few of them, one of my nieces is married to a Hispanic man, devout catholic, Spanish as a primary language, half of his family south of the border, and his entire side vote for Obama but also for Prop 102 over here in AZ.

I supposed a majority of the Hispanics voted democratic yesterday, but overall against gay marriage, when it was on the ballot.

They are social conservatives, but at least don't teach their kids that Obama will kill babies.

You need to acknowledge this component of the democratic vote, espcially in the Southern States, CA, AZ and FL included. I think that most white and black dems vote against these divisive, anti-constitutional propositions.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

142. Latino Prop 8 vote: 51% 49%

[Hawkeye-X]

51. I would NOT worry - it'll be shot down with lawsuits after lawsuits

and the fundies will eventually give up, and I'm sure Obama will come up with something that'll derail ALL bans on gay marriage for sure.

[Sinistrous]

67. I want to think you are correct on that, but

Obama-the-candidate was lukewarm (at best) on the issue of same-sex marriage. I can only hope that Obama-the-POTUS will be more forcefully supportive.

[Ioo]

71. Why would he?

[Neshanic]

53. But the bigger thing was won. Obama is President, and now the SC is safe.

and now we will have a possibility of the Supreme Court ending this lunacy once and for all. Equal rights for everyone.

[mnhtnbb]

58. There is the key. It's very sad to see Dems voting to suppress rights

of others.

[Neshanic]

64. I live in AZ. I knew there was no way that this thing would not pass. That being said though,

now we can have the "big" converstaion about this, the solution will be from Washington.

A friendly Supreme Court will help.

[stuntcat]

66. mm true..

Thanks for reminding me, it does make me feel a little better.

[No Elephants]

59. First, let me say how very sorry I

am.

I don't know that you suffered at the hands of Dems. I think 2004 showed that diehard Dems do not account for 53% of the vote in the nation. That vote may have gone to Obama, but it was from Republicans and moderates, too. We are roughly a 50-50 nation, more or less third Parties.

But that is not what is important. What is important is that you suffered at someone's hands and, again, I am sorry. (I started a thread on this a couple of hours ago myself, but it is no doubt long gone by now.)

What is even more important than my being sorry is what we can do about this going forward. Our GLBT posters are going to have to help us with that. I have given to the human rights campaign over the years. Is there a better organization? Etc. You can yell at us, and I don't blame you. But that goes only so far.

Ask us to do specific things. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I promise I will do whatever I can. Maybe I cannot do everything. But I can do something. I have since 2004 and I will again.

[greenmutha]

60. Hey! THERE IS STILL HOPE! Look here:

California Gay Marriage Vote Still Undecided

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3584630

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[TriMetFan]

61. Because Gay/Lesbians are not

seen as equal to the rest of Americans. Its that just simple.

[codjh9]

63. Yes, even a surprising no. of Dems aren't for gay marriage.

[Johonny]

65. Wasn't as bad a lose as last time

the positive is that the state of California didn't vote for it like last time it was up. I don't know what will happen. It's doubtful this won't go to the courts. It will almost certainly end up on the ballot again and again. It's possible civil unions will have to pass first and the community will have to take steps to get full equality.

[glitch]

72. It hasn't passed yet, although that doesn't excuse all the creeps that voted for it. nt

[abburdlen]

74. it's a bittersweet morning

I'm thrilled with the Presidential outcome - ecstatic Libby Dole has been sent packing but I just re-read MLK's "I have a Dream" speech and I wonder when America's promise is going to be met for everyone.

I'm a happily married straight male with two young daughters who should be able love and marry whoever the hell they chose. My lesbian friends should be able to start a family without the fear the state may not consider them a 'real' couple. My Uncles shouldn't have their newly acquired California marriage license, a piece of paper they deserved as much as anyone with their 30 years together, taken away because it doesn't agree with the ideas of some church.

A child can wake up this morning knowing it is true anyone can become President and tears of joy well in my eyes thinking of that. But if that same child grows up and falls in love with someone of the same gender, they still aren't truly free.
We still have work to do.

[thrift_store_angel]

165. Really? Anyone can be president?

How many openly gay presidents have we had?

