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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:47 PM
Original message
Anybody Wanna Discuss How Wrong Palast /"They're Gonna Steal It" Types Were?
I mean, how MANY threads were there on the vote being stolen in the past month?

Today, nary a whimper. Nary a word of "sorry, I was wrong" for getting people all riled up over something that didn't happen, something that jerks like me said could NEVER happen this time around.

Discussion?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Votes were stolen.
But Obama's ground game swamped that.

The system still needs revamping.
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KSDiva Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. I agree. They couldn't risk trying a major steal
because our margin of victory was going to be so large. I would be that it was even wider, but for the thefts.

I think we need to go to a week or two week voting period nationwide with PAPER BALLOTS and enough people hired to properly count them. There definitely needs to be a better paper trail, the machine thing is not working.
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. that remains to be seen. winning by .2% is still a win and with no paper trails how do you know
that for every 3 votes a (D) got one vote was switched to an (R)?
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StrongBad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was thinking about that this morning
Though we were definitely theived in 2000, that was the Supreme Court and not voter machines. I've always been skeptical about claims of theft last cycle, but people were so sure of a theft this year.

What happens to the voter fraud argument now?
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. 2004 was stolen in Ohio..
There is no doubt about it! :smoke:
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, but I will smile quietly and to myself. NT
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Stealing the vote was a real possibility if the vote was very close like in the past few elections.
Obama won by a large margin that could not be denied.

Plus, thanks to Palast and others, the voting populace was aware of the GOP attempts to cage, suppress and otherwise steal Democratic votes.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. The awareness issue can't be stressed enough. People like Palast opened our eyes
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 03:11 PM by bunkerbuster1
Yeah, I'll admit, there were times when (say) I'd be ready to download a Peter B. Collins podcast and see his guest was Brad Freidman and think "oh Donnie Downer's on again" and pass on listening because I'd heard it so many times before.

But if it weren't for those Donnie Downers out there pointing out the irregularities, the GOP would've been emboldened to snuff out a whole lot more votes than they managed.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. You're naive if you think just because they didn't succeed means they didn't try.
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 01:52 PM by CrispyQGirl
This is an issue that needs to be addressed or we will be revisiting it in the future.

edited for clarification
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Exactly!
Stop being a pollyanna, stopbush.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Bingo!
You know they damn well didn't play fair. They just couldn't get it done.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. Just because we GOTV to the point of mitigating fraud doesn't mean it didn't occur.
READ THESE STUDIES ABOUT E-VOTING & CONSIDER HOW FEW PROBLEMS WE SEE W DIEBOLDS BANKING (ATM) MACHINES:


Examples of Voting System Vulnerabilities and Problems
• Cast ballots, ballot definition files, and audit logs
could be modified.
• Supervisor functions were protected with weak
or easily guessed passwords.
• Systems had easily picked locks and power
switches that were exposed and unprotected.
• Local jurisdictions misconfigured their
electronic voting systems, leading to
election day problems.
• Voting systems experienced operational
failures during elections.
• Vendors installed uncertified electronic
voting systems.
Source: GAO analysis of recent reports and studies.

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d05956high.pdf

Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuVote-TS Voting Machine
Ariel J. Feldman, J. Alex Halderman, and Edward W. Felten — September 13, 2006

Abstract This paper presents a fully independent security study of a Diebold AccuVote-TS voting machine, including its hardware and software. We obtained the machine from a private party. Analysis of the machine, in light of real election procedures, shows that it is vulnerable to extremely serious attacks. For example, an attacker who gets physical access to a machine or its removable memory card for as little as one minute could install malicious code; malicious code on a machine could steal votes undetectably, modifying all records, logs, and counters to be consistent with the fraudulent vote count it creates. An attacker could also create malicious code that spreads automatically and silently from machine to machine during normal election activities — a voting-machine virus. We have constructed working demonstrations of these attacks in our lab. Mitigating these threats will require changes to the voting machine's hardware and software and the adoption of more rigorous election procedures.
Full research paper (Workshop version )

http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/

Study: Hackers Could Change E-Voting Machine Results

By Erika Morphy
TechNewsWorld
07/30/07 12:35 PM PT

University researchers have demonstrated multiple ways of compromising all three of the electronic voting machine systems certified for use in California. The hacks could result in hijacking machines and altering election results, they claim. Although the system vendors have issued a detailed rebuttal of the study, critics are calling for an investigation into the e-voting certification process.

