Kos: Facts Belie the Scapegoating of Black People for Proposition 8

[slampoet]

A fantastic bit of research for those that would rather find the truth by actually doing the math.

PLEASE give a good read to this wonderfully in depth article. It really confirms that ALL CALIFORNIA dropped the ball on this.






http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272



"There are only 2.26 million Black people in the entire State of California. We are just 6.2% of the entire population in this state."

" There are 7 times as many white people in California as Blacks.

There are nearly 6 times as many Latino people in California as Blacks.

And there are double the number of Asian people as Blacks."

"However, we do know that there are, so far, 10,325,615 total votes on Proposition 8, nearly 80,000 less than the total votes for the main event. For Black people to have been 10% of that vote, they would have had to cast 1,032,561 votes on the measure, whether for or against. In other words, Black Californians would have had to both had an electoral turnout at the polls of almost 90% AND have all voted on Proposition 8 (i.e, NONE could have been amongst the 80,000 who just skipped the Proposition on the ballot) to reach that number of votes.

Now, I am the first to concede that Black folks did indeed turn out in heavy numbers on Election Day. It was a thing of beauty. I cried when I got to the polls that day and saw lines I had not seen in decades. Honest I did. The first of many sets of tears I have shed over the election, including those shed when I learned that Proposition 8 had passed, and those shed since as I have watched the white racist vitriol and scapegoating that has taken place here at DailyKOS – where folks claim to be liberal – ever since.

But only a fool would believe that 90% of any voting demographic turned out on Election Day. Such a thing has never happened in our history. And it never will, since even in a country that has mandatory voting like Australia (i.e. you can actually go to jail if you don't vote long enough) they don't get more than 95%.

And it did not happen on Tuesday, either, when only 60.9% of the entire California electorate bothered to cast a ballot."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Naturally.

This was always clearly racist scapegoating from the start.

Anybody who participated should be ashamed. And shunned, IMO.

[renie408]

2. Amen. Its the old 'divide and conquer', pitting groups of people against

each other.

[slampoet]

4. Whoa! Scary double Amen.

[nc4bo]

109. It is for the best and extremely important that people read these words and understand

them.

Divide and conquer has some very deep,deep,deep, D.E.E.P. roots.

Wish individuals posts could be recommended.

[slampoet]

3. Amen.

[tekisui]

7. It was intended to divide.

The Democratic Party is diverse coalition. One of the risks is potential divisions, within.

We aren't like the white boys club in the puke party. No diversity, no division. They have rich white guys and poor white guys that are too stupid to realize they are being used by the rich white guys.

I am proud of the diversity in the Democratic Party, even when we go at each other from time to time.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. I'll give an amen to this post too.

Still, we should all be reasonable enough people, as like-minded progressives, not to take such bait. I realize that we are, in many ways, a conglomeration of like-minded, but single issue voters - which is exaggerated greatly by gathering the most fervent of them at DU. People need to take a deep breath, however, and realize that most DUers are not the problem, but are part of the solution, even if we disagree on one particular issue.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. Well, I don't disagree with you.

I would say for the record, however, that for the people directly impacted by this issue that it hit them very, very hard. That's not any kind of justification to the scapegoating and the melodrama, but it is a reason. I got into a "shouting match" (if one can so be called in an online forum) with another poster simply because I said I didn't think most people really care that much about this issue. And I don't think most people do - it's not anywhere near the average person's top 10 of issues to care about. But I was a hateful asshole for saying it, apparently. Sure, I was pissed about being called such, but I've since decided to just take it in stride. I'd be pretty pissed off at everyone and everything too if my civil rights had been taken away.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Prop. 8's passing is a perfectly legitimate reason to be angry.

Hell... Prop. 8's passing makes us morally obligated to be angry.

But there's never any excuse to be stupid. And scapegoating minorities is always just plain stupid.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. Again, I don't disagree.

Just sayin' how it is. Sad that intolerance seems to only breed more intolerance at times.

[Why Syzygy]

96. It IS a very important issue.

So is illegal wiretapping, illegal wars, massive debt, crony-ism ...

Now that we have someone capable of dealing with the death threats facing all of us, I expect this issue to receive MUCH more importance.

[redqueen]

13. ...

