An Open Message to Anyone Feeling Offended

[yardwork]

To anyone who feels that their religious institution is being disrespected as a result of the anti-gay measures passed in four states last election day -

If you feel that your group is being attacked because of its successful efforts to take away rights from a minority group, just think of how gay people feel. Ours were the rights that were taken away.

I don't agree with broad-brush condemnations of any group of people. People are individuals. It's obviously unfair and incorrect to say that all members of your group are homophobic. However, based on your organization's actions, it is clear that its leadership is homophobic. They made a big effort to take away gay people's rights. They spent a lot of time and money and energy working to deny a minority group of human rights.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt by comments people are making about your group, but imagine how much worse gay people feel. Not only does your group publicly condemn us as "abominations," it is using its significant power and wealth to strip us of the few rights we've gained and make sure that we'll never have any more.

It might be more productive for enlightened members of your group, like yourself, to work on improving it from within, rather than complaining about the bad attitudes of those who have been rejected for being what God made us.

Peace to you.

[NanceGreggs]

1. Hear, hear!

Very well put, yardwork.

:kick: and REC'D!

[yardwork]

5. Thank you.

[Bicoastal]

2. And to anyone NOT feeling offended....

...you're ugly.

Now you're one of us! :hi:

[yardwork]

3. LOL! It's a big tent around here.

[XemaSab]

4. Last week the blacks and Hispanics were being attacked

I can bullshit on blaming ANY group of people (other than the California Democratic Party) for this.

[yardwork]

7. You can all bullshit all you like and you can call it blaming or anything you like

but people are sick and tired of religious organizations using their tax-exempt status and significant power and money to strip other people of their rights.

Blaming the California Democratic Party because other powerful organizations rammed through bigoted constitutional amendments is pointless. Which rights would you like to give up today? If you lose them, shall we blame the California Democratic Party for not doing a good enough job of protecting you?

[patrice]

12. Agreed.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[denem]

14. http://mormonsformarriage.com- There are Mormons for marriage equality

A beautiful site. I imagine being condemned as a group is even nicer than having one's individuality denied by the blanket 'LGBT' community. How far is 'you Mormons' different from 'you gays'

[yardwork]

15. You obviously did not read my OP. I'll cut and paste the pertinent section for you again.

From my OP:

I don't agree with broad-brush condemnations of any group of people. People are individuals. It's obviously unfair and incorrect to say that all members of your group are homophobic. However, based on your organization's actions, it is clear that its leadership is homophobic.

[denem]

24. I was AGREEING with you -by way of illustration.

Sorry if I was not clear enough.

[yardwork]

33. Sorry! Thank you.

[nichomachus]

18. It's importatnt to distinguish between

"you Mormons" and "The Mormon Church." Some individual Mormons are very nice people. The church is scum. They need to resolve that -- not me.

[denem]

23. (deleted)

[intheflow]

20. Equal opportunity for Catholics too: http://www.dignityusa.org/

An organization of GLBT Catholics. :)

[yardwork]

29. That's wonderful! I'll share that with my Catholic partner. Thank you.

[donco6]

25. There's blaming, and there's accountability.

Holding church leaders and donors accountable is a-ok in my book.

[Parche]

6. If You are offended, then i am offended!!

:woohoo: :hi:

[yardwork]

9. We'll all be offended when we go!

[always_saturday]

8. A lot of religious people get off on feeling persecuted.

[yardwork]

10. I notice that, and as a member of a religious minority as well as a queer

I laugh at the absurdity of their complaints.

[always_saturday]

11. You know, I expect it of fundies. But I expect anyone who voted for Obama to get

that countless people who have been discriminated against have a legitimate beef against most if not all organized religions.

And if they don't get that, then I don't give a damn if they're offended that I think their religion is toxic.

And I was raised as a heavy duty Catholic myself.

[patrice]

17. The problem is "organized".

There's nothing inherently discriminatory about trying to live according to identifiable moral principles. It's the need to be propped up by others that warps that effort.

It is as Alan Watts said once that the purpose of any REAL church would be to make itself obsolete.

Om namah Shivayah!

[LittleClarkie]

28. Might I ask what religious minority you belong to?

Just curious. Thanks.

[yardwork]

30. I'm pagan. It's on my bio here. I'm actually a Christo-pagan.

I believe in and try to follow the teachings of Jesus, but I left my Christian church because they treat gay people as second-class citizens, so now I'm a pagan.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

47. Please cite the threads or posts you claim "attack blacks in general".

Thanks.

[QC]

48. I keep hearing about those threads, and Ihave asked for links to them

more than once, but no one ever comes through.

I'm starting to think they have assumed urban legend status here.

[yardwork]

50. Self-delete now that the offending post has been removed.

[QC]

52. It's kinda like how everyone knows someone who knows someone

who was seduced by a beautiful woman only to awaken in a bathtub full of ice with one of his kidneys missing.

I am beginning to believe that we are up against something similar regarding the viciously racist Prop. 8 threads.

[yardwork]

56. Considering how well the Proposition 8 effort was funded and promoted,

I'd say that it's a given that the effort continues online.

[yardwork]

49. Self-delete as the offensive post has been removed.

Thank you mods!

[QC]

51. Oh come now! Some of his best friends are gay!

{wink wink}

[yardwork]

57. Thanks be to the mods for removing the offensive post.

[nichomachus]

16. I have no problem disrespecting any organization that

officially tries to take my rights away.

I know there are people in these groups who don't believe in these things, but they are the official positions of the organization -- and I will continue to speak out against them.

If anyone's feelings are hurt, you need to take your religious leaders to task -- not me. They're the ones who set you up.

When I realized the Catholic Church was doing things I found repulsive -- I walked. I didn't want to belong to an organization that was, in my eyes, creating social injustice as official policy.

[RetroLounge]

19. K&R

:applause:

RL

[jesus_of_suburbia]

21. I'm not sorry to anyone who voted for or supports Proposition 8. I hope they are offended.

[LittleClarkie]

27. But those of us who don't and didn't would like to not be lumped in

with those who did. That is all.

The OP is a bit odd. He talks about individuals and then he talks about an organization as if there is only one. There isn't. Unless he's only talking to the groups who supported Prop 8. But it doesn't quite read like that.

But I don't think the OP was saying that anyone who supported Prop 8 shouldn't be offended. Quite the opposite.

[yardwork]

31. I'm a woman. It says so right on the box. And you misunderstood my OP, I think.

[LittleClarkie]

35. I'm thinking I did too.... You came in a box?

What are you, a barbie?

;)

[yardwork]

38. It's a quote from Toy Story.

But yeah, I'm Barbie! That's the ticket! LOL!

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[LittleClarkie]

26. My "organization" and my "group" is the ELCA Lutherans

There is no one religious "organization" nor one leadership. We're not the mob.

[yardwork]

32. I haven't heard that the ELCA Lutherans were involved in the effort to deny gay rights.

If you don't belong to a group that targeted gays, then this thread is not about you.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Gotcha

Forgive me. I worked 60 hours this week. I'm alittle punchy.

[yardwork]

37. Understandable. I was not offended by your posts at all.

[TexasObserver]

34. I agree with the gist of your comments, but you're really too kind.

If a person belongs to an organization which actively suppresses the rights of others, they ARE supporting such actions.

Back in the day when there was open discrimination against blacks, white people had to decide whether they would belong to racist organizations. Clubs and churches often had prohibitions against black members. People of conscience had to decide if they would be silent or get out of the clubs and churches.

Making excuses for an abusive religion is no better than making excuses for an abusive spouse.

[IndianaGreen]

39. Boycott Utah

and all businesses that gave money to Prop 8.

[yardwork]

46. It's not just Proposition 8. Anti-gay measure passed in AR, AZ, and CA, too.

Previous measures passed in many other states. It's not just California where this is happening, and it's not just the Mormon Church. The Catholic Church, some Baptist organizations, and many non-denominational fundamentalist churches have been behind this effort to codify anti-gay laws throughout the country.

[IndianaGreen]

53. We defeated a similar measure in Indiana this year

and the same coalition of homophobes was at work here that it was in California: Mormon Church, Black pastors, Catholic hierarchy, white evangelicals.

[yardwork]

58. I'm so glad to hear that! I didn't know that. Indiana really came through this year!

When Indiana went for Obama on election night I burst into tears. I am so proud of you! Then Ohio went blue and I cried again - I grew up in Ohio.

It's a beautiful new day dawning.

[IndianaGreen]

60. We have been well organized for four years

There was a lot of face-to-face meetings with legislators, and there was a coalition of progressives and moderates (including religious leaders) that came out in opposition to changing our constitution to ban marriage equality.

We still haven't been able to achieve marriage rights in Indiana, but defeating the constitutional amendment was a great first step in bringing about equality for all LGBTs.

PS: I will also point out that our Republican governor Mitch Daniels, who is not a social conservative, tried four years ago to dissuade the GOP legislatures from pursuing their constitutional proposals. He didn't lift a finger to help them!

[yardwork]

62. That's such good news. Thank you!

[Danger Mouse]

41. Well, I am a religious person, and not much has offended me, really.

I mean, I've seen stuff on DU before that has offended me, but in this case, I totally understand people's anger. I'm angry, too. I'm sick of people using religion in this way, and religion using people this way.
I do my part. As a Sunday School teacher, I do my best to make sure the students are taught about love, redemption, kindness, and understanding, rather than judgment, condemnation, moral 'superiority' and proselytizing.
I don't think religion causes the hate, I think it's just the justification people use for it.

[yardwork]

44. I agree with you. Thank you for being salt and light.

[madmadmad]

42. double what texasobserver said- but with cuss words

i do not care if i offend- you are either with us or against us. and if you are with them (intolerant religious fundamentalists), then you are against us and you can go to hell.

oxoxo-

god's little abomination

[terrya]

43. Thank you. No one is wanting to strip religious people of THEIR rights.

I keep hearing "religious freedom" in context of marriage equality...as if the FBI is going to swoop into every church in the country and force churches to perform same-sex marriage. That's utter nonsense. Churches can continue their bigotry if they wish.

It IS the hierarchies of the churches that are pushing bigotry. I have nothing against Catholics in general. But man, do I have a problem with your Pope. As well as the highest levels of the Vatican who continue to regularly promote homophobia and bigotry.

[yardwork]

45. Something like 18,000 gay couples were married in California earlier this year

and not one of them - not one - forced any church to sanctify their marriage.

In fact, it's quite easy to find churches or spiritual leaders who will sanctify gay marriages or gay unions - it varies by church or religious organization. That's not the problem.

The problem is with the government outlawing marriage and civil unions and adoption and other rights for gay people. This is a purely secular problem and the churches are using lies and deliberate misrepresentation to trick people into voting against gay rights.

[mmonk]

54. I believe you posted something like this to my post

concerning not all priests are pedophiles. I'm not offended and I didn't get to reply to your post in that thread. I gave a simple statement in relation to people giving a generalization and a sort of libel against persons who weren't pedophiles including my cousin that was a priest. There are many people working on the issue of rights and justice within the Catholic church in opposition to discrimination expressed by the bishops. It's quite hard work but worth it.

[yardwork]

59. Yes, I know and I agree with you. Many, many Catholics work hard for justice.

I know a former Maryknoll nun who was in Honduras and other parts of Central America. I'm sure that you know what that means.

It's not right to libel people on the basis of their religion, ethnicity, gender, or any other attribute. On the other hand, we must defend human rights from large, powerful organizations and institutions that target minorities. We can't ignore a huge problem just to protect the feelings of people involved.

Thank you for understanding and thank you for your work within your Church!

[mmonk]

61. Let's hope for justice for all one day.

Things such as prop 8 deny the concept of inalienable rights.

[marlakay]

55. I feel like who the hell are we to tell people

what they do with their lives, who they can fuck or not and who they can marry...

Or like Jesus said let those that have no sin cast the first stone.

(and I am NOT religious)

[gmoney]

63. Religions have run roughshod over the rights of people for centuries.

...why would things change now?