Should Kids be able to graduate after 10th grade

[DeepBlueDem]

High school sophomores should be ready for college by age 16. That's the message from New Hampshire education officials, who announced plans Oct. 30 for a new rigorous state board of exams to be given to 10th graders. Students who pass will be prepared to move on to the state's community or technical colleges, skipping the last two years of high school. (See pictures of teens and how they would vote.)

Once implemented, the new battery of tests is expected to guarantee higher competency in core school subjects, lower dropout rates and free up millions of education dollars. Students may take the exams - which are modeled on existing AP or International Baccalaureate tests - as many times as they need to pass. Or those who want to go to a prestigious university may stay and finish the final two years, taking a second, more difficult set of exams senior year. "We want students who are ready to be able to move on to their higher education," says Lyonel Tracy, New Hampshire's Commissioner for Education. "And then we can focus even more attention on those kids who need more help to get there."

But can less schooling really lead to better-prepared students at an earlier age? Outside of the U.S., it's actually a far less radical notion than it sounds. Dozens of industrialized countries expect students to be college-ready by age 16, and those teenagers consistently outperform their American peers on international standardized tests. (See pictures of the college dorm room's evolution.)

[Dappleganger]

1. Voting 'Yes', but with stipulations

This former middle school teacher and parent to four (two of them teens) sees benefit for *some* kids graduating at 16 and moving on to community college. That is, staying at home and going to school under the care of their parents just as they need until they are 18. *Some* teens are ready for this challenge, they want this challenge and will rise up to it.

What I am struggling with is seeing this option as viable to ALL 16 yr. olds. IMO it should be more of an option, something which parents may enroll their students in an early-graduation program rather than all students. Also, in order for this to really work well and be more attractive to parents there needs to be more help for kids to go to community college either for free or with heavy state subsidies.

I don't see community college administrations being open to this for an en masse influx of younger students, however. This is an interesting topic to debate, and I'm looking forward to reading others' opinions.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. My husband and I have backgrounds in education and two bright little boys. But I just

don't see them ready for college after two years of high school, unless they cram all four years of classes in somehow. I suppose in theory if you only took a single semester to knock of a class you could manage it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Our kids are already behind worldwide after 4 years of school. Cutting off

2 helps them how??

[Left Is Write]

4. Yes. About two years after 10th grade.

:P

Actually, my real answer is that it would have to depend on the kids and what the competency tests cover. There's no substitute for experience and maturity, though, and I think most kids would benefit from staying in school longer. A good education is more than the ability to pass tests.

[phantom power]

5. Here's my beef: "batteries of tests" do *not* guarantee competency.

I don't have any problem with standardized testing, but testing doesn't *fix* anything. It's just a measurement tool. If you want better education, you have to do difficult, risky things like increase teacher salaries, increase teacher training, reduce class sizes, maybe make changes to the tenure system to increase performance-based accountability.

I'm no expert on European education, but I'll wager that if their children are better educated, it's because they bother to spend the money, time and resources.

[Mariana]

20. Neither does graduation from high school.

All too often, a diploma means that your ass spent the required amount of time behind a desk in the school building. It doesn't necessarily you learned anything while your ass was there.

[ecstatic]

25. Exactly! It just depends nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. Denmark moves students out of high school at grade 10

One branch to business, trade or tech the other goes an academic route.

[Dappleganger]

8. We've hosted a number of exchange students

European students tend to be far more focused on their academics and what they want to do in life at an earlier age, but part of that is because they have a plethora of specialized schools (many tech schools!) for the kids to go through once they have completed certain levels. The students we hosted were French, Spanish and Belgian for the most part. It was amazing to listen to 15 and 16 yr. old kids who already knew what they wanted to do with their lives, what schools they were applying to attend and how serious they were!

Unfortunately, American teens tend to be quite immature in comparison (not just because of the schooling issue, but overall in terms of their ability to conduct themselves).

[tigereye]

14. nice post and welcome to DU!

[Mariana]

17. From what I've seen and been told

European students are treated with much more respect by adults, including their teachers. They're expected to behave like young adults, and so they do. My husband is from England and he was appalled at the ridiculous, infantilizing rules at our older daughter's public high school.

American students, as a rule, are treated as if they're barely human even in high school. Gosh, I went to high school in the 1980's and I clearly remember the condescension and contempt with which we were treated by most of the faculty; it was very obvious that they thought we were stupid savages. It's even worse now, with kids being expelled from school for BS like possession of a butter knife, or sharing lemon drops.

How can anyone expect young people treated in such a way to behave in a mature fashion? When have they had a chance to learn to do so?

[maxsolomon]

29. And that's exactly the track we should take

college prep for some
vocational training for others
apprecticeships for others

either that or move the HS day back to start at 10 & end at 5.

[PRETZEL]

7. 10th grade may be a year early,

after their junior year would be more realistic.

