Who Do You Support, Dean or Emanuel?

[last1standing]

Here at DU, this is probably an easy question. While Dean has a few detractors, there are far fewer now than before the 2006 and 2008 races which proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how effective his 50 state strategy is.

Dean and Emanuel fought each other over the benefit of the 50 state strategy in 2006 with Dean coming out the winner in the end. Because of this, Obama used his strategy and fund raising mechanisms to not only win the Democratic primary but the general election. Had Obama used Rahm's targeted states approach, we'd be moaning about President-elect John McCain right now after losing VA, NC, FL, IN, CO, NV, OH and possibly IA and NM to boot. The targeted approach wouldn't have worked because it was the GOTV effort of the 50 state strategy with dedicated boots on the ground that pulled in the voters. Obama owes much to Dean for his structure building over the last 4 years.

I love Howard Dean for his work and passion. I voted for him in 2004 because I knew that his plan was the path to the White House. His importance to the Democratic party and the progressive movement cannot be overstated, but he has done his work and now is the time for him to step aside.

However, Emanuel is a tough as nails fighter who will demand loyalty to the President and fight for his causes as if they were his own. There is no doubt about that and that is what is needed. I don't like him but I understand his worth.

Howard Dean won the war for us. Perhaps he is saddened that his voice will most likely be diminished in future, but I don't think so. He has gone from the crazy guy yelling into the microphone to the strategist who saved the Democratic party (and possibly the world) in 4 years. Dean may not be remembered by the history books, but he will be remembered in the party for many years to come. And who knows what the future may bring. He will only be 68 in 2016 and may be fighting with Hillary to be called "'45".

It's time to thank Chairman Dean for his part in this historic election and to support our President in his choice of Rahm Emanuel. That is exactly what the Doctor would order.

[Occam Bandage]

1. I don't think it needs to be an "or." I don't see any reason to believe

that Dean's strategies will end as Dean steps down (as he reminded us all he would at the end of '08), nor do I see any reason to believe that Rahm Emanuel will be anything more than an enforcer for the strategies Obama dictates.

[last1standing]

5. I think that's what I expressed in my OP.

Everyone seems to want to choose sides, but I think we need to agree that Howard won the war but move forward with President Obama and his choice for Chief of Staff.

[KittyWampus]

18. Rahm also contributed to increasing the Democratic majority.

[last1standing]

31. Emanuel and Schumer definitely played their parts.

But their efforts would never have netted us the gains we made in solid red states without Dean's 50 state strategy. That's where the real brilliance of Dean came out. He created long term plans to take back the House and Senate whereas the prevailing wisdom had been to focus on the presidency and hope that coat tails would drag some red staters along. Dean knew that we had to build from the bottom up.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I support Barack Obama.

And I support his decisions.

I also support Hillary Clinton, and she didn't support my guy initially.

I support Emanuel for Chief of Staff.
I support Howard Dean as DNC Chair.

So it seems "All good".

[cali]

10. Howard is done with being DNC chair.

That's just the way he wants it.

[babylonsister]

3. Both. Why would it be either/or? Their disagreement is history. nt

[last1standing]

6. If you haven't read the full OP, please do.

That's exactly my point.

[babylonsister]

7. I read it; title seems divisive to me. nt

[last1standing]

11. I wrote it that way because most of the discussion is focused on either/or.

I wanted to point out that it isn't a matter of choosing one or the other. I'm the biggest Dean supporter at DU (outside MadFloridian) but even I see that both Dean and Emanuel have their part to play.

[madfloridian]

17. That's the problem. Rahm never saw it that way.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3042

He has despised that the party chairman tried to open up the party to those of us outside DC.

Now that has been taken care of. They don't have to worry now.

[BlueCaliDem]

4. You're absolutely right, of course. I just hope that Rahm, who's known as the guy

..."who can get things done" will do so in line with President Obama and his promises, not the DLC's.

[last1standing]

8. I would be very surprised to see that happen.

And he wouldn't last long if he did.

[BlueCaliDem]

14. If you're right, then Obama truly is the one we've been hoping for. eom

[LittleClarkie]

9. I see a both/and

They operate in different realms and can keep out of each others way. In fact, this new job for Emanuel should keep he and Dean from conflicting as much.

[gravity]

12. They both have their role in the Democratic party's success

[madfloridian]

13. I have a long way to go accepting.

I am sorry, but being an a**hole seems to make someone a hero here now.