:thumbsup:

[Blue_Tires]

37. it also didn't escape my notice that

many of the DUers posting the same scapegoat story 100 different times were names I don't regularly see around

[Starry Messenger]

74. Exactly. That line of BS has been all the rage of the right wings blogs.

The media wants to divide us. They must be laughing themselves sick over it on the week of our greatest triumph we are tearing ourselves in shreds. :(

[AtomicKitten]

5. I must say I was dismayed to see the scapegoating here at DU.

We really are in this together.

[Solomon]

38. Me too. It was really pissing me off!

I'm still kind of angry about it. Never takes much to open that scab, even with so-called "progressives".

umo let it go tho. Thanks to OP for posting the article.

[AZBlue]

40. I was horrified by it.

It really made me angry.

[Kahuna]

113. So am I. While I completely understand their anger hurt and frustration..

that does not excuse the barrage of insults against AA DUers who are supportive of quest to obtain full equal rights. I myself have been the target of such insults. So, I'm just hiding those threads that meant to lash out and insult.

[Ian David]

6. Thanks for sharing this.

We need to remember: There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Over the next few days, there will be more numbers and more analysis, and we will get a better idea of what REALLY happened and WHY.

People need to chill before they start scapegoating.

We need good data NOT to scapegoat, but so that we can find a clear path to FIXING THE PROBLEM.

[RollWithIt]

10. Not surprising....

Too many like to point fingers before they really know the answer.

[nichomachus]

14. Saying that Blacks voted 3-1 for Prop 8 is a fact -- not scapegoating n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. There's an old Hebrew proverb.

"A half truth is a full lie."

[nichomachus]

22. And there's an American proverb

"That's not a half a truth."

What the hell are you talking about -- it's a fact. It may make you uncomfortable, but it's a fact.

[izzybeans]

25. And as the Kos Diary demonstrates they make up the smallest % of

Yes votes of the major demographic groups.

Why not pick on the 10 times more whites that voted yes? It's odd how orchestrated this has been.

The trouble is that a majority of Californians voted for this, regardless of their ethnicity (with exception to white women-which was damn close to 50% yes on this). That's a sad state of affairs. Attacking one group, the smallest group, as the problem is scapegoating and divisive; counterproductive to the entire cause of equality.

An entire culture needs to be changed with regard to equality on this issue. it's not just a "black thing".

[Ediacara]

87. Whites voted 600% for prop 8?

[izzybeans]

91. Math is simple. The state is 6.2% African American. Figure it out.

[izzybeans]

92. And a hint: You will need to use Real Numbers to find a clue.

[Karenina]

28. And this FACT means what in the BIG picture???

:shrug:

[slampoet]

31. Funny how when i google search "That's not a half a truth" I get Zero results.

I guess you are just lying because you have no case.


Nice to see you are willing to make up stuff just to "win".


Did you study debate from JOE THE PLUMBER?




PS - If you actually read the article you would know you are wrong. Instead you are showing us you are willing to be ignorant and force others to PROVE YOU WRONG, which i just did in the post below. #26

[Solomon]

68. I didn't even bother to look it up. I knew he made that up. LOL

Never heard it before.

[slampoet]

26. Yes it is and here is the part YOU DIDNT READ that tells why.

You might have missed it since it is the First Thing Mentioned in the article.







"Factually Unsupported Myth #1: CNN’s 10% Black exit poll sample accurately reflects the actual distribution of voters on Proposition 8.

Each and every argument I’ve read since Proposition 8 passed that lays blame on Black people --- whether only like the worst of the haters or even primarily -- for the passage of Proposition 8 starts with CNN’s exit poll statistics about Proposition 8 at its foundation. Yet anyone who knows anything about the demographics of the State of California – or anyone who spent ½ as much time looking up actual data as ranting all over the free world about what "Black people" did "to gay people" (as if those groups are wholly separate, telling you a lot about the racism that underlies the argument) would know that 10% simply defies reality, unless a million or so Black folks snuck into the state just before the election so they could say they cast their vote for Barack Obama on sunny California shores.

