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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:14 AM
Original message
Don't support gay marriage? Come forward, and give us a reason why.
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 12:15 AM by Kerry2008
It's sickening that some DUers on this board would vote in another thread on a poll to say they don't support gay marriage.

So you're saying I don't deserve the right to marry my boyfriend, but that you straight people do?

What makes you so special? You can put a penis in a vagina? Well I can put my...well...I'll stop there.

What gives? Who in the HELL would support denying me my rights?

I'll tell you what, we'll support a ban on gay marriage--if America will support a ban on straight marriage.

Sound good? Didn't think so...

So come forward, and defend this position. I can't imagine an actual logic based argument against gay marriage.
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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are there any DU'ers who don't support gay marriage?
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. According to another threads poll, quite a few do n/t
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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well, that's incredibly sad.....
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Bear in mind that a number of the no's on that poll
come from trolls. The rest of them are just idiots.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Link to poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7814457&mesg_id=7814457

I recall someone saying they don't support gay marriage because they don't support marriage at all. :shrug:
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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
56. Wow. WTF?
And I don't get this quibbling over "civil unions" vs "marriage".

Aren't all marriages "civil unions", meaning the couple have to be recognized by the state as a couple? Even couples who currently marry in a church must have a license from the state.

Another question--say a gay couple belong to a church that would perform their marriage. Wouldn't the state not recognizing said marriage be counter to that "freedom of religion" the Religious Right hold so sacred?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
88. I don't think churchs or temples should be forced to marry ANYBODY
It should be a decsion that each individual congregation/community makes. I say this as a non-religious Jew. I do think that Civil Unions should be offered to everybody, regardless of orientation, and that the same rights offered to "married" couples be given to those who chose to enter a civil union.

I'm straight, but I would have preferred a civil union. I got married in a christian church and it had zero significance to me as far as a ceremony.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. First Amendment says they have a right to deny a religious ceremony to any couple.
That has nothing to do with gay marriage. For example, a Catholic cannot marry in the church someone who has been divorced, but who has not receivede a papal divorce.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Well I can put my...well...I'll stop there. "
You can do this without marriage, ya know. :)
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I can also have sex with a dog without marriage, but I'd rather just have the marriage please.
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 12:24 AM by Kerry2008
...With my imaginery-future-boyfriend, not the dog.

Just to clarify ;)
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
63. does the dog have a license?
even dogs can get a license for crying out loud!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Didn't take the poll you reference but... I advocate Civil Unions For EVERYBODY.
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 12:21 AM by cryingshame
Solves the problem neatly while emphasizing the separation of Church and State.

Also, there's the extra bonus of eliminating the implication that two adults joining households necessarily have a romantic attachment.

As a maturing woman who isn't married, why shouldn't I be able to legally join my household with my best friend (female) if we are both committed to taking care of one another?
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Independent_Voice Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
80. Nice ideal, but pie-in-the-sky thinking
Straight people will never stand to see the word "marriage" legally wrested away from their relationships.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #80
89. #1. it worked in Europe. #2. Straight people are more than welcome to get married w/ceremony
just exactly the way the vast majority do now.
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. 12 Reasons Gay Marriage Will Ruin Society
#1 Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control are not natural.
#2 Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people cannot get legally married because the world needs more children.
#3 Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

cont: http://grove.ufl.edu/~ggsa/gaymarriage.html
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. NOT NATURAL?!? My love isn't natural?
And I shouldn't have a marriage because I can't pop kids out of my asshole?

Yeah, OK.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Simmer down Kerry2008, it's a joke.
Follow the link, it's quite funny. It's chock full of irony and sarcasm. :)
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'm sorry, I have my mom's quick temper. I'll read it :)
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. the post you are responding is rather sarcastic
:eyes:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Out of your asshole?
LOL!
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Hey, I'm talented--but NOT that talented hehe n/t
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
64. i think that would make millions
on pay per view!
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obiwan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I hope this is a snark...
...because numbers 2 and 3 is provably false. Straight parents produce straight AND GAY children. Since all people are produced by the union of a sperm and an egg, where else can gay people come from but from heterosexuals? Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, it's the way you are wired. It's not a matter of choice. It's genetic. Either you are gay or you are not.