So be it.

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to anyone that many right wing blogs are giving Dean some credit while our own Democrats do not so much as mention his name.

Why is that okay?

He deserved better.

But then again who cares anymore what we think? The choice of Rahm sent just as powerful a message to the grassroots as it did to the GOP...stay out of the way.

[last1standing]

21. You've never understood Dean's intentions, MF.

I love Dean and support him to the ends of the earth, but I understand why he is going into a background position. Dean has revolutionized the party, bringing it back from the dead, but in the end he did it for us, not for himself. He's a doctor who cured his patient but he can't control what that patient does after he's well again. Did you not notice that Dean stayed in the background during the 2008 election? He did that because he understands that his role was to win the presidency and seats in congress, which he did. It wasn't to voice his political philosophy because that isn't his role.

Dean is not staying on at the DNC because he never wanted to stay past 2008. He has said this many times. He was a brilliant leader for the party when there was no one else with the vision and perseverance to do the job, but now we have someone else who runs the party, Barack Obama. I hope that Dean is not overlooked for a position where he could do incredible good, but that choice must fall upon the President who will make the decisions he feels best.

It also isn't Emanuel's role to voice his political philosophy. His role is to loyally support the President in every policy the President espouses. He will do this to the best of his ability. In fact, I'd rather have him as CoS than one of the most influential representatives because now there's a better chance the grassroots will be heard.

I thank Howard Dean for all he has given us and I will vote for him on any ballot his name appears on. I will also trust him to believe that unless he criticizes the pick of Emanuel, that I should support him in that as well.

[madfloridian]

25. I understood he wanted to open the party.

He tried. It's over.

Rahm's the man of the hour now.

Our hero.

We stopped our donations last week when we heard abou Rahm's new power role.

You can try to put me down, shame me, do what ever.

I would highly recommend we who wanted change not sit back in complacency.

[last1standing]

27. It's not all about you, MF, it's about all of us.

I'm not trying to put you down or shame you, I'm trying to say that every imagined slight against Howard Dean is not a personal attack on you or the grass roots. But this is always where it goes with you because you won't accept anything but what you want in all instances. That's why you're always let down in the end. Politics, by its very nature, is compromise.

Sorry to be harsh but there really isn't any nicer way of saying it.

[madfloridian]

30. Be harsh all you want with me. I don't care. But keep your eyes open

and your mind open.

You can say whatever you want to say to me...I am so used to it now.

This is no longer about Dean...this is about where our party is going. This pick made it clear.

You can put me down all you want...it just does not matter. It is done.

The choice of Rahm sent a message. Keep your eyes open, call me whatever, make me the scapegoat fo those who think things are looking a wee bit funny right now.

[last1standing]

33. Can you please stop telling me I can put you down and crap? No one is insulting you.

That's what makes it so difficult to have a discussion with you, MF. As soon as you get upset you start talking about being insulted and made fun of. This isn't about that at all. You're not being made a scapegoat, there's not even a situation that needs one.

I'm saying give Obama a chance to show what he can do with people and the office. You're not giving him that chance.

[madfloridian]

36. That was his first choice.

It tells us something.

Why are you so angry because I am wary? I have posted much on the topic of Rahm since 2006 and even before. I am not uninformed, and I am not inclined to be favorable toward him.

I don't have a choice to give him a chance. The decision was made a while ago anyway. It's done.

I will have my say, but it won't matter.

[last1standing]

44. I'm not angry, I'm disappointed that you're slamming Obama's choices then pretending to be a victim.

As a realist, I knew Emanuel was going to be placed somewhere in the administration. I can't think of too many better places than CoS. If you can, then please let us know what position you would have preferred, knowing that he was going to be given a role.

[madfloridian]

65. I have said so many times...he has contempt for activists.

That has what has hurt our party for many decades. The contempt for activists. I have written a lot about it.

Dean embraced activists, now he is gone.

It worries me.

[last1standing]

68. Then demand that Dean stay on at the DNC.

But remember, you'll have to demand it to Dean, himself, who is the one who made this decision over a year ago. I want him involved in shaping the future of the party just as much as you do, but I understand that he has to make that decision for himself.

[madfloridian]

72. What is wrong with you today. You started this divisive, so you must..

take what we say.

I get told that all the time.

[last1standing]

74. Nope. I was pointing out that Dean is where he wanted to be at this point. Hero of the Party.

You decided to spread misleading info and trash our incoming President. You also acted like I was insulting you, which I wasn't.