[abburdlen]

177. yes anyone.

until last night we've had as many openly gay Presidents as black Presidents.
The barrier has been broken. The White house is no longer a white protestant male only club.
In my life I don't doubt we'll see a woman elected.
The chances of an openly gay President aren't as remote as they were yesterday, though I may never see the day I can vote for someone who shares my lack of belief in god.
I really do agree with what Obama said in his speech last night that America is a place where all things are possible - it just sucks that while true acceptance and freedom is possible for all Americans, it's still going to take more work before it's reality.

[kenny blankenship]

208. Well Bush proved that a mentally handicapped man can be President -as long as he's white

And Obama has proved that an African American man can be President -as long he's a genius.

While that shows substantial, laudable progress is being made, it does not yet prove that racism is vanquished nor that other forms of discrimination (sexism, homophobia, Anti-Semitism, or Hispanophobia, if that is a word) have faded away either.

[blue_onyx]

85. This is why we need to do something on the federal level

I think it's BS when people (including Obama) say gay rights are a states issue. NO! How is it ok for some states to treat people equally and for others to not treat people equally? What if we had said in 60s that equal rights for black people should be left to the states? We need to, as a country, say gay people deserve equality (regardless if the majority of people/state agree). I hope the Democrats get it together and start to lead on this issue.

[Ioo]

98. SCOTUS is not there yet... and Obama will not spend Political Cap to do it.

Look, I still do not think Obama is our friend. I do not think he would do anything to hurt us, but I also know he is not going out of his way to help us....

[blue_onyx]

115. I agree....Obama won't do it

But there will be a point when gay people will not longer be able to overlook the fact that they're being taken for granted. I'm not sure if that will be in 2012 or 2016 or further down the line but the Democrats may start to lose gay voters if they don't start to work for gay voters.

[JVS]

222. States' rights is essentially a tactic to be able to choose winning battles.

By making gay marriage a states' issue, it was hoped that it would take hold in some states and later spread, rather than just fail outright as would happen if one tried it on a national level. If this doesn't fly in CA, what makes anyone think it could fly nationally?

[endthewar]

86. It's time for people to stop depending on judicial activism for social change

It clearly needs to happen on the legislative level.

[JVS]

219. What makes you think that the legislative level will be more effective?

Please explain how politicians will do what the public votes against?

[jacksonian]

252. BS

we depend on the judicial for justice. Legislative policy can be anything as long as it's just, and it's the courts that decide what is just.

This needs to be a court battle.

[Bertha Venation]

91. "almost not a state" -- ??? This heartbroken lesbian asks you to

back off of this, if not in a post then at least in your attitude. This is uncalled for.

[endthewar]

95. Too many liberals look down upon people that don't agree with them

as evidenced by the OP looking down on Arkansas.

[SoxFan]

110. Agree

There are many, many good people from Arkansas (my wife among them) who don't need this sort of elitist baloney.

[skygazer]

92. There was a lot of organized backing for it

With out-of-state help from the Mormons and others. They hit every fear button they could with print and tv ads. The no on 8 forces were not strong and organized enough to counter it.

It IS our fault and I accept that and am ashamed. Obama's victory is bittersweet to me today - I hate the fact that my state has voted to put bigotry and oppression in its constitution. :cry:

[endthewar]

103. Won't the "no" forces just put it on the ballot again?

I would think they would just need to tie this up in the courts for 2 years and then try to defeat it in 2010. :shrug:

As a non-Californian, I've never thought very highly of California's ballot initiatives.

[NewJeffCT]

94. Thankfully, CT rejected the chance to vote on banning gay marriage - big time

60-40% to hold a Constitutional Convention about amending the state Constitution...

[Jennicut]

145. Yes, I am proud we defeated that crappy measure

[SarahB]

239. Exactly! I'm so proud of my state!!!! nt

[slackmaster]

97. I'm not buying it - Only 44.4% of Californians are registered Democrats

Except for a small bounce in the last two years, the California Democratic Party has been LOSING members at about twice the rate of the GOP.

Statistics are on the SoS's Web site, which is not working very well at the moment for obvious reasons.

http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vr.htm

The right wing took gay marriage to the ballot for the 3rd time, and won finally. (why did it pass this time)

No, this was the SECOND time and the won the FIRST time too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_22_(2000)

Please get informed.

