May I propose that those of us looking for another cause turn our attention to Prop 8?

[Happyhippychick]

I am raring to go on this one. Is there a place to donate?

[Buzz Clik]

1. We're about 3 months late, but the time is now.

[patrice]

2. Me too! BUT the pragmatist in me wants to know what other issues we can expect

to share with GLBT.

The GLBT Civil Rights issue by itself IS intrinsically worthy of our efforts; there are other issues on the table that are also intrinsically worthy of our efforts.

HOW do we address ALL of what NEEDS to be done unless we agree to quid pro quo up front?

I can't wait to talk anti-prop 8 up with the people I'm around, BUT I also believe in exchanging work for work.

[Bluebear]

4. Do you want to get to drafting up the contract? Do we get any retroactive credit?

You know, for any work we've done in the past for minority rights? Or does the clock start ticking now?

[patrice]

5. I think all of that is stuff people will have to work out with those around them.

But, yeah if I'm going to be working with "you", I DO want to know what "you" have been doing.

I have been talking this way for years, but until recently, everyone was MORE concerned with candidate:party than anything else. And they've been very short-sighted within very narrow perspectives, not interested in psychological and other relationships between things.

[Bluebear]

6. So working for equality is not a mission for "you", unless something is in it for "you"

Are you really, really meaning to sound like that?

[patrice]

8. Civil Rights affects everyone. So do MANY other issues.

If "we" share only a limited set of values, you're going to get only a limited response from me, 1:1. When there are sooooooo many other needs, Why should I give more than I get; are you willing to do that for me/others? If you are, then so am I; if you're not, then neither am I (because -> meet the new boss, same as the old boss).

If my limited, 1:1, response (+ whatever you're getting from others) is enough to put you over the line, GREAT and I'm happy for you, but (even if "you" do quit and go home, having accomplished your own limited purpose) don't expect me to make that success the be all and end all of anything when there are so many others with needs just as severe as GLBT, Others who need Justice too. For example, do you know what Mandatory Minimum Sentencing Guidelines have done to certain communities in the U.S.? Are you aware of how morphine is used as the treatment of choice in certain classes of nursing homes? Since I need my energies for the "big picture", my priority will be to identify those who are in it for the Big Picture with me/others. I'm no saint; from me, those who are more short-sighted will get what they give, but not much more.

[Bluebear]

22. I guess we don't share many values then. Good luck.

[patrice]

29. Guess is right. You never asked. Interesting. Is there only one value?

[mondo joe]

7. You want to barter supporting equality?

WTF?

[patrice]

13. That's right go ahead and tell me that I can't/mustn't make decision about what is right

and wrong for myself. Go ahead and undercut your own position. I don't REALLY need another cause to work for.

Barter/Economics, relationships based upon exchange ARE A FUNDAMENTAL FACT OF LIFE and anyone who wants me to pretend that they are not appears very suspicious to me.

You want me/others to give more than I/they get? NAME (all of) that for which you're willing to give more than you're willing to get and we'll see if we have any matches. Otherwise it's "meet the 'new' boss, SAME as the old boss."

[mondo joe]

17. Make whatever bad choices you want to make. NT

[Bluebear]

20. Anyone who tells me working for equality is barterable is very suspicious to me.

[patrice]

26. Equality is not barterable, but limited time & energy that goes into WORK are.

Are you really asking people to give what time and energy they have available to this cause and then eventually, when the goal is achieved and GLBT can marry, because the goal IS achieved, a bunch of people walk off to pick up their lives where they left off, with no thought to giving or doing anything about OTHER peoples' needs/issues?

Is it really ALL about you?

It is said that one of the reasons prop 8 succeeded in CA is that there wasn't any outreach.

[hulklogan]

12. You say this like LGBT Americans haven't been supporting any progressive causes up to now.

We've been one of the most loyal groups to the Democratic Party and now we need to bargain for a return of that support?

Typical "wait your turn" nonsense if you ask me.

[mondo joe]

18. And if you look at the rate at which LGBT's donate time and money to Dem causes, we

are probably coming in at better than a 1:1 ratio. But that, apparently, is not enough to pay our way for a vote on equal rights.

[patrice]

27. There's a LOT on the table. All I want is some clarity about whom I working with.

I believe that's the point I joined this discussion on: If I'm putting my time and energy into something I want to know what all I share with others who are doing the same.

Simply put, if I were to put 3-4 hours of my time into, for example, writing a pro-GLBT-marriage LTTE, or widely posted forum piece, and then if I were to request something of my co-GLBT-activists, say a phone call to your Senator for pressure against permanent bases in Iraq, would I get a "Not my issue" response?

Do you really mean to tell me that everyone should devote themselves to GLBT Civil Rights without any consideration for whether any of you would give a rat's ass to help someone else?

[Zuiderelle]

14. An odd request, but ok, 1. I've been paying taxes that support the benefits that straight couples

receive from the government for 30 years. (If you add up all the benefits and tax credits I have NOT had that straight people have, it would total well over $100,000.)

2. I've worked for and contributed to causes that support civil rights for African Americans. (I'm not AA but I do put civil rights for African Americans HIGH on my priority list, and always have and always will.)

3. I've contributed to causes that support and promote the welfare of animals.

4. I've contributed and worked for Planned Parenthood and other organizations that support a woman's right of choice (yet I would never have to exercise that right for myself).

5. I've contributed to victims of hurricanes and tsunamis and earthquakes.

6. I've volunteered and contributed to democratic campaigns for candidates who HAVE NOT fought for my rights as a gay American.

Is that enough for you to help us in OUR quest for equal citizenship in this country?

[libnnc]

23. ....

I can't believe you actually have to remind this poster exactly what LGBT folks have given to other causes over the years (without ever EVER asking "what's in this for us")

[patrice]

28. Hey, I'm inclined to agree ANYWAY.

Is it so horrible to think that all of us would be more successful if we add up our numbers by working together more, across issues. That's going to require some clarity.

Isn't this, afterall, the Obama model? What people had trouble accomplishing as isolated and alienated factions, they accomplished by coming together.

In re the issues, there's a special problem: It seems particularly necessary in this time of so much "crossover voting" and "independent this or that, and "free-lancing" that I/we know who we're helping. Personally I don't want to be a part of something that, by means of success, puts others in positions of influence, only for me to find out that those same persons do harm on other issues that I've already put a lot of time and effort into.

Stuff's going to go on about the issues one way or another anyway; the questions are about WHO will do what and with whom. Given a choice, wouldn't it be better to work with pro GLBT folk who aren't going to hurt, and might even help, you on other issues than it would be to help pro GLBT folk who work against your interests in other regards? Do we really want to have to fight each and every one of these battles one at a time and separately?

[libnnc]

24. You do realize that lesbians did most of the leg work in the feminist movement

of the '60s and '70s, right?

[yardwork]

25. Are you seriously suggesting that GLBT people care only about themselves?

Do you have any idea how many GLBT people are active in the healthcare field, to name one of your top issues? How many GLBT people are active in seeking criminal justice? I have a hunch that I contribute a higher percentage of my income than you do to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, Amnesty International, and other "non-GLBT" causes (as you seem to divide things in your binary, GLBT vs. everyone else view of the world). But who knows? Maybe you really are a saint.

[justiceischeap]

3. There sure is

http://www.invalidateprop8.org

You can also join a local PFLAG chapter to educate yourself further about gay issues. http://www.pflag.org

[Happyhippychick]

10. Thank you. I will not rest until this amendment is defeated, I promise you that.

[cali]

9. nope. not me.

I prefer to work on the issue closer to home. I've been doing that for over 10 years now, and I honestly believe that we'll get marriage through our legislature either in this session or the next.

[Zuiderelle]

15. Shame. If we only worked on issues that were closer to home...

we wouldn't have supported women's choice, AA civil rights and hundreds of other things we have supported for decades.

But that's ok, we're used to people not considering OUR civil equality to be of much importance.

[cali]

19. I hope you're kidding. I don't live in CA. I do live in VT

and I've worked on this issue here for over 10 fucking years. Why do YOU think that Vermont lesbians and gays are worth less than gays and lesbians in CA?

And duh, working for marriage for all here, is working for the larger cause of marriage for all everywhere.

[Zuiderelle]

21. My apologies then, it sounded from your post that you were saying that you had other

more important issues to work for.

Sorry. (I went back to re-read your post now, and see that you said "the issue", not "issues" as I had originally read it.)

[Uzybone]

11. Looking for another cause? Obama hasnt even been sworn in yet

How can anyone be looking for another cause? Electing Obama is only the beginning.

Besides IMO gay marriage rights isn't a "cause" its a civil rights issue.

[marlakay]

16. I think what needs to be done is a lot of education

and attacking it in a different way instead of marriage and religion. I am not sure of the answer but many people who are good dems that believe in equality voted for 8 so we need to find a way around the religion part of it.

I heard that the repubs are going to use marriage as their next big issue. I am not sure it will work for president though as most people are sick of divisive politics.

Also propositions have a way of being written so confusing that you can think you are voting for something and really be voting against. Not everyone pays attention and those that just read it in the booth don't understand.

[0955Forrest]

30. mmmm...

3 million Dems flipped on 8 after voting FOR Obama...

A serious case of the "mind your own f-in business" itis.

I can see them in their Prius with the Hope, Change, Imagine World Peace stickers but saying "ewwwwww, gay marriage"

It's honestly not a conservative vs. liberal issue, it's a "what is it to you and why do you care what others do" issue