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deadlyaj Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:57 PM
Original message
Maybe? Congratulations Senator Al Franken !!!
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 04:02 PM by deadlyaj
Its under 130 as of this afternoon

But its going to court, read below to see what a nice Minn law is going to send this...


http://wcco.com/election/al.franken.recount.2.858083.html

MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) ― The margin in Minnesota's unresolved Senate race just keeps changing throughout Thursday as election officials double-check their figures.

As of 4:55 p.m. Thursday, Republican Sen. Norm Coleman's lead over Democrat Al Franken is 236.

With nearly 2.9 million ballots cast, that's a difference between the top two candidates of about one one-hundredth of a percentage point.

While the race is headed for an automatic recount, Republican Sen. Norm Coleman and Democratic challenger Al Franken have other options to alter the outcome.

The final tally won't be certified until the state canvassing board meets Nov. 18, and an automatic recount awaits.

After a recount, the candidates or any eligible voter can head to court to challenge the way the election was conducted or the votes were tallied. The Minnesota law spelling out the contest raises the possibility of Senate involvement.

"I don't think there is any possibility it will be simply a recount," said Hamline University law professor Joseph Daly. "It is destined for the courthouse and ultimately it is destined for the United States Senate based on this law. There's too much at stake. There's too much vitriol."

Minnesota's race is one of three up in the air nationwide. Races in Georgia and Alaska are also unresolved. All three involve Republican incumbents in a year that has seen Democrats gain five seats already.

Franken went on Minnesota Public Radio to explain why he won't waive the recount, as Coleman said he would do if he was in the same position.

"This is the closest race in Minnesota history, the closest Senate race and the closest race anywhere in the country. This is just part of the process to make sure every vote is counted," Franken said, adding, "Candidates don't get to decide when an election's over -- voters do."

Coleman laid low Thursday. Minnesota Public Radio obtained a copy of a Coleman campaign letter to local election officials seeking "a continuous visual guard" over ballots.

In percentage terms, Minnesota's race will go down as the closest Senate election ever prior to a recount. In 1974, a New Hampshire race came down to 355 votes out of 200,000 cast.

The loser in that race, the Democratic candidate, overtook the Election Day victor by 10 votes in a recount. But more maneuvering and court challenges overturned that result and the state's Republican governor awarded the election certificate to his party's nominee.

The case ultimately wound up before the Senate, where Democrats held a large majority. But a standoff dragged on until August when the Senate voted to declare the seat open. A special election was held the next month, and record-breaking turnout helped Democrat John Durkin prevail.

"It does go to some indication of how far the Senate was willing to go," said Associate Senate Historian Don Ritchie.

The Minnesota election law envisions Senate involvement.

Once a result is contested in district court -- which must come within a week of the post-recount canvass -- the chief justice of the Supreme Court assigns three judges to hear it. The current chief, Eric Magnuson, is an appointee of Republican Gov. Tim Pawlenty.

Either party in the case can request to inspect the ballots, and three-member inspection teams are appointed. Each party picks one, and the third is chosen by the two or appointed by a judge.

Within 20 days of the initial filing, a trial is held. The court decides who received the most votes and is entitled to the certificate of election. The court can study evidence of election irregularities, but it can't issue findings or conclusions.

Once all appeals are exhausted, either party can ask that the information be forwarded to the presiding Senate officer.

From there, it's up to the Senate to decide how to proceed.

"Ultimately the Constitution gives the Senate the sole power to determine the qualifications of its members," Ritchie said. "In the end, there is no appeal if the Senate makes the decision."

Neither campaign made legal advisers available for interviews Thursday.

Ohio State University law professor Edward Foley, who is writing a book on disputed elections, said it's up to the candidates to decide how far to push things.

"I'm not saying either side has to concede or give up," Foley said. "But what bipartisanship going forward with the recount would mean is that there is a shared understanding of the ground rules in conducting the recount and abiding by that process."

"Somebody is going to lose," he said, "but what's important is the way in which you reach that conclusion."
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't do that. It may not come out in his favor. nt
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deadlyaj Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The Recount doesnt matter - Its Franken's
"Ultimately the Constitution gives the Senate the sole power to determine the qualifications of its members," Ritchie said. "In the end, there is no appeal if the Senate makes the decision."

Neither campaign made legal advisers available for interviews Thursday.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. How can you be positive that the senate would choose Franken?
The fat lady hasn't even gotten on stage yet. The song still won't come for weeks. It's nowhere near over. I clicked this thread because you had some news. This is some interesting information, but doesn't in any way state that Franken has won, or even how likely he might be to win.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. nt
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. coleman could withdraw and save the taxpayers money as the votes are that close
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Seriously, change your goddamned thread title.
ugh. very cute.
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deadlyaj Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. nope
read the f'ing article. its going to a senate choice.
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Then put THAT IN YOUR THREAD TITLE
Need a manual?
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deadlyaj Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:02 PM
Original message
happy? :)
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. please edit the number in the OP thanks
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Your SL is ridiculous. It's good news, but not breathless-worthy. Poor form. LAIF. nt.
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EconomicLiberal Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Minnesota Secretary of State's website still says 239
Where are you getting 130?
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deadlyaj Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Minnesota Senate Race: Typo Fix Gives Franken 100 More Votes
sorry meant 230- typo
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yeah. I'm really sure that Coleman would waive the recount if he were 300+ votes behind.
How F**king stupid does Coleman think the people are!!!!!!!!!!!!?????

"to explain why he won't waive the recount, as Coleman said he would do if he was in the same position."
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. Misleading thread title
considering what's at stake, it's just not cool
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. This sounds like a Gore v. Bush 2000 SCOTUS replay to me...
Back in 2000 the SCOTUS said Gore v. Bush could not be cited as precedent and was a one time only application. I wonder what they will say now??

Doug D.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. At the exact same time Coleman was stating that there was no need for
a recount the SOS found a posting error that gave Franken another 100 votes

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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Oh, hey Occam and Scarletwoman - yeah, your elections are always spot on
"not particularly buggy" - scarletwoman

and

"we do elections right" - occam

How do you like DEM APPLES???

I am very unhappy with both of you that you choose to grind your axes instead of supporting adding to our numbers in the Senate. I understand that I don't have to live with him as a Senator, but like I said, I held my nose for someone who was as carpetbaggerish as a carpetbagger can be - someone named Hilary - and she's been a GREAT senator for my state.

I think you need to take a hard look at what you've been playing at on this issue.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. huh? I assume that you were aiming elsewhere
but do you really want to take Occam on? Not adviseable.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Grant, I was using what you posted to take aim
and why the hell should I be afraid of anyone???

I'm pretty competent to take care of myself, thank you.

I enjoy most all of occam's postings, but I cannot stand what I am reading from them on Franken. Anything less than beating one's chest demanding that at least Franken get a fair shake in a thorough recount is unacceptable in a place call DEMOCRATIC underground.

I love your posts, too, btw, but what the hell kind of attitude is that saying that a poster should be afraid of another poster? In fact, if there's anyone I'd be afraid to take on, it would you be you, because your posts are fact based on a level I don't have time to dispute.

This is an argument about whether you can support the party and get over your dislike of a non-local, urban guy. Like I said, I got over a damn hick from Arkansas, and my state is all the better for it.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. lol if your aiming at Occum then you should respond to Occum

He doesn't take his positions lightly. I have no idea what particular point your picking with him but it seems as if his rather gentle "lets not get ahead of ourselves" was aimed at a title that was changed. Generally I have found his defense of any point of view to be particularly effective.

I haven't seen anyone at DU not really supporting Franken.

Personally I am very optomistic.


Dislike of a non-local - is this referring to Franken? Because he was raised in MN and always kept in close contact there.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. grantcart, read his posts on the recount
they have been consistently discouraging to anyone who "gasp" thinks or thought that Franken has a chance.

And it is a VERY safe assumption that occam is at this point reading every thread that relates to Franken and the recount.

Are you suggesting I create a thread to take this up with occam? I know you're not suggesting that.

He can find this in this thread, and I'm sure he'll have something to say. I've been very surprised by the way he's approaching this situation. It may be the first thing I've ever disagreed with him about here at DU.

And occam does NOT seem to believe in Franken's bona fides wrt Minnesota, unless I am misreading badly.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. you can address him on this thread see reply #2
I haven't noticed the replies you refer to
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. You don't need to look, but you might want to. And although I referred to him
he was not the only person I was addressing.

Unless people view threads very differently from whatever default I selected, I can't imagine it is very difficult to see someone mention your name in a post further down in a thread. It may have been more appropriate back at reply #2, but it was the fact that you brought forth that inspired my post. And it is here now, for better or for worse. It is certainly possible that there is some thread viewing format that is very different from the one I use.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. My reply number two was entirely directed at the phrasing "congratulations Senator Franken," which
was the original title of the OP.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. What are you talking about? I spent the entire week before the election working for Franken.
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 05:55 PM by Occam Bandage
Given that it was the closet race, when I went out for the DFL I made sure to put extra emphasis on Franken. I missed class to pull double shifts Monday and Tuesday. I'm entirely in favor of the recount. I still think Franken was a terrible candidate, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want him as my Senator, and it certainly doesn't mean I didn't work for him.

As for his chances? The finding of 6,000 extra votes was a surprise to me; I think he has a much better shot at winning it now. I wouldn't give him even money, but I'd say a 25% bet isn't out of the realm of possibility. However, if the gap gets back around 500 by the time the recount starts, I'd go back to abject pessimism.

Finally, as for our praising of the Minnesota electoral system? That was entirely in reference to the claims of fraud/vote-swapping/provisional ballots/challenges/etc. MN runs clean elections. That doesn't mean that our optical scanner machines are somehow smarter than other states', nor does it mean that our voters are incapable of misreading the instructions and crossing out the bubble instead of filling it in, nor does it mean that we don't see a microscopic percentage of ballots getting lost in the shuffle like everyone else.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Ok, if you worked for Franken, I sincerely apologize
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 05:57 PM by jsmirman
It still seemed like you consistently discouraged people who gave Franken a chance in any recount, but I can understand if past history has made the recent changes to the vote totals surprising to you.

My interpretation of your tone must be mistaken, though, if you put your sweat equity behind him.

I'd mention that I'm not sure now is the time to talk about what a terrible candidate Franken is, when all of us, as Democrats, probably should be rallying around him getting his fair shake - I wonder if this can wait for later.

Is it possible that you made a mistake in thinking that you could count on this election following the patterns of past ones, in light of this being quite an unusual election?

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Well, I am indeed bitter about the nomination of Franken.
Edited on Fri Nov-07-08 07:31 PM by Occam Bandage
His likely loss was a problem I saw coming from the moment he announced (and a problem I discussed at length with people in our state party, who were mostly in agreement with me), and the race followed almost exactly the trajectory I feared. If I was a bit, er...full-throated in my criticism of Franken, it was because I was so acutely and intensely disappointed in the race, and I was experiencing quite a bit of internal backlash from having worked hard for a candidate I knew had made our ticket weaker.

I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from pushing for a recount; I was just trying to keep people from getting their hopes too far up, given that MN elections are usually pretty cut-and-dried. I don't think Democrats should ever give up, no matter how bad the odds are. At the same time, I really hate when the Dems make the odds longer than they need to be.

And that's my story.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Any butterfly ballots?
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. No, but there could be 6,000 undervotes added by the HAND RECOUNT, benefiting Al
Franken disproportionately. So says a longtime MN county elections director, based on an estimated 2 per 1000 read failures by optical scanners maintained by counties, not by the State.

The recount can't begin until after the Nov 18th certification by the SOS. Then circled names and incompletely-filled scan ovals, disproportionately on ballots cast by first-time Obama voters, will become actual votes under MN's "intent of the voter" laws.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7815062
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Doughboy71 Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. Link to the current election numbers
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. If they were in Georgia, there'd be a run-off.
That is one close race.

Here in GA there's going to be a run-off and Chambliss has 49.8% while Martin (D) has 46.8%!
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. Personally I think there should be a run-off of the top #2 candidates
but that's just my opinion
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. agree, it's a shame they don't have a law requiring that
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Like they do in Georgia.
I think it's the best way.
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