In 1877, the mormons massacred over 100 people at Mountain Meadows.

[Shakespeare]

This week, they massacred the basic human rights of millions more.

Do not make excuses for this. Ever. Do not tell me what nice people they are. Ever. They have done unspeakable harm, and we have to find some way to correct what has happened with Prop 8.

And if you're not familiar with the Mountain Meadows incident, read on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

[ikojo]

1. Taking away the tax exempt status of all places

of worship would be a good place to start. It wasn't only the LDS who put a lot of muscle behind Prop 8, mega churches did as well. Seems the huge turnout to support a Democrat also brought out people who saw no problem making others second and third class citizens.

Seems some do not know history. It wasn't too long ago that marriages between blacks and whites were illegal and yes the BIBLE was used to justify those draconian laws as well.

[Chef]

6. Mountain Meadows

1857

[mnhtnbb]

2. There was a docudrama about this shown on HBO or Showtime recently.

September Dawn. It was 'based on historical events'. Not a true docudrama.

Review: http://www.historyplace.com/specials/reviews/september-dawn.htm

[TexasObserver]

3. The Inquisition.

just sayin


FYI - I consider all religions to be nutty, and their adherents all equally delusional. Mormons are worse, however, because they're actively interfering with civil rights of citizens NOW.

[cbc5g]

7. Exactly, I don't care about what people believe, but when they start trying to interfere with rights

They can go fuck themselves. I'll never have any respect for Mormons ever again until they start denouncing their church heirarchy.

[TexasObserver]

8. Until 30 years ago, it was the same crap, except blacks, not gays, targeted.

This "church" only renounced its racist attitudes toward blacks 30 years ago.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

43. May I say something

that I never thought of before (I mean years ago) - I used to think "Let them all believe what they want. they are not hurting me or anyone with their beliefs."

Guess what. I was wrong. Delusional thinking is dangerous.

Believing in a mystical sky being who will heal you is delusional and dangerous.

Religion is as dangerous as drugs are. People use religion the same way they use drugs. No matter what form it takes on.

Start by realizing that the religious dogma of today - which is gaining traction in America, the end of timers, they will end up destroying this country and the world with their bull shit.

I do not suffer any of them gladly.

[yardwork]

15. The Catholic Church heavily funded pro-Proposition 8 hatefests, too.

So far, the groups I've heard that funded the Prop Hate 8 were: Mormons, Catholics, fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Jews.

[gypsylud]

28. sh!--(there can be only one scapegoat at a time)

:think:

[TexasObserver]

31. Yes, they still follow ancient goat herders for social mores.

Never mind that the same book that condemned homosexuality also condemned eating shrimp and pork. THOSE are fine in modern Christianity.

[Shakespeare]

35. Yes, but the lion's share (77 percent at last count) came from LDS.

And this is not a hatefest.

[yardwork]

41. Prop 8 certainly was a hatefest, as were the p.r. efforts in its support.

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I am now greatly interested in the Mormon Church. Greatly interested. For one thing, I plan to learn all about their IRS status and start asking questions about anything that strikes me as odd.

[Occam Bandage]

40. Was ordered and controlled by the Spanish crown as a way of crushing dissent. nt

[LeftinOH]

4. There is a recent film about that called 'September Dawn'....n/t

[arbusto_baboso]

5. And Mountain Meadows happened on 09/11 of that year...

And it was the worst terror attack on American soil until Oklahoma City.

The mormon church is a terrorist organization. Keep in mind that it was 1978 until they allowed black male members to hold the priesthood because their "prophet" received a "revelation" (mostly the revelation consisted of threats from the US government to yank their tax exemption...)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. The Jews killed Jesus. I say we blame the Jews.

:sarcasm:

[Shakespeare]

10. Well, first we'd have to established that Jesus actually existed.

:sarcasm: right back atcha.

[jonnyblitz]

12. Bornaginhooligan is screeching about jews in all these threads

critical of Mormons.

[Shakespeare]

14. Oh, he just likes to screech, period.

And it's why we love him (even when I have to return fire on occasion). ;-)

[jonnyblitz]

17. somebody has to i suppose (love him).

I'll try to be nice but I don't take bigot apologists lightly. :D

I appreciate this info, btw. I never heard about this incident and I consider myself informed.

[pageman551]

19. Jesus Did Exist . . .

He just wasn't the son of God. He was a profound moral philosopher, perhaps the greatest the world has ever known, whose death was exploited by a bunch of opportunists decades later.

Sorry, off topic. And if you disagree, I don't judge. To each his or her own.

[Shakespeare]

I didn't say I disagreed.

I'm just poking back at bornagain, all good-spirited.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. That's true.

Sherlock Holmes proved the existance of Jesus.