But even if you are not like me, not an actual resident of the state and willing to do my homework before spouting off, it did not take any study to figure out what was the problem. Indeed, if you read CNN’s own explanation of its exit polling/projection process, it is clear that CNN makes no claim that the distribution of folks which it exit polled about Proposition 8 was necessarily reflective of the actual racial percentages of the California electorate who voted, not even in those places that CNN actually exit-polled in. From CNN’s own website about its methodology:

The process of projecting races begins by creating a sample of precincts. The precincts are selected by random chance, like a lottery, and every precinct in the state has an equal chance to be in the sample. They are not bellwether precincts or "key" precincts. Each one does not mirror the vote in a state but the sample collectively does.
The first indication of the vote comes from the exit polls conducted by EMR. On the day of the election, EMR interviewers stand outside of precincts in a given state. They count the people coming out after they have voted and are instructed to interview every third person or every fifth person, for example, throughout the voting day. The rate of selection depends on the number of voters expected at the polling place that day. They do this from the time the polling place opens until shortly before it closes.

What's missing from this picture?

CNN has left us without a critical piece of information necessary to establish the validity of its sampling on Proposition 8: precisely where the network exit polled in California. It simply says that "the aggregate sample is accurate" but has not provided they key piece of information necessary to actually prove it.

This matters for a reason. Specifically, in a state where different demographic populations are reasonably-evenly spread throughout a state, which does not also have dramatic divergences in political ideology which depend on where you live within the state, CNN's methodology might permit it to make a truly accurate statement about the percentage of voters in total who voted on a measure state-wide.

That, however, is not an accurate description of the state of California, as anyone who lives here knows.

In California, virtually all of this state's Black folks live in just 9 of the state’s 58 counties:

Alameda County (13.7% Black)

Sacramento County (10.5% Black)

Los Angeles County (9.6% Black)

Contra Costa County (9.5% Black)

San Joaquin County (8.0% Black)

San Francisco County (7.2% Black - although this number has plummeted and will plummet more after redevelopment of the last "Black neighborhood", Hunters' Point)

Riverside County (6.6% Black)

Kern County (6.3% Black)

and

San Diego County (5.5% Black).

The vast majority of the counties in this state have a percentage of Black residents of between 1 and 2% (and several have far have less than 1%).

When you know that about California, you know that CNN's "random selection of precinct" method doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense if what you’re trying to do is actually know what Black voters are doing at the polls.

Frankly, in a state whose political leanings of the state are quite red/conservative except for a few pockets of population (which state unleashed Ronald Reagan on the nation again? Any guesses?), choosing precincts to exit poll "by random selection", and then selecting targets by simply counting either 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 5 – with no attempt to ensure that you are getting an accurate correlate by race -- is a recipe for statistical disaster if what you are trying to do is make a claim about not only how many Black people actually voted, but what those Black voters did, or did not do, on a particular matter.

(In this case, the disaster has in fact occurred and unleashed hateful anti-Black rhetoric from white gay bloggers and others that is going to set the cause of gay people back a long fucking time in the Black community if it doesn’t get in check.)

Finally, when was the last time you heard of an exit poll that measured voters by mail? In another state and in another election, not including votes by mail might not matter so much. But in California? In this election? It is a huge omission of data. Since an estimated 4,000,000 voters in California are registered as "permanent absentee voters.". It is estimated by the No on 8 Campaign that 3,000,000 absentee votes were cast in California for Tuesday's election. We are not even going to discuss early voters, since I cannot find a statistic on them right now other than to note that a lot of California voters cast their votes before Election Day. So who knows how those two groups cast their votes on Proposition 8, their racial makeup, or anything else?

I don’t. Neither do you."

[marlo]

27. No, it's not "a fact." Not even close.

Saying that 144 of the 240 black respondents to the CNN exit poll voted 2.3 to 1 for prop 8 would be a fact.

What's that old adage about damned lies and statistics?

Regardless, this is just like the primaries. It proves the party is a loose coalition of interest groups who'll turn on each other in a second when the chips are down. That's why I'll never enthusiastically support democrats. I've taken enough racist BS from Conservatives. I'm not swallowing the same from "Progressives" too.

[genna]

56. Loose coalition of interest groups who'll turn on each other in a second when the chips are down

You sound like you believe other groups stick together better?


Did you see the John Stewart skit with Larry... where he was talking about being snooty and looking down on other people?


This Prop 8 reminds me of that except Blacks are cast as the ones who are full of disdain for GLBT.

I'm not buying it. Once I watched Democracy Now and started reading more about the groups who aligned themselves with the GLBT to get rid of the ban on gay marriage, I didn't feel bad anymore.


I'd like to know why we should have to keep proving we are down, when we have already done the work.

