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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:24 PM
Original message
Help Me Out On This Prop 8 Mess
It has ALWAYS been MY understanding that once a civil right is "granted" it is simply UNCONSTITUTIONAL to take that "right" away.

That was why I was/am so pleased as states "grant" the rights of gays to marry. Every time it happens I think to myself that the whack-jobs have officially lost. There is NOTHING they can do now.

Won't the Supreme Court (even the fucked up one we have right now) EASILY overturn the results of Prop 8? Based on the fact that rights CANNOT be stripped from anyone?

What am I missing?
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing. Prop 8 is going nowhere, bank on it.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Damn, I hope you're right!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Consider the internment of Japanese.
Clearly unconstitutional. Clearly illegal. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway, with the Supreme Court's blessing.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. That is one of the legal arguments that people will take to the courts.
Like you, I don't understand how a basic civil right can be up for a popular vote. It would be like taking a popular vote on whether or not black people should be allowed to vote.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. If the Federal Constitution doesn't protect a civil right, then the states are free to deny it.
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Duh...
It's gays man. We're hardly even human, apparently. We won't miss the civil rights.

Silly Matcom.

As for being unconstitutional to take it away, of course. That's why they changed the constitution to say it's now legal.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Constitutional Amendments can be ruled Unconstitutional.
That is likely what will happen to this. One of the big challenges to Prop Hate is what will happen to the 18K who have been married. That is one of the many reasons why Massahcusetts rejected this smae scenario during the ConCon. Reps and Senators were concerned about what to do whith those already married. Annulments? Forced divorces? Also, there is a I got married in time but you are out of luck. The whole in limbo piece.
Prop Hate will neer be implimented.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Not quite true
An active constitutional amendment, once ratified, cannot be declared unconstitutional; it is, after all, in the constitution. The two points here are "active" and "ratified."

The California constitution makes a distinction between amending the constitution and revising it. Amendments are small changes, alterations in details; those can be initiated by a petition of the people. Revisions are large changes and alterations in core principles; those can only be initiated by legislative act.

The initiative that became Prop 8 was already gathering signatures when the state Supreme Court issued its ruling. At that time, the initiative was described as prohibiting same sex couples from getting married. Once the right to marry had been established, the courts forced a name change; the initiative was now described as eliminating an existing right. At the same time, the question was asked both of the state Attorney General and the state Supreme Court whether this had become a revision of an existing right found in the state Constitution, or was still an amendment. Both the AG and the Court said that the question would have no legal standing until and unless it was passed, and so they could not issue any opinion.

Now that Prop 8 appears to have passed, several groups have filed suits to force that very question. Because the Court found a basis in the state constitution allowing same sex couples to be married, precedent (and yes, there is precedent for this) holds that the measure was a revision and not an amendment. Because revisions require an act of the state Assembly and the signature of the governor before they can go before the people, Prop 8 will likely be found invalid, thus not ratified, thus effectively overturned because it was never a part of the constitution in the first place.

Now, a provision can be ratified and put in the constitution, but not be active. The fundamental job of the courts is to be the arbitrator of the law. Where laws conflict, the courts must resolve the conflict. A constitution, by definition, the body of laws from which all other laws derive and to which all other laws are subservient. In resolving a conflict between two parts of a constitution, one part can be held as "overruled" by another part, making it inactive.

Example 1: The 12th Amendment. Article II, Section 1, paragraph 3 describes how the President and Vice President are selected. Amendment 12 does the same thing. Both are in the United States Constitution, so both are constitutional by definition. There is nothing in Amendment 12 which alters or removes the existing text of the Constitution, so strictly speaking, both are in force. However, the US Supreme Court has held that in all conflicts, amendments override the text of the Constitution and newer amendments override the text of older amendments. In short, Article II, Section 1, paragraph 3 is constitutional but not active.

Example 2, hypothetical: The California Constitution guarantees certain rights to all. It was on the basis of these guarantees that the state Supreme Court ruled that same sex couples have a right to marry. Amending the constitution to revoke those guarantees for same-sex couples violates other guarantees in the state constitution, guarantees stating that those other rights are, in fact, guaranteed. The Court could rule that the guarantee of guaranteed rights was not amended, and therefore overrides the part added by Proposition 8. In short, Prop 8 would be constitutional but not active.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Wow, thanks for that great info.
Sounds, at least to me, that there is good cause for this to just go away.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. interesting
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dhpgetsit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm no lawyer, but...
It is totally wrong and un-American for rights to be revoked by a ballot initiative.

(or any other means)
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JSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. From today's LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaylegal6-2008nov06,0,220763.story

This is not a constitutional amendment. It is a REVISION of the Constitution. There is a difference. It gets a little dicey.
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