[youthere]

99. I'm speechless. How does this happen?

[endthewar]

102. People here are living in a bubble

hate to say it, but it's the truth. There's too much focus on getting redistributive change through judicial activism and not enough focus on getting social change through the legislative branch. Hmmm...where have I heard that before? :rofl:

[TheDonkey]

106. GLBT outreach has ignored the black and hispanic communities and sadly at OUR peril

but I think now CA GLBT leaders will hopefully wake up and try to build bridges.

[Ioo]

140. I think you have a point...

[TheDonkey]

190. It is really unfortunate but I saw it clearly in Los Angeles

There were many WeHo volunteers pretty much flooding the westside where I live with No on Prop 8 flyers, banners, and poll persons but when I visited South Los Angeles to see relatives I saw no signs of ANY outreach. GLBT folks cannot assume that minorities will just vote for gay marriage if no one is even willing to convince them. That isn't to take blame away from hateful people but I think the complete lopsidedness is a flag that the GLBT community has work to do with people of color and we cannot hide or avoid it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

109. Arizona did too.

:(

[fifthoffive]

111. As a human who believes in equal rights for everyone,

I cannot understand how people can vote to take existing rights away from their fellow humans.

I know it happened, but I cannot understand it.

[TriMetFan]

114. What people don't get is..........

It doesn't matter how many AA, HA, WA or any other race voted for Prob 8. What matters is that Democrats voted to take rights away from people. Gay and Lesbians had the right to marry and Democrats helped to strip those
rights. Now that is what sick about all this.:mad:

[Deep13]

117. Gay people will suffer because voters believe in the divinity of a book.

One of the oldest hooks religion has on people is its control over sexual and reproductive life. That will end up being the last thing we take from them.

[ogneopasno]

120. Hey, California! Maybe you shouldn't legislate through proposition! Make your representatives do

their freaking jobs, and take it to the courts!

[endthewar]

134. Agreed!

I've always rolled my eyes whenever I hear about a new proposition on the ballot in California. Part of me thinks that you reap what you sow, and until this state gets its act together, I'll reserve my sympathy for it. If people and Massachusetts can figure out how to keep gay marriage legal, California should be able to figure it out as well.

[Raineyb]

151. I have to agree with ogneopasno

Your state constitution is way too easy to change if all one has to do is put a ballot initiative up for a vote. People's rights should not so easily voted on.

Regards

[petronius]

157. That part I'd agree with. I think we voted ourselves a couple of big

problems in this round of propositions... :(

[slackmaster]

169. Maybe that will be possible after the 2010 reapportionment of legislative districts

The present do-nothing legislature is a direct and predictable result of the present system of gerrymandering, which has created a bizarre tapestry of nearly all "safe" seats for incumbent Democrats and Republicans.

That's one reason I voted Yes on Proposition 11, which appears to be passing last time I checked.

[progressivebydesign]

121. We can argue all day about which groups voted for it, BUT the one commonality was CHURCHES!

Until we can get through to these God-fearin' folks that it's none of their DAMN business what other people do in their lives, we will continue to lose on this issue. My biggest kudos go to the churches that worked hard to defeat this proposition. It takes true compassion, and intelligence, and understanding of Jesus' teachings, to understand that we are ALL equal -- and love knows no bounds.

While I saw upthread that the demographics of who voted for this are being argued vociferously, it was the church connection that allowed this to pass. I can only hope, at this point, there is a legal challenge in our future to reverse this wrong.

[Ioo]

122. Agreed

[kenny blankenship]

131. John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye hate the faggots;

"as bigoted majorities have so long hated you, that ye also now hate the fag minority."

Wasn't that what he said? Nothing unites the people of God's love so much as their earthly hate. Or did he say something different?

[endthewar]

136. Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin

It's actually kind of surprising that the vote was this close. In my opinion, social issues like these should not be on election ballots.

[Ioo]

138. To bad the bible does not

[spoony]

144. Christianity isn't monolithic, though.

[DevonRex]

162. Absolutely. THAT is the problem. And I don't know how the heck

to fight the churches on this, either. We can't stop them from preaching this stuff. And they have a stranglehold on their followers.

[slackmaster]

170. Yes, and that's why they should be stripped of their tax-exempt status

The RCC and LDS were the biggest offenders in this election.