[Cults4Bush]

23. Sorry but uhmmm...

nevermind, apparently youre just having some fun together.

[The2ndWheel]

11. Well, this nation wouldn't exist without massive amounts of killing

of people, and rights, domestically, and internationally. So the foundations of the entire world system as it exists in 2008 could be questioned...if one we so inclined.

[Shakespeare]

13. That's very true.

I'm responding solely to the apologists/relativists who want to give the mormon church a pass for the role they took in passing Prop 8.

Hyperbolic? Outrageous? Abso-fucking-lutely.

[Liberal_in_LA]

16. I saw a documentary about this incident.

[SweetieD]

18. Quit all this stupid Mormon demonization.

I'm a black atheist and I don't have any connection or affinity for mormonism. But all this prop-8 anti-mormon stuff is ridiculous. The democratic party platform does not even support gay marraige, neither did Obama or Biden although they said they would vote no on the proposition based on other legal grounds. Prop 8 succeeded not because of mormons or blacks or whoever else is the target of the day but it was supported because a majority of people voted for it, including a good percentage of dems.

[Shakespeare]

20. The LDS contributed 77 percent of prop 8's funding (most of it from outside CA).

And no, I won't stop.

Our candidates, and our party, were very vocally against prop 8.

77 Percent. Fuck 'em.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/the-mormon-fact.html

[TexasObserver]

42. It's not stupid. It's deserved.

Your curious defense of the Mormon church is not believable.

[arcadian]

21. Mormonism is a religion like Scientology is a religion.

As in, it isn't.

[grantcart]

22. Meadow Mountain Massacre was to be the first stage of a campaign to obtain political autonomy

The Meadow Mountain Massacre was an attempt to intimidate the US into leaving Utah alone.

As the Calfornia gold rush brought more Americans to the West Coast Bringham Young knew that they would be surrounded and that they would have to give up their anti-American practices - especially Polygamy. He had one of his gifted assistants a firebrand preacher, start a revival to scare the Mormons in the rural areas about the settlers that were travelling through. They wanted to create the impression that it was a dangerous territory and staged the murder of 118 woman and children and faked an Indian attack.

They thought that the US army with a very small full time professional force, only 8,000, would not want to come into conflict with Utah's malitia of 5,000 and would negotiate a political agreement giving Utah soveriegnty to maintain its lifestyle.

They realized they made a major miscalculation when the US Army moved in force to Utah with the intent of arresting Young. A local Mormon was picked out as a scapegoat tried and executed for the murders of the 118 innocent victims.

The preacher was the first mayor of Salt Lake City. Jedidiah Morgan Grant was my great, great, great, great grandfather the first mayor of SLC, and now our family, with a better Mormon pedigree than Romney, has no family members that are Mormon Church members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedediah_M._Grant

The only justice is that going around and stirring up the Mormon masses before the killings gave the prick pneumonia and he died from it

In 1856, Grant was called upon by Young to tour the northern sections of Utah, calling them to repentance. In the Mormon Reformation of 1856, he toured according to his assignment, delivering fiery speeches condemning all forms of sin and demanding perfection. He issued a call for rebaptism of all the members of the area. His speeches earned him the title, "Brigham's Sledgehammer." The effects of his speeches were felt almost immediately; members throughout the area, as well as in distant parts, were rebaptized to signify their commitment to renew their commitments to the Church and the gospel. Several of these speeches are recorded in Journal of Discourses.


Death
Grant contracted pneumonia after his vigorous tour. He died on December 1, 1856, just nine days after his son, Heber J. Grant was born to his wife Rachel Ridgeway Ivins Grant. Like many early Latter-day Saints, Jedediah Grant practiced plural marriage. He had a total of seven wives and 13 children. His son Heber J. Grant became the seventh President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

His son Heber J Grant was the second longest serving President of the Mormon Church. Among his projeny Senator Bennet of Utah.

[Bucky]

24. Gee, I wonder why Mormons were so hostile... Wait, wait, it's coming to me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#Assassination

[Shakespeare]

25. Oh, you're right. That totally justifies a murderous rampage.

And massive funding of Prop 8.

My bad. :eyes:

[grantcart]

30. You are aware that the events that led up to his death?

He led a mob that attacked a newspaper published by his former righthand man Law, head of the Presidency, was going to expose Smith for among other things child rape. The counter reaction to Smith's attempt to cover up very strong allegations of child rape led to the counter attack by a mob that led to his death. Smith had indeed escaped the original danger but was so conceited that he could maintain hoodwinking people turned his horse around and returned to the incensed crowd. It was not an assassination nor religious prosecution. It was a mob action against a man who had consistently gotten away with massive ponzi schemes and the forced marriage of young girls. While the mob action was not legal nor something to be admired it was based on a reaction to criminal activity not religious beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor



The Nauvoo Expositor was a newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois that published only one issue, which was dated June 7, 1844. The Expositor was founded by several disaffected associates of Joseph Smith, Jr., some of whom claimed that Smith had attempted to seduce their wives in the name of plural marriage.