[SweetieD]

89. Here here. An exit poll is not a FACT! if they were facts Kerry would be President.

[AZBlue]

41. You're cherrypicking facts, omitting crucial information & slanting the story.

If you don't want to call it scapegoating, then let's really define what you're doing in detail.

[XemaSab]

15. Word

Frankly, political organization in the state is so poor we're lucky Obama won the state.

[Lumpsum]

16. Black, white, Asian, Latino - it doesn't matter

If you voted yes, you should be ASHAMED.

[slampoet]

23. Please don't say "YOU"

Very few of us voted in California and even fewer voted yes and still fewer will read your post.....

...to the point that there is no reason to point at anyone here at DU.

[jmm]

18. Every community has problems that need to be addressed but

without a good understanding of the real problems we can't effectively address them.

The same company that did this year's exit polling got it wrong in 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006. They have a a history of problems and for every study that claims to back up this year's polls I can find one that doesn't.

[bliss_eternal]

111. Wow--thanks for the links.....!

:thumbsup:

Good work!

[Psyop Samurai]

19. Well, I don't know what happened at DailyKOS...

...but I reject the premise that what happened at DU was "white racist vitriol and scapegoating". That is counterproductive bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4405606

[GreenEyedLefty]

20. 61% turnout in CA? That's terrible.

What gives? Was the weather bad on November 4?

[cooolandrew]

21. Exactly, I know it was a ruse to splinter the party . They are using divide and conquer again.>

California is expensive to live in so by logic has a low AA population.

[crappyjazz]

24. Scapegoating?

That suggests that the gay community is blaming an entire race for a few that voted in support of Prop Hate. I'm not buying it. They/we are NOT blaming an entire race, they/we are angry at anyone that voted for this bullshit. I am particularly heartbroken though that ANY African American would vote for legal discrimination against another minority.

All the numbers show is that there were indeed African-Americans who voted for Prop 8 in California. To point this out and be upset, hurt and disappointed by this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

I've read lots of threads on this today and the point that seems to be missed is not how many AA people live in CA or how many voted, or that they were lead astray by their clergy or the Bible, or whatever else ... what hurts is that minorities who have suffered through the most reprehensible legal discrimination were FOR legal discrimination on others.

And those saying that they were lead astray by religion and Bible and clergy ... well excuse me but I'm not buying that either. Couldn't we then say that white supremacists were just lead astray by the same? The Bible/religion was used to support racism, slavery and a whole host of racist acts, laws and discrimination and I'm sure no AA agrees with that, do they?

I'm sorry that some view our anger, hurt and disappointment as "racism", but it is not that at all, and I'm not going to sit back and let that be the new meme of the hour.

[cooolandrew]

29. I think pointing it out by race isn't helpful. AA's have the right to be as >

dumb as any other race(not that every AA voted wrong on this though). I say that as a black person. The main factor here is the mormons that put it on the ballot and the misleadin ads they used to pass it.

[crappyjazz]

32. The reason race is being pointed out at all

is because of the fact that those discriminited against for whatever reason one might think would lead them to be against discrimination of any kind

That is what is baffling. And I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the religion shit.

[ampad]

71. As a black person

I say that you are spot on. Please folks do not blame the ignorance and bigotry that some black folks displayed on Nov 4th solely on religion. Black people can be just as bigoted as the next race. I'm sorry to say it, it pains me to say it but it is true. It pains me even more to see black people (people who know what it feels like to be discriminated against) voting for a proposition that discriminates against others. With that said I do not like to see black people taking all the blame for this one. Of course black folks should know better ,however it is obvious that some do not give a damn, and that is a shameful.

[Kahuna]

114. I agree with you 100%. nt

[cooolandrew]

108. It's not baffling at all really Gay Republicans do it all the time, the race thing is irrelevant >

It's more about the mormons that put it on the ballot and used deception to get people to vote the wrong way.

[jonnyblitz]

33. I am going to let the smug assholes that think only white bigots

should be called out continue to think they are in the right. I think the stats show an alarming trend and it should be addressed but I guess other things are more of a priority. I am done with this issue on this board.

[slampoet]

34. You are right to think we should call out gay bigots too, but I am not going to do that.

I had a list of MANY incidents where gay bars have refused to accept Black patrons but i thought this article dissecting the numbers was more positive.