Also, regarding #1: Homosexuality IS natural. Homosexuality exists in most species. It is a genetic variation. Polyester means "Many Fibers". Some polyesters have been known to exist naturally in small quantities as a byproduct of igneous formation.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. It's a joke.
That is all.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nobody has explained their opinion there "to the contrary"
take from that what you will....
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. those who voted NO on that poll could be freeper trolls
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I hope so, because otherwise it saddens me that some DUers don't support gay marriage.
:(
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. anyone?
Hello?


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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. could I ask what you are talking about specifically?
are you referring to people who are against gay marriage, or to people who if forced to choose would put another issue first? If it's the second I'll bite...
I don't care if gay people get married and on its own I would vote for it.
But for example, in a scenario that if the only candidate in the Democratic presidential primary that supported gay marriage was I felt, unelectable (whether for that issue or something else), and something I consider more important would be at stake if our party lost that election - for me that big issue is Roe v Wade, as a female who wants to have children someday I am simply terrified of the possibility of losing that right if something went wrong in my pregnancy or I was raped and became pregnant as I have suffered from depression in the past and could in no way handle that pregnancy.

so I am not against gay marriage but I would be willing to vote for a candidate against it if I felt something more important (for me a life and death issue) was a stake.

do you feel that makes me wrong or bigoted?
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. i don't understand your point ...
Prop 8 was a standalone YES or NO vote. So I don't understand why you're trying to weigh it against other issues.

This is not about ranking so-called "gay marriage" on a list of issues. No one at DU, that I can tell, has made this the only criteria in voting for a specific candidate.

The real question that our gay friends at DU want to know is, why did some people vote YES on prop 8? What is their rational for believing that gays do not have the right to marry and raise families, just as heterosexual couples do?
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. well some people
probably a minority here, I don't know for sure, but I see it from time to time nonetheless, have mentioned they want to press the issue and have Democratic candidates all speek out in support of it even if it costs votes and people who disagree are cowards. I personally consider that cost too high because of the personal health implications for me. :(

but I would have voted against prop 8 since it's standalone.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. you're right.
for the scenario you describe, each person has to vote in his/her own best interest.

The tragedy here is that this was a standalone question, and too many people voted yes.
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obiwan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. Here's how I look at it.
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 12:39 AM by obiwan
People who love each other and commit to each other should get married. Period. Love doesn't know any particular sex. Keep your mores to yourself, and don't impose them on others.

I ask people, "Has your life ever been damaged or irrevocably altered by a homosexual?" Usually, this will shut up most bigots.

BTW, I am a flaming heterosexual. Have been all my life. And I think for myself.

I believe in an individual's freedom. If you are a true progressive, you do too. Everyone deserves to be happy.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. "Everyone deserves to be happy" Well said, my friend! n/t
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Let me challenge that...
"People who love each other and commit to each other should get married."

• 45 year old man and a 3 year old girl love each other and commit to each other. Should they get married?
• John, Sally, and Sue love and commit to each other. Should they be married?
• And Sally is John's daughter, both love and commit to each other. Does that justify marriage?

John loves himself. Can he marry himself?

At what point would you draw the line?
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. John Sally and Sue
Should have the right to do anything they want as long as they are consenting adults. It's called polyamory and there are people on this very board who practice it.

No to the first and third, because no one here is arguing for lowering the age of consent, nor are they arguing for 'incest'.


None of this has a thing to do with gay people being allowed to have legal recogntion of life pertnerships.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. uhhh ... he's referring to consenting adults, not 3-year olds.
your first point is ridiculous.

you second point sounds like polygamy. Frankly, i don't have anything against that if all parties are not coerced or brainwashed into it.


your third point, incest, is a taboo that violates the inherent trust and security in parenting and family relationships. There are valid psychological and physical reasons (as in high rate of genetic mutations in offspring) for it to be illegal.

As far as John wanting to marry himself ... Lifetime already did a movie about that.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. Child molestion and incest aren't "challenges" to that. Consenting adults should be able to marry.
A 3 year old isn't an old.