A test of three electronic voting systems certified for use in California has uncovered serious security flaws. Researchers at the University of California conducted the tests at the behest of Secretary of State Debra Bowen under a US$1.8 million contract.

Their mission was to try to compromise the integrity of the voting systems provided by Diebold Elections Systems, Hart Intercivic and Sequoia Voting Systems. They not only succeeded in breaching all of the systems, but also concluded there were likely more security problems that they did not have time to explore during the limited time frame of the study.


Three Vendors, Numerous Failures

What they did find was worrisome enough.

-snip

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/58572.html



Pull The Plug
Aviel Rubin 09.04.06, 12:00 AM ET



-snip


Consider one simple mode of attack that has already proved effective on a widely used DRE, the Accuvote made by Diebold (nyse: DBD - news -people ). It's called overwriting the boot loader, the software that runs first when the machine is booted up. The boot loader controls which operating system loads, so it is the most security-critical piece of the machine. In overwriting it an attacker can, for example, make the machine count every fifth Republican vote as a Democratic vote, swap the vote outcome at the end of the election or produce a completely fabricated result. To stage this attack, a night janitor at the polling place would need only a few seconds' worth of access to the computer's memory card slot.

Further, an attacker can modify what's known as the ballot definition file on the memory card. The outcome: Votes for two candidates for a particular office are swapped. This attack works by programming the software to recognize the precinct number where the machine is situated. If the attack code limits its execution to precincts that are statistically close but still favor a particular party, it goes unnoticed.

One might argue that one way to prevent this attack is to randomize the precinct numbers inside the software. But that's an argument made in hindsight. If the defense against the attack is not built into the voting system, the attack will work, and there are virtually limitless ways to attack a system. And let's not count on hiring 24-hour security guards to protect voting machines.

DREs have a transparency problem: You can't easily discover if they've been tinkered with. It's one thing to suspect that officials have miscounted hanging chads but something else entirely for people to wonder whether a corrupt programmer working behind the scenes has rigged a computer to help his side.



Aviel Rubin, professor of computer science at Johns Hopkins University and author of Brave New Ballot: The Battle To Safeguard Democracy In The Age Of Electronic Voting.

-snip

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0904/040.html?partner=alerts&_requestid=2972



Voting Technology

After the 2000 election and the passage of the Help America Vote Act of 2002, states moved to modernize election administration by retiring antiquated lever and punch-card voting machines and implementing new electronic voting machines. Electronic voting machines have not been the panacea to vote-counting woes that many had hoped they would be. Until recently, there has been surprisingly little empirical study on electronic voting systems in the areas of security, accessibility, usability, and cost. The result is that jurisdictions are making purchasing decisions and are adopting laws and procedures that do little to promote these goals.

In 2006, the Brennan Center released two comprehensive, empirical analyses of electronic voting systems in the United States, The Machinery of Democracy: Protecting Elections in an Electronic World and The Machinery of Democracy: Voting System Security, Accessibility, Usability, and Cost. The Brennan Center continued its study of electronic voting security in Post-Election Audits: Restoring Trust in Elections. Since the Brennan Center initiated its study of electronic voting, it has been called upon to provide expert testimony before Congress and to assist election officials in developing procedures that promote secure and reliable voting systems.

-snip

http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voting_technology/




The Evaluation & Validation of Election-Related Equipment, Standards & Testing report, known as EVEREST, is a comprehensive review of voting systems revealing startling findings on voting machines and systems used in Ohio and throughout the country. The Ohio study tested the systems for:
- risks to vote security,
- system performance, including load capacity,
- configuration to currently certified systems specifications, and
- operations and internal controls that could mitigate risk.

The $1.9 million study, paid for using federal funds, was structured to allow two teams of scientists, corporate and academic, to conduct parallel assessment of the security of the state’s three voting systems - Election Systems & Software (ES&S), Hart Intercivic and Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) - in both voting and board of elections environments. Separate research was conducted on each voting system’s performance, configuration and operations and internal controls management. A bipartisan team of 12 election board directors and deputy directors advised the study and evaluated all reports, participating with the secretary in making recommendations for change.

-snip

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/elections/voterInformation/equipment/VotingSystemReviewFindings.aspx
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. He wasn't wrong because he got ENOUGH people so riled up
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 01:52 PM by rocknation
that they went to the polls and defeated any attempt to cheat--just like in 2006!