[Chulanowa]

39. I think "the stats" tell us the way 243 black people voted

To extrapolate their numbers to the entire population of blacks in California is to assume they all think the same.

[obama44]

42. Blacks didn't take away gay rights

People need to wake up and stop trying to scapegoat blacks.

[crappyjazz]

43. Did you even read my post?

Or did you just read the subject line?

Seriously, I didn't say that blacks took away gay rights.

Unless I type subconsiously in backwards masking, I'm pretty sure I didn't.

[obama44]

45. Yes, I read it. I thought the whining was actually kind of cute and endearing, but

blacks didn't take away gay rights. We didn't cause the global economic crisis either.

[crappyjazz]

46. Whining ...

wow ... just wow

[obama44]

48. I was shocked when I read that post of yours as well.

How did the Lakers fans vote on this proposition? What about the Clippers fans? Should we boycott one of the NBA teams if their fans disproportionately voted in favor of this proposition? What about white males over 6 feet tall? Should they be on the chopping block next?

Yep, all of this makes perfect sense. :crazy:

[genna]

57. How are you going to make sure Cali AA come with you the next time after you've pointed to them as

THE PROBLEM this time?


I will say that it is difficult to gain support from a different group when you are calling them out of their name. My example is the NAACP versus some not so conciliatory Black groups won the day because no white group wanted to be the PROBLEM or RESPONSIBLE for segregation, for inequity, or for racism.


As an AA outside of Cali, I am irritated at the logic used to say 2.26 million people tanked the fate of gay marriage when it took more than that to pass the ban. Surely someone can do the math on that.

[political_Dem]

66. Exactly. n/t

[goclark]

102. How should we win friends and influence the feelings on this vital

issue?

I am not Gay yet a big supporter to the cause and even I am getting mighty tired of this bashing of African Americans.

I am an African American women and I am extremely disturbed that the old "crabs in a barrel " theory is working beautifully for those that VOTED YES!

I bet they are happy as clowns that the GAYS now hate the African Americans! :puke:

Here I am supporting this issue and have to read thread after thread about what my Race did to Gays.

What is being offered to ALL those that were stupid enough to vote Yes?

What is being done to educate them and win them over to the side of Justice?

Those of us that seek justice on this issue need to work in a positive mode.
How could this bashing possibly win over the YES voters? How!

Addition: Can someone give me a link to a Positive website that seeks to educate YES voters?

Thanks

[HamdenRice]

76. "Blacks are now my enemy"

Obviously you haven't been reading all the racist bile that has been unleashed by this issue, and the phrase in the subject line isn't even the most racist thing I've read today.

[crappyjazz]

86. You're using quotes

not from my post, so what are you referring to in your response to my post?

[Raineyb]

94. He's referring to the scapegoating that you keep denying exists. nt

Regards

[TexasObserver]

30. As I've been saying, blacks did not pass the resolution in California.

This article puts to rest the LIE that they did.

And yes, it is scapegoating, and intended as such. Welcome to the first wedge issue used to try to undermine the Obama presidency.

[democracy1st]

35. K & R

[Window]

36. I kept wondering how people were coming up with those numbers when the entire pop.

of Blacks in the US is what, 12.8%, and when broken down to states...

[slampoet]

44. They are less than 7% in California.

[Window]

50. Yes, I know.

[blondeatlast]

47. As one who campaigned hard against AZ's own Prop H8 (102), thank you.

hat a letdown seeing that kind of spew first thing Wednesday morning--and worse, how many Uers were so quick to take the bait. slowly we seem to be realizing why it happened but it can't happen soon enough.

Way too many people responsible for theis mess (not to mention the cynical exploitation of a valuable democratic tool, the referendum) and we need to look at what is RALLY behind this travesty or we'll never get ahead.

[blondeatlast]

49. Many here are quick to forget how "the gays" were (supposedly) to blame for our loss in 2004.

But coming from the luxury of detachment from both groups, I spotted the similarities right away.

Here we go again--will we ever learn?

[Neecy]

51. First, let's get over the 'scapegoating' crap

There were lots of reasons Prop 8 passed - money flooding in from outside the state, poor organization on our side, and - this pisses me off - a 50% voter turnout in San Francisco county. The turnout alone didn't decide this, but if we don't vote we can't really point our fingers at anyone.

