"We've been going about this all wrong. I blame myself." (Prop 8)

[Clio the Leo]

Nah, I dont really blame myself, I just like to quote from "The Sandlot" whenever I can. :)

I have just finished watching KO's Special Comment regarding Prop 8. I heard him express, as only he can, the same arguments I've heard re: this matter over and over.

I think I have a unique insight into all of this. I am a bleeding heart liberal AND a member of the Church of Christ. Those of you who are familiar with us know that we follow and interpret the New Testament down to the letter. Literally. But my personal religious beliefs run concurrent with what I would openly consider to be my socialist tendencies. I believe what I believe, but I fully realize the very reason why I am ALLOWED to believe what I do is that God made us all free moral agents with the ability to choose to live as we want. Just under those God-given rights are those insured by the Constitution. The very freedom that allows me to openly worship God are the same rights that should allow someone to marry whomever they like. *I* get that, but I understand it's a unique viewpoint.

But I know how the religious-right mind works.

And here's the problem. KO offered up several reasons as to why Prop 8 should have been voted in. The arguments he used (and others have used) simply won't work.

He said that 50 years ago, blacks and whites weren't allowed to marry. Bad analogy. The right understands being black is not a sin, their thoughts on homosexuality are obviously different. To them, it's apples and oranges.

He said that gay couples "only want to be happy." The religious right spends most of their time denying ... or at least claiming to deny .... things that would make them happy in order to adhere to their faith. It would make me abundantly happy to be the biggest whore in town, but I'm not. Because I believe it's wrong. So to argue that gays and lesbians merely want to be happy is not going to work. Why would someone grant happiness to someone when they are denying it to themselves?

We have to find SOME way to make the right understand the thing that my Church of Christ minister father raised me on. "If you deny freedom to someone, you deny it to yourself." Freedom does not come in tiny pieces to be traded or denied. We either have it or we don't.

Not until we make the right understand that any threat to civil liberty endangers the very faith that they hold dear will we make any progress.

Good luck with that ........ 'cause I haven't got a clue.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Very eloquent and well said...and it would convince anyone with half a brain and a heart.

I just think that those RW fundies are too selfish to consider liberty as something that we all have a part in preserving. They would probably consider that "socialism". I do not have any insight as to how to convince them..but appealing to their better nature is not the answer. I am not sure there is a better nature to some of them. They are so torn by fear and it seems to be what the core of their religion is.

[Clio the Leo]

3. There is a better nature in all of us.....

.... and I know because my Brother Barack told me so. :)

The problem is that the core of the right's religious beliefs is not fear ..... but pride and vanity.

Maybe we could try pointing out that the Apostles never tried to run for public office and get any laws passed. ha

[Booster]

2. It's very simple. Give everyone, straight, gay, married and single

the same benefits married people have now - end of argument.

[Clio the Leo]

4. "But it's a sin and I have to stop people from sinning!"

Is the response you'd get.

[Booster]

5. A woman I know argued with me that "we have to stop this

because in the future our children will grow up and choose to be gay, and there will no more children after that happens". I shit you not - how ignorant do you have to be to believe that?

[Clio the Leo]

16. I bet she also thinks Obama wasn't born in the US doesn't she?

We really need to start cutting SOME people out of our social circles. :)

[yardwork]

18. Pretty ignorant. I'm a lesbian and I have two children.

[DaveinMD]

6. its not about convincing the far right

its about convincing the people in the middle over to our side.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. They *say* they think it's a sin. I don't believe they really believe it..

>>>>He said that 50 years ago, blacks and whites weren't allowed to marry. Bad analogy. The right understands being black is not a sin, their thoughts on homosexuality are obviously different. To them, it's apples and oranges. >>>>

Their thoughts are *superficially* "different". Without an outgroup ( think Jews, "Mohammedans", heretics, blacks) there is no *in* group.

And being in the in group is what it's all about.

Gays are the scapegoat of the moment; the target of opportunity of this time and this place.

Really: without gays, what would these "exclusionary clubs", as Woody Allen called them, do?

[Clio the Leo]

11. I promise you, they think it's a sin.....

... seriously, I can give you names and phone numbers of plenty of folks who would be more than happy to tell you that's what they believe. :)

[firedupdem]

12. I pm'd you. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. I'm sure. That's my point; it sounds a lot better than,

..."I want/need to feel included in something strong and powerful ( ingroup) and therefore I'm going to persuade myself that there is something sinful ( sexually, in this case; racially or on the basis of religious doctrine down through recorded history)about you: the conveniently small-in-numbers outgroup."

Really... what else is homosexuality if not a variety of heresy?


>>>seriously, I can give you names and phone numbers of plenty of folks who would be more than happy to tell you that's what they believe. >>>>>>

[Clio the Leo]

15. Yeah, I love ya Paul but, you're making it WAY more complex than it is....

.... again, I'm speaking in part about a SPECIFIC religious denomination who PRIDES itself on running against the REST of the Christian mainstream.

I'm usually all about jumping on the "lets bash the great white men crowd because they think they're better than us" but this is not one of those occasions.

Trust me, I know these people like I know the back of my hand.

[tpi10d]

8. multipronged approach

We were within 5% (5 out of a hundred people) on this. We don't have to change everyone's mind, just the easiest 10%.

I think any future election battles via state proposition should have a different team running each successive one. Different approaches may yield a magic bullet.

I think an outreach to Hispanic community is in order. Targeted advertising, community leader endorsements, canvassing, GOTV etc. Again not with the idea of a massive transformation, just shoot for 10-15% improvement.

If you're familiar with LA county see this:
http://projects.latimes.com/elections/la-county-prop-8-results-by-city/

There was some soft support for prop 8. Lets target these people, donate and possibly mimic Obama's ground game. We knew McCain had a base of at least 40%. Probably gay marriage opponents also have base of about 40%. But I strongly feel there are 10% CA. citizens who could easily change their minds on this issue. Any strategies must include the Hispanic community and GOTV.

[MattNC]

9. "The Sandlot" is a classic! n/t

[Clio the Leo]

13. Ain't it though!

I have been PRAYING that someone would respond by saying "You're killing me Smalls!" but no.

[anonymous171]

10. Frame the debate as a Civil Rights issue and not an emotional/moral one

The RW loves to talk about "morals." Take that away from them and they will have nothing to argue with.

[yardwork]

17. The Church of Christ is an awesome denomination! Thank you!