[krabigirl]

240. Yep, it was the churches, and it's about damn time to take away tax-exempt status for ALL of them.

[Ioo]

135. Thank you for all the kind words... I am not sure how we move forward. CA was the tide...

and I feel that we have had serious setbacks...

[Ladyhawk]

176. Setbacks, yes.

The pendulum has swung the wrong way. I think things will get better for the GLBT community. When I was young, I was taught by my religion to hate gay people. I changed. I think others can and will, too.

[TexasObserver]

139. Sadly, there are a number of voters of Obama who oppose gay marriage.

80% of Democrats are right on the issue, but 20% are not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. I'm reminded of gays being scapegoated for Kerry's 2004 loss.

[Uzybone]

195. Now Californias blacks are the scapegoats

this is a disturbing thread.

Instead of being mad at blacks (as if they are the only group with homophobes, heck some gays are homophobes too) why don't we focus on educating the uninformed.

[bluedawg12]

204. Here's some information: gays are human beings.

Those that voted to take away a basic right, to take it away after it was already law....those Dems who voted for propagate-hate 8, what is it that they didn't know by now?

Yeah, there is obviously much more work to be done, but what hurts is that Dems walked into a polling booth and voted for Obama and for propagate-hate- 8 and came out smiling like nothing happened.

Who said these words?

"We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them."

Well, I don't blame the fundies and Mormons, I expect this from them.

But, I do blame those who were asked to unite in a cause, and we all did, gay and straight, for President elect Obama, but some broke that covenant.

[Uzybone]

212. Blaming an entire race for this is just as bad

There are many people who are homophobes, but this thread seems to focus only on the blacks. What about the 50% of Caucasians who also voted against human rights?

Scapegoating is not the answer, educating your black brothers and sisters on why this is a basic human right is more effective.

[Raineyb]

224. That's too hard. Scapegoating is much easier.

At least that's what I'm surmising from some of the posts I've read here.

Regards

[onefreespiritedchick]

228. Exactly! n/t

[bridgit]

150. reported as of this morning it is too close to call

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-bc-ca--electionrdp1stld-writethru,1,4784292.story

[QueenOfCalifornia]

173. I know

but it sure as hell was not ME.

I voted NO ON H8.

I know my gay friends and family members have been wounded by this. Sweet fucking jesus on a stick... What is wrong with people?

Arkansas is a fucking hillbilly heaven - California is just plain damned stupid.

I am keeping my No on 8 sticker on till my car rots.

Sorry about our stupid factor Gay people. :pals: :(

[Ladyhawk]

174. I truly believe things will change for you.

Last night really sucked for the LGBT community, but I think things will get better for you. I have no idea why so many Dems voted against equal rights for you. Here in California, I think you can thank the Mormon Church. :(

If it's any consolation, I'm in the most denigrated demographic. I'm an atheist. Things will change for us, too.

[AtomicKitten]

178. I blame the Mormons' $20 million campaign of lies and fear.

This will be litigated.

[Ladyhawk]

179. Yep. And people wonder why I have issues with religion. n/t

[KamaAina]

180. Arkansas almost not a state?

So where did Bill Clinton come from? Or Wes Clark? :shrug:

[Every Man A King]

182. Unfortunately

I think a fair amount of civil disobedience is going to be needed to turn the corner on this issue nationwide.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Realityhack]

193. NO it is not. Currently and for some time...

marriage has been both a religious/cultural ceremony and a legal contractual construct.

Civil unions would only be the same as marriage IF both the state and federal governments made all 'marriages' civil unions including those for strait couples and retrofitted existing laws for that wording.

Claiming that marriage is only a religious issue is factually incorrect.

[Pithlet]

200. Thank you.

I can't help but wonder if that misinformation didn't help grease the skids for prop 8 with Dems. I've argued this over and over on DU, and I STILL see people here post that marriage is a religious union. If we keep seeing it on DU of all places, that tells you something. We have to keep hammering it home that it isn't. It's a legal contract.

[Realityhack]

209. Yep. If it was a religious union I would have married the fish at work to a toaster...

as an official act of the church of st. bastard. ;-)

[AnAnonymousDemocrat]

197. I'll go for civil unions when civil unions get the same tax breaks as married couples

Life is SO much easier for heterosexuals. They never have to think about any of these things.

