Why Are Folks Singling Out African Americans And Mormon Folks For Their Opposition To Gay Marriage?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Last I checked they aren't the only folks against it...

We have lots of work to do and singling out this group or that group isn't helpful...


Last time I checked, Steve Young, former Super Bowl winning quarterback for the San Fransisco 49ers and direct descendant of Brigham Young, came out in opposition to Prop 8 as did many African American civil rights leaders...

[Downtown Hound]

1. The Mormons bankrolled it

Therefore, I hold them more responsible than any other particular group. I personally don't blame African Americans for it. More than enough ignorance to spread around all the different ethnicities.

[endthewar]

6. The Mormons didn't force people to vote a certain way

[Downtown Hound]

8. Well I guess they're completely innocent then...

:eyes:

[SunsetDreams]

9. That wasn't implied n/t

[endthewar]

10. But it doesn't stop people from assuming

[Downtown Hound]

11. Ah whatever, fuck the Mormons

I've got no patience with hate groups and I'm really done arguing with their defenders. Being Mormon is a choice, being gay or black is not. All I know is I wouldn't be a part of a church that forks over millions of dollars to deprive other's of their rights, and I have no respect for anybody that does. My cousin is a lesbian, and the Mormons have just taken away her civil rights. I've have nothing good to say about them and they can all go to hell. If there are Mormons that don't agree with their churches position on this issue then they should leave the church as a matter of principle. If they're going to stay with the rest of the bigots then they'll get my scorn as well.

[SunsetDreams]

14. Assume much?

I am in no way defending the individuals who bankrolled or voted for Prop 8. My point is we should not be blaming entire groups of people for this because of something that some in that culture, race, religion etc, did something we don't agree with.

Like I said in my post below, it's just like blaming all Muslims for 9-11, because of what a few extremists did.
I'll take that further.

Did we blame all blacks for OJ?
Do we blame all whites for Jeffrey Daumer?
Do we blame all Catholics for what some of the Priests did to children?
I could go on and on.

[Downtown Hound]

18. Do you honestly think that this attitude is only a few

extremist Mormons? This is the attitude of the overwhelming majority of their church. I don't care about the few liberals they may have among their ranks. They should get out of that insane cult as quickly as possible and every day they don't is a day they aren't doing the right thing.

[No Elephants]

25. Condemning what the Mormon Church did is different from condeming

all Mormons. The advertising for which the Mormon Church paid was low. Even the ballot question was worded in a confusing way. No, we want gay marriage? Yes, we don't?

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. All of the Mormons? Or just some of them

It seems that some people are all too eager to scapegoat certain groups.

[Downtown Hound]

46. How about this?

Some of them bankrolled it, a majority of them supported it, and maybe a few didn't but were too cowardly to take a stand for human rights and walk out of what is a cult of hate. No person of good conscience should be a member of that church right now. But they have nothing to really worry about from me. It's not like I'm going to take away their right to marry like they just did a whole bunch of people.

Fuck the Mormons....ALL OF THEM. If any of you are Mormon and find my words offensive, my advice is to leave your church immediately, which as far as I'm concerned is only one step above the KKK at this point. And I don't waste time with people that are arguing that maybe not all KKK members are really that bad. A hate group is a hate group.

[SunsetDreams]

2. Thank you for this post!

I totally agree with you. It is time to stop blaming entire groups for atrocities that are committed.
It's just like blaming all Muslims for 9-11. It's totally unfair IMO

Instead of playing the blame game for this, take action and try to change it.

[endthewar]

3. It's just fun to blame black folks for all of life's problems

Soon people will blame blacks for not staying slaves longer for the faltering economy in our country. You know, those large corporations could really use some free labor instead of having to ask the government for billions of dollars in loans.

:eyes:

[cboy4]

30. Oh brother, get a grip. Nobody is blaming black folks for

all of life's problems.

[SweetieD]

4. Anyone who wants to blame Black people for your problems please follow this link

Excellent blog posting on the analysis of statistical breakdown of various propositions by Bias-Cut at LJ --->http://bias-cut.livejournal.com/610141.html

Here is her post

"I, too, am pissed the fuck off about some of the racist bullshit (shame on you, Dan Savage) circulating around about how the record high turnout of black voters for Obama passed Prop 8 in California and how horribly homophobic they are.

