Does Hillary Still Think Talking With Enemies is "Naive" and "Reckless?"

[Truth2Tell]

Because that's still Obama's plan isn't it?

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

1. Now that is flamebait

That is clearly primary territory which does not need to be rehashed.

If you oppose Hillary based on something concrete in her record, or Bills, fine. But don't just drag up campaign arrows for the sake of stirring up shit.

[Truth2Tell]

2. So nothing she said during the primary is "operative" anymore?

That was just a little friendly campaign hyperbole? She didn't really mean it? We can assume she has changed her position and now supports Obama's foreign policy outlook?

Is this what you are saying? :shrug:

[sandnsea]

3. That's exactly what I'm saying

The primary is over. We can assume she did what every good lawyer does, find the weaknesses in the opponents case and exploit them. That's what she did.

Now we're running the country. No more time for rhetorical games.

[Truth2Tell]

7. So she thinks that his plan to talk to our enemies is

"a weakness in his case?"

[sandnsea]

9. He's the President

The SoS will do whatever the hell he tells him/her to do. Again, if you want to oppose Hillary, do it on her actual record, not campaign rantings.

[mwei924]

10. But if you just let people have a pass on what they say during the campaign..

..then what about John McCain? You could say he was just "campaigning" when he flipped on a bunch of stuff.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moriah]

65. I disagree with you here.

I was a Clinton supporter in the primaries.

I do think her statements about how she would handle diplomacy are things that Barack will need to consider, even though if he offers her the job, I believe that yes she will do what the President wants her to do.

But it's up to Barack to make the decision. I would prefer Bill Richardson as Secretary of State, personally. I think that he has more experience, and his ethnicity would be a great advantage in trying to negotiate with South American governments -- Venezuela, for example, is not a country we can afford to anger if we need their oil, something Bush was never able to understand.

I think Hillary would do a good job as well, and I believe that if she is offered the job she will do what she is asked to do even if she may disagree -- but the decision is Barack's.

[Truth2Tell]

72. Thanks for the thoughtful response! nt

[Truth2Tell]

16. Her "actual record" actually fits very closely

with those statements.

[Zhade]

35. Oh, so you finally admit clinton was lying during the primaries?

About things like snipers and "opposing" NAFTA?

FINALLY.

[MadBadger]

4. No, I think it should be brought up

They had a fundamental disagreement on that issue, and that potentially will be a major part of Obama's foreign policy. Her stated strong disagreement in that regard is noteworthy.

[srhuddle]

5. Especially considering the position she's up for.

I'm with you 100%. Just because her opinion was stated (clearly, and over and over again I might add) during the primaries doesn't make it magically irrelevant.

[sandnsea]

6. Oh bullshit, the primary is over

Hillary does not think diplomacy is naive or reckless so what's the point in going down this road.

Her views on the world's oil, Afghanistan and the 90s oil deals, Russia, missile defense, trade. Those are legitimate reasons to oppose her. But not stupid shit said during a campaign.

[MadBadger]

11. Until she says something to the contrary, all we have is her words during the campaign

How else should we judge her on this issue?

[PBS Poll-435]

13. History

NT!

[BlooInBloo]

18. If you people would just ignore everything Clinton has said, then she looks pretty damn good....

I totally agree with you on that.

[PBS Poll-435]

19. "You People"? Really?

NT!

[BlooInBloo]

23. I'm just not sure what's wrong with that noun phrase.

[PBS Poll-435]

24. Context? Implementation?

If I need further explanation, I like the economic success of the Bill Clinton years and I look forward to the promise of the Hillary Clinton years.

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

27. (shrug) Whatever. Let me know when she's President.

:rofl:

[PBS Poll-435]

32. A smart and proficient woman doesn't need to be President to leave her mark

If asked, Hillary Clinton will be an excellent Secretary of State.

[BlooInBloo]

36. But she does need to be President in order to call them the "Hilary Clinton years". lol!

[PBS Poll-435]

30. ...

Wrong place

[Truth2Tell]

20. Apparently she was just goofing around in "campaign mode."

I mean, who would take any of that seriously? We are such rubes.

[srhuddle]

22. That's scarier than anything.

"Nah, nah, everything she ran on was just primary stuff. Ignore everything recent and look to the past, campaigns are all lies anyway."

Eek.

[PBS Poll-435]

12. Wow

:thumbsup:

[Hieronymus]

31. Bull shit .. did she mean it or not?

[tekisui]

63. If she is being consider for the top DIPLOMATIC job

and has different beliefs on diplomacy that the President-Elect, we need to know.


Not flame-bait or Primary re-hash.

[salguine]

66. It's a perfectly legitimate question, if she has thoughts of

becoming the country's TOP DIPLOMAT, for God's sake.

[Life Long Dem]

75. Actually this whole rumor is nothing but flamebait.

[Trajan]

8. Yes she does

Isnt she awful ?

And what about the many Democrats who supported her ? ...

COMPLETE ASSHOLES !