And no one is advocating for incest.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
58. No. Yes. No. Yes.
Damn. That was easy.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
59. If those offend you, then draw the line at those. Not at gay marriage.
...which I assume you are only worried about because of some bullshit "slippery slope" fantasy the fundy bigots put in your head.

If you have a problem with polygamy or incest, then complain about those and fight against those, but don't insult anyone's intelligence by comparing those to gay people wishing to marry.
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flashback Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #29
67. The line? How about two consenting adults regardless of
sexual orientation should have the right to enter into legally recognized marriage. This isn't about bestiality or pedophilia, this is about two consenting adults. What a stupid argument.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
70. Ah, the dreaded "slippery slope".
let consenting adults make their own decisions and run their own lives, and you'll open the door to all manner of shit--- like people fucking box turtles.



Sen. Cornyn, is that you?

:eyes:
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
74. Comparing gay marriage to peodphilia and incest
is so completely transparent.

Hater. Yep, you are.

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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. If people wanted to be against something -
they should be against people that get married - have kids and get divorced; get re-married to someone else and get divorced again. It really messes up the kids. Kids need stability.

But, even with that, there are reasons why it would be okay. I just feel bad for the kids.

But to be against same sex marriage? Why on earth would anyone care?
Who gets hurt by it? No one! And what right does anyone have to tell another person who they can or cannot marry. I don't get it.
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
25. Marriage is linked to religion
Marriage comes from the church. Homosexuality has no place in the most traditional churches. Therefore no gay-marriage. Unless you come up with gay-friendly religion that accepts it...otherwise, no one will take it seriously.

Maybe you should dig a little deeper into the history of the institution of marriage and its role in society. I bet it has something to do with men ruling over women, finances, and inheritance. Women didn't have any rights. A woman was defined mainly by her husband.



What's the difference between marriage and civil union anyway?
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. What's the difference between separate schools for blacks and whites anyway?
Separate but equal is never equal.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. Keep your Jesus out of my love life and my government n/t
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
42. I guess Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists aren't married.
:eyes:
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. this is 2008, not the dark ages
> Marriage comes from the church. Homosexuality has no place in the most traditional churches.

I'd like to know WHY homosexuality is regarded as a sin in most traditional churches. If they use the "it's in the Bible" excuse, I would counter with
1) point me to the exact passages in the old and new testaments, and prove that it's an accurate translation of language and context.
2) the Bible has stories about incest and slavery. Is that OK?


> Maybe you should dig a little deeper into the history of the institution of marriage and its role in society.

It's time for the definition of marriage to become even more equitable and inclusive. Marriage is a dynamic social relationship. It changes over time. This is the 21st century, and I would hope our society is enlightened enough to recognize that same-sex couples have just as much right to marry and live happily ever after (or not).


> What's the difference between marriage and civil union anyway?

Legally, nothing.
Spiritually, socially, and psychologically, a lot.
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Independent_Voice Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #47
82. Oh, but it's "their faith"...
And they have faith that the Bible survived millenia of monks' handwriting without being altered.

So if that faith is good enough for them, it apparently should be good enough for the rest of us. :eyes:
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
60. Marriage is NOT religious. It's original intent was property transfer.
Religion CHANGED THE DEFINITION to suit it's own purposes, and now claims it as age old sacraments.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
90. Yes, Marriage as a word and institution is embedded with religion. Property laws in most
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 10:28 AM by cryingshame
societies that have ever existed depended not on written social contract (Constitution) but from powers derived from God.

And MOST people think of a ceremony when they think of "Marriage".

Most people do NOT think of "Marriage" as walking into Town Hall and filling out forms.
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flashback Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
68. Park your horse and buggy and join this century, OK?
What does anything have to do with "the church?" What does government and legality have to do with "the church?" Are you American?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
73. Really? Then why do people go to court instead of to church to collect child support?
No church that refuses to marry same sex couples on religious grounds would be forced to do so if gay marriage is legal. Rabbis won't marry you unless one of you is Jewish. Catholics require non-Catholic prospective partners to take classes in church doctrine, and will refuse to marry divorced people.