But let's pretend for a moment that there were no people of color in the U.S. Let's pretend that this past Tuesday, all voters who went to the polls were white. How, then, would the election and the ballot measures have fared?

Nationally
* McCain would have won the popular vote, 55% to Obama's 43%.................

* McCain would have won the following blue states with the following percentage of white votes: Florida (56%), Virginia (60%), Ohio (52%), Indiana (54%), New Mexico (56%), Nevada (53%), Iowa (51%), Wisconsin (54%), Pennsylvania (51%), Delaware (53%), New Jersey (50%), Maine (58%), Connecticut (51%), New Hampshire (54%), Michigan (51%), and Maryland (49%).

* Super blue California would have barely gone for Obama with 51% of the white vote.

* McCain would have won the election in a landslide with a total of 342 electoral votes to Obama's 170.

Arizona
The ban on gay marriage would still have passed with 55% of the vote.

Arkansas
The ban on gay couples adopting would still have passed with 58% of the vote.

California
Prop 8 would have been defeated by only a small margin of 51% to 49%.

Colorado
There is currently no exit poll data on race, but 51% of Colorado voters voted to end Affirmative Action. According to the most recent census estimate, Colorado is 90% white.

Florida
The ban on gay marriage would still have passed with 60% of the vote.

Nebraska
There is currently no exit poll data on race, but 58% of Nebraskans voted to end Affirmative Action. According to the most recent census estimate, Nebraska is 91.5% white.

Two other interesting facts that I haven't heard any of these critics mention:

* In Arkansas, 54% of black folks voted to ban gay couples from adopting versus 58% of white voters.
* In Michigan, 59% of black folks voted for stem cell research versus 51% of white voters.

Telling, isn't it?

For all of the critics who want to point fingers at the 70% of black voters in California who voted for Prop 8, I encourage you to look at this data and think hard.

The historic win for Obama that so many people, millions of white people included, are incredibly happy about? Not only did white voters play a huge role in passing some of these terrible ballot measures, but black and brown voters won Obama this goddamn election, so think for a hot minute before you try to bite the hands that fed you."

See the full breakdown at the source.http://bias-cut.livejournal.com/610141.html

[endthewar]

5. Whites gave us Bush in 2000 and 2004. Blacks fought back harder this year and got Obama elected.

I hope all of those people scapegoating blacks also find equal time to scapegoat whites. Because if this is the game that's to be played, then my subject line is equally valid as well.

[political_Dem]

7. Thank you, SweetieD for that link.

Now we're getting somewhere instead of the same insane BS that erupts in every thread. At least the blatant racism expressed in some of the threads should tell you that we're not entering a "Post-race" era in any stretch of the imagination.

Frankly, I'm tired of being called derogatory names despite the many times I've said I was against Prop. 8 and stated emphatically that I hated it. It hurts even worse to have my people disrespected. The vitriol against Black folks was no worse than it was on more conservative boards. It's hurtful to read it. :(

But I thank the OP for at least asking the question that I had buzzing in my mind the last few days.

[LynneSin]

13. So Civil Rights are for people of color only?

Trust me, I understand that without African-Americans we would have John McCain as our president but it upsets me to think that 7 out of 10 African Americans also took away civil rights for the GLBT community.

On Monday night I was canvassing with a group of African-Americans on the streets of Philly. Another black man stopped by to cheer us on but then had the audacity to tell one of the other black men in our group that he would "Pray that his sins would be purged" because that other black man also happened to be gay.

It was just heartbreaking that this one person doesn't see the hypocrisy.

[SweetieD]

16. look at the actual exit poll data

there are plenty of white people who don't want gay marraige as well. If you would have gotten even 1-2% more whites or hispanics in favor it would prop 8 would not have passed. Don't lay all the blame on black people.

[populistdriven]

23. "all the blame" who did this?

But it did pass with support from our democratic base 

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6460/img5166mz3.jpg

We still have lots of work to do to get equal rights for GLBT
brothers and sisters if our own base, who understand much more
about civil rights than the descendents of slave owners do,
came out in droves to strip away the rights of someone else. 
They clearly didn't see this as a civil rights issue and as
activists that is our fault. 

I recc'd this thread because clearly the education effort
needs to start right here.
 

[quickesst]

28. Okay..

"But let's pretend for a moment that there were no people of color in the U.S."