And ? ... What about the 'special' candidate who supports her inclusion into his cabinet ?

What do you think he was thinking ? ..

I would like to hear your take on how he could be so wrong about her ....

Is this another 'McCain picks Palin' moment ? ....

If he made this absolutely crazy decision ... Can he be trusted to make better decisions in the future ?

Oooooo ... Do tell .... DO tell ....

:evilgrin:

[Truth2Tell]

14. supports her inclusion into his cabinet

I don't see anyone in the cabinet yet.

[Trajan]

15. Well ... He has had a few days to ponder the stories ....

And to develop a stern narrative, like yours, to declare how this awful person can NEVER EVER be a part of his administration ....

Do you know of any instance where he has said such a thing ?

Even a peep ? ...

Wow .... How could he be so wrong: Please explain ....

[Truth2Tell]

17. He's actually not commenting at all on potential appointments.

Or haven't you heard?

[Trajan]

21. Well ... You would think, given her absolute awfulness, as you insinuate ...

That he would immediately stand up and rapidly declare how wrong these stories are .....

Just to make sure the shit-stirrers didnt have to pull out their stir sticks and start looking for shit pots ......

Wow .... It is as if he doesnt care about how you feel about this .... He doesnt care if you think she may become the SoS in his administration .....

How does that make you feel ? .... Is he wrong ?

[srhuddle]

25. But people are entitled to their opinions.

It doesn't matter that Barack isn't reading these posts on DU, we're just discussing our take on things. If you disagree, fine, but don't paint it like we're too naive to see that outsiders' analyses don't actually matter to the transition team.

[Trajan]

29. ?

??????

[Truth2Tell]

26. What do you mean "is he wrong?"

He hasn't said anything. :crazy:

[Trajan]

28. Wow ...He has allowed you to prance about forums ....

Declaring her to be in line for a position in his administration ... How did that happen ?

Is somebody lying to you ? ..... Who ?

Why isnt he out there defending the truth against this travesty ?

Can you imagine ? ... a woman like THAT, saying those things, and then being on HIS team ... Making HIM do what she wants to do, and ONLY what she wants to do ?

I just want to know where honor is .... Where is honor in letting this awful story enrage you ???

Do you respect the opinions of President Elect Obama ? .... Or do you only respect your own hatreds ?

When he calls her name as SOS : Will you leave his side and openly declare against him ?

Will you call him what he deserves to be called ? .... Here in DU ?

Let me know .... Cause I want to see that ....

Signed,
TIRED Democrat who is sick of the dividers in our midst ....

[srhuddle]

33. There is a huge difference in not liking a particular choice

and not supporting the candidate. Of course I will support his decision if, God forbid, he does pick Hillary for SoS, but there will always be things I disagree with. His stance during the campaign on marriage equality for one. You're making these blanket statements, and I have to reiterate from the early post that confused you, it's not wrong to voice conflicting opinions. It doesn't mean we don't support our next president. Yeesh. Enough with the circular firing squad.

[Truth2Tell]

39. Who said this story "enrages" me?

Delusional much?

I just asked a simple question. During the campaign Hillary Clinton espoused a very different foreign policy outlook than Obama. And she mocked Obama's outlook. It seems reasonable enough to wonder, given the possibility that she could be chosen SoS, if she still holds those same views. I would imagine that foreign heads of state would be curious about that as well.

[mrbarber]

83. So disagreeing with one point is being a "divider" now?

Remind me never to accept any kool-aid from you.

[Trajan]

99. No ... being a divider is being a divider ...

And: I am offering you nothing ...

By insinuating that Ms Clinton will carry over her campaign rhetoric as a department head of an Obama administration, and force her own worldview on foreign policy against the wishes of President Obama, the OP is stoking the flames of the fierce primary battles that bloodied and bruised a good many DUers. and made DU a battlefield ...

Well ... The Primaries are OVER .....

Yet ... Some people cannot let go, and want the fight to go on ... and on and on and on ...

Fuck that ... We need unity ... not gratuitous ego ...

ANY SoS that Obama selects will wear his stamp of approval ... so this is a fallacious appeal based on ignorance, and a strawman to boot ....

There's your koolaid ... Drink up ...

[Indi Guy]

34. Stop stoking the fires of division. You're acting like Rove...

:eyes:

[Truth2Tell]

38. Stop acting like a mindless sheep. nt

[Clintonista2]

37. She never claimed it was

She said meeting without precondition with enemies is naive and reckless. Obama agrees, and I should hope that you do too.

[Truth2Tell]

40. No, I don't. But each to their DLC own.

And actually, Hillary referred directly to Obama's positions as "reckless" and "naive." She used his name in the same sentence as those words. So they did not actually "agree" at that time. Do you really need the links?

[Clintonista2]

41. That's because Obama never took a firm position on this until much later

In the original debate, Obama answered "yes" when asked if he would meet without precondition. He later revised this position, and rightfully so.

But alas, rehashing the primaries = no thanks.

[Truth2Tell]

42. I guess he forgot to change his Web site then...

http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/foreign_policy/">From BarackObama.com on Foreign Policy:

Barack Obama will pursue tough, direct diplomacy without preconditions to end the threat from Iran:

Obama and Biden will present the Iranian regime with a clear choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, they would offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, Obama and Biden will step up our economic pressure and political isolation.

But nice try.

[Clintonista2]

44. He's a politician

Which is why he stated that he won't meet without "preparations" (i.e low level meetings FIRST, which was EXACTLY what Clinton proposed).

In other words, with preconditions.

[Truth2Tell]

49. ...

:crazy:

[Clintonista2]

55. A little too confusing?

Don't worry, Kucinich doesn't understand foreign policy either.

[BlooInBloo]

45. pwned.

[Clintonista2]

46. What does that word even mean?

From Obama's website:

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/05/29/obamas_consistent_position_on.php

REALITY: Obama has consistently said he is willing to meet, without preconditions but with preparation, the leaders of Iran. This could include, but is not limited to, Ahmadinejad. Ahmadinejad is not the most powerful person in Iran, and his status is uncertain as there will be Presidential elections in Iran in 2009.

In other words, preparation is a precondition that must be met in order to have meetings. This is exactly what Clinton proposed, and I'm glad Obama finally joined her on this.

[mwei924]

47. Preparation means planning out the goals of the meeting beforehand...

..and having lower level officials pave the way.

Preconditions are like ultimatums. "I'll only meet with you if you do _______"

[BlooInBloo]

50. The poster knows that. She/he is just trying to save face in whatever pathetic manner she/he can.

[Clintonista2]

51. So "I'll only meet you if you first meet with..." is not a precondition?

Stop playing the semantics game.

[BlooInBloo]

48. Thank gawd you can edit posts, eh? BWAHAHAHAA!!!!

[Clintonista2]

52. Huh?

I edited it to italicize the quote. Would you like to respond, or is this whole topic out of your league (as it so appears)?

[Truth2Tell]

53. Sometimes it's best

to just stop digging.

[Clintonista2]

54. Oh god, I forgot how wonderful it is to have reasoned debate with some people

Let me know when you're able to argue on my level.

[Truth2Tell]

78. And let me know when you learn the difference

between "preparation" and "preconditions."

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

89. Your level.

:rofl:

[paulk]

88. these aren't "preconditions"?

"Obama and Biden will present the Iranian regime with a clear choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, they would offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, Obama and Biden will step up our economic pressure and political isolation."

[Truth2Tell]

91. They are positions.

They don't intend to insist that Iran agree to them IN ADVANCE of meeting and discussing the issue. That's what "PREconditions" means.

[dascientist]

97. he said without precondition BUT WITH PREPARATION

he is against meeting them WITHOUT PREPARATION!

[TexasObserver]

56. Have you noticed THAT campaign has been over for months?

Candidates paint themselves into positions during a campaign that even THEY know are absurdly concrete. Once it is over, they return to sanity land, where things are shades of gray, not black and white.

Hillary will do Obama's bidding as his SoS.

You act as if she's incapable of understanding the difference between being the president and being the person appointed by the president to help the president run the country. He's showing he's prepared to hand over to her 95% of the worldwide job of interfacing with other countries. Why?

Because she's up to the job!

You do agree that Obama is smarter than you, more informed than you, and has better judgment than you, don't you?

[Clintonista2]

57. pwned

[Mushroom]

58. You post about Hillary's

campaign rhetoric, but not McCain's? You caught pukeitis and I know of only one cure...
:spank:

[Truth2Tell]

73. I don't think McCain should be SoS either. nt

[quickesst]

59. Curious...

....that Obama has been backtracking on a few issues his self-percieved "base" is not happy with, but HRC critics(code for haters) focus on a talking point from a primary that has been decided for many months now. It's to the point that whenever HRC scores a point, the tears shed by her "critics" is like sweet nectar. Not as satisfying as neocon tears being shed by the gallons since being smacked down by the "Obama Hamma", but not far behind. Personally, I side with Obama when it comes to HRC, rather than with likes of Christopher Hitchens, who hates the Clintons too. Go figure. Thanks.
quickesst

[JTFrog]

70. Damnit, who left the PUMA cage open again? n/t

[davidpdx]

60. Well this is a good question

and I'm sure this thread will be trashed as per the usual "Hillary hating" or "Hillary bashing" line.

If she does truly believe it is reckless (which I honestly wouldn't see why she would say that and not believe it) then it would be better if she weren't SOS. For the most part, their policies are pretty close to each other, but she did describe his stance in the way the OP framed it during the primary. I also would be worried how much interference her husband would have in negotiating with countries given his influence as a former president.

Obama made a very good point in regards to the G20 summit in terms of his deference to Bush. There is only one president at a time.

[GalleryGod]

61. Moot: She'll take her orders from the CINC.

Just like Powell did. Snap a salute.Pivot. Leave Oval office