I'm saying that this decision to appoint Emanuel doesn't mean that Dean isn't being honored or that he won't have a position of prestige in the Obama White House. Give him more than five days to show us what he intends to do.

[movonne]

78. I'm not sure Dean is gone...I saw somewhere that he is on the list for

Dept of Health or some such...and I'm not a fan of Rahm's either but I'm sure willing to give Obama a chance...he has so many problems to solve and I think he knows who is best for him at this time..

[madfloridian]

80. Daschle is probably going to get that post. He's more inside than Dean.

So you think if we question Rahm that we are not giving Obama a chance?

[Blue_In_AK]

15. I prefer Dean

I have issues with Rahm Emanuel regarding his getting involved with Alaska's Democratic House primary. It's just a personal thing.

[KittyWampus]

16. I support both, wholeheartedly. Both had slightly different goals and strategies

frankly, anyone who doesn't get that is pretty uninformed.

[madfloridian]

19. But only Rahm remains.

.

[last1standing]

47. Stop pretending that Dean has been forced out. Dean made this decision over a year ago.

You know that as well as anyone if not better. Why are you misleading others?

[madfloridian]

70. Stop accusing me of misleading. That is like calling me a liar.

and it is making me even angrier.

Obama made this choice. It has put many of us on guard.

He made the choice, it is his right.

It is my right to realize we failed as activists. We helped win the election but we lost the war. The insiders got their party back.

[last1standing]

81. It is, isn't it? So stop misleading people.

By the way, it's your right to BELIEVE you have failed as an activist. Realization is based on fact, not your rights.

[lojasmo]

20. I am a howard dean democrat.

I support my president.

[XemaSab]

22. I think Obama needs to be the daddy in THAT household

Let Howard do what he's good at, and let Emanuel do what HE'S good at.

That being said, I think Obama should put Howard in charge of being my boyfriend. :squee:

[madfloridian]

23. Howard's not part of the "household".

His name is not mentioned.

[last1standing]

29. His name isn't mentioned FIVE DAYS after the election.

Won't you at least give Obama a little time?

[madfloridian]

40. That's not my choice.

The Republican blogs are crediting him. So that's good.

[PassingFair]

24. I support Howard Dean.

He is my favorite Democrat.

I will throw my dollars and support
to which ever endeavor he chooses.

I hope he will continue to clean up
our party. We still have a BIG job to
do before we can be proud of being Democrats.

"What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President's unilateral intervention in Iraq?

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting tax cuts, which have bankrupted this country and given us the largest deficit in the history of the United States?

What I want to know is why the Congress is fighting over the Patient's Bill of Rights? The Patient's Bill of Rights is a good bill, but not one more person gets health insurance and it's not 5 cents cheaper.

What I want to know is why the Democrats in Congress aren't standing up for us, joining every other industrialized country on the face of the Earth in providing health insurance for every man, woman and child in America.

What I want to know is why so many folks in Congress are voting for the President's Education Bill-- "The No School Board Left Standing Bill"-- the largest unfunded mandate in the history of our educational system!

As Paul Wellstone said-- as Sheila Kuehl said when she endorsed me-- I am Howard Dean, and I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party."


http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Dean_Sacramento_Speech_15March2003.htm

[dailykoff]

26. Can you give a little more background?

Has Dean openly objected to Emanuel, and has anybody actually asked him to step aside? Sorry but I just haven't heard about any of this.

For the record, I think Emanuel is an absolutely dismal choice for CoS. He's a war-monger and a Wall Street player. Do we really need four more years of that shit?

[last1standing]

28. Dean didn't object to Emanuel and he had always intended to step down after the election.

There aren't even any rumors that Dean is unhappy with the choice.

And yes, Emanuel is very much the insider in Washington, but as CoS he won't be casting votes.

[dailykoff]

32. In terms of their war positions alone I much prefer Dean to Rahm.

I don't see Rahm closing Guantanemo, investigating Abu Ghraib, torture, or anything else, and I have a feeling he'll be gunning for a war with Iran. And yes, he's got himself into an incredibly powerful and influential position, particularly since he's got a direct line to Obama's Wall Street backers and can use campaign contributions as a highly effective quid pro quo.

[last1standing]

34. It's a good thing Emanuel isn't going to make those decisions.

Obama is and we know what Obama thinks of all those things. Emanuel is there to ensure that others follow along. If he doesn't then Obama will get a new CoS.

Why does everyone think that the Cos is the one really making the decisions? I just don't get it.

[dailykoff]

35. Rahm will be sure to tell him which players will drop their support if he doesn't nuke Iran.

Come on, don't be naive. Lieberman didn't have an official position in McCain's campaign either.

[madfloridian]

38. I am glad you said it so I did not have to.

AIPAC

[dailykoff]

41. It's a very disturbing choice.

Maybe Obama is just playing to a constituency but WH chief of staff is not exactly a symbolic appointment.

[last1standing]

42. If you didn't know that Emanuel and Obama were very close then I'm not the naive one.

It was always expected that Emanuel would have a place in Obama's administration. I'm just glad it's Cos and not something like SoS or SoD. Emanuel will certainly have some influence, but then he already did so it's a not a massive difference.

Too many think that Emanuel is going to run the entire White House and its policies domestic and foreign. If that's how things ran then Cheney would have appointed himself to that position instead of VP.

[dailykoff]

43. Funny you mention Cheney

because that's exactly who comes to mind. Rahm was his first and so far only post-election appointment and it seems pretty clear that the deal was cut some time ago, and it doesn't sound like the kind of deal he was elected to cut.

[last1standing]

45. They're old friends and that trust each other.

If you want to see some sort of shady backroom deal created for the advancement of AIPAC then you're free to do so. It sort of makes your advocacy throughout the last year seem rather shallow but it's your choice.

[dailykoff]

48. Rahm was "neutral" until the bitter end.

Try to tell me he was ever for Obama until he had to be.

[last1standing]

50. And?

I never said he was an Obama supporter during the primaries. He had conflicting loyalties so he sat it out. Still doesn't change what I said.

[dailykoff]

52. And he's a snake.

Why you want to rewrite history I can't even begin to figure out.

[last1standing]

55. You can't figure it out because I haven't done it.

Where have I rewritten history? Please explain.

[dailykoff]

57. Pretending Rahm is some kind of loyal Obama supporter is bunk.

He's a money boy who got himself this appointment through some kind of stinky deal and that's exactly how Dumbya got himself stuck in Iraq.

[last1standing]

60. Do you really think so little of Obama to believe he would do that?

You were a fierce proponent of Obama in the primaries. Is one decision enough to change all that?

[dailykoff]

61. I have no illusions, and it isn't just one decision.

There was FISA, there was the bailout, now there's Rahm. I still think he was the best available candidate, but I also think he'll tack right unless WE THE PEOPLE make sure he doesn't, if we can.

[last1standing]

63. I'm all for shouting our will from the rooftops.

But this isn't the right battle. It's very unlikely that Emanuel's policies are going to trump Obama's. The real worry is that, as a Centrist, Obama's policies are already the same as Emanuel's. That's what need to be fought.

I'm saying that Obama has chosen someone who I can't stand, but he may be an excellent choice. I'm willing to wait to see what the actual policy positions that come out of the White House are before I start lighting the torches. I'm also advocating that the rest of us do the same.

Also, I'm saying that this wasn't some grand battle between Emanuel and Dean. Dean never planned on staying at the DNC past December 2008 and he certainly never aspired to be the CoS - the role wouldn't suit him. I think we just need to wait and see what becomes of Howard before we throw anyone under a bus.

[dailykoff]

67. OK. But I differ on strategy. EVERY battle is the right battle, especially now.

He's won the office so there's no reason to tiptoe around the big issues, and war with Iran is a BIG issue, and appointing Rahm is a directly connected to it, whether you want to admit it or not.

[last1standing]

73. I'm very willing to admit that Emanuel is tied to the Iraq War.

I'm also willing to admit and agree with just about every policy you hate about the guy. I'm not willing to admit that his choice as CoS was a shady backroom deal that Obama was against or that AIPAC is going to continue to control our foreign policy.

We'll soon see who is right. If Obama does a reversal on Iraq or goes into Iran on some flimsy pretext then you were right. If he follows through on his campaign rhetoric then I was right. Only time will tell.

[dailykoff]

46. BTW Rahm didn't even get involved until Hillary stepped down in JUNE.

He was a Clintonista and shouldn't even be in this admin, let alone be appointed Obama's personal Iago.