Definately need strict guidelines as to who qualifies for the test.

I don't like the idea of using this test as a way of getting kids out of high school just to be eligible for junior or community colleges. If you're going to limit their choices, let them stay in high school.

[leftofcool]

9. Oh sure, put them on the street at 16 where they can't afford college

or can't get a job because no one will hire them except McDonalds. Once we run out of McDonalds, that will be all

[seemunkee]

10. My son graduated after 11th grade

went off to school after just turning 17. He was ready and motivated and did well in college. 16 is a little young to be moving off to a dorm but a local community college would be great.

[deoxyribonuclease]

11. I started college after 10th grade

The http://www.tams.unt.edu/">Texas Academy of Math and Science program allows gifted and talented Texas high school students to attend the University of North Texas for their junior and sophomore years. While they're technically still high school students, they live on a dormitory on campus and take college classes. After 2 years, students graduate with both a high school diploma and 2 years of college credits.

My younger brother and I were fortunate enough to be admitted to TAMS, and it was certainly a great experience. The high schools were too boring and not challenging enough. We had the opportunity to to take college math and science classes to really accelerate and accommodate our interests.

Many of the students who graduate from this program go on to prestigious universities throughout the US. In my class several went to Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Caltech, UC Berkley, UCLA. Graduates are also almost automatically admitted to UT Austin (and the UT system) due to the top 10% rule (TAMS is automatically considered to be top 5%).

If you are a parent considering sending your child to this program, send me a PM and I can provide you a more complete account of the curriculum and my experiences there.

[Mariana]

22. I tried to PM you.

I'm interested in learning out that program for my 8th grade daughter. She's currently homeschooled and she's a math and science whiz.

I wasn't able to PM. If you wouldn't mind e-mailing instead, I'm at [e-mail]

[soleiri]

12. Absolutely no

“Students who pass will be prepared to move on to the state's community or technical colleges, skipping the last two years of high school.”

All this is is passing the buck to the community colleges and technical schools. Which of course profit from it (tuition).
What they are doing is getting rid of the students in the 10th grade who they believe cannot go on to higher education.
So, who makes the decision on whether a 16 year old is worthy of going to a “prestigious university” or a technical school?

And if drop out rates are bad in High School, what will they be in community colleges where students don’t have any support?

[Mariana]

13. Yes.

If they've learned enough material to handle college level classes, they shouldn't be forced to waste two more years of their lives languishing in high school. Let them get on with their lives.

I also believe that students should be placed in classes according to their level of performance in each subject, not by age. A student who reads at 5th grade level, for example, should be in a 5th grade level reading class, whether he's six or sixteen.

Anyway, the option to leave high school at 16 already exists in many places. My husband and I gave our older daughter the choice at the end of her 10th grade year whether to finish high school or take the GED and attend classes at the local community college, which allowed 16 year olds to enroll if they had the GED and their parents' or guardians' permission.

And this is a bit OT, but I've never understood why, when a student leaves school at 16 and passes a GED test, it is considered a failure of the school. Obviously, the opposite is true; if a student learns enough to pass a high school equivalency test two years early the school must have done a fantastic job educating that student! Why isn't this considered a great success?

[tigereye]

16. what you say makes a lot of sense - some kids are just ready to move on

or they do not fit the "old school" high school mode. If they are ready academically and/or maturity wise (or even if college is a better fit for them) why not give them this opportunity?


:thumbsup:

[deadmessengers]

21. yes, but there are other possibilities

Obviously, the opposite is true; if a student learns enough to pass a high school equivalency test two years early the school must have done a fantastic job educating that student! Why isn't this considered a great success?

I respectfully disagree - I don't think it's quite as obvious as you think, as what you're saying is certainly one possibility, but there certainly are others. For example, there could also be the case that the school did a disastrously bad job of educating that student and the kid was inquisitive enough to learn on his or her own, or that his/her parents recognized the deficiencies of the system early on and made up for it at home, in a part-time homeschooling situation.

I speak from some personal experience here - I quit high school early in my junior year, primarily for personal safety reasons, but also because I wasn't getting anything out of being in school. I can honestly say that I took exactly one class the entire time I was in high school where I learned something - an electronics elective in my sophomore year. I ended up taking the SAT exam about two weeks after I dropped out, got my GED a year before I would have graduated, and started college on time. But, I will say this, as it applies to me: I was able to do what I did not because of the school I attended, but in spite of it.

Admittedly, I am not a typical case - I was, and still am, a voracious reader with a very well-worn library card. I also recognize that not every student has an ability for self-education. But, I don't think that we can categorically make the statement that every educational success is the result of good schooling.