When the CNN exit polling came out that showed that only one demographic - African Americans - had a huge 70/30 differential I think people were hurt and upset by this. I know many gay and lesbian Democrats - myself included - who worked our asses off to help elect Obama. But nowhere did I see anyone blaming the AA vote for the passage of Prop 8. We would have been screwed no matter what. I didn't see any 'scapegoating'. I saw a lot of hurt. I guess we aren't allowed to feel anything about our rights being taken away - is that correct? Just shut up and not ruin the celebration?

[slampoet]

52. Please READ the article then post. It will make you and i feel better.

Please, the truth is in the numbers.


The numbers will help you win next time. The anger won't.


My sister's wife, who is an engineer and understands the math, put it this way.


"If you blame blacks it is because you want to blame them, and the Mormons wouldn't have it any other way."




Please read the article instead of picking apart the word "scapegoat". Stop the semanticide.

[Neecy]

55. I did read it

Actually, I read it first over on Kos. I don't question anything in it at all (except for the many incendiary references to gay people as 'bigots').

And I said specifically that I don't blame African-Americans for this piece of shit passing. I said we were screwed no matter what. I fully accept the statistical analysis of the original post and I knew the night it passed that African-Americans were too small of a percentage of the California population to have been much of a factor in the final numbers.

What I *did* say is that the percentages were distressing only because they were so completely lopsided. This caused some hurt and sadness election night that has been translated now into 'scapegoating', which I still say is crap. Being hurt over a 70/30 split is different than blaming any one group for our loss - I know that isn't the case. But it does hurt, even though we're apparently not supposed to say this.

[crappyjazz]

53. How dare we eh?

Nod and smile, nod and smile

[Raineyb]

54. Did you READ the article?

If you didn't see anyone blaming the black vote for the passage of Prop 8 then you haven't been paying attention. It's right in THIS thread, not to mention the other threads floating around over the last there days. No one said you weren't allowed to feel hurt but how exactly does blaming all black people 1. not count as scapegoating and 2. help the cause any?

Regards

[crappyjazz]

58. Show me a post in this thread that blames blacks

for passing Prop 8

[LostinVA]

61. I know, I'm tired of seeing that

[Raineyb]

69. Here's some threads. I've been pointing this shit out for 3 days

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=7785900#7785950

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=7785900#7786404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4403929

So don't tell me it doesn't exist. I'm sure if you wait long enough it'll show up in this thread too.

Regards

[Number23]

83. You missed one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7789242#7794787

And this person posted this in the thread created by Skinner "congratulating" (which I still don't quite understand) blacks on Obama's victory. And this was what the post looked like AFTER it was edited.

I had to search for ten minutes to find my jaw so that I could close my mouth again. I'm staying the hell out of this topic but I do think this post should be added to your list.

[dbmk]

95. That post didn't place the blame for the result either.

It questioned the support from one group. Regardless of size or impact.

[Raineyb]

97. I'm not surprised. I stayed out of that thread because I didn't know what to say.

Yes this was a historic election but somehow congratulations didn't seem appropriate. I could find others but I didn't want to wade through the posts.

Regards

[dbmk]

90. Actually i did not see any of those threads blaiming black people for the _passing_ of Prop 8

They questioned why that subset of the voters would vote so overwhelmingly in favour of it - especially given that one would think the issue of freedom and same rights for all should have special meaning to them.

I did not see any blame for the final result. But please point me to it.

Yes, the main problem is bigotry, plain and simple. But when you see that be represented in numbers outside the norm in a specific group, then its fair to question whats wrong there. Especially from a group that you think is part of the "family".

If a kid that has been bulied takes part in bullying, you as a parent would say "I thought you, of all people, would know better" - even though you know the other kid would have been bullied anyway.

That being said, given the number of threads on it and the focus on it, I can understand why many felt it was being unfairly singled out.

[Raineyb]

99. Let me see if I got this right

Someone posts a title Your Gay and Lesbian Democrats suffered a defeat at the hands of Dems

And someone posts a reply finishing the sentence "At the hands of black dems"

I point to this as an example of blatant scapegoating of black people but it's not good enough. What do you want? How much more blatant does it need to get because that one seemed extremely obvious to me.

Regards

[dbmk]

101. I did not see the reply, granted

I did not think the OP in question was represented right though.

But even so, the term "at the hands of" does not necessarily mean that particular group delivered the death blow. But that they had a part in it. And when black dems was overrepresented, something is at least worth discussing.

