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2008 EXPANDED ELECTORAL MAP !!!

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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:26 PM
Original message
2008 EXPANDED ELECTORAL MAP !!!



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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Um, we DID win the war of 1812.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. +1
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No, you didn't ... it ended up in a tie ... after the British burned down the Whitehouse.
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kick-ass-bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. What was the British goal of 1812?
It was to repel the American invasion of Canada.

I think they were successful. ;)
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. The Americans attacked Canada (like Iraq in 2003).
The U.S. wanted to take Canada ... obviously, that was a big mistake and disaster.

Had the Union sent in their troops in 1865, it would have been a totally different story,
and the electoral map who have looked this this today.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. If the US wanted Canada in 1812, the US would have first taken Quebec
Once you have Quebec you have Canada. The British did this in 1759, and while that war lasted another four years, Canada was British for the British Army held Quebec. The US tried to take Quebec in 1775 and failed, and the first thing the British did once the Revolutionary War was on, was to reinforce Quebec.

In the 1860s the British again improve Quebec's fortification for the same reason, any attack on Canada means an attack on Quebec first.

The American Invasions of Canada during the war if 1812 was on Ontario NOT Quebec, more to do with the British Support of Tecumseh and his Indian Confederation than any real plan to take Canada.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. The Goal of the British in 1812 was multi fold
First and foremost was the Secure the Duke's of Wellington's wheat supplies for his troops. Ever since the Duke first arrived in Spain he had to secure his supplies lines, and that meant the wheat for the bread for his men. The Wheat came from New England. Thus when the War of 1812 started the British Blockade started in the American South and worked its way North, but even as late as 1814 American Ships were shipping out of New England Harbors and when sighted by British war ships, those British Warships would run them down, and then escort the American Ships and their Valuable cargo of Wheat to Spain and then back to New England to get a new Shipment of Wheat.

Second, was to preserve as much as possible the independence of the Indians of the American Northwest (As that term was used at that time period, i.e. the US Middle west. Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota and the the surrounding areas. Furs were still a hot commodity in Europe (and would remain so till Silk hats replaced them in the 1840s which lead to the decline in the Fur Trade in the US). Beavers were still considered the best material hats could be made out of (do to the fact Beaver skins are waterproof and lightweight (The invention of the umbrella had a lot to do with silk becoming the hat material of men in the 1840s, with an umbrella you no longer needed the water protection of a beaver skin). The fur Trade (mostly Beavers) was highly profitable and had been since Beavers were almost made extinct in the 1500s by the growth in demands for Beaver hats in the 1500s, which did not end till the 1840s). Thus the Second goal of Britain during the war of 1812 (and the primary goal of Britain from the end of the Revolution till the Duke of Wellington needed New England Wheat) was control of the Fur Trade. The French had controlled it via Quebec before 1759 and after 1763 that was transferred to the British out of Quebec. Settlement of the Mid-West interfered with the Fur Trade so the British support Indian opposition to west ward movement of Settlers. Tecumseh became the focus point of this opposition starting about 1800, and he received full British Support for his movement for an Indians Federation (Through only if the Federation was on land granted to the US by the Treaty of Peace of 1783). In 1805 Tecumseh's brother religious settlement had been destroyed in the Battle of Tippecanoe but Tecumseh movement was able to revive his movement and when the New Madrid earthquake hit in 1811, Tecumseh said it was a sign of the Great Spirit for the Indians to unite and drive out the Whites (With Support from the British). Notice the US was at peace at this time, but that ended within a year as the Congressmen from the West demanded action against the British for their support of the Indians. Yes, Congress claimed it went to war to protect American Sailors, but mos such Sailors were New Englanders, and New England opposed the War. The Midwest congressmen, with no coast line at all in their districts and not sailors, voted to a man for war to protect these Sailors. The real reason was to destroy Tecumseh's supply bases and those bases were in Ontario.

Just think about it, a second rate power (and that is all the US was in 1812, if it was that powerful) went to war with the Greatest Power in the World (England) over that Power's demand that they have the right to trade with people living in the another country, even if that trade consisted of arms and ammunition to be used against that country.

One more comment, do not bring up the contribution of Canada in the war of 1812. When the British took Ft. Detroit early in the Conflict, the Canadian Militia was dressed up in the Uniform of the British army and the American Commander assuming their were regulars not Militia pulled out of Detroit. British War Gamers who studied this conflict have commented the British had to be thank fold for that, for most of the War Gamers who have really studied this conflict do not think the Canadian Militia would have put up to much of a fight. When this British Invasion was repulsed by the US and the US Invaded Ontario the forces meet on the banks of the Thames river. The Battle is interesting, the Canadian Militia was present but conspicuous by it lack of being used by the British or attacked by the Americans. The Native American and British forces fought well. One War Gamer pointed out that the best explanation for both sides ignoring the Canadian Militia was twofold, the British called them up but dare NOT send them back home fearing their will join their relatives in the American Army, and the American Ignored them for their had intelligence (based on relatives visiting each other during the invasion) that the Canadian militia did NOT want to fight (Most farmers of Ontario had moved from New England after the Revolution during the tough time of the 1790s, they had to swear allegiance to the crown, but almost all of them had fought against the Crown in 1775-1783, on the other hand the leadership and certain key troops had been American Loyalists in the Revolution, thus more willing to fight the American Invaders, but this combination made the Militia unusable and thus ignored by both sides in the Battle of the Thames).