However, anybody who gets turned down can go to the justice of the peace. That's all LGBT people are asking.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
75. Oh, I see, you are
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 06:54 AM by FlaGranny
suggesting that because some people's religions say so, it should apply to everyone, regardless of the the beliefs of others. That sir, is the reason religion and politics do not mix. Whose religion shall we use to decide what everyone else is allowed to do? Yours?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
84. Um, OBAMA belongs to a church that embraces gay marriage.
You know--the United Church of Christ? Pretty well-known church, there.

:crazy:
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
87. marriage is linked to religion, true, but it is also linked to the state
in this country i need a marriage certificate in order to receive all the legal benefits of marriage, including being covered by my spouse's insurance and benefits under the federal tax code.

if a church wants to deny a gay couple's request to be married in that church or an individual pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/imam whatever declines to perform a ceremony, that's their choice. the state, however, should not be in a position to decide who is and is not married. by doing so, they are creating a separate class of people based on religious beliefs, which, last time i checked, is not acceptable under the constitution or the spirit of the law of the land.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
91. not that it's relevant to government actions, but there are plenty of "gay friendly" religions.
Unitarianism, several Christian denominations... There is a reform temple in my town with a lesbian rabbi.

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joop Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
94. perhaps so but my husband and I are athiest and we were allowed to marry
there's no church that accepts athiesm so should we be denied the right, too?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. I know there were a bunch who voted no because they think everyone should have civil unions.
I know there were a number of people who werent against gay marriage, really just marriage altogether.

I'm not one btw.
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Leeny Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sorry for not doing more
I just feel really awful that Prop. 8 passed. I guess I just didn't think that it would happen. I thought that after the last time (which Prop. was it?) that ugly, homophobic, hateful monster showed its face that people had woken up and wouldn't support it this time. I also feel that the court will have to throw it out AGAIN because it's unconstitutional ... ain't it? And, finally, I hope to god that the Mormon church loses its tax-free status after this.

I wish I'd done more and I apologize to everyone out there.

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
32. im sure that your clear headed calling out will bring them in droves
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 01:22 AM by mkultra
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. To be honest...
I don't support marriage-gay or no, but I also don't want to stop anyone if they so choose this lifestyle. I figure it's none of my business what others choose to do, and if I don't approve of marriage, I simply won't marry.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Choose this lifestyle? EXCUSE ME?!
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. I think they were referring to the *married lifestyle*
but i could be wrong.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
43. 1) It's not a choice. 2) It's not a "lifestyle."
3) You're an idiot.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. AMEN n/t
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
54. instead of calling someone an idiot, could you first try to explain your point of view?
Sometimes, it's just a matter of educating people about the facts.

If he or she continues to adamantly insist that being gay is a choice, in the face of evidence to the contrary, then he or she has earned being "an idiot."
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. It's like explaining evolution to a fundie.
Despite overwhelming and widespread evidence for it, they still haven't managed to figure it out yet.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. the word "lifestyle"
implies that homosexuality, or bisexuality, or transgenders are choices. Wrong.
A person's sexuality is not a choice. A person's sexuality is not influenced by childhood experiences.
A person's sexuality is programmed deep in his/her DNA.

More about the science of homosexuality:
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/born-gay


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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. I believe the word "lifestyle" in that post was referring to marriage,
NOT sexuality.

Lord, the sight is just chock-full of hair triggers lately.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #62
76. Marriage is in no way, shape or form a "lifestyle"
It's about people sharing their LIVES. LGBT people do not have "lifestyles;" we have LIVES.
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
35. I'm not big on marriage of any kind...
...been with my SO for 36 years and never had the slightest desire to get married.

But I do support everyone's right to do whatever the fuck they want, as long as they don't hurt anyone in the process...
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krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
44. why is this in the Presidential section?
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Because that's where the poll was, and I want the posters who posted it to give reasoning...
...behind their ignorance.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
77. If what you do is none of their business, then why is it your business
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 07:17 AM by 1corona4u
to know why they say no? I said it in the poll thread, no one is going to come and tell you why they voted 'no', because people, like you, will just tear them to shreads, instead of trying to understand their POV.