[fed_up_mother]

203. Civil unions should have EXACTLY the same benefits

Marriage used to mean the union of a man and woman. There's no denying that the definition has to change for GLBT to have rights. In my opinion, you con't constitutionally claim that this is a separate but equal argument when you have to change the definition of what a marriage is in order for GLBT rights to be recognized. (I think they have inherent rights, btw.) However, I believe people have an inherent right to live as they choose without government interference. I believe that people should be able to order their lives along the same benefits that other people do. I'm just not so sure there's an inherent right to redefine marriage. I'm speaking constitutionally.

I think that if the fight was for civil unions with all rights of marriage, our GLBT would be farther ahead, but that's just my opinion. Right now, my gay friends have married in another state, but still have no rights in this state. :(

[Ioo]

205. Please tell me your kidding with your title?

NO IT IS NOT. IF YOU THINK MARRIAGE IS A CHURCH THING, THEN SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ASK FOR A DIVORCE... YOU ARE TOLD TO GO TO COURT, A CIVIL COURT...

MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL CONTRACT YOU ALLOW YOUR CHURCH INTO

CIVIL DOCUMENT + CHURCH EVENT = MARRIED
CIVIL DOCUMENT + CIVIL EVENT = MARRIED
NO CIVIL DOCUMENT + CHURCH EVENT = NOT MARRIED

[MountainLaurel]

210. Funny, I didn't get married in a church

And Gawd didn't make an appearance in our vows at all. I guess Mr. Laurel and I should stop claiming "Married and Filing Jointly" on our taxes, and I'll have to dump him from my health insurance since my state doesn't allow domestic partnerships at all.

But at least I'll get the extra pleasure out of sex knowing that I'm pissing off some Talibornagain by having unmarried relations.

[krabigirl]

241. No, marriage is traditionally a transfer of property. Marriage is a legal state.

So do you suggest those of us who chose not to marry in a church, or by a pastor, or without the word "god" in their vows, that we are not married? LOL! Is that what's next? Guess what? You don't need RELIGION to get married!!!

[FreeState]

244. 100% BS - part of every wedding says "By the authority of the state" its not a religiou ceremony n/t

[shaniqua6392]

194. What can we do to help??

Will this be challenged in the courts?? If so, will the ACLU take it on?? I know it may be too early to answer these questions, but I want you to know that there are many people out here that support you. We will not stop fighting to give you the rights you deserve. I am so sorry about the proposal passing. It breaks my heart.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

202. Did you forget that independents exist? (nt)

[bluedawg12]

229. Independents accounted for (28%) voted No: (54%) n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

242. And that's more than half. Where'd the other half come from?

[bluedawg12]

245. Independents voted 54% against and 46% for P8

they accounted for 28% of all voters.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

250. Only 36% of Democrats voted for this. They were only 15% of those who voted for it.

[treestar]

207. I am amazed because the same set of people who voted

for Obama voted for Prop 8. Or would there be people who voted on one but not the other?

Strange state. What element causes it to elect a governor like that Ahnuld or pass Prop 8, yet they still have the sanity to go blue for the Presidency?

[mzmolly]

211. In Florida 90% of Dems voted in favor of gay rights. Why focus on the 10%?

I don't get the blaming Democrats thing, sorry. Independents and Republicans had a vote as well.

[Ioo]

220. NOT AT ALL - Had those 10% Not Thrown us under the bus it would have failed!!!!

So YES, that 10% are very responsible for it. You need 60% in Florida for it to pass... not 50%

[mzmolly]

227. What about Gay Republicans? Should we hold all gays responsible for the

actions of a few? Should we 'renounce' the Gay community because some gays supported the war? This trend of "Democrats threw us under the bus" stuff is ridiculous considering the majority of Dems supported gay rights with their votes.

[Ioo]

274. Straw man argument - I think every vote is wrong, but from people that claim Dem.

[mzmolly]

277. I don't think we can hold the entire Democratic Party responsible

for the actions of a few.

[shimmergal]

214. Maybe it's time to do some strategic thinking

, as in the suggestion to concentrate on legislation. Maybe it's time to change the terms of the debate, too.

For example: in my church at least, all you need for a valid marriage is the two members of the couple, and God as witness to their intention to share their lives. Everything else, including the ceremony, the blessing of clergy, cake, presents etc.--they're none of them required.

