Should The U.S. Bail Out The Big Three Automakers?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Without An American Autmobile Industry There Will Be No UAW

And a lot of people won't be getting their pension money and a lot of people currently unemployed by the auto industry and their suppliers won't have jobs or health care...

[Lost4words]

8. they will just outsource more jobs after their bailout!

[Lost4words]

2. No! No more corporate welfare, from their ashes may come something better

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. What's Going To Happen To All The People Who Lose Their Jobs And Health Care

And what's going to happen to all the reitirees from those companies when they don't get their pensions?

[Lost4words]

22. the same thats been happening to the rest of us for the past 8 years

NAFTA hasnt touched you other than cheap chineese products, has it.

[Romulox]

62. So the ongoing corporate welfare to Wall Street is fine, but a bailout for Detroit goes too far?

:wtf:

[Lost4words]

71. who said that? There should be NO Bailout until after inauguration

:wtf:

[Romulox]

89. Read a newspaper. The bailout has been ongoing for weeks now. $120,000,000,000 to AIG alone.

You are sure poorly informed. :wtf: indeed!

[WeDidIt]

3. Yes, we must

We don't make shit any more. We need to make shit. We should bail them out under the caveat that they have to make more shit here.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. The American Auto Industry Has Two Problem

1) They suffer from a competitive quality advantage whether the difference in quality is real or perceived is hotly contested...

2) They are being buried under an avalanche of health care costs for active and retired employees and pensions...I once saw GM referred to as a health care company that happens to sell cars...

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Before a dime is given out, strip the execs of everything they've stolen

and take it from there.

These bastards got filthy rich while plundering the Big Three.

[Abacus]

5. Yes, on the precondition that they make more dedicated efforts to obtain better fuel efficiency.

If they'd done that to begin with, they wouldn't need a bailout.

[SoonerPride]

11. Electric baby! ELECTRIC CARS

Make them make electric cars.

[TexasObserver]

7. JOBS, folks!! We're going to save the banks, but not the auto makers?!

Sure, they've screwed up, but we're not doing it for them. Make the officers and directors walk the plank, but save the companies, the factories, and the communities.

[Lost4words]

15. I didnt hear the auto industry complain when IT jobs were outsourced!

there were an awful lot of us, but I guess our jobs didnt count?

[TexasObserver]

28. Your logic is faulty.

Outsourcing of IT is a problem that should be addressed and stopped.

Watching the auto industry die isn't going to help your problem, is it? In fact, it will make it worse.

You're blaming the wrong people, and that's not only a waste of time; it's counterproductive.

[Lost4words]

40. thats your opinion Texas' I am not blaming anybody its bad mngt.

another massive bailout that wont help the country get back on its feet. MY LOGIC is simply different than yours. You cant teach responsibility while bailing out an industry when it gets in trouble over and over again. Did we bail out enron?

You cant have an industry that falls back on "the government to bail us out" as reward for bad corporate decisions non compettive products and jumbo bonuses for execs. I dont think they will switch to a position of responsibility otherwise.

[Romulox]

67. You probably CHEERED the Wall Street bailout. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. We Gave 700 Billion To The Banks

The 25 billion the Big Three is asking for seems modest...

[TexasObserver]

29. Only JOBS will save us.

Every dollar spent on new proposals should have to create American jobs immediately.

I think the infrastructure/jobs program will be essential to bringing about a recovery.

[Lost4words]

41. I agree 100%, we need bridges not GM, saving GM does nothing IMO

8643

[Romulox]

66. We gave $120,000,000,000 to AIG ALONE!!! nt

[DrewSG3]

9. They certainly should.

If you want to see the US automakers go belly up, and certainly send this country into a depression, then vote yes.

The trickle down effect would be as devastating as the banking crisis right now. They should've been bailed out a long time ago.

[SoonerPride]

10. Bail out? How about BUY OUT? We nationalize it and have a US auto industry.

If we continue to let private enterpsie screw up and then get loans while CEOs make millions nad millions driving the comapny into the ground, we'll nevr get it right.

Nationalize them and merge them into one monolith that makes electric cars.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

12. Think of all those jobs in Mexico that will be lost if we don't!

[Lost4words]

17. Your point is SPOT on for me, Thank You!

the other posters on this thread should read it as well.

GM,FORD,and Chrysler had ZERO concern for my future and thats how I feel about theirs.

[blue_onyx]

37. The US auto companies employ 3.1 million jobs in US

Here's an article from the Detroit News that may be of interest. The most important point of the article:

"Every direct job at an automaker in the United States creates five more jobs. The next closest industry to autos is high-tech, where each job creates a total of four, including spinoffs. By contrast, one Wall Street position creates a total of about 2.5 jobs, yet Congress expedited aid to the financial services sector this year."