[Lisa0825]

15. I think it's OK as an option, but not the standard.

I was very book-smart, graduated with honors, 8th in my class, involved in lots of activities, etc, but going away to college was actually a big shock to me. I was very homesick and didn't do too well my first year. I think I would have benefitted from going to a junior college near home first, before going away. I can't imagine dealing with college-level pressures even earlier, even if I had passed some test that said I could.

[eshfemme]

18. My school met all state requirements by grade 11 in NY

so technically, senior year in my HS was extraneous. There were 1 or 2 kids a year who ended up going straight into college after junior year. I think it's doable but it might be setting the bar too high if the education system needs a lot of work. But NH is a small state so maybe they won't have too much trouble with attaining that goal.

[renie408]

19. Yes...but I wouldn't want my kids to do it.

My 17 year old son is in the top 3% of his class, will have 34 credits by time he graduates from high school this spring, is head of the academic bowl team, has already gotten provisional acceptance into several good schools without applying, is taking ALL AP classes this year and took only one 'regular' class last year. My daughter is on track in the 7th grade to perform similarly. I think that academically either one of them could handle college level work after the 10th grade.

BUT...I don't feel like my son is socially or emotionally mature enough to be a sophomore in college at 17. I am sure there are other kids who might be, but I feel like adulthood lasts a long time. To be successful adults, kids need a well laid foundation and I think you need all the time you can get to grow up before you head off to conquer the world.

[AtomicKitten]

23. They can challenge the GED.

My niece skipped 11 and 12th grades to move on to college with her friends. She challenged the GED and passed.

[ecstatic]

24. Sure. I don't think I learned much in my last 2 years BUT it

depends on the student. If the student can place out via exam, then s/he should go for it! 16 is the new 18 and 30 is the new 21. :crazy:

[Mass]

26. Sure. Let's make sure that only rich kids go to college and poor kids to

technical schools or even nowhere.

BTW, currently, kids who graduate from college at grade 12 are about 2 years behind kids in Europe and Asia.

[ddeclue]

27. For some people YES...

I was taking Calc I and Plane Analytic Geometry in my senior year, had 2 years of French, a year of independent study in computer science and four years of science and four years of english - I aced out of my SATs and was exempted from Freshman English.

Considering I then spent 5+ years at Ga. Tech getting a bachelor's degree, it would have been nice to start earlier and finish earlier. Over all I was either in undergrad or grad school there from 1984 through 1994 (got my Bachelor's in 1989).

I think that high school should be HARDER if you plan to go to college and those who aren't college bound shouldn't be holding these kids back. Most holders of an international baccalaureate (foreign equivalent to high school diploma) are really on the level of the average liberal arts college junior.

There should be three tracks:

College bound

Non college bound

Trade/vocational

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[seabeyond]

28. yes on one of my children. no on another. n/t

[TexasObserver]

30. Since most high school grads are not qualified to do college work, NO.

The notion that some high school students can test out early is merely evidence of how low the standards have fallen. College is for those 18 and over. It's not just about taking classes. It's about being old enough to have some degree of adult independence, something not present for 16 year olds, who are incapable of making contracts or giving consent in many matters.

[chiefofclarinet]

31. It completely depends

And it doesn't depend completely on intellect. Emotional maturity, personality, and work ethic also factor.

One of my best friends is a freshman at a smallish liberal arts college. She skipped her senior year of high school to come to the University of Iowa and take classes at the U of IA. Instead of staying at the U of I, she decided to go to a liberal arts college, which supposed to be better for what she wants to do. (I disagree, but that is just my opinion.) Even though she is brilliant (she had over a 4.0 in her first two semesters), I don't think it was advantageous for her to come to college early. Though intelligent and works hard, she still is emotionally a teenager and is having homesickness (and also U of I sickness) and is not doing nearly as well academically.

However, as a junior at the U of IA, if I was given the same opportunity to leave high school early, or even skip high school completely, I would have thrived at college. High school was a bore, and what I would have missed my senior year was not anything spectacular. In addition to being rather intelligent (College GPA hovers around a 3.9), I am emotionally older than my biological age, I am introverted and therefore do not need a large friend group, and I work exceptionally hard on stuff. Especially since I ended up staying in-state at a state university, waiting the extra year may not have been worth it.

Yes, other countries have students going to college at 16. Their educational system is built differently and not just K-12. The current approach of colleges in the US (mostly the larger universities) is large lectures with little to no one-on-one contact. There is also stiff competition between the pre-law students and the pre-graduate students in the liberal arts and pre-medicine/pre-dental/pre-pharmacy students versus the pre-graduate students in the hard sciences. It is less about learning for knowledge and more for learning for the exam. This is not the environment for even your above-average 16 year old.

So, to me, considering the current educational system, leaving high school early is an unwise idea for the vast majority of students. Only a small handful would benefit all around from coming to college early, and a vast majority of them already do it. I don't think we need another set of standardized tests to determine whether one of these from this tiny group should go to college early.