Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A Theory.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:35 PM
Original message
A Theory.
Perhaps a little tinfoil. I realize we are not used to elections being this easy, or let's say legitimate. It occurs to me with the rapid speed in which the concession speech came from McCain( and I might add, it was very dignified), one thinks that maybe some kind of deal was made.

How many of you think that the smoothness of our Beautiful victory came at a price, the exchange being, "No charges against the war criminals for a whole list of crimes", in exchange for a Dem win.

They will be pardoned, or something like that. Obama will let them off the hook, because at the last hour, the riggers, perpetrators, whatever you want to call it,just weren't there.

Sure there are other reasons why they didn't steal it, but it just came to me as an idea. Or maybe it was more like a Giant meatball from the sky! Either way, thanks for listening!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think they will skate for other reasons.
Obama has a history of taking the high road.

He is going to think letting the Repiggies off scott free is the high road.

Maybe it's the way he tries to bring this country together?

It wouldn't be my choice but I think it will be his.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. And Clinton thought that letting all the treasonous Iran-Contra scumbags go free was "the high road"
what a great move that was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yes. No President R or D, has ever prosecuted the previous administration. Get over it. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Uggh
Nothing good can ever happen in this country for some - it always has to be "cooked up" by the elite. I feel bad for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama will let them off the hook so he can get things done.
Imagine the time and resources needed to persecute the current residents of the WH - Obama's administration and Congress would do nothing else. The problems of this country would be put on the backburner.

The victory was real - I witnessed it in the people involved; people who feel just like I do today. There were too many of us for it to be stolen; too many of us for anything other than what it was.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nope --
I think that was the real McCain coming through, instead of the twisted pretzel candidate that didn't really believe in his party and his running mate, and who couldn't hold together a totally incompatible coalition. I think he was relaxed and articulate for the first time during his campaign, and that it wasn't because he cut a secret deal to get Bushco off the hook.

Of course, you may be right and I may be wrong, but my gut feeling during his concession speech was that it was totally genuine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. No. They couldn't steal it this time. There were too many
election watchers keeping an eye on things and banks of lawyers ready to step in if it did happen. We really do need to fix how we do elections regardless so that we never have a stolen election again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Might McCain have all along intended to throw the election?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I can see how that might be plausible based on his performance...
but I cant figure out what the motive would be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I can't understand how a campaign could be so unintentionally inept.
And then there's that concession speech.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think McCain is mildly senile.
And I think that he was conflicted over his scorched earth campaign strategy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. My suspicion, yes ...
... who in their right mind would want to have to clean up all the doo-doo piles that Dimson has left all over DC?

Its always the Democrats that have to go in, in HazMat mode, after the GOP has totally bisemboweled the national infrastructure.
Republicans - and George W specifically - never, ever clean up after themselves.

McCain let it go. He didn't want to have to deal with the mess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Truly, this makes the most sense of all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. I believe he had some help, They set up Democrats with an impossible military and economic quagmire
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 01:07 AM by guruoo
so they can attack while our leaders are at their most vunerable - spending their time
and energy attempting to clean it up.

More Rove 'brilliance/insanity'?

"That's not the way the world really works anymore," "We're an empire now,
and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that
reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new
realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out.
We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=235798&mesg_id=235957
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Naw... I think we came out in such great numbers...
And the win was so clear, even AFTER all the machine failures and names mysteriously falling off poll records, there was nothing they could do. If they pointed the finger, they would run the risk of all their dirty little tricks being revealed. Not that they shouldn't still be revealed! But that's beside the point.

They couldn't cry foul without laying themselves out, so they cut to the chase in the hope no one would go back and bust their smarmy asses anyway.

PR 101 - cut your losses.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. No
I suspect Bush will pardon the worst offenders when he leaves office. And at this point our country has some serious economic and foreign policies crises to deal with without pouring money and investigations into whoever is left.