Anyone that thinks the failure of the US auto industry wouldn't have any effect on them, is wrong.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081103/AUTO01/811030343

[Lost4words]

42. I know it would have an effect, no doubt at all.

but nobody wants American cars anymore, they have outlived their own market. the bailout money could be put to better use IMO.

[blue_onyx]

47. Nobody?

They do still have 40-50 percent of the market (no sure of the exact number). I think many of the cars coming from US companies are better than foreign companies. Many Toyota and Honda's are so boring looking. I would take a Malibu or Aura over a Camry or Accord any day (of course, I am biased being from Detroit). Additionally, many US brands have caught up with Toyota/Honda in quality.

[Lost4words]

57. You make a valid point.

I am not against the product or the worker. A bailout, IMO, will go to managemment bonuses then they will build more plants in Mexico, Canada & anywhere the labor is super cheap.

the repukes with a great big help from Bill Clinton's NAFTA have virtually killed manufacturing in the USA. And put thousands or perhaps millions of American families out in the cold.

Well all the early ones have stoped consuming except for bare necessaties and started this snowball effect.

the economy is healthiest when the greatest number of people are part of the economy, you cant put people out of work and think you can sustain a healthy economy. ITS ALL CONNECTED!

Just my worthless opinion.

jim

[blue_onyx]

74. The government does have the upper hand

so they can make demands. I don't think we should just start throwing money to them. I agree...giving them money and then having them send jobs to Mexico isn't ok. Make keeping US plants open part of the agreement. Also, management bonuses should be banned until the US companies can repay the loans.

NAFTA wasn't really Clinton's...it was a Bush Sr. policy agreed to in 1992 that didn't get finalized until 1994. Clinton does deserve blame for allowing this bad policy to go through. I hope Obama does something to make our trade policies benefit the US.

[sufrommich]

50. You must not live close to a factory. What an ignorant remark.

Every town around me is supported by the auto industry and I'm as far north of Mexico as you can get.

[Lost4words]

59. probally not for long, havent you seen the trend?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

87. Irony is wasted on some, I guess.

[SeaLyons]

14. We have to bail them out....

like it or not....we have to.

[Lost4words]

21. No we dont have to bail them out. Reward bad business practices?

[SeaLyons]

32. what's the alternative?

have all three of them go under? have thousands more out of jobs?

[Lost4words]

36. I dont think it would be all 3. Do you want to bail out every failed business

[gravity]

18. I would like the US to regain its economic and technological leadership

If all the cars are being made and designed abroad, it will be a sad day for this country.

If these companies are about to go under, the the government should help them out granted they make the proper reforms so that they can be competitive in the world. Other governments around the world do the same with their industries if they are in trouble.

[Lost4words]

23. thats been gone for 20 years now.

this country, by design, went toward a financial & services industry model rather than a manufacturing model because cheap labor was plentiful out of our country.

[gravity]

68. That's why we need a plan to restore them

[Lost4words]

73. Total agreement on this.

When I was a kid the USA had a Brain Drain to get the smartest scientists, engineers to come to the US, find the best and brightest in order to keep an Sci/Tech advantage. I was so proud.

Later in my life that all changed and the USA started a cheap labor drain to replace the American worker, me.

So now we outsource and all we got was this lousy depression. But on the bright side exec pay and stockholder compensation has been terrific!

[JVS]

19. Only if we nationalize them. Their leadership cannot be trusted.

[redqueen]

35. Agreed. (nt)

[rucky]

20. You mean Honda, Toyota,...

but what's the third one?

[Alhena]

24. If GM/Ford fails on our watch we may lose Mich/Ohio for a generation

[sufrommich]

51. Who cares about the ruination of 2 or 3 states,plenty

more where they came from?

[Lost4words]

61. well the country has been hemorageing jobs from all states

it only bothers you when its concentrated?????????? Or your state???????

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

25. How about this: Instead of bailing out the "Big 3" losers,

Invest that money in companies like this, instead:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

I'd much rather that than a crappy old Ford any day.

[busymom]

77. Sounds good to me.

[foxer]

26. Break them up, sell to emplyee's,and give government contracts

[uponit7771]

27. Yes, but demand the refitting for more elastic production so they don't get caught again.

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. They should have thought of this first.

If you have to bail out someone, it should have been the auto industry INSTEAD of Wall Street, because the auto industry employs real people and actually produces something (i.e. vehicles that move people and things around)

I would impose some serious conditions on such a bailout though. No more excuses for why you won't join the 21st century. We all know it's backroom deals with the oil industry. Fuck 'em. There's no goddamn reason why Ford or GM can't make cars as efficient here as they are in Europe. Yeah, one of them runs on a diesel engine, blah blah blah..... SO FUCKING WHAT?? Legalize Hemp, and start cranking out the biodiesel, and leave the FrankenCorn whores out of it.

Take the money BACK from Goldman Sachs and Citi(Saudi)Bank and give it to Ford & GM if, and ONLY if they agree to those terms. And whatever the UAW wants too.

[baldguy]

31. Only if they offer big incentives.

Close overseas manufacturing plants & expand domestically. Cultivate exclusively domestic suppliers. Modernize existing plants & build new ones. They need to compete in the international marketplace, so they must build cars which will be competitive there - meaning smaller, more fuel efficient & more economical to operate & maintain. The 10,000-lb land yachts that advertising and the consumer culture created should be forced to extinction.

[Beregond2]

33. We've been bailing these morons out my whole life.

Enough. Better to let them fail, and then maybe we would get some automakers suited to the 21st century. I know this would be hard for the workers, but in the long run, they would be a lot beter off working for new companies that might actually turn a profit once in a while.

[blue_onyx]

34. I hope all those no votes were also against the Wall Street bailout

Since the government bailed out Wall Street, it almost has to bailout all industries. Not fair to pick and choose which companies to help and not help. Allowing any of the auto companies to go under would devastate Michigan. I know Obama has several Michiganders on the economic transition team (Gov. Granholm and former U.S. Rep. David Bonior) so hopefully they'll help him develop a plan. I know Obama isn't president yet but he may as well be. The auto companies did get themselves into the mess (with the help of oil companies and Congress) but it's in the best interest of the country to help them.

[Lost4words]

43. well thats a big DUH!

I disagree, maybe you were one of the ones who thought we should bailout tobacco farmers, there were a bunch of them as well and their communities and feeder business & companies.

[blue_onyx]

48. Did you support the bailout of Wall Street?

If you did then you should support this bailout too.

[Lost4words]

75. In my best Senator Stevens, NO!

[Romulox]

72. Ummm, the Federal Government has subsidized tobacco for the last 70 years.

What a surprise. Anti-labor and ill informed! :hi:

[Lost4words]

79. I dont know where you got Anti Labor, Anti Mngt 100%

but then you want to reward mngt. Yes, and the governmet subidizeses the airlines to a pretty tune as well. You cant live in the SE and not know tobbacco history and the extent to which the govt has held their we we while they went. PS tobbacco killed my mother and father, but there is no real link between lung cancer and cigs.

we will have a quicker exchange if you want to cover the industries that the govt dosent subsidize!

Back at ya :hi:

[ellie]

38. I say yes

but there has to be guarantees from the companies' boards of directors regarding bonuses, etc. We have to enact universal health care first and raise CAFE standards while we research alternative fuels. Gone would be the heady days of looting. If they don't play ball, then no bailout. The taxpayers have a vested interest in making sure the auto industry doesn't fail but not to make sure Mr. CEO doesn't get his $50 million bonus. That sort of thing is obscene.

[Lost4words]

44. Do you really think there will be conditions placed on them?

I dont.

[ellie]

60. There should be conditions.

I don't know if there will be. However, my support for such a plan hinges on conditions as described above.

[Lost4words]

69. OK I understand.

[KakistocracyHater]

39. Tesla Motors

electric cars, I'm trying to send "messages"(just thoughts, really) to Arnie-he's the one that got Hummers to civvies, so why is he such a total failure when it comes to electric cars? He could make California the new auto capitol of America & he should. :think:

[Jed Dilligan]

45. Why not nationalize them, if the only real issue is keeping the

employees insured?

[LSK]

46. Yes with strings attached

Such as rising CAFE standards, mandating production of electric cars by a certain date, things like that.

[sufrommich]

49. I can't believe how many people voted "no",

Two million American jobs gone, millions of people tossed on the fire,real democratic of you.

[high density]

58. There are better, more direct ways for the government to create jobs

Throwing money at these irresponsible companies is just delaying the inevitable.

[busymom]

80. So we should prop up these companies

that are making automobiles that don't meet the needs of the market, use too much gas, and spend too much time in the shop? What's next...government checks to pay people to buy cars because they can't afford them.

This is how CHANGE happens. Isn't that we all just voted for? Making changes is difficult and there will be growing pains. What did Obama say? There will be false starts...there will be struggles. BUT...at the end of the day, I trust American ingenuity and the ability for us to rise above and develop an even better industry.

Count me out as being willing to invest a red cent.

[carnie_sf]

52. Qualified no

but willing to change to a yes if they agree to start making cars here again

[and-justice-for-all]

53. Sure..if they become nationalized...

same goes for the banks.

[951-Riverside]

54. Why bail out the auto industry when people can't afford cars?

[workinclasszero]

55. You just can't look the other way and let this industry go away

We are talking billions and billions of dollars. tens of thousands of upper and middle class jobs here.

All the UAW members are counting on a democratic President to help them and so is the Governor of Michigan a rising star in the party it would seem.

I know the auto companies piss me off as well. The government tried and tried to get the short sighted bastards to raise their fleet MPG and they fought it every step of the way.

I don't see why good democratic Union members should pay for auto execs sins.

[NightWatcher]

56. We should "lend" UAW the money to buy GM and/or Ford. Then the workers would own the companies

and then they'd work harder for themselves instead of sitting by while their pensions are looted.

Why dont the workers make the money instead of the CEO's

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. I'd support nationalizing the big three automakers.

I wouldn't support handing cash to the same incompetent execs.

[Romulox]

64. Statistically, a large number of the "no" votes must've supported the Wall Street bailouts.

"free market" hypocrites. :hi:

[busymom]

78. I didn't.

[Lost4words]

82. I dont know anybody who supported Bush raiding the treasury

calling it a bailout. Come ON!

In a free market losers are allowed to lose.

they privatize the profits and socialize the losses That IS NOT FREE MARKET IS IT?

[Romulox]

88. Nancy Pelosi, Barney Franks, Harry Reid, BARACK OBAMA, et al. supported it.

It wasn't Bush. It was "New" Democrats who rammed it through.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I dislike your choice of words.

The $700b gift to wall street was a bailout. The loan to Chrysler was repaid with interest. The latter was good government.

[RoadRage]

70. Nope.

Are we going to save the airlines next? And then who after that? Insurance industry if they get hit.. heck, no one rides Amtrac.. let's save them too.

I'm just saying..we aren't a socialist government yet.. and we don't want to be. Yes, people will lose jobs - LOTS of them - if the big 3 go out of business. But, unless we let these companies fail or sail on their own.. nothing better is going to grow up in their place.

What if they fail? Perhaps a car company called "Green" pops up in their place and starts making Green only cars.. and that grows into the largest car company of this century? How is that going to happen if we keep trying to save something that's not working?

Perhaps i'm not toting the democratic line on this.. but it's my opinion. If we continue to save every industry that struggles, we'll bankrupt our entire country by doing so.

[busymom]

76. No more capitalism on the way up and socialism on the way down...

I say let them fall flat on their faces. This is America and I have no doubt that if these big companies collapse they will make room for new companies that have the opportunity to change the face of the American Automobile industry.....by introducing more efficient, higher quality, more environmentally friendly vehicles that will earn the respect of Americans as well as other countries (where we could potentially export!).

I used to buy only American vehicles, but after spending way too much time and money in the shop, I now stick with my VW.

This is how the free market works...bye bye, big 3!

[frickaline]

81. I voted no, at least not yet

I don't see any good way to pick and choose between various companies and pick who we should and shouldn't bail out. The banks were a special case because without lending all businesses would potentially fail. But when you get down to the level of individual companies, I think you need to let the strong survive and the weak get bought or go bankrupt/restructure.

If you believe they should be bailed out, how do you differentiate their needs from the needs of other companies? Should they be shown preference because they are larger companies? So we shun the small businesses in favor of the large? Or do we favor this industry above others? Are these auto companies encouraged to be less competent than those not receiving assistance? I can see no way to make this fair to the marketplace.

I might feel differently if I was convinced that all three were likely to fail. At the moment it is not looking like this is a likely outcome.

[wakeoftheflood]

83. All or nothing?

Bail out GM, let Ford concentrate on Europe and shut down their NA operation.
Let Chrysler burn in hell. No need To bail out mopar, they will just blow the money developing uncompetitive suvs, or to make deals to build their next gen small cars in China by Chery.
I agree GM must be saved, but Ford and chrysler can rot.

[Sunnyshine]

84. Yes, if the package includes incentives for using American made steel/parts/manufacturing and

conquering the burden of inflated Healthcare costs by eliminating private insurers/foreign interests from interfering with restructuring.

[Mike 03]

85. I voted "no" because I believe any automaker in this much trouble should formally declare bankruptcy

but continue to operate and attempt to get out of the hole, with some assistance or without it.

At this point, any effort on the part of the Federal Reserve or Treasury to save a company like Ford or GM would be essentially a symbolic effort. But we have not even yet begun to see the ramifications of this crisis come to fruition; the Fed and Treasury need to save their bullets.

[HughMoran]

86. No really isn't an option

We can't not have an automobile industry.

[MISSDem]

90. I have a (I guess) dumb question. If General Motors goes bust

who will work on your GM car that you already own?

[codjh9]

91. Here's the problem: on the one hand I don't think we should, because the problem is all their fault

- for building big SUVs and big trucks when anyone with a f-ing brain knew where the world/oil/pollution/vehicle size needed to go, and just like in the ant & the grasshopper story, Honda, Toyota, etc. were coming out with hybrids, very good small cars, etc. On the other hand, what kind of hit would the US economy take - it's already happened somewhat in several different ways - if we let them collapse completely? Factory workers, suppliers, salespeople, on and on?