Has that been done in a constructive way? As far as I can tell it has not.

But lay that at the feat of people being justifiably VERY angry and upset (to put it mildly) at having hard fought for civil rights taken away from them - and finding out that people they thought would be friends had a part in it.

[genna]

59. So Obama is transcendant when you want to feel good about the direction of this country,

and a favor YOU DID FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY when you are pissed.


Sure, I'd like to hear more from you when you are hurt especially if you are going to give us pearls like that.


One of the reasons HRC tore her britches with the AAs I know during the primary is because she told more of the truth when she was embattled than the pretty lies most tell when they are comfortable. If you supported Obama during the primaries because you were doing black people a favor and not because you thought he was the best person for the job, then you should be prepared for major disappointment because he will attempt things that will fail during his term of office.

[LostinVA]

62. That isn't what she posted and you know it -- it's about unity, or it's supposed to be

[Neecy]

67. Don't twist my words

I said nothing about doing 'a favor' for anyone. His race didn't matter - just as I would hope that who I marry doesn't matter. He was the better candidate, period.

I could have easily been a Hillary supporter. I stuck with Obama after the McClurkin thing - and I took a lot of crap for it here from some of my gay brothers and sisters - because I thought he was the best candidate and in the end I was right.

I didn't start this thread. I responded to it because of the false charge of 'scapegoating', which is getting thrown around a little too often. If you can't understand why any of us are upset then talk to us instead of using all caps and reading into our words what we didn't say.

[LostinVA]

60. Good post -- my feelings exactly

[political_Dem]

63. Bravo! I asked for this last night!

Kicked and rec'd. Thank you very much for trying to investigate the Prop. 8 exit poll and posting some evidence that investigates it.

Now, I hope that people can start to focus on working together to stop Prop 8 rather than scape-goating, demonizing and hating.

[political_Dem]

64. Double post. Sorry.

[NashVegas]

65. People Are *Angry*

When you do the math, you can see that if black people had voted at the *average* rate of the other groups, combined, Prop 8 would still have passed. Of course it's not AA peoples' fault it passed; they'd have had to vote something like 40:60 against in order for it to fail.

Nonetheless, GLBT people are outraged by the astoundingly high rate at which black people voted for 8. One of the less-spoken-of arguments in favor of voting for Barack Obama was the emotional argument: what it would mean to black people.

As long as someone's not calling you names and writing hurtful things, perhaps you can understand why people are upset, without feeling the need to defend?

They are also angry about the 49% turnout in San Francisco, but that's a different matter.

[slampoet]

70. There was ONLY one thread on 49% turnout.

That's not equality of voice. it also isn't putting blame where it belongs.


Let's face it, progressive Californians of all stripes got lazy on election day.


On that we can agree.

[NashVegas]

72. Maybe You Should Go Check Out the Full Threads

Instead of stopping at OPs.

Anyway, that's not the point. Learn to tell the difference between blame and an expression of anger and hurt. There's far more of the latter going around.

[BronxBoy]

73. This Poster Just Doesn't Get It...

Been posting this kind of crap all day

[Starry Messenger]

75. Doesn't get what? Math?

I don't understand your post.

[BronxBoy]

77. Doesn't get the fact

that someone can understand that the Black vote is not solely responsible for the passage of Prop 8 but that people can also be upset that of those Black people that did vote for it, 70% were ok with it.

[Starry Messenger]

79. I didn't see anything in there that called for people to not be upset.

Is it further along at the link?

[BronxBoy]

81. Naw

Just a string of posts that the poster has made over the last 24 hours

[NashVegas]

88. I See Plenty Confusing Upset for Blame

Like the OP.

[Starry Messenger]

93. I guess I missed something.

I was at work today and this is the first post I read. I live in CA and I've been following along as close as I can in the aftermath. I also read a great post by Xemasab in GD, (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4408731) so I was correlating the two in my mind.

[NashVegas]

107. That Is, Indeed

A great post. Check the GLBT forum, though.

Someday, when someone is trying to calm you down from a rage and putting all kids of logical reasons in front of you why you shouldn't be upset, you'll have a brain fart and realize your being upset doesn't mean there's an asshole in the room, and you'll want them to shut up and let you be upset & get it out of your system. If they've never had that brain fart, themselves, chances are they'll continue to engage in defensive behavior.