Ya know, sometimes, you get what you give. Think about it.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
49. if you define marriage as a function of religion
which it is
then any religion may allow whoever it wishes to marry under its umbrella
christianity has a problem with homosexuality rooted in its earliest writings and no religion can be expected to act against its dogma

if you define marriage as a civil union
which it is
then there is no exception acceptable under our constitution
equal rights are equal rights


i do wish however that the blame casting would stop
black people did not do this in california
there arent enough of them mathematically
the scapegoating frankly plays into the hands of the GOP as it will be used to divide us

this issue will be settled by americas courts
not americas voters
that unfortunately is a slow process
the upside is that every day fewer and fewer view sexual preference as an issue of major importance
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BarackTheVote Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. First Post...
And I'm gonna be controversial--*gulp* :scared:

Okay... um... I guess maybe I don't really understand the issue. But...

Do I believe the government should force churches to marry people against their established doctrine/dogma? No.
Do I believe the government should stop churches from marrying people if it *is* acceptable according to their dogma? No.
Do I believe the government should issue marriage certificates to gay couples? Yes.
Do I believe civil unions should be granted to gay couples? Yes.

Um... yeah. Let's all just respect each other and each other's beliefs.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. we agree completely
and welcome to DU
be strong and speak your mind
read one extra time before you post
that will save you from going fubar
and use the spellcheck
some here get antsy about some bad spelling
have fun
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. actually, your points are quite reasonable
Some churches will continue, out of deep-seated prejudice, to refuse to recognize the right of gays to marry. It's their loss.

But you're right, the government should issue marriage certificates to gay couples who wish to marry. If I understand it right, I think that's what prop 8 was about. (Someone please correct me if I misunderstood the intent of prop 8.)
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flashback Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. Prop 8 creates an amendment to the CA constitution that
prohibits the right of same-sex couples to marry.

It is discrimination. Plain and simple.
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flashback Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #51
69. Exactly. It has nothing to do with Churches at all.
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flashback Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
50. My family is participating in the protests against Prop H8
I just wanted to let you know that we are not taking this lightly. My wife and I have been taking part in the protests in West LA and W. Hollywood and my Wife is going to get seriously involved in the process, since she works part-time. We will do what we can.

I think that if we could get a vote that is not linked to a Presidential election, the outcome would be much different. Even if the Mormons spend millions on scare advertising again.

Just know that there are a LOT of people out here that are for equal rights for ALL Americans.

Peace.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
52. Why should they have to suffer like I do
:P
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. i agree its just spreading the misery instead of the wealth
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
71. I support gay marriage.
I support civil rights, and equal protection for all Americans. Period.
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Joe the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
72. No offense but....
A man sticking his "thing" in another mans bum is pretty gross, that's just me though, but what you do in the bedroom is your business. If I lived in California or any of the other states that wanted to ban gay marriage I would have voted no simply out of fairness. If a man and woman are allowed to get married why cant a man and another man do the same? or a woman and another woman? Its only fair in my opinion.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. Why do you assume that all gay men do that?
There are just as many different ideas about what makes the mechanics of some specific sexual actions hot and others not among gay people as there are among straight people. Some straight men like anal penetration just fine, and given the wonders of modern polymer chemistry, their female partners can easily provide it for them.

As a bisexual, I can confidently assert that as far as the purely technical parts of sex are concerned, there are fewer differences between men and women than you might think.
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Independent_Voice Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #72
83. But let me guess...
Two lesbians together is pretty tantalizing to you?

Oh, but they have to be "hot" lesbians, right? :eyes:
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #83
93. Yep, one of "them" Homosexuality is "gross" until it's one of your favorite lesbo pornos n/t
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #72
92. I think you sticking your thing in your wife is gross. Get overself n/t
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
79. The older I live (and I am 62), the more I believe that folks should
live and let live. Period. What a person does in his/her own home is none of my/our/anybody's business. I have family members who are gay, my only sister is gay, and I am not against gays adopting either.

So there.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #79
98. I am 60....
...and we totally agree. What the hell goes on in someone else's family/relationship between consenting adults is NOT my business.

And... I fully support gay adoption. Some of the most fantastic parents I have ever met are gays/gay couples. They also seem to have NO problem taking the children that no one else ~~ read straight couples ~~ wants. Bless these loving gay-parented homes and the love they provide to many children that still would be waiting for a home but for the gays who in many jurisdictions were allowed to adopt.

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Fabio Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
81. delete
Edited on Sat Nov-08-08 07:57 AM by Fabio
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
85. A fantastic analysis that skewers the anti-gay marriage excuses
I was going to parse what is written in the article, but figured I'd let the explanations skewering the excuses stay:

Marriage is an institution between one man and one woman.
Well, that's the most often heard argument, one even codified in a recently passed U.S. federal law. Yet it is easily the weakest. Who says what marriage is and by whom it is to be defined? The married? The marriable? Isn't that kind of like allowing a banker to decide who is going to own the money in stored in his vaults? It seems to me that justice demands that if the straight community cannot show a compelling reason to deny the institution of marriage to gay people, it shouldn't be denied. And such simple, nebulous declarations, with no real moral argument behind them, are hardly compelling reasons. They're really more like an expression of prejudice than any kind of a real argument. The concept of not denying people their rights unless you can show a compelling reason to deny them is the very basis of the American ideal of human rights.

Same-sex couples aren't the optimum environment in which to raise children.
That's an interesting one, in light of who society does allow to get married and bring children into their marriage. Check it out: murderers, convicted felons of all sorts, even known child molesters are all allowed to freely marry and procreate, and do so every day, with hardly a second thought, much less a protest, by these same critics. So if children are truly the priority here, why is this allowed? The fact is that many gay couples raise children, adopted and occasionally their own from failed attempts at heterosexual marriages. Lots and lots of scientific studies have shown that the outcomes of the children raised in the homes of gay and lesbian couples are just as good as those of straight couples. The differences have been shown again and again to be insignificant. Psychologists tell us that what makes the difference is the love and commitment of the parents, not their gender. The studies are very clear about that. And gay people are as capable of loving children as fully as anyone else.

Gay relationships are immoral.
Says who? The Bible? Somehow, I always thought that freedom of religion implied the right to freedom from religion as well. The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law, as was made clear by the intent of the First Amendment (and as was very explicitly stated by the founding fathers in their first treaty, the Treaty of Tripoli, in 1791) and because it doesn't, no one has the right to impose rules anyone else simply because of something they percieve to be a moral injunction mandated by the Bible. Not all world religions have a problem with homosexuality; many sects of Buddhism, for example, celebrate gay relationships freely and would like to have the authority to make them legal marriages. In that sense, their religious freedom is being infringed. If one believes in religious freedom, the recognition that opposition to gay marriage is based on religious arguments is reason enough to discount this argument.

Marriages are for procreation and ensuring the continuation of the species.
The proponents of this argument are really hard pressed to explain, if that's the case, why infertile couples are allowed to marry. I, for one, would love to be there when the proponent of such an argument is to explain to his post-menopausal mother or impotent father that since they cannot procreate, they must now surrender their wedding rings and sleep in separate bedrooms. That would be fun to watch! Again, such an argument fails to persuade based on the kinds of marriages society does allow routinely, without even a second thought, and why it really allows them - marriage is about love, sharing and commitment; procreation is, when it comes right down to it, in reality a purely secondary function.

The proponents of the procreation and continuation-of-the-species argument are going to have a really hard time persuading me that the human species is in any real danger of dying out anytime soon through lack of reproductive success.

If ten percent of all the human race that is gay were to suddenly, totally refrain from procreation, I think it is safe to say that the world would probably be significantly better off. One of the world's most serious problems is overpopulation and the increasing anarchy and human misery that is resulting from it. Seems to me that gays would be doing the world a really big favor by not bringing more hungry mouths into a world that is already critically overburdened ecologically by the sheer number of humans it must support. So what is the useful purpose to be served in mindlessly encouraging yet more human reproduction?

Same-sex marriage would threaten the institution of marriage.Well, that one's contradictory right on the face of it. Threaten marriage? By allowing people to marry? That doesn't sound very logical to me. If you allow gay people to marry each other, you no longer encourage them to marry people to whom they feel little attraction, with whom they most often cannot relate adequately sexually, bringing innocent children into already critically stressed marriages. By allowing gay marriage, you would reduce the number of opposite-sex marriages that end up in the divorce courts. If it is the stability of the institution of heterosexual marriage that worries you, then consider that no one would require you or anyone else to participate in a gay marriage. You would still have freedom of choice, of choosing which kind of marriage to participate in -- something more than what you have now. And speaking of divorce -- to argue that the institution of marriage is worth preserving at the cost of requiring involuntary participants to remain in it is a better argument for reforming divorce laws than proscribing gay marriage.

Marriage is traditionally a heterosexual institution.
This is morally the weakest argument. Slavery was also a traditional institution, based on traditions that went back to the very beginnings of human history - further back, even, than marriage as we know it. But by the 19th century, humanity had generally recognized the evils of that institution, and has since made a serious effort to abolish it. Why not recognize the truth -- that there is no moral ground on which to support the tradition of marriage as a strictly heterosexual institution, and remove the restriction?

Same-sex marriage is an untried social experiment.
The American critics of same-sex marriage betray their provincialism with this argument. The fact is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Denmark since 1989 (full marriage rights except for adoption rights and church weddings, and a proposal now exists in the Danish parliament to allow both of those rights as well), and most of the rest of Scandinavia from not long after. Full marriage rights have existed in many Dutch cities for several years, and it was recently made legal nationwide, including the word "marriage" to describe it. In other words, we have a long-running "experiment" to examine for its results -- which have uniformly been positive. Opposition to the Danish law was led by the clergy (much the same as in the States). A survey conducted at the time revealed that 72 percent of Danish clergy were opposed to the law. It was passed anyway, and the change in the attitude of the clergy there has been dramatic -- a survey conducted in 1995 indicated that 89 percent of the Danish clergy now admit that the law is a good one and has had many beneficial effects, including a reduction in suicide, a reduction in the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and in promiscuity and infidelity among gays. Far from leading to the "destruction of Western civilization" as some critics (including the Southern Baptist, Mormon and Catholic churches among others) have warned, the result of the "experiment" has actually been civilizing and strengthening, not just to the institution of marriage, but to society as a whole. So perhaps we should accept the fact that someone else has already done the "experiment" and accept the results as positive. The fact that many churches are not willing to accept this evidence says more about the churches than it does about gay marriage.

Same-sex marriage would start us down a "slippery slope" towards legalized incest, bestial marriage, polygamy and all kinds of other horrible consequences.
A classic example of the reductio ad absurdum fallacy, it is calculated to create fear in the mind of anyone hearing the argument. It is, of course, absolutely without any merit based on experience. If the argument were true, wouldn't that have already happened in countries where forms of legalized gay marriage already exist? Wouldn't they have 'slid' towards legalized incest and bestial marriage? The reality is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Scandinavian countries for over many years, and no such legalization has happened, nor has there been a clamor for it. It's a classic scare tactic - making the end scenario so scary and so horrible that the first step should never be taken. Such are the tactics of the fear and hatemongers.

If concern over the "slippery slope" were the real motive behind this argument, the advocate of this line of reasoning would be equally vocal about the fact that today, even as you read this, convicted murderers, child molesters, known pedophiles, drug pushers, pimps, black market arms dealers, etc., are quite free to marry, and are doing so. Where's the outrage? Of course there isn't any, and that lack of outrage betrays their real motives. This is an anti-gay issue and not a pro marriage issue.

Granting gays the right to marry is a "special" right.
Since ninety percent of the population already have the right to marry the informed, consenting adult of their choice, and would even consider that right a fundamental, constitutionally protected right, since when does extending it to the remaining ten percent constitute a "special" right to that remaining ten percent? As Justice Kennedy observed in his opinion overturning Colorado's infamous Amendment 2 (Roemer vs. Evans), many gay and lesbian Americans are, under current law, denied civil rights protections that others either don't need or assume that everyone else along with themselves, already have. The problem with all that special rights talk is that it proceeds from that very assumption, that because of all the civil rights laws in this country that everyone is already equal, so therefore any rights gay people are being granted must therefore be special. That is most assuredly not the case, especially regarding marriage and all the legal protections that go along with it.

Sodomy should be illegal and was until very recently.
Ah, the ol' sodomy law argument! Why was sodomy illegal in so many states for so long? Because conservative religionists (at whose behest those laws were enacted in the first place) historically blocked or vigorously resisted attempts to repeal them in every state, and were horrified when the U.S. Supreme Court recently overturned the ones that remained.

Indeed, those laws were very rarely enforced (though it did happen), yet there was very stiff and angry opposition to their repeal. Why? Because they were a great tool for a homophobe to use as a basis for legalized discrimination. "Why should I rent an apartment to you, an unconvicted felon?" "I can't have an admitted criminal on my staff." "You're an unconvicted felon. I want you out of my restarurant and off my property." "I don't want you around my children. You're a sex offender!" These were very real, actual arguments that were used frequently as a basis for legalized discrimination, using largely unenforced sodomy laws. So even though this particular moral crusade of the religionists using the power of the police has ended, at least for now, the sodomy laws that made them possible are still being pushed, and pushed hard. Crass politicians, including even president George W. Bush, see votes in homophobia, and continue to push for sodomy law reinstatement as a means of securing those votes. And such laws, which have thoroughly discriminatory effects by intention, will likely will be advocated for as long as politicians see votes in allowing conservative religionists to impose their morality on others, regardless of the violence this does to the intent of the Bill of Rights.

Heterosexuals would never stand for such intrusion into their private sex lives, of course, but the homophobes among them seem to see nothing wrong in using the power of the state to enforce their prejudices. State court systems, however, long ago began to see the violation of the Fourth Amendment in such laws, and nearly as many state sodomy laws were overturned as unconstitutional by state supreme courts as were repealed by state legislatures, before the recent U.S. Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas decision which very pointedly overturned all that remained.

Gay marriage would mean forcing businesses to provide benefits to same-sex couples on the same basis as opposite-sex couples.
While this may or may not be true (based primarily on state labor laws), the reality is that many businesses already do offer these benefits to gay couples, and for sound business reasons. And experience has shown that when they do, the effect on their costs for offering these benefits is minimal - very rarely does the cost of benefits offered to gay couples cause the business' benefits costs to rise by more than 1.5%. This trivial cost is usually far more than offset by the fact that the company is seen as being progressive for having offered these benefits - making its stock much more attractive to socially progressive mutual funds and rights-conscious pension funds and individual investors, and thus increasing upwards pressure on its price. This is why so many corporations, including most of the Fortune 500, already offer these benefits without being required to do so - it's just good business sense.

Gay marriage would force churches to marry gay couples when they have a moral objection to doing so.
This argument, usually advanced by churches that oppose gay marriage, is simply not true. There is nothing in any marriage law, existing or proposed, anywhere in the United States, that does or would have the effect of requiring any church to marry any couple they do not wish to marry. Churches already can refuse any couple they wish, and for any reason that suits them, which many often do, and that would not change. Some churches continue to refuse to marry interracial couples, others interreligious couples, and a few refuse couples with large age disparities and for numerous other reasons. Gay marriage would not change any church's right to refuse to sanctify any marriage entirely as they wish - it would simply offer churches the opportunity to legally marry gay couples if they wish, as some have expressed the desire to do - the freedom of religion would actually be expanded, not contracted.

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm
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DCofVA Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
86. I oppose the institution of marriage in general
It is archaic and sexist.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
95. As I understand it ~~ and someone correct me if I am wrong ~~
one of the DU rules is basically that posters support the rights of gays, lesbians, trans and bi people and posters.

I totally support the right to two consenting adults to form any sort, type and kind of relationship they wish, including but not limited to a marriage sanctioned by all states if legal where performed. None of the DOMA bullshit either ~~ that needs to go pronto!

BTW: I am a senior white female and an atheist ~~ IMO, any church being allowed to dictate secualar law as to what a "family" consists of is totally WRONG!
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
97. I am indifferent to the question of marriage...
gay, straight, multi-partner, whatever. Remove all state, civil and legal privileges from the state of 'marriage' for anyone. At that point I think the issue will work itself out pretty quickly.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Agree and I am pretty much in line with your thinking.
And...if the state has some BS interest in protecting marriage?

Then outlaw divorce, IMO. :hi:
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