As much as I'd love to see some of these turkeys behind bars, I fear it would just turn into a circus and become another polarizing issue that will distract from the work that needs to be done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. No.
Bush will just pardon all the war criminals on his way out the door.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is why
I don't think we should be going after Bush Co. right now . . . January 21, 2009 is a good day. Shhhhhhhhhhhh . . . Bush isn't too bright. If we keep it quiet, he won't have any clue what is going to hit his buddies.


So ask me what I think Kucinich's role should be in the Obama Administration?

The loud mouth we LOVE in the House raising hell and instigating the full circle . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. As much as I love Obama,
my first pick was Kucinich, in my heart of hearts. But he is the fighter we need to stay in whatever capacity he can! Dennis rocks! Lots of other things to worry about now, that's for sure!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happychatter Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. they needed a narrower margin to get away with it
do not strain a brain muscle

if you think we're going to turn DC into Nuremberg, you really need to learn meditation... take up fly fishing or somethin'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Illogical.
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 07:15 PM by D23MIURG23
If they could have confidently executed theft then they would have no incentive to concede to Obama for a lesser prize.

The transition was smooth because McCain got pounded so hard and in so many places that any effective electioneering scheme would have been prohibitively costly and complicated. 2000 was stolen in FL over a handful of votes, and assuming 2004 was stolen it would have happened in a handful of precincts in OH. Theft of millions of votes in 5 separate swing states is a different ballpark altogether.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Pelosi made that deal sometime before 9/11.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Better whisper .
They like to put ya in the dungeon around here for loose lips like that. Just sayin'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. I think you need sleep.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. i'll give obama the benefit of the doubt on having more integrity than that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't think there was any deal and if you are waiting for an Obama Justice Department
to go after Bush, Cheney and Rumsefeld and try to prosecute them for war crimes you are waiting for something that is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER going to happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. Easy?

You think this was easy?

I saw more people working harder than I've ever seen anyone work for a campaign, and I've been involved at a local level with all of them to one degree or another since '88. The '96 election was my low point.

This was not easy. There was tremendous effort. The "score" is as lopsided as it is precisely because of all that hard work.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No, I expressed myself badly,
I didn't think it was easy at all. The campaign itself with it's perfection, made me almost as proud as victory did. I meant that with the last two elections, it wasn't easy to win. I thank you so much for your hard work. My one day at the office hardly compares to all you've done. Cheers to you and all the campaigners!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Given that no President has ever prosecuted his predecessor, this conspiracy theory is stupid.
Also, go fuck yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Nice!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Look.
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 05:46 PM by Occam Bandage
You've just accused President-elect Obama of illegally conspiring with the Republican party, in effect buying an election by selling pardons to criminals. Note that also makes him entirely complicit in whatever crimes you think occurred in 2004, given that such an offer would be enormous evidence of wrongdoing. Note that also you have accused his entire campaign staff of, rather than actually working for change, orchestrating an enormous farce of a campaign as this criminal deal was worked out behind the scenes. Note that you have also implicated the Governors and Secretaries of State of each of the swing states (and the majority of whom are good Democrats) of joining in this conspiracy.

And the entirety of your evidence for this grand conspiracy and claim that the incoming Democratic White House is a pack of thugs and criminals, is this: there was no apparent evidence of wrongdoing anywhere in the nation. Words fail me.

Taking this all into account, I stand by my statement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. None of what you accuse me of was what I was
trying to say. However, if I did offend you, I am terribly sorry.

In Truth, I have nothing but respect for Obama and the Dems, none for the rethugs and nothing they do surprises me anymore. I think a lot of us, never believed honesty and integrity would ever return to elections, but I am more than happy to accept it. Like I said, it was tin-foil. I made a mistake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. We might want to settle for observations
Far from being(at least overtly) a demon cult of fantastic cleverness and invincible webs, the venal, mundane greed blinded, nasty little GOP suffices in matching up exactly what we see happening consistently. Lord knows what lurks behind the secrecy veils and wall of daring crimes. Thinking the worst of the GOP even if it gives them too much credit is something they have well earned and you won't be far off. But, because of the secrecy and much more because of the complicity of media and weak, weak opposition, we will be off almost in direct correlation to our emotions.