:patriot:
rocknation
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was one of them that feared such and with good reason....
Why should any of us who feared such have to say I am sorry? do you for one moment believe that the last two elections were valid? Do you believe that their attempt to steal it once again was not highlighted yesterday by President Obama himself how had a system set up so that people could contact them with reports of election fraud happening?

I for one had confidence that he was well aware of what they were up to and that he would ensure such did not occur..and thankfully my confidence was not in vein.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:52 PM
Original message
I think it was because of the vigilance of these people
the RW could not steal this election.

They were being watched this time.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Absolutely right. He threw a spotlight on it and the roaches were, somewhat,
subdued this time plus we were "lawyer'ed up" and waiting for them.

They were trying but it didn't work as well as in passed years.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. There WAS voter suppression actively going on -- it was all over the news yesterday
They just didn't call it voter suppression. I think if there's an easy method to siphon off votes, Repukes are gonna do it, period.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. TOO BIG TO STEAL...thats what it was..too B I G......6 % is HUGH
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. I was one of the bleakest "They're going to fuck it up" posters.
And I'm certain that they tried. Like the gods coming down at the end of a Greek tragedy, and saving the day, so has it happened here...what has happened is amazing and fills my heart with gladness. To finally be able to know that their day is over...amazing. When I consider how far the other direction this all could have gone...and was going...
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. You'll never convince the tin foil hat crowd
You'll probably get answers that suggest this was a hands off test to lull us into a false sense of security, or that the manipulators focused on propositions or close senate races because they want to set up Obama for next time, etc.


Don't get me wrong 2004 OH looked pretty suspicious and I would not in any way rule out shenanigans there, but the idea that the same Republican party that could not organize a frat party in a brothel with an open bar to save their lives somehow masterminded an intricate, seamless and above all silent conspiracy to control all voting at will is a bit too unbelievable for most folks.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. The "They're Gonna Steal It" crowd has to make room for the "He's Gonna Declare Martial Law and
Cancel the Election" folks. The "Gas Prices Are Going to Spike the Day After the Election" contingent is waiting in the wings for a fair hearing.

The sweet thing about espousing any of these theories is that, when they turn out to be wrong, one can say "Well, it would have happened if I hadn't raised the alarm by boldly predicting something that didn't actually happen". No way you can disprove that logic.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. I think in the future everyone with a concern should just keep it to themselves.
Do you need the tag?
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. They can only steal relatively close elections. This one wasn't close. n/t
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Lorentz Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. There were many states that were close (1%). Obama still won a bunch of those -- why is that?
Are you suggesting that the Democrats stole votes this time?

I hope the "steal your vote" tin-foilers will emerge from behind their keyboards and step back into the real world.
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desktop Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. In many places we have bo idea whether votes were stolen.
I am surprised that a lot of people cannot see that partisan hacks who want their candidate to win, would be willing to do whatever it takes to win. Down to the simple methods of trying to confuse people from voting by using deception, to outright hacking of electronic voting machines. In Texas they refuse to have paper trails. Why in the world would you do that unless you have something to hide.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. All those people standing in line everywhere for days and days and
Barack gets a whopping 52% and you're trying to tell me that votes weren't stolen?

I've got a bridge to sell you.


Obama's team must know exactly how many votes should have been recorded for him, I expect election reform is going to be high on the agenda.
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nancyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'm just relieved that they were wrong.
I'm not ashamed to admit that I was quite anxious. History has taught me to be wary.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Palast was totally right.
A few examples:

He said that a half a million people were dropped from the voter rolls in Indiana. He was right!

Palast also said 1 out of 9 voters were dropped in Colorado. He was right!

He also said the only way Obama could win is if he had a massive, massive turnout of voters. He was right!

I think we all owe Palast a debt of gratitude he was completely right and has influenced the Democratic campaign since at least last spring with his findings.




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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. well, you're still wrong
vote suppression, in and of itself, is vote stealing.
and there are many irregularities still to come out.

The only reason Obama won is that the margin was larger than the stealing. If you believe otherwise, you're kidding yourself.
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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
24. People should remain "all riled up" until our votes are secure.
Palast/Kennedy, etc. were not wrong... votes were stolen. We should be thanking them for their vigilance. The system needs to be changed. There are many problems/insecurities. Private corp. vote counters, vote caging, poll tax/lines, etc.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. They weren't wrong -- it just got too out of hand for the theft to occur.
We said all along that the victory had to be big to prevent theft -- and it was.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think votes absolutely were stolen, but I always doubted Rove would steal presidency for McCain
and RISK getting caught. I am quite certain they used theivery to focus on a senate seat or two and be in full thug mode for 2010 and 2012. This election will help provide the cover needed.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Those people are idiots
They will probably argue now that the GOP lost on purpose or some other insanity. They're best ignored.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. I was the one primarily making that case
...and I still stand by it.