So go ahead, you have every right to call yourselves married anyway. Then with a decent civil union law passed, there's a stealth way to attain marriage equality. It's just a thought...Why let bigots wrest respect or rights away with their votes?

[Bluenorthwest]

217. Pro discrimination democrats

who foist their own hatred off onto a religion they themselves refuse to follow in any way shape or form. Harsh reality. People who vote for the same candidate we do favor discrimination, even as they celebrate themselves for voting for a black candidate. Hypocrisy.
Anyone who claims Christ has anything to do with their feelings about marriage as a sacred thing who does not work full time to stop all divorce is using Christ as a crutch for their own short comings. It is that simple. People who support divorce laws reject the teachings of Jesus in regard to marriage. Period. People who have out of wedlock kids, they reject the law of Moses and of Christ. Period. They reject it. Any pose they take qouting that faith against gays is a lie. A lie. They lie, and by doing so they call God by the name of Hate.
They worship seperation, which is in fact evil.

[bluedawg12]

288. We didn't lose to the RW base

we lost because fellow Dems voted against a human rights issue- that's why many have cognitive dissonance over this issue.

[AJH032]

294. excellent!

I believe you nailed it.

[flvegan]

230. I'm ashamed that Florida got the 60% it needed.

We already had a bigoted state law, and now hate is written into our Constitution.

I'm in disbelief over CA.

[deadlyaj]

247. Sorry. But many dems are against gay marriage. Its a sad reality.

[Zhade]

293. And for them, a reminder:

"Democratic Underground DOES NOT permit homophobic bigotry and DOES NOT welcome members who oppose equal rights for all." - Skinner

[Jed Dilligan]

248. It's just a matter of time before this "issue" disappears.

Voters 65 and over were for the h8, 61-39; voters 18-29 were against it, 61-39. Each age group was more opposed to the prop than the age group older than it. The bigots are loud right now, pouring all their money into laws that are doomed to die in court, but it's only because they are losing bigtime in the long term.

[joshcryer]

249. I believe Obama's stance on "gay marriage" sent a mixed message.

He is for "civil unions" but "against gay marriage." It was too weak of a stance to really ressonate with the population, particularly the group that went for him most.

[endthewar]

268. Most voters can't explain the difference between civil unions and gay marriage

and until they're educated on the differences, no true inroads will be made.

[tbyg52]

253. Absolutely shameful. I don't know whether to cry now for happiness or sadness. nt

[NutmegYankee]

259. Connecticut Shot theirs down!!

The Constitutional Convention was to eliminate the marriage that is allowed now. This makes Mass and Conn the only ones right?

[ShenandoahAspen]

262. Things like this make me embarrassed to be a Christian.

Jesus said to love EVERYONE, and to treat EVERYONE equal -- and that includes our GLBT brothers and sisters. I myself am questioning my sexuality -- and sympathize with those who are GLBT. I was really hoping this amendment would fail, and hope it still does somehow through the courts.
The good news though is that most of the young people voted AGAINST Prop. 8. The older folks will die off eventually, and one day GLBT will have just the same rights as heterosexuals. I don't have much patience though, and I want it to happen ASAP! :mad:

[Name removed]

269. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Th1onein]

279. I am so sorry.

I'm in Texas, so I could not have voted for the ban, but I would not have voted for it, given the chance. I am so sorry that your rights were taken away from you.

I hope that, as we grow up, as a nation, this kind of discrimination will pass with the older generations. It seems that we managed to pass a milestone in the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States, but it might take a bit more time (and effort) to pass that milestone for the GLBT community.

[CTLawGuy]

282. move to CT

the fundies (to the extent they exist here) are afraid to put forth an amendment, they tried to hide it in a constitutional convention question and it still lost.

[dakdirty]

284. Very sad.

As a black man living in FL, I feel like there is much hate being directed at me. I voted against any ban, primarily because I am black, and I feel that abridgment of people's civil rights is something that just cannot be allowed. Why make black people a specific target to pin the blame on? Most people in my family, including my devoutly christian wife, did not support this bill. I support an end to bigotry of any type, but I don't feel that making this argument along racial lines is an effective way to change anyone's mind. Everyone who voted to pass this bill will have their conscience to answer to. But, just like electing a black president is not going to just wipe clean the slate of racial bigotry in this country, these sorry events will not be end of the struggle to grant equal rights to every citizen of this country. I want to be in this fight, but I would find it hard if the prevailing attitude in gay community is one of demonizing all black people as homophobes.