[mondo joe]

78. Even if Prop 8 had not passed, the 70% would be disturbing.

The issue of prop 8 and the issue of the 70% have been conflated.

[progressivebydesign]

80. It falls squarely on the shoulder of the churches..

and I believe the AA community is much more centered around churches, as are the hispanic community. It's a reflection of the church's interference in this matter... and the millions poured into the race by the LDS. I think to single out one race, without taking into account WHY that happened, is wrong.

[BronxBoy]

82. At what point

is our community going to be held responsible for independent thought.

DU absolutely castigizes "fundies" who develop group think as a result of their church.

Why should the Black community be any different? Because of the church's role in the Civil Rights movement?

[Neecy]

84. Not entirely

There's a complex relationship that goes back decades between the African-American and gay communities in urban parts of California.

When the AIDS crisis hit the gay community, we came together and provided a good deal of social services with no government help whatsoever. After the passage of the Ryan White Act some Federal money became available and it went to clinics, services and education, much of it to West Hollywood and the Castro where the need was greatest.

Fast forward a couple of years when AIDS started impacting the African American community. The gay community had already been politically organized and we continued to get the lion's share of the funding. As a result the level of services in San Francisco was pretty gold-plated while the services in the Oakland flats in the mid 1990's were almost non-existent. This caused a lot of resentment and anger and understandably so. Not to mention that the gay community was blamed by a few people - unfairly - for the spread of AIDS into the AA community. Needless to say it was a pretty toxic relationship for a long while and it was never really healed.

I remember doing meal delivery on the Peninsula and there wasn't a single gay person on my list - almost all were black or hispanic, and 90% of them were women who were infected by their male partners. They had almost nothing else on the Peninsula but our food delivery. Getting any help at all was a struggle, and they were angry. I totally got it. I'll add that the Peninsula food delivery was organized by a Lutheran Church in Pacifica.

Not to say that the above accounts for much of the Prop 8 vote, but the rift was never fully healed, either. It probably accounts for some of it.

[BronxBoy]

85. Thanks

For a on the ground view

[dbmk]

98. There is a whole lot of numbers in that post

All factually correct for all I know. To make the conclusion:

"Even if blacks had voted like the rest, it would still have passed."

Which is a shit poor point to make, in my view.

[bobd0]

100. K&R THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!

Scapegoating the black community on Proposition 8 is absurd. The VAST majority of Republican voters -- I've heard over 80% -- voted for Proposition 8 yet the blame is placed on black voters who didn't have enough votes to influence the passage or failure of the measure.

[Sirveri]

103. The AA vote percent is still disturbing. BUT

, it shows Obama and the increased AA turnout was NOT responsible for passing prop 8 which is a good thing.

It makes me curious what might have happened with a Hillary ticket, since women count for over 50% the population.

Ultimately what made it pass were the lies and distortions that were directly financed by the LDS and Knights of Columbus. All the outrage stems from the idea that a previously oppressed minority decided to overwhelmingly vote to oppress another minority. But at least we know that an Obama victory didn't cause prop 8 to pass.

I could posit theories on why 69% of AA's voted the way they did, and I've heard several. But I don't think that's the real issue. The real issue is how to promote acceptance of a minority group by the majority.

[crispini]

104. .

[bluetrain]

105. The racism -- or as some would term it "reverse racism" -- involved in this election is laughable.

If you can't recognize that as a factor, then you're an idiot.

[rpannier]

106. Out of curiosity...

Would you say it hurt our position on Prop 8, when the number 2 guy on the ticket said that both Obama and Biden believed that the institution of marriage should be between a man and a woman?

I would think that quote was a gift to the Yes on 8 promoters

Because, in my less than humble opinion, Civil Unions is a modern example of seperate but equal.

[TragedyandHope]

110. THANK YOU for a thoughtful post on the subject

Many of us are just as disappointed with Prop 8 as our brothers and sisters in CA and across the country. To come here and see that disappointment channeled into stereotyping and angry divisive statements only compounded the bleeding wound. If this election taught us anything, it's that we need to come together and find common ground to achieve our goals and improve our country for everyone, rather than scapegoat each other.

Start by treating everyone as individuals and showing them the respect that you expect yourself. Then we can all work towards a better understanding of each other and come together to continue the fight for equality for all.

[bliss_eternal]

112. kick

:kick: