LDS Doctrine: Jesus and Satan are brothers.

[denem]

Look it up on their site. There is so much that can be directed at the LDS church, with a particular focus of keeping their representatives out of mainstream politics. The whole book of Mormon on gold tablets is preposterous, the lost tribes theories disproved by DNA. Ridicule is better than frontal attack IMO - and a few evangelical churches may be unlikely allies. 'Teh Gay' campaign would then have 'officially' backfired.

[stopbush]

1. Does it matter? Jesus and Satan are both mythical, imaginary figures.

The whole Bible is preposterous, as is the Koran. What's your point?

[Jed Dilligan]

2. It matters to the millions of believers who fell for a Mormon scam.

[stopbush]

3. And billions fall for the Christian scam. What's the diff?

[Jed Dilligan]

5. I for one would rather see the Mormon church discredited than any other

seeing as they provided 70% of the funds for Proposition 8. Atheists have been railing against religion in general for a long time. Why not change tack and single one out for public humiliation?

[Arugula Latte]

8. It's all BS, though. It's just on a spectrum of ridiculousness.

However, whether it's Magic Undies or Virgin Birth we're talking about, who is to say one of these silly beliefs is MORE silly than the rest?

[Jed Dilligan]

11. It's not a matter of being anti-religion for me--people can believe

whatever they want. I don't practice religion but I understand my right not to is the same as their right to. I DO care that one church (or really more of a cult) raised 70% of the funds for a political campaign and still don't pay taxes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Singling out one particular aspect of a religion is no way for an atheist to approach it

As far as religious claims go, it's a perfectly harmless one, and, if you accept the existences of the two, then it's completely believable too. No extra miracle is required for them to be brothers.

If, however, your strategy is really that you want to turn mainstream Christians against Mormons by pointing out to them the differences from what they believe, then your tactic is on a level with Liddy Dole's "my opponent consorts with atheists" smear. It's saying "their religion isn't like yours", when in fact the problem with Mormons is what they believe about the real world, ie giving gay people equal rights.

Atheists shouldn't be railing against particular religions to make others hate them. That's the tactic of the worst sort of religionist.

[Jed Dilligan]

13. I'm not an atheist or a believer in God--I don't care about that battle.

It doesn't concern me.

I want the Mormon church to be laughed off the public stage. This is specific for me. If it takes pitting one falsehood against another, so be it.

[Orsino]

17. Because singling out people for public humiliation is why we're angry at *them*.

I'm only interested in their real-world doctrine.

[Jed Dilligan]

19. Um. No.

This is about civil rights. No one has a right not to be embarrassed or exposed for what they really are.

[Orsino]

24. Which "they," precisely?

Please don't tell me "all Mormons."

[Jed Dilligan]

33. Anyone who willingly allows him or herself

to be represented by the LDS church. A "lifestyle choice" if ever I saw one.

[Orsino]

39. So, some Mormons, sometimes? Or all of them? n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

40. Ones who don't speak out when their church is wrong,

and are therefore complicit in the wrongdoing whether they support it or not.

[Orsino]

46. That's an important qualifier...

...and isn't consistent with a call to ridicule unrelated elements of church doctrine.

[Jed Dilligan]

51. The point of emphasizing how far from mainstream Christian their beliefs are

is not to "ridicule" them, but to divide and conquer the various sects in the anti-human-rights coalition.

I actually think the idea of Christ and Satan being brothers is more compelling than the traditional Christian myth, but that's not the point. The point is to make it hard for them to organize Baptists, Catholics, etc.

[Orsino]

54. Post #5 says "humiliation."

And if you're proposing aiming this at all Mormons, I still oppose it.

[Jed Dilligan]

55. That was directed at an atheist (which I don't claim to be,

any more than I claim to belong to a religion.) It was meant as a suggestion to focus effort on the Mormon church because that body is most responsible in this case. Atheists generally do want religious people to be humiliated, so I thought it would be a sell. Didn't work.

If people's beliefs are embarrassing and they keep to themselves, I don't have a problem. If they inflict their beliefs on the public through messing with elections in places they aren't welcome, I do. And if embarrassment is what the church's membership needs to A) leave it or B) force it to reform, I'm all for it. It's better than outlawing their leadership and sending in the gunships, which they practically deserve for the degree to which they have subverted the Constitution while pretending to be American and support American values.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. what you sed!

the idea of a 7,000 yr old universe still amuses me. Whenever they pray for something, and their prayers fail, (like 99.99999999% of the time) it must be god's will.

[WindRiverMan]

23. No. Jesus of Nazareth WAS an actual man.

He did live and preach about the lives of men around the sea of Galilee, and he was crucified Roman style on a cross. That much is true and backed by historians.

[bunkerbuster1]

25. I think it's basically true, but "backed by historians?"

There are no contemporary historical accounts of Jesus' life. First accounts outside the Bible are Roman historians who noted early Christian communities, well after His execution.

[camera obscura]

4. Mike Huckabee is on DU???

[Alhena]

6. They aren't brothers, but they did play on the same high school basketball team

[Bucky]

42. Ha-ha! Only because Jesus couldn't cut it on the water polo team

Every time he'd dive in, he'd just bounce across to the other side of the pool.

[kenny blankenship]

7. Brothers from different mothers?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. yeah, that christian god loved to fool around.

that's why you never hear about JC's heavenly mommy, nor whether he was breast fed or not, or whether she delivered vaginally or by way of C-section.

[bunkerbuster1]

26. Brothers from another planet?

sorry, had to get that one in.

[Sebastian Doyle]

14. And they can't fucking rap worth a shit either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TeV8yp8ALM

[bunkerbuster1]

27. Why do you hate me?

why did you post that link that I just clicked on? Why why why?

[jmowreader]

58. I want to know how you knew that was there

Hideous doesn't begin to describe it.

[vanderBeth]

15. Woah

I'm now really curious where they got this from.

[mckeown1128]

16. Why bash another's religion.

my wife happens to be mormon... and a Democrat and a supporter of Gay rights (all of them.. you know, like marriage)

Leave the religion bashing to the freepers... They are supposed to be the intolerant ones.

[Jed Dilligan]

18. Does her bishop know about her views?

[mckeown1128]

37. No. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

38. Then can you see how she might be at least

an eensy-weensy part of the problem?

[depakid]

20. The interesting thing is that only good Mormons can go to heaven

and only bad Mormons can go the hell.

Everyone else is left in a purgatory of sorts- unless they get ritually babtized posthumously.

This is why Mormons have such extensive genealogical records- and anyone can look them up at these deals called stake houses.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. Ho hum. Different mythologies. So what. This is more damning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2119025#2119602

[XemaSab]

22. This is actually something I find interesting about Mormon religion

There's sort of a Daoist richness to the idea, no? :shrug:

[RagAss]

28. So...... we get to argue about which fairy tale is most insane !

Life in America in the 21st century !

[TransitJohn]

29. What the hell does this have to be posted in GD:P?

There are far more appropriate forums and groups here on DU.

[Bluenorthwest]

47. The whole Prop 8 thing is about Mitt's run in 2012

and other LDS candidates seeking power. It is an attempt to divide Democrats and set up Mitt for the run and the win.
Those who have eyes to see past the bull pile know this is a presidetial issue, the first for 2012 in fact.

[JohnMcCant2008]

30. Mormons, Jews, Christians, Muslims - frankly I just don't see the difference.

Mormons are silly, but ALL religions have an equal share of unbelievable stories that 'must' be accepted on blind faith. When these stories are viewed objectively instead of from the point of view of a "believer", one is just as ridiculous as the next. Talking snakes, burning bushes, demons cast into herds of animals, 6000 year old earth, etc. etc, etc........ Even the Christian bible mentions unicorns AND dragons.

religion causes divisiveness. period.

I would not ever ally myself with ANY religious group to "attack" an even more preposterous group. Extend that line of thinking to the "world" religions and you can see how we have arrived at our current state of "my gawd is bigger and badder than your gawd".

Mormons LOVE their persecuted history but are first in line to step up and persecute others.

For once in my life it would be nice to see religion take a back seat to the actual RUNNING of our government for change.

[gypsylud]

31. Who Cares! It has nothing nothing nothing to do with the issues!

The the idea of balance between good and evil are not new in world religions nor are they new in christianity. The gnostics (of which the Mormons share many tendencies) had various sects that said close to the same. StilI don't see why this matters. Picking on the BS and metaphysic of a religion is a waste of time.

[H2O Man]

32. Family reunions must suck.

[berni_mccoy]

49. LOL!

[SoxFan]

34. Great. More self-righteous religion bashing.

Just what we need on DU, another orgy of riddicule and mockery from "open minded" progressives.

Freedom of expression extends to Mormons just as it does to members of the GLBT community. This childish routine of mocking another person's faith is almost as sick as the homophobia you denounce.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. That is, if you think people are gay "by choice"

in the same way people choose their beliefs.

[srhuddle]

36. Feel free to bash their bigotries but this is appalling.

Mocking the tenets of another's religion is never a good path to take. This is just hate speech to counter theirs. I would never in a million years consider converting to Mormonism but I would NEVER ridicule it. You're right to be angry about Prop 8 but don't let your bloodlust cloud your eyes to what you're doing, or you'll become just like them (plus, they'll just feel vindicated).

Prop 8 was a disaster. Move on. Find new ways to work past the bigotry and get marriage legalized for all. Whether that means overturning Prop 8 or pushing new legislation is irrelevant; both are calm, collected approaches that show them equal rights supporters are NOT the horrible people they think we are. By legalizing gay marriage they think we're intent on destroying religion, so for God's sake don't attempt to destroy their religion! We we can show them that they're wrong, and this isn't the way to do it.

[SalviaBlue]

53. Move on? Hmmm where have I heard that before?

[comrade snarky]

41. No dumber

Than a virgin birth and a talking snake is it?

Seriously, you think that's going to hurt them? Scientology is 100 times dumber and it still has people flocking to throw their money at Elrons corpse.

I'm all for ridicule of the stupid but don't expect much in the way of results.

[old mark]

43. LDS is the fastest growing religion in the world. I have read some of their

books, and knew several LDS folks for a while. Their beliefs are further out on the scale of christian beliefs than most, but they have a history of violence, political "fixing" and perjudica againse ANYONE who is not a good Mormon, what they call a gentile.

Anyone who is not a member of the LDS is entitled to no respect,no fairness. They do what they want in Utah, and do the same wherever they are connected to the political establishment.

mark

[Bucky]

44. What precisely does this have to do with presidential politics?

Unless either Jesus is running for the 2012 Republican nomination or Satan is running against Obama in 2012 for our nomination, this is off topic.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Mitt Romney 2012

that is what this whole thing is really about. It is not at all off topic.

[Bucky]

50. Candidates' religions are part of the selection process now?

Sorry, but I'll stay on the Founders' side of this debate: no religious tests for public office.

I judge a candidate by his public character (or in the case of Romney the lack thereof). My advice to you is leave the religious bigotry to the Republicans. You're simply out of their league.

[Curtland1015]

56. Candidates' religions have ALWAYS been a part of the selection.

Is it wrong? Certainly. But they're MUCH less likely to pick someone they're worried "won't connect" with the religious folks.

[Dappleganger]

45. Look, it's no good arguing theology

IMO it's better to keep the conversation about the separation of church and state, the destruction of civil rights for all, and pulling their tax-exampt status rather than go down this road of quibbling over religious views.

[Critters2]

52. Yeah, and they wear magic underwear, too, I hear. What's your point? nt

[denem]

57. SORRY: My apologies for a poorly worded and thought out OP.

The principal points I wanted to make was a strategy of devideding the coalition of religiouis forces that came together to push through Prop 8. The LDS put huge amounts of financial and political capital on the line to, amongst other things legitimise their standing with the mainstream Christian right. The result, if successful, would br a broader coalition of bigotry, perhaps with better funding and organization.

I do not want to see prominent LDS politicians rise to positions of power, any more than I want paleo fundies in the white house. Ridicule is the wrong word - sorry. There are some "unorthodox" doctrines of the LDS churh, mthat ay well hamper an LDS politician rising of the back or fundie support. And yes, I am thinking of Romney here.

I apologize for posting an OP that seemed to be about denigratuib a particular religion. The LDS caqmpaign on Prop 8 was a bid to get curry favor with the Christians right, broadening the coalition of bigotry. There is deep seated distrust between the two sides at the moment, and I was speculating about easy to digest wedges, might go down well amongst the 'Christians' that long ago gave up thinking.