Now that we have more inside information, the McCain/Palin campaign looks like less a case of throwing it away on purpose as colossal mismanagement from McCain all the way down.

Be that as it may, there were plenty of opportunity for saner heads to prevail. But those same people wanted nothing do with with the next four years other than to wait for Obama to rebuild the United States so they can loot it again.
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Citizen Kang Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ever think
Obama got so many votes it was impossible to steal it? I think that was the case.

You can't tell me 2000 was a fair election. The vote in Ohio in 2004 is very suspect.
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happychatter Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. more bait - you know damn well if it were close, it would've been stolen NT
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think they stole votes in the "red states" to be sure they kept
senators - they didn't want us to have 60. - Seems kinda an easy thing to do, not let the red states turn blue - some were pretty close to turning.

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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
32. The very fact that it was a REAL concern is worrisome for our democracy
And we STILL have to be vigilant in fixing the problem. Machines that flip votes, purging Democrats from the voter roles, 8 hour lines - none of that is acceptable to a working democracy.

And you should NOT dismiss those concerns or belittle people who are working vigilantly to fix them.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. NOT WRONG. Many irregularities have been documented.
Just because we had enough of an avalanche to get our landslide doesn't mean irregularities were not documented by the hundreds !!

Election integrity groups managed to STOP ONE THIRD of the GOP standard tricks, and there were computer experts on stand by and teams of lawyers and anomalies on film this time.

We did what we needed to do to overwhelm the tricks. Need to institute paper ballots and random audits and voting machine allocation minimum national standards before the next election.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. what about Rachel Maddow's "He's gonna lose!" concerns the past few weeks
looks like Obama did pretty well whoops.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
36. They stole it. They were just outnumbered.
As I have said repeatedly myself, and people like Palast and Bobby Kennedy have also said, turnout trumps fraud. And in most states it did. Georgia is the most obvious exception unfortunately. It was stolen, as it has been repeatedly since 2002. Missouri most likely, which is why it's still up in the air. Probably Minnesota too, since I have a hard time believing half the state still wants that piece of shit Coleman. It's always the "close" races that are the most suspect.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
38. Votes were stolen - you cannot steal a landslide. NOW we have to work to make sure we have fair
and transparent elections!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. Palast is correct, but the massive turn-out foiled the reindeer games.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. I was told it's in bad form to mention that...
I was told it's in bad form to mention the off-base predictions about Martial Law getting imposed on election night, Jack-Booted Blackwater thugs keeping Pres. Obama from entering the White House in Jan., or civil wars erupting in our neighborhoods (which would be funny to see Mrs. Landry, the 85 year old, white-haired Republican widow brandishing an assault weapon gunning down "dirty, godless liberals").

But, without having read any of the replies on this thread yet, I think I can make one prediction that will undoubtedly come to pass-- someone will say something to effect of, "It's a long time between now and January-- our fan-boy fantasies (oops-- sorry, not fantasies but "warnings") may indeed come true"

Yup... too many computer games, too many bad science fiction novels, and too much sugar results in Trendy Paranoia justifying itself by renaming it Vigilance. :hide:

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
43. Obama's entire strategy was built around vote theft.
He intentionally targeted Virginia because that was the strategy by which he could still win with Florida and/or Ohio being stolen. The fact that he won all three doesn't negate the strategy. The Obama campaign relied heavily on voter registration and early voting, specifically to cancel out Republican caging tactics.

The Republicans and their media shills tried hard--very hard--to create the impression that the race was closer than it actually was. That's because it has to be close enough to steal. It wasn't, and someone at the top knew it. They also tried--and failed--to illegally purge thousands of voters in Colorado and no doubt elsewhere.

That is still another conclusion that can be drawn from this election: that the two previous general elections were stolen by a centrally-directed source which had (and presumably still has) the power to call the vote theft off if it isn't going to be plausible. Geeorgia, and its apparent attempt to not include early voters in the final tally, may provide another clue as to the nature and composition of the election-stealing organization.

Obama's ground game is what wrecked the GOP chances of stealing this one.



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