Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

And In The Other Room of Tears...(Prop 8)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:38 PM
Original message
And In The Other Room of Tears...(Prop 8)
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 03:46 PM by Plaid Adder
Yesterday I sent an email to a friend of mine out in California. A little over ten years ago, my partner and I drove a tiny rented Geo Metro through the hills of California to watch her get married to her partner. It was then and is still the best wedding memory I have. Of course, this was in 1997, and there was no legal component to it. It was just a ceremony, officiated by a woman they knew, a rite that the two of them had made up together and were celebrating in front of the community of friends and family they had invited. They had already been together for several years, of course; her family was mostly OK with it but her mother was still not prepared to take the relationship seriously. One of their friends played guitar; they exchanged vows; they asked if anyone in the audience had anything to say in support. I said something, and I can't remember all of it, but part of it was this: "It's a hard thing to keep love alive in an evil world, but no matter how hard it is it's always worth it."

After the wedding, they registered as domestic partners. Many years later, when the mayor of San Francisco decided he was just going to start marrying same-sex couples, the two of them ran down to the state house and became one of the band of renegade spouses who then had their licenses canceled out by the courts afterward. And then, when the state supreme court finally made it really legal, she and her wife went downtown and got married--for the third time.

And now Prop 8 has passed, and they don't know whether they're married or not.

In my email, I told them that they are married, that their years together and the experience of that first wedding can never be taken away from them no matter what happens. But of course that isn't going to be much comfort. I know well enough how hurtful and humiliating this is; I've been through it myself. This December my partner and I will celebrate our 20th anniversary together. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since 1988; a lot of changes in our country and certainly a lot of changes both in what it means to be gay and what it means to be married. We are going to be legally married fairly soon in Boston, where it appears that the attempt to amend the state constitution has been abandoned. But of course that won't do us much good back here, blue as our state is. People we tell about this seem surprised we're not making a bigger deal over it. The truth is that it is a big deal, but that it also isn't. Because we know well enough by now that what the state gives, the state can take away. What we have, we hold, and nobody can take it from us. We want the legal rights that other married couples have. But we also do not want to give anyone else, other than us, the power to say that we are not really married.

It is humiliating to be legally blocked from doing something every straight couple takes for granted. It hurts a lot. It hurts worse to see, every time one of these anti-same-sex marriage initiatives makes it to the ballot, all the latent homopohbia crawling out of the woodwork and dripping down the walls into the voting booth. For us, the passage of anti-marriage and anti-family initiatives against us all over the country during this historic election isn't just a fly in the ointment.

I've now seen several threads here railing about the fact that minority voters who supported Obama still voted for Prop 8 in California. I do not dispute the facts nor do I belittle the anger and hurt under the ranting. I will say only this: Yeah, it's tragic that members of one minority group wouldn't see common cause and act in solidarity with those of another. But you know what, it's been a fact of American political culture for all my life and it happens in all directions. I don't see what's to be gained by beating up on each other over it now. Why not blame fundamentalist Christianity instead? Because that's what's perpetuating homophobia, in white and minority communities alike.

Here is the basic problem: There is simply not enough popular support for same-sex marriage in most parts of the country to make it a reality *except* through the courts. Massachusetts has worked out because the vast majority of Massachusettsians either support marriage equality or don't give a shit who gets married--and because it is harder to amend Massachusetts's state constitution than it is to amend California's. Demographics aside, the truth is this: at least since I've been paying attention, whenever an anti-same-sex-marriage initiative gets on a state ballot, it passes. The only way to win against these damn things is to keep them off the ballot.