[eek MD]

285. Perhaps you should become a republican then...

I mean, if us dems are as horrible as you claim us to be, that would be the logical thing to do, right?

Some people are ignorant, no matter what party they belong to. Our job is to inform them. You won't win any converts by insulting democrats on "DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND"... considering probably the vast majority of us sided with you!. You'll only look like a jerk.... Which I can certainly say you do.

[bluedawg12]

287. You'd like that? Get rid of the GLBT's?

"Some people are ignorant, no matter what party they belong to. Our job is to inform them."

Really? Go to the 37% of Dems who voted against a civil rights issue? They haven't heard that?

[eek MD]

290. Way to put words in my mouth....

I was saying that the democratic party is miles ahead of the alternative. Way to twist my words to suit your purpose of tearing the party down though.....

And the way to win people to your cause is through informing them. They're not seeing it as the civil rights issue that it IS. Instead they're blindly following scare tactics issued from a pulpit. The way to get them to see it as a civil rights issue is through information... not insults. Do you woo a republican over to the democratic party by calling that person a bigoted homophobic racist asshole? No, you counter the racist bigoted talking points that they hear with information...and get them to see that they're being misled by people with an agenda of hatred.

Do you think that us Democrats on DU are against gay rights? Why insult us then unless your goal is to fracture the party?

[bluedawg12]

295. See the question marks? Rhetorical question.

>>I was saying that the democratic party is miles ahead of the alternative. <<

Not miles, there is no alternative. See that's the point of asking a gay Dem if they would like to be a repig, that's why it is kind of uh..unfair. We both know there is no choice. Nuff said there.

>>And the way to win people to your cause is through informing them.<<
OK

>>They're not seeing it as the civil rights issue that it IS. Instead they're blindly following scare tactics issued from a pulpit. The way to get them to see it as a civil rights issue is through information... not insults.<<

You do see that I/we, most of us cannot go to those pulpits.

Yes they are scare tactics and I have heard NOTHING, NOTHING that the message from those pulpits will change.

That's a problem.

Now, I am aware of the financing from various churches, and know the top two.

But, I don;t know what the voters demographics broke down as.

I can speculate. The Latino vote was Catholic and AA vote was something like Baptist (?).

When is the next time a gay Dem will be invited to one of those pulpits? So, maybe if we complain, and gripe, maybe some from those groups will rethink their effect on those not like themsleves.

>>Do you woo a republican over to the democratic party by calling that person a bigoted homophobic racist asshole<<

You need to adress that in the proper thread. I don't recall that combo of words. (geez)

But, in general, republican bigoted homophobic racist assholes are goners, IMHO. Maybe some one else can save them.

I mean just how much education does it take for people to say, "Gee, gays are human beings like me?"

At a time when we are breaking all kinds of barriers, and when our Pres. Elect has mentioned that he wants an end to division?

[Zhade]

296. Some are - and they're not trolls.

NT!

[bluedawg12]

299. here's a question about educating people>>

I wrote this on the GLBT forum, earlier today.

But I have tried, how do you educate people when they fall back on religion as their justification for bigotry.

Here are some conversations I had last night, before I finally had enough and left this other fouorm talking till I was blue in the face. How do you educate against this:

Witness for example some comments:

“Don’t get me wrong, I know some gays, but homosexuality is wrong.”

This from a Mormon on the forum:

“ I have some gay friends. I love them to pieces. But, it’s morally wrong. Sorry, but that’s what my faith tells me.”

“I am voting for Prop 8 to save America.”

“ I am voting for Prop 8 because the moral decline of this country will be punished by God, sooner or later, we will destroy our selves. That’s why I am voting against gay marriage.”

From others:

“It’s a choice, a life style. Don’t get me started on this.”

“They will never be like us. Marriage between two men is just not the same. If it walks like ‘deer’,runs like a ‘deer,’ talks like a ‘deer’ don’t tell me it’s a turtle.”