That would mean Barak Obama would be white, and noone can predict how the election would have come out given that scenario. Funny there is no, or little objection when republicans are blamed as a group, and not just "a few individuals" who do not represent the group as a whole. How can one say if "there were no white people", then present a scenario with McCain winning a certain percentage of "white votes" when that's all there is. Him winning the "white vote" would be a no-brainer, but then, Obama, being white in your scenario, would have garnered part of the "white vote" also, and noone can predict the percentages each would have gained. Remember, in your tale, the histories would have been different, and Obama may still have been the relief Americans are looking for. Logic can be a game killer. Thanks.
quickesst

[LynneSin]

12. 7 out of 10 African-Americans voted for Prop-8

It's hearbreaking that we moved forward with Civil Rights by electing Obama but the this happens. Does someone think Civil Rights are only for a select few?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27584685/


LOS ANGELES, Nov. 6 - Any notion that Tuesday's election represented a liberal juggernaut must overcome a detail from the voting booths of California: The same voters who turned out strongest for Barack Obama also drove a stake through the heart of same-sex marriage.

Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8, the ballot measure overruling a state Supreme Court judgment that legalized same-sex marriage and brought 18,000 gay and lesbian couples to Golden State courthouses in the past six months.

[SweetieD]

15. That is based on one exit poll. The numbers are fishy in my opinion.

If you want to blame all blacks everywhere, then you would think that percentage would have held in other gay amendment propositions? However the data I've seen showed that blacks voted in similar percentages to whites in other state contests on the issue.

And regarding this particular exit poll had less than 2,250 people sampled. In CA, blacks make up less than 6% of the voting public, so that means that a sampling of about 150-180 black people are being used to demonize every black person everywhere as a raging homophobe.

[SunsetDreams]

17. and just what percentage of the total voters were black?

what percentage of the total population of California is black?

This argument doesn't hold water for me.

Instead of playing the blame game, we should do something to fix it.

[ecstatic]

39. there is a huge margin of error for minorities in exit polls

Black men weren't even represented in the sample, and the exit poll only included black women--which, according to that same exit poll, represented only 6% of the electorate.

[crappyjazz]

19. It hurts

to know that some people who have faced discrimination for so long, and who still do, would be willing to vote for discrimination

statistics and percentages can be thrown up and discussed ad nauseum ... it doesn't matter

it doesn't matter how many AA's voted, or what percentage voted, it hurts that even one would

[LynneSin]

20. Thank you - you said it much better than I could

We can throw out there all the statistics but in the end it's a major setback for civil rights. And to hear something like 70% of African-Americans in California supported this HATE proposition, because that's what it is - it's HATE. Perhaps the number of voters that 70% covered might not have made a difference in the final outcome but it's still very sad.

Why do only certain people deserve their rights and not others?

[ccharles000]

26. I agree

[cboy4]

31. Exactly. But of course, we're racist for thinking this way.

:eyes:

[bigwillq]

42. Good post.

Sums it up better than I could. I agree with everything you said and feel the same way.

[political_Dem]

21. Another take on the polls.

This take is from a http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/6/181445/879/849/656127">Daily Kos Diary by rweba. It examines other Prop 8 polls:

First, exit polls are known to not be completely reliable. This was diaried on the front page just a few days ago. They have a high margin of error so we certainly can't say with exactitude whether 70% of African Americans really voted for proposition 8.

The second and more important point is that opinion polls of black opinion on proposition 8 in California showed a lot of fluctuation:

African-Americans were leaning towards support of Proposition 8, although this has been diminishing towards November 4. The October 17 poll indicated that 58% of African-American voters supported Proposition 8 versus 38% who opposed it. ... The Field Poll released on October 31, 2008 however, showed support for Proposition 8 shrinking to 49% among African-American voters ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

Notably, none of these polls showed a 70% support for prop 8 from African Americans. So a few possibilities:


1. The exit poll is wrong and overstates the fraction of blacks who supported prop 8.

2. All the initial opinion polls were wrong (although the article states that such polls have been accurate in recent years).

3. The opinion polls were right and support for prop 8 increased dramatically.

It would be interesting to get further data to investigate this question. But the important point is that it seriously puts into doubt this idea that African Americans are inalterably oppossed to gay marriage in a way that is different from any other group.

You can read the entirety of the authors findings on his/her page by clicking on the link above.

This is also used to supplement the evidence by SweetieD to debunk the exit poll of Prop 8. I hope that other folks follow suit by finding other evidence to debunk the Prop 8 poll. The scapegoating has to stop.