They did cheat. They did try to steal. They did use all methods available. It confirms maybe two simple things. When you fight back, it gets beaten down- even if not stopped by plain exposure. It confirms that WE the people are still much much stronger than than these clowns no matter how many institutions are corrupted or tricked- even if the people are not all there in full awareness of what is going on. Join the club, we aren't either, but apparently most of the nation HAS joined the club. We should not be lulled by those things because they are not incredibly strong as they should be to prevent a slide right back into RW clutches behind some bright shiny face who might be able to string pleasant lies together before proceeding to the pillaging.

Vote suppression. Pushing back against the DOJ had some effect. The FBI did not get dragged into it as much as they need. Acorn became the demon du jour anyway, the same screeds employed as in 2004. New things they tried had already been exposed thanks to alert activists. No surprises on that front. No surprises either on vote flipping, making lines difficult, breaking machines, but it seemed reduced in spite of the planned implementation of MORE e-machines and suppression and will be on a steady but very stubborn decline from here on in.

No foreign policy surprise except for small nasty attacks here and there. Things they had to do because we thought they would dare, they did not. Their bluff was called in front and behind the scenes, the money gods caved. It is an incredible shame such frauds, such thieves and liars got away with so much
when pushing back did them in.

Because we fought back, the fear and the scale(whatever its real form while it swelled)receded or was simply overwhelmed, gutted by undeniable public will at its best- if not wisest.

Because we had Obama. Because Hillary helped Obama form a national campaign structure BEFORE the presidential season when the national campaign "gurus" rush in to ruin things. Because Hillary lured the GOP into thinking THEY could capitalize on the negative. Because McCain and his advisers were terrible and the Roves, being fake, fell into another morass like trying to prop up the worst president
ever.

We are back to the simple patterns because the age of the world turned Right-side up has been drowned in failure. Reduced and beaten back and with formidable REAL quality advantages versus REAL undeniable, indefensible failure and crime, we are of a sudden at a new beginning that is no mere campaign slogan,
maybe more true than it was ever in the past.

Between those who were lead to be pessimists(and can't put the brakes on!) and those in denial of the power of fraud lies the experience of how exposed and varied is the cheating the GOP HAD to rely on when all else, even spin was blasted away. it has to go. People were disenfranchised and cheated in numbers too significant to shrug off. "Winning" shouldn't shrug off a dangerous crime that with but a few eventful twists could have left us defeated this fall. We were, by the numbers practically guaranteed Pennsylvania, yet we had to worry about invisible fraud. It must go.

The best way to get at the fraud that attempts to slink away, unchanged, uncharged is to get one big handle on it for immediate action, before the rest of the mess caused by the Coup works to enable a return. The best and simplest, I think, is to get at the root of it all, the way Biden tried to introduce legislation. Campaign finance reform so severe as to sever big money from the scene and enable grass roots representatives of the people a fair route into our government. Maine has been offered as one example. If we do nothing else and all other issues dissolve into an easily delayed stew
that would be the one to get through now- with the first election where people money clout is owed a pricetag.

The next best, before everyone falls to arguing- as in the days when we settled for the imperfect "paper trail" issue- is for comprehensive election protection based on all the wonderful examples of chicanery produced by the GOP. Other issues like the electoral college and run-offs and other fine ideas would be better off flowing naturally from the effects of restored democratic elections.

There was nothing exceptional about the GOP other than their overreaching daring and spite. Our exceptional people are still scrambling uphill against their nasty constant MSM fire. As long as good people, ordinary citizens and truth are exceptional this is obviously NOT the end or even the beginning of change.

Enjoy the elation of another great victory for mankind. Then, let's not ruin the peace with letting the bad guys rebuild. Reforms will force the GOP to field better, more honest candidates such as THEY have been forcing out of their own party recently. It will force Dems to remain progressive amid the temptations of power and their own unfaced imperfections. Taking heads is popular meme here. It won't happen and the opportunity for seizing fundamental change for the future will slip away with it. Concentrating on doing what is right will ironically set the government easily on the confident, unsensational path to grind away at the criminals out of the limelight in a justly businesslike way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Great response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC