The blame for PROP 8 lays squarely on .....

[Blarch]

RELIGION.

Like it or not.

Most gay and lesbians are religious. And it is safe to say that most gay and lesbian people would want their religion to recruit MORE people into it.

So stop pointing fingers and go look in the mirror. Religion is keeping you down ...yet most embrace it.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/10/08/mucci_narrowweb__300x464,2.jpg

[Lerkfish]

1. ?

what are you proposing?

[Blarch]

3. I don't like to hear the gay community ...

complaining about Prop 8 when they themselves embrace religion. The hypocrisy doesn't look good. And blaming black people in Calli REALLY doesn't look good.

It's one or the other, can't be both.

[Lerkfish]

9. oh. well, in my view its a lot more complicated than any particular group

I think there are people that support tolerance or acceptance and those that do not, and they exist in varying numbers across nearly all groups. I think people that accept GLBT or don't, do so for personal reasons that trump their inclusion in any other group.

I think its pointless to target a group and more worthwhile to educate and expose to those people how normal and human GLBT people are.

nothing else, in the long run, is going to work. People that fear "the gay" will insist on doing so unless personal experience changes that fear, and that fear runs deeper than inclusion in any other group.

not sure if I"m explaining myself well enough, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

For example, where I grew up, the most right wing fundie crazy family were forced to reevaluate their prejudices when a son came out. Since they had always loved that son, they either had to abandon their prejudices or abandon their son. Ultimately they came around and through personal contact with a gay person, came to adjust their attitudes. I'm glad to say they changed in a good way. But it had absolutely nothing to do with their church.

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. actually, I think a lot of it rests on the "No" organizers

who basically hid the word "gay" from the discussion at all and tried to shrowd it under a banner of "civil rights" instead of coming right out and saying "yeah, it's gay marriage, and the big deal is...what?"

At least, that's the impression I get from Andrew Sullivan, who followed the matter closely and, you know, is gay and strongly opposed to Prop 8.

[ccharles000]

4. I am gay and an agnostic.

I have a lesbian cousin and she is pagan and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Blarch]

5. Like I said...

MOST gay people embrace god.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. What planet are you from?

Where did you get this notion that most GLBT folk are religious? Sure some, but in no way most. Few gay people I know ever go to church and most avoid religion like the plauge that it has been in their lives. I'd say most gay folk are spiritual but I've known far more wiccans and pagans that anyone in a mainstream church.
This is one of the strangest things I have ever read in my life and I am over 40 and I read a lot. Very innacurate.

[Blarch]

8. really ?

most gay people DON'T believe in god ? ... I simply can't believe that.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Well that is a different question

Your OP is about religion, and specifically says that most gay folk go to church and would like to bring others into their religion, and I said you are nuts.
Now you drag God into it, and that is not the same thing. Not at all.
Do you want to talk about a belife in the divine, or about religion in its institutional form? Your OP was about organized religion and I say again, most gay folk reject that.
Your other question is like the first in that the answer for gay folk is about the same as for straights, many different thoughts but few would probably conform to the organized relgious 'God' concept at all.

[Blarch]

14. "most gay folk reject that."

I doubt most gay folk reject organized religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Well you'd be wrong

frankly I've only know one or two members of my community who were involved in regular religous services at all. Out of hundreds of people, perhaps a dozen or so.
Upon what do you base your doubt? I mean, what do you know about it? Are you talking about the gay folk on your street, or like myself, gay folk worldwide?

[Lerkfish]

10. United Church of Christ has many GLBT members

I'm just sayin.

:shrug:

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Of course

But many is not most. Most GLBT folks don't embrace religion. Just saying. A tiny amount do. Never said they didn't. And UCC teaches inclusivity and practices it. The OP was saying most gay folk are religious, which is false, and that most would recuit new members into a religion that teaches against their own beings. UCC does not fit that bill. And again 'most GLBT people embrace religion' is just false. False. Add embrace a negative church and it is more false. UCC does not teach hate, so they don't count under the OP's theory at all.

[LittleClarkie]

29. Wouldn't mind seeing some poll numbers

Has there been such a poll?

[LittleClarkie]

28. Planet Me

Sorry. Tick moment.

[Curtland1015]

7. Religion isn't the problem. Bigots using religion to enforce their stupidity is.

It's not "God's" fault, it's people's ignorance.

[Bubbha Jo]

11. It's not the people. It's the religious textbook some believe in. N/T

[Blarch]

13. "It's not "God's" fault, it's people's ignorance."

Simply not true. god is the reason for all the hate. Lets be honest now.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

[JuniperLea]

15. God never told people to force his laws upon everyone else

That's where the problem lies. Had God wanted his laws strictly enforced, he would have enforced them himself. And there would have been no reason to leave heaven, let alone the garden.

[Curtland1015]

16. The bible also says to kill people with tatoos and be nice to your slaves.

There is crazy garbage all through the bible that doesn't make sense. People taking out what they want to use and hiding what they don't is a big part of the problem.

[Blarch]

19. I agree. The bible IS crazy shit.

and when people fall under it's spell, they end up supporting crazy shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. You don't see people banning seafood or different types of fabric.

It's not religious, it's political. It's a movement acting through religion to disenfranchise an undesirable minority du jour.

You scapegoating religion is just playing into their hands.

Don't fall for it.

[goletian]

25. godhatesshrimp.com

[JuniperLea]

20. I bet gay people are just like the rest of us...

Shocking, huh? :eyes:

I don't believe there are greater or fewer gay believers/agnostics/atheists than there are in the hetero population.

God never told us to force his laws upon everyone else. If he wanted all his laws followed by everyone, he would have made it happen. And then there would have been no reason to boot us all out of heaven, and no reason for the garden either.

People who spout God's laws need to learn more about them.

[TheKentuckian]

22. The fault is with those who wish to use their religious beliefs

for the basis of a secular government.

Its real simple, if you have some article of faith you want to be law then you better find a way to frame it it into secular reasoning and be able to do so without referencing your holy book of choice as the justification.

I see no reason to indict any religion when the reality is the problem is with the people. The state is restricted for the protection of the people and the church it's self, from establishing religion and I would interpret that to equally mean that religion cannot be used to establish the state (aka the law).

Get everyone on the same page that our laws are not and cannot be based on it says in the ______ that ______ is wrong and all these problems will go the way of the dinosaur quick.
The Theocrats create the danger to our society not any religion or faith.

[Blarch]

24. I disagree.

Here is how I see it.

The bible states that gays are bad, and should be frowned upon to say the least.

The masses read this, and some are told this in church.

The masses vote yes on prop 8 because their church and bible told them so.


To claim religion isn't pushing the hate we see is absurd. The hate we see today comes from the bible.

[tunacan]

26. What I don't get is,

every Christian "knows" that Jesus came and taught love-- it's in the Bible. So why all this hate?

[anigbrowl]

31. I'm with you. All 3 Middle Eastern religions are basically intolerant of homosexuality

...along with a bunch of other things. Monotheism in general sucks.

[Alenne]

23. The blame for PROP 8 lays squarely on

the people who voted for it. To blame a certain race or religion is stupid.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Thank you! Religion is merely a tool. To blame religion is like blaming the gun

for shooting someone.

Blame those who used to tool for evil.

[LittleClarkie]

27. So what are you trying to say? Gay and lesbian religious people voted against themselves

based on their religion?

Not every denomination preaches such things, you do realize. It is possible to be gay and a Christian and not be like the person in your picture. I knew a guy who was the son of a pastor who was quite strong in his faith and didn't feel it put him down as a gay person.