Another, from an AA woman, pro Obama:

“I have some gay friends. I love them, they are great guys. But when they kiss, I get queasy. I am so torn. I still think marriage is something special, something beautiful between a man and a woman. I just don’t know what to do. I mean, I hate to vote with Focus on the ****, but, still. I guess I can ( unsaid: hold my nose) and vote against Propr 8.”

These are regular folk, maybe to the right of the spectrum for some, but many have prided themselves on being “open,” “accepting,” they often say of themselves, “we are a tolerant bunch.”

What is wrong with people?

They see nothing wrong with casually dehumanizing their fellows as living lives that are “wrong, immoral, destructive to our nation, nauseating to witness?”

[Ioo]

304. Eat me! Stick the "Take it or leave it" shit somewhere else...BO Won CA, Prop 8 Losed... so Dems did

it

[eek MD]

320. and YOU are a dem (or at least I assume you are)...

So that makes YOU responsible for Prop 8 being defeated?

I'm a dem... are you saying that I'm responsible.. even though I had no chance to vote on this prop?

Get off of your high horse for a moment. Stop abusing and name calling to the people who support you, which is the VAST majority of us on this board. You're only hurting your cause.

[Ioo]

323. That is not the case, I will not have my "patriotism" questioned - that is what was done...

It is such a fucking right wing tactic

DEMOCRATS TOSSED THE GAYS UNDER THE BUS IN CA!!!!

Sorry man, but that is the case. THere is no way Obama could win a state like he did and this not fail... So people went to the polls and voted for Obama and to toss the fags under the bus...

Sorry, I am not calling all Dems bad, but the comment I was responding to was just fucking out of the play book of Rove and Palin.

[Bryn]

297. I gave my support when I voted in Arkansas

I voted No to ban. I tried. :( This place is overwhelming religious far right

[bluedawg12]

301. Thank you for trying. Ark. geesh

*shakes head* at least you gave it a shot.

Hard to fight the pulpit.

[Ioo]

324. Thank you, I am sure it was an uphill battle

[Raine]

300. I'm very sorry I live in CA

and I'm very ashamed of this horrible vote. :-( :hug:

[Laelth]

302. That all Americans are equal under the law is a promise we have yet to fulfill.

It is saddening and, for many I am sure, maddening. You have every right to call out the Democratic Party for not doing more.

:dem:

-Laelth

[mollymongold]

303. Anderson Cooper is covering the rally somewhat..

[Essene]

306. majority of blacks, latinos and people over 65 supporting prop 8

blacks are like 13% of the electorate... yet here we are on DU... blaming them, bashing black churches, etc.

i think it's important to highlight the disgrace of 70% of blacks in cali voting for this proposition, but that needs to be done constructively and without getting nasty about how "blacks threw gays under the bus."

it's frustrating as hell but let's not reduce it to the divisive politics that made this happen in the first place.

america needs to ask hard questions about how the majority of blacks and latinos supported this, and the answers may be very complicated.

remember... blacks are struggling with stable families... and the folks that vote tend to be predominantly BLACK WOMEN and church going types. that may sound like excuse making, but it's actually a map for action and understanding.

a response needs to happen but it needs to be constructive and change-oriented so that we can get past this kind of thing happening again.

[Ioo]

307. WRONG - Latinos went 51% Yes and 49% No - So this is not true...

that is what the exit polls say

[kwenu]

330. 51% is a majority. I find this inquiry silly as there are tons of black, latino and aged gays.

The consciousness of all people need to be raised regarding civil rights.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

309. They always have to have someone to hate - so sad....

n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

318. You realize of course that a lot of people don't have any idea what

they're voting for or against on these amendments. They don't understand them and they are easily confused as to whether "yes" or "no" is the right answer. They have a 50/50 chance of getting it right and sadly a lot of them don't.

[Realityhack]

319. Does anyone here have a pic of the ballot in CA?

In MA our ballot was very clear as to what yes and no meant. I wish I had a pic to share but they did a very good job with the question wording.

[Nye Bevan]

321. Obama needs to unambiguously repudiate his statement from August

about his belief that marriage is a "sacred bond between a man and a woman" with "God in the mix". As long as this is President Obama's position of record, homophobic bigots will take full advantage of it when trying to pass other anti-gay marriage initiatives.

Obama is a big enough man to say that he was wrong then, and that he is now 100% in favor of full marriage rights for everyone.

BTW I just *love* typing "Obama" immediately after "President"!