[Pithlet]

22. Is there even any evidence other than that screen shot

that doesn't even show the AA male vote? Isn't that an exit poll? Is all this brouhaha based on that? Yikes.

If those numbers are correct, then I still think it's unfair to scapegoat them to the extent they have been. Yes, it does suck that they voted to the extent they did. But it's no different than the fact that more whites voted for McCain than Obama. I can remember every time statistics like that get pointed out around here, a lot of white people start howling about broad brushing. The AA community isn't perfect. They have their faults just like everyone else. It's okay to call them out on their faults. It's not okay to hold them up to a higher standard then everyone else, and it isn't okay to squarely put the blame on their shoulders when they aren't the only ones to blame. I've felt a little uncomfortable about the level of blame being shouldered on them. And all based on suspicious data to begin with.

[political_Dem]

24. One More Exit Poll

It is http://www.sacbee.com/elections/story/1372009.html">http://www.sacbee.com/elections/story/1372009.html. The pdf document contains a complete breakdown of percentages as well as how many people (by race and gender) were polled. This poll was used for the Sacramento Bee newspaper.


If you look at the document, notice how many Black People were surveyed in the Sac Bee exit poll. Please tell me how you base the opinions of a small group of people and then magnify it to an entire community. I would like to know.



Edit: to add more information.

[WeDidIt]

27. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day BIGOTS Can EAT SHIT

Fuck that cult.

[cboy4]

34. Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

And they should lose their tax exemption status immediately.

[vssmith]

36. My thoughts exactly

As far as I am concerned they can tax all churches.

[WeDidIt]

41. I agree, tax the churches.

That should be a new movement.

TAX THE CHURCHES!

[JVS]

29. Because these groups are outside of the mainstream/ dominant culture and thus easier to attack.

It's a lot easier to go around talking smack on black people than to go after people who are married with children. Even though people who are married with children voted 68% in favor of prop 8.

It's a lot easier to attack the Mormons than to attack the largest denomination in the US.

And if you think that people who are 30 and up are going to be attacked because the only age group that wouldn't have passed prop 8 was the 18-29 voters, you're dreaming.

[nichomachus]

33. Bull -- we're attacking the Mormons because they were the largest donor -- tens of millions

[No Elephants]

35. Aren't Catholic and Muslim at least among the largest religions in the

world? both have been attacked plenty. the Mormom Church is being attacked because it funded the ban and its ads were downright evil, not bc it is small, medium or large.

And you are wrong about the only age group. This is not the first time that gay rights were on the ballot in california and the vote supported gay rights in the past. This is the "outlieer" vote and it is so because of the hateful advertising, phone calls, etc.

[nichomachus]

32. The Mormon Church had an official position on Prop 8 and provided tens of millions

of dollars. They were the biggest single donor by far. Without the Mormon involvement, it's almost certain Prop 8 would have failed.

They didn't "force" people to vote -- but they bankrolled and encouraged a widespread campaign of lies and fear. Almost every ad paid for by the Mormons was a lie.

Did a few individual Mormons object. Sure. but that doesn't erase the guilt of the church.

If any one group deserves singling out, it is the Mormons.

[Cults4Bush]

37. Go study what the Mormon Churches role was in this.

The same with Knights Of Columbus.

Nearly 7 million dollars in donations from members of the Mormon Church and Church funds themselves that totaled over twice that amount. They funded it and any Mormon who supports their church helped to support it quite simply by donating. I think Mormons need to know they worked to strip civil rights from their country men and women. Steve Young is a shining example of what the rest need to do, it is their responsibility not ours to change the church they give their devotion and money to from being a bigoted and hateful political machine into something actually deserving of their love and commitment. So yeah Ill continue to blame the entire Church (not all of the people) for this atrocious piece of bigotry. I will and you wont stop me with such words as were in your OP.

[jonnyblitz]

40. so we should ignore poll results broken down by race and

religion because the result makes some uncomfortable? :shrug:

[Barack_America]

43. I blame myself.

Seriously.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4401809&mesg_id=4401809

Many of us pointing fingers have several of them pointing back at ourselves.

[loyalkydem]

44. I don't think its fair

to blame African American's for this. They aren't the only voting block in California

[BlooInBloo]

45. Mormons funded it. Black folks... well, they're black. Duh.