As to the French Canadians, the US raised three Regiments of Infantry out of Quebec during the Revolution, by the time of the war of 1812 the British were NOT going to arm any Frenchmen unless they had to. Given that New England oppose the war no invasion of Quebec occurred thus the only real fights were in Ontario, off the eastern Seaboard (After Napoleon was defeated and sent to Alba but before the Hundred days) and New Orleans.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. No. It was a tie and then we kicked ass in New Orleans before news had spread.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. The goal of the United States in 1812 was end the threat that Tecumseh represented.
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 05:31 PM by happyslug
That was achieved by 1814, the army that did it continued to March to what was then York, now Toronto Ontario. While no official order to burn the city was ever issued (and orders against such actions were issued) the city was burned anyway (Probably do to drunken acts of the member of the Army who wanted to go home OR visit relatives in Ontario). While most Historian said the American Army was still intact when it hit Toronto and as it left (at least in name), it had clearly dissolved BEFORE it cross the Great Lakes back to the US (Other historians openly question that the mob that marched into Toronto after the Battle of the Thames was still an army).

The reason for this dissolution was the Army was Militia based and like all Militia Based Army once the reason the Militia was called up to action was resolved, they wanted to go home (and in the Case of the US Army invading Canada the reason the Militia wanted to fight was to end what they viewed as the threat of Tecumseh). Thus by the end of 1814 the US had achieved its reason for going to war (Tecumseh was dead and thus no longer a threat), and given Britain no longer had a Native American to support against the US (Tecumseh being dead), both sides signed a peace treaty ending the war (The Battle of New Orleans occurred AFTER the peace treaty had been signed but not yet reached the US, thus most Americans heard of the Battle of New Orleans THEN the Peace Treaty and made the connection between the two, but the real aim of Britain in the last two years of the War was to provide support for Tecumseh, but that became useless with his death.

Thus Britain did lose the War of 1812 and the US did win it. The US ended the Indian threat once and for all (Some Indian War would continue till the late 1800s but all are conspicuous by the absence of any FOREIGN assistance or intervention with the Indians, which had been the norm for the previous 300 years). The main reason for this is after 1815 the Native Americans were never again strong enough to be a threat to the US AND were never ever again able to secure any form of of support from any European powers (As had the Native Americans been doing since the early 1500s with regard to the British, French, Dutch and later the American Colonies and even later the United States). Thus the War of 1812 marks the end of the Indian wars where the Indians could get support from forces beside other Indians.

Evidence of Britain losing the war of 1812 was after 1815 all Britain could do was look on (and pass some long term ineffective law) as Canada became more and more under the economic control of the US, including adopting the US Dollar as its main mean of exchange by the 1850s (Through Canada also minted and printed Dollars during the same time period and except during the US Civil War the two Dollars were interchangeable). US Dollars were outlawed in Canada in the later 1800s, more to control the output of Dollars in Canada then to stop they use (Exchange rates were one to one at that time). As the Canadian and US Economy became even more intertwined the old informal exchange rates were changed to the more formal system we have today, but it is more a result of even greater interconnection between the two countries then greater Independence, all of which can trace back to the results of the Battle of the Thames in 1814 which ended any ability of the Native Americans being anything more minor players on this Continent.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. No we didn't.
They burned the capitol. They invaded Washington. Madison had to retreat.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Nope. No one "won". We tried to invade Canada and were pushed out
Then the British hit back and burned down the Capitol, including the White House.

Neither side got territory out of it.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. You should see the world electoral map. Hardly a smidge of red anywhere.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. to have had big ole blue montana up there would have been great. n/t
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. In 2012 !!!
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. BTW, look at the Quebec ...
... Montreal is closer to Florida, than to the top of the Province.

And the top of Quebec is about halfway the most northern part of Canada.

"ALSO" ... look at the size of Alaska. It seems to be about 1/3 in size of the 48.

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kick-ass-bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. thats just the lines of latitude flattening effect
from moving from a round map to a flat one :)
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It looks the same on a globe ... try it.
:)
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happychatter Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm chuckling at the argument here... where are you from ?
if you're British, let me just say, that we marched your asses into old age

peace

:-)

too cute
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. American in Montreal.
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. As an Albertan, I take exception to this map!
We may be conservative by Canadian standards, but have no doubt that we'd never elect a Republican.

And how did Saskatchewan get colored red? Don't you know that universal health care in Canada started in that province?
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Oops, sorry.
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 02:47 PM by palintology
... Will revise it tonight.

But it makes a nice corridor for the Alaskan pipe line :)
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. No prob
It's a good map, and funny. :)
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Having lived in Alberta for 4 years, I take exception to your exception.
Alberta seems to be a magnet for all the Bush-like idiots from the rest of Canada. Well, at least it gets them cleared out of the other provinces.
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. No doubt the province is full of idiots
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 02:50 PM by LiberteToujours
But they seem to be idiots who support the Canadian conservatives; I rarely hear a positive sentiment about Bush.

Although to be fair, Alberta is as conservative as it gets by Canadian standards, so I'm not opposed to leaving it red for humour's sake. :) But Saskatchewan doesn't belong there!
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palintology Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. How many EV's for Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, BC ???
- Quebec 8 million people.
- Ontario about 13 million.
- Alberta about 3.5 million.
- B.C. about 4.5 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_and_territories_of_Canada

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