The bulk of the Expositor's single issue was devoted to criticism of Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement and the mayor of Nauvoo. After two days of consultation, Smith and the Nauvoo city council voted on June 10, 1844 to declare the paper a public nuisance, and ordered the paper's printing press destroyed.<1> The town marshal carried out the order that evening.<2> These actions generated considerable disturbance, and culminated in Smith's assassination by a vigilante group while he was in legal custody and awaiting a trial in nearby Carthage.

The paper's criticism of Smith was focused on three main points: (1) the opinion that Smith had once been a true prophet, but had become a fallen prophet because of his introduction of plural marriage, exaltation and other controversial doctrines; (2) the opinion that as church president and Nauvoo mayor, Smith held too much power and desired to create a theocracy (see also Council of Fifty, Theodemocracy); and (3) the belief that Smith was corrupting young women by forcing, coercing or introducing them to the practice of plural marriage.

Nauvoo's charter granted the city council powers equal to the Illinois legislature within the jurisdiction of Nauvoo. Power was granted to the city council to pass ordinances for the order and welfare of the city. For two days, Smith and the city council debated and discussed the matter. Ultimately, after considering William Blackstone's canon, the council declared the press a nuisance and ordered Smith, as Nauvoo's mayor, to order the city marshall to destroy the paper and the press.<2>

Since the events there has been much discussion as to whether the council's actions were legal insofar as the law would have been contemporarily understood. In any event, whether or not the council's actions were strictly legal, there is general agreement among historians that the press's destruction escalated the continuing conflict between the Mormon community and their critics, leading ultimately to Smith's assassination.

[mitchum]

32. I always thought of that incident more as a consumer group dispatching a con man

because that's all Smith was

[last_texas_dem]

26. So all of those CA voters who voted "yes" on Prop 8 were Mormons?

[dissemination]

34. The broadbrushing by the OP is wrong. Democrats do not need this.

[Shakespeare]

37. 77 percent of "yes on 8" funded by the LDS.

I'm sorry, what's that about broadbrushing?

We'd damn well better know who our enemy is, and from which tower they're shooting at us, figuratively speaking.

[Shakespeare]

36. Did I say that? Nope.

But they did fund most of the propaganda campaign for prop 8. Most as in 77 percent.

Now, if you'd like to have a heartfelt discussion on how that hateful propaganda campaign affected the outcome, I'm more than ready.

[last_texas_dem]

38. How many Californians give a shit what the LDS church thinks?

I just think it's ridiculous to act as if it was the Mormons, regardless of how much money they dumped into the campaign, who made CA vote for Prop 8.

And your OP is a nasty broadbrush that you'd be getting slammed relentlessly over if it was referencing just about any other group.

[Shakespeare]

39. Most of them don't even realize who funded the commercial, and that's UTTERLY beside the point.

A religious group outside the state of California, in violation of the federal tax code, took it upon themselves to run a nasty, hateful, misleading ad campaign that wrote discrimination into our state constitution. A shocking percentage of people polled after voting mistakenly thought the proposition was about teaching gay marriage in school--that's a direct result of the LDS ad campaign.

So you bet your sweet ass I'm going to attack them for it. Any group, mormons or otherwise, that pulled that shit would deserve the full force of our attacks. And I don't exactly see people rushing to their defense here.

I don't give a shit if you think it's a broadbrush. I hold them largely responsible--not completely, but LARGELY responsible--for that hideous proposition passing. Don't like that? Take it up with the hatemongers, not me.

[pageman551]

27. To be fair . . .

I worked at a restaurant for a year as a server and one of my fellow servers was a purebred Mormon, 24 and already married with two kids. And there were several gay waiters working there as well, and he was friends with them and respectful towards them. While I agree 100% with you that most Mormons probably are backwards, bigotted wingnuts, not every one of them is. I think all religions are pretty backwards, personally, but Mormonism is even more so than most. However, I am always hesitant to paint with a broad brush and say all Mormons are evil and anti-gay.
But the ones that backed Prop 8 deserve to be condemned. All I can say is that I hope in 10 years all the states that passed gay marriage bans put initiatives to have them overturned on the ballots and the people do the right thing this time. I say "in 10 or so years" because the dynamics of the electorate will have changed by then. People my age (under 30) are overwhelmingly more in favor of gay rights than those who will die off in the next decade.

[gypsylud]

29. Here! Here!