[last1standing]

49. I bet you feel really bad for supporting Obama so strongly now, huh?

I mean it's already been decided that he's going to be nothing but a conduit for Emanuel's shady dealings so it would have been best to just sit out the process, right? :eyes:

[dailykoff]

51. WTF? Stick to the damn subject. Rahm is a naked opportunist

and will use Obama for his own purposes just like he's used every other pol he's ever "supported."

[last1standing]

54. If you read the OP, that IS the subject.

Your shallow support is working to doom this presidency before it even begins.

[dailykoff]

56. Look, you were a big Dean supporter as I recall.

Now you're willing to kick him under the bus because some snake doesn't like him? What kind of loyalty is that?

[last1standing]

58. I'm still a massive Dean supporter and would never kick him under the bus.

But I'm also a supporter of the President-elect and think we need to give him more than five days to pick his entire staff and show his political direction before we start slamming him. Emanuel may be a horrible choice for CoS, but he may be a great one. It will entirely depend on whether he loyally supports his President and we can't know that yet.

My sincerest hope is that Dean is given a position worthy of this service. He should take on HHS or DoE, in my opinion because he has the ability to create a lot of good in both areas. I could also see him as becoming the Energy Czar or Sec of Interior. But we have to give Obama some time to show us what his full intentions are, not just jump down his throat because we don't like the first one.

[dailykoff]

62. Oh please. The whole post is a false choice propagandizing support of Rahm.

Maybe you like him, but I complete mistrust him and feel no compulsion whatsoever to support Obama's deeply cynical first appointment.

[last1standing]

66. FAIL! I'm propagandizing support for President Obama.

And I can't stand Emanuel but I can still understand that it's better to use his skills than to let them run rogue in the Congress.

By the way, it's a lot easier to fire a CoS than a representative. Something to think about.

[dailykoff]

69. Why did you set it up as an either-or then?

Maybe I just didn't get the point but I think we need Dean now more than ever, and we sure as hell DON'T need Rahm.

[last1standing]

76. If you read through the OP you'll see that I was pointing out that its not an either/or.

The point is that most people here are jumping on the Hate Bandwagon against either Dean or Emanuel and that doesn't help anyone. Emanuel may prove to be very good at his job and Dean may be chosen to lead an important department. Regardless, I think we actually diminish Dean's legacy if we divide the party, again, before he even leaves his post as DNC chair.

Howard Dean led the Democratic party to victory because he believes in the party. I'm going to continue to believe in Dean.

[vaberella]

37. I like both immensely. I just think Dean is good where he is as head of the DNC.

But he wants out I believe so that's the end of that. However, without him Obama's run and the eventual dominance of the Democratic party would not be possible.

[madfloridian]

39. That's the point. He's out of there, and they are laying off staffers

from the 50 state plan...

[last1standing]

53. Once again, you know better than this.

It was never intended that the DNC would keep a full election ready team in every state. We don't know what's going to happen after Dean leaves his chairmanship but you're spreading misinformation at breakneck speed.

[madfloridian]

64. No....that is not what I said. You need to stop and think what you say

1. It was Dean's plan to have a permanent staff in every state..NOT at election ready status, but there to win down ticket races.

2. The staffers were given notice. They will not be hired back. IF there is hiring back it will not be the ones who helped win....it will be others. That's fine in one way, but how does it feel to win and be laid off...thanks but you're gone???

[last1standing]

77. Once again, we don't know what is happening.

We do know the DNC is broke and can't fund as many staffers as it could before the election. We do know that Obama supports the 50 state strategy - if he didn't he wouldn't have used it. We know that Obama is not an idiot so he's unlikely to dismantle an operation that will be essential to his reelection.

So based on what we do know I'm willing to bet that the 50 state strategy of boots on the ground will continue - altered and refined, but continued.

[Imagevision]

59. Emanuel bigtime, if Obama chose him? - no problems...

[wyldwolf]

71. how about both?

Though I protest the unfair characterization of Emanuel by those who've elevated Dean to messiah levels.

Although I (and, in fact, history) disagrees about your assessment of the outcome of 2006.

[sampsonblk]

75. Dean was 100% right, but I still support both - nt

[AtomicKitten]

79. FFS! Asking people to choose up sides is just f*cking nuts.

[last1standing]

82. I agree, which is what I said in the OP. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

84. and I thank you for a voice of reason instead of division

[book_worm]

83. Dean was vindicated on 50-state stragegy and Raum is the kind of hard ass a president needs to have

as Chief of Staff. So I support both.

[camera obscura]

85. Great post, recced