Why do they always pass? Because the Bradley Effect is not a myth; it is only misapplied. There are loads of straight people out there who are fine with gay people in most every way but still in their heart of hearts do not want them to get their mitts on marriage. Why? Who knows. Nostalgia for "tradition," maybe; some unarticulated emotional resistance to the idea that they have not tried to identify or examine; bullshit about how we don't really need marriage because civil unions are just as good; refusal to let go of heterosexual privilege; I don't know. All I know is that the number of people in this country who can be perfectly decent to gay people on a day to day basis and even believe that gay people are just A-OK is a lot larger than the number of people who understand why marriage equality matters to us and truly want us to have it. And they don't talk about that, because they know it would only lead to hurt feelings and anger; but they go into the booth and pull that lever all the same.

Until that's not true any more, we're going to keep getting pounded like this. I hope that it will someday not be true any more; but it will be a slow process. Still, if you look at what's happened even in the past 20 years, there is plenty of room for hope there. When my partner and I got together, we could never have imagined that gay people would be able to get married ANYWHERE in this country; nor could we have imagined that we would ever have a child together. Let alone that my mother would ever come around to it, which is really the biggest miracle. The change WE need is coming; it's already in progress. But the charge will not be led by our politicians, because they know that marriage equality is a loser for them. Until popular opinion shifts, they're going to be useless to us on that score. Obama, I fear, included.

But Obama's victory does make things better for us, even though my hopes to see him actually working for us are not high. Because he's president, we will not have another four years--or God forbid, eight--of right-wing Christianity screaming invective against us through every channel of communication that the U.S. government controls. Palin's national humiliation in the media and the crushing defeat of the McCain/Palin ticket have significantly diminished the power of the religious right and sent the message to the rest of the country that they no longer have to train themselves to believe that crazy view of the world. That will make a huge difference in our battle to change public opinion about our right to marry.

In the meantime, though, we can no longer get married in California and unmarried couples (of ANY description) can no longer adopt children in Arkansas. And that sucks. A lot.

The Plaid Adder
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Beautiful post. K & R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes it sucks alot!
I am very disappointed that Prop 8 passed here in California. My husband and I both voted NO and can't understand why it passed. I was so happy for my gay friends when the California Supreme cout decision happened. Andrew Sullivan is keeping up on the fight to overturn Prop 8.

Just know that there are people who support gay marriage and will continue to vote against legalized discrimination.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. prop 8 is "projected" to pass...but all the votes have not been counted
it's not over yet. if it does pass, i believe the CA supreme court stop it from becoming law. it is blatantly unconstitutional.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. That was a good thing you said.
"It's a hard thing to keep love alive in an evil world, but no matter how hard it is it's always worth it."

It's true, and it was a good deed to say it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
essayist Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. At the risk of showing great bitterness....
The Civil rights movement was such a long time in coming, and thank God Americans saw above it to vote for Obama. When he was elected I cried - partly out of pride for America and partly out of compassion for blacks who have suffered so heavily for so long.

But I do not see gay rights coming anytime soon. We may end up waiting much longer than "skin color based minorities". Why? I am not completely sure. People saw blacks as inferior and became angry when they asked to be treated equally. Now, thankfully/hopefully, the ridiculous "you are inferior" argument is being put to rest. But with LGBT folks, it is not a sense that we are inferior. It is a sense that we should not even be here. What we get is pure, irrational hatred. I do not see that going away anytime soon.

When I have friends tell me they have gotten engaged, I am genuinely happy for them and ask about their plans. I do not think I will live to see the day when the feeling is reciprocated. You are damned right that it hurts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. You have every right to feel that sting of pain!
You say:
But with LGBT folks, it is not a sense that we are inferior. It is a sense that we should not even be here. What we get is pure, irrational hatred. I do not see that going away anytime soon.


That pretty much sums it up. I wish I could tell you how wrong you are. But it might be a long time before things change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thrift_store_angel Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Did LGBT people just appear out of nowhere?
Haven't we already been waiting longer than to quote your post -- "skin color based minorities"? Haven't we been waiting pretty much longer than anyone? I cannot think of any other group where blatant discrimination is still perfectly legal in so much of the country, and for that matter, the world. Gay and lesbian people have always been around -- as have other minorities. In fact, we have been taking the blame for the destruction of some imaginary city for thousands of years.

The difference between us and most other minorities is that our solution to the discrimination we were facing was to hide. In most cases we didn't have much of a choice, up until fairly recently (in the overall scheme of things) in the United States the discriminatory actions we faced wouldn't have been humiliation, subjectification or objectification, they would have been death, imprisonment, or torture under the guise of a "cure". This is still the case in many parts of the world, and in fact imprisonment was still a viable method of discrimination in the United States until just a few years ago.

Only within the last 60 years or so has the gay and lesbian community dared to even think about challenging the discrimination. So yeah, our civil rights movement may not have been around as long as some of the others, but I think we have been waiting for equality for long enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moonwalk Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. I cannot imagine....
...what it must be like to have a million strangers break into your home and rip up your marriage license. To tell you that you are not an equal citizen, not even an equal human being. I am a native Californian, and ashamed of my state, deeply ashamed, as I've never been before. And I am sorry, deeply sorry, to have failed you and every other gay person in these United States. I didn't work hard enough to change enough minds.

I hope that the courts will right this terrible wrong that so many people have perpetuated. And I hope, in time, a good number of those people come to regret how they voted in that voting booth.

Truth is, we all know why they did it. Proponents of Prop. 8 played the "Kid" card. It's always that way, isn't it? The person will say, "I'm fine with 'them' doing it" (marrying someone of a different race or faith, being gay) "but I don't want my kids to do it!" And all someone has to do is suggest that their kids might do it if they don't vote the right way.

The U.S. and likely humankind will never be truly civilized until we stop requiring minorities to face down the fire hoses and dogs, the insults and death threats and, yes, the never ending court appearances in order to get simple fairness and justice. All I can tell you is that I hope I live to see marriage for gays legal across the U.S. I hope to see this nation become a civilized nation. Till that day, you will have me, at least, marching by your side.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gademocrat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you for your reasoned post.
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 04:52 PM by political_Dem
Now this is something we can work with instead of the threads, trying to scape-goat anyone's community. It hurt my heart reading all the vitriol that has continued to happen as a result of this issue.

Instead, this post is one step down the road of convincing people how Prop. 8 negatively affects the GLBT community. This is a start of making people aware of what is at stake. Maybe then, people can start to care and fight for justice instead of being belittled for their support.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cate94 Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Thank you.
Nice post.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. You're very welcome. :)
The important part here is educating one another. That's the pertinent thing we need now in order to fight back this injustice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RobertDevereaux Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you, Plaid Adder... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Jerry Brown has already said that he's not going to
ex-post-facto same sex couples who were legally married in the last couple of months. Your friends who got married will continue to be married.

In the meantime, I have great hope that the court cases, already filed, will be decided in the direction of justice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. No state should be allowed to destroy
a it joy did not create. Here in Colorado we finally got rid of Marilyn Musgrave, she of the infamous 'marriage protection' garbage. Even the fundies around here had grown embarrassed by her screeching tirades. Catch a clue, California: people are sickened by those who need to have someone to demonize in order to feel better about themselves. A pastor friend just shakes his head and notes that some "christians" redefine the faith to give themselves permission to peek into their neighbors' bedrooms. He's a good guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. The McClurkin incident told me all I needed to know about
Obama in regards to our community.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. yup...it's Obama's fault.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. your little digs at gay people and their allies do not go unnoticed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. you are very wrong..
I am making no little digs at anyone. I am speaking as a human being who happens to be sickened by the blind debasing of any class/sort of human beings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. Republicans of course had nothing to do with it.
How right you are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yep! Dont blame the minorities!
Blame the source of that bigotry. The Mormon Church, several Baptists ones and certain elements of Catholicism. That is who we need to fight. We need to have any friends who claim themselves on the side of progress and also partake any of these faiths that their donations and devotion of these bigoted and hateful institutions are stripping Americans of their Civil Rights. You cant be for a progressive future and be for this kind of shit. you cant be for change and be for this kind of shit.

... and if they still are then please call a pig, a pig...or a bigot if you will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barbarien Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Taking responsibility
Look, no one is blaming minorities per se, but Obama himself has pointed out and criticized the homophobia of the African-American community. And the fact of the matter is that lots of African-Americans (and a good many Latinos) who voted for Obama also supported taking marriage rights away from gay people. (Gay people, on the other hand, were voting overwhelmingly for the first African-American president.) Forgive me for being angry about it, but as a gay man, I'm dumbfounded by the irony of it all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Welcome to DU :)
Seriously... welcome.

There is some irony there for sure but I dont think its where we need to spend the energy as much as the actual scource. There is just no denying (to me anyways ) that those institutions are the one we need to go after. Peoples minds are slowly but surely changing on this matter but when they go to church and get told they'll go to hell just for acting like they condone anything of homosexuality, well... I just want to attack the actual spewers and sponsors of bigotry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Q3JR4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you.
You've articulated a little bit of what I've been feeling.

With the exception of one state in the history of our movement every time citizens get a chance to vote on amendments banning gay marriage they overwhelmingly support them. Most voters simply don't understand or don't care to understand what they're taking away from us. I thought/hoped California would be different, and I see that I was wrong.

I hope the courts do the right thing, but I don't know if that will even be the case.

It feels hopeless and makes me want to leave the country that I've spent my whole life in. I break down whenever I think about the hate that's been pointed towards us. Even though I know it's coming. I can feel the change in the air. If we had had another year in California with equal same-sex marriages, propostion 8 would have failed. We just needed more time. People have to get used to the idea.

The one silver lining that I see is that California's constitution is SO easy to amend. I hope someone starts the process of collecting more signatures to, once again, put the issue to voters in two years time.

Q3JR4.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. the whole thing is just wrong
Edited on Thu Nov-06-08 06:11 PM by jacksonian
the OP is a very moving message.

Two points. First i really think we should abandon participating in these sham "begging the majority to treat minorities well" ballot initiatives. It's self defeating, the more we beg the more they hate us for it and band together, the more we need to beg... In addition, the other side has a big advantage in getting their message out. All they need to do is say "gay" and get people thinking about homosexuality, and the visceral reaction sets in. All the rest is BS reason followed by BS reason followed by BS reason, none of that matters. The pro-marriage message is usually a refutation of these BS reasons, which is actually pointless because the BS isn't the REAL reason, or appeals to what amounts to charity, a right the straight world will never need.

We need to stop playing this game. Boycott this shit. Let 'em pass by 100%. Object to the whole process. Save the money. Don't lower yourself to begging bigots and playing their game.

Second, Legislatures make policy. Courts are for justice. That's where minority rights are established, in court. We need to take the fight to the judicial system and win on the merits. If this prop does not pass we have an excellent case here for unequal protection - the right was established, the sky did not fall, and the right was taken away for no good reason. Open and shut, but we know that the world is not an open and shut type place. But we can't let our fear of Roe v. Wade-type controversy overtake that essential fact - that all the justice we will find in this world will come from the courts if it comes at all.


Edit: grammar relief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Excellent post, Plaid Adder. I am so sorry that heinous proposition was passed.
I'm straight and married. My business partner and friend of many years is gay and married--at least in my eyes. I proudly watched as she and her wife were married by a rabbi and a priest. Friends and family cheered and celebrated their beautiful union. They have raised a lovely, intelligent, loving daughter. They love each other and treat each other with respect. They are both active in their community and have many gay and straight friends. How are they different from other married couples? They are not different.

I grew up in a very conservative, religious, Southern Baptist family. Homosexuality was one of those topics that was only whispered about even though we had family members that we knew were gay. Now, the same attitudes prevail among those same folks. Only now they openly talk about gay people and they treat them as people BUT they still think they are "making the wrong choice". This is true of many relatives, friends, and acquaintances who still harbor the old prejudices against gay people. Every one of them is a church-going Christian--protestant or Catholic. So, I have learned that this is an ingrained, church-reinforced hatred--that's the only way I can describe it. They may say that they accept these folks' homosexuality but they do not. It is abhorrent to them and their religious beliefs. Because societal mores have changed gradually over the last 50 years these so-called Christians have begrudgingly started treating gay people like they are humans, but they don't seem to really like the idea of acceptance of homosexuality at all. This religious-based prejudice against gays seems to be even stronger among black Christians, an attitude that I am totally baffled by. Such is the power of religion to unite the disenfranchised against the other disenfranchised.

In fairness, I must say that I do have friends and acquaintances who are church-going Christians who do accept gays as equals and who also believe that gay men and women should be able to marry. But they are in the minority.

So, until their lord Jesus helps these Christians to TRULY understand what he reportedly said 2000 years ago-- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" --and they accept that as the Word of God, our gay friends and family members will continue to be treated as "the others".



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. I've been trying to find the words for this.
It does indeed suck. And I'm sorry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. Narrow-minded, ignorant, selfish, insular, limited, intolerant, bigoted, close-minded,
prejudiced. Just a few of the nicer words that come to mind to describe any two adults the right to marry....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
21. It is such a hurtful thing
Prop 8 would be ridiculous if not so hurtful.

How can two people of the same gender marrying be a stain on the concept of marriage??

I remember the brief time I lived in Oregon, they had some intiative there about gays.

It was strange because every time you drove out of Eugene-Springfield there would be banners proclaimng how god wanted you to vote for the anti-gay iniative. "Whose god?" I'd think.

I had some friends there who were conservative Christians, and I asked one of them, (who was then in her early twenties) if she would follow her minister's teachings. She replied: "He's not always been there for me when I needed help, but my gay friends have always been there for me. How could I vote against my friends?"

That sums up how I feel too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Susanelle Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. Frustrating!
The whole thing is incomprehensible to me.....WHY on Earth do people have tear down others simply because they aren't the same. Where do they get this idea that their own marriages are threatened by gay marriage as they say? I don't get it, and I hate that people actually have the capacity for such mindless illogical hatred. I do believe this struggle will go on for a long time but eventually, more minds will open. My heart goes out to all who are suffering through this now. Just know that many straight people are behind you all the way & do speak out in your behalf.
A side note, this made me think briefly of Elizabeth Dole's "Godless" commercial against Kay Hagan. Does anyone believe that a time will ever come in this nation where an Atheist could ever be elected to office? I know Kay Hagan is not one, but just the suggestion of an association with non believers was being used to tear her campaign down....
We are moving forward, we saw that this week thank goodness. But we still have a long, long road ahead. Maybe my someday Grandkids will see the first openly gay or Atheist American president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
32. I think that all the folks suddenly "divorced" by Prop. 8...
...ought to include suing the state for alimony in their strategies--with mental anguish tacked on for good measure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
live love laugh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. Obama won't work for GLBT nor will he work for blacks IMHO. He can't.
Because as you said, these are losing propositions for all politicians. There will be no quicker way for Obama to fail than to see him take up sides with ANY group at the expense of general issues for Americans -- homogenous as that may be.

I think you understand what I am trying to say--you already said it.

Love your thoughtful writing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. I wonder
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 01:45 PM by SemperEadem
what would it require to put a law on the books in CA that said heterosexual couples who married in CA could not divorce or get annulments and that if they did divorce/annul out of state and returned to the state, they could be charged with breaking that law... or if they remarried, they could be charged with bigamy? I mean, since marriage is such a "sacred thing" to these religious whack jobs...

Throw them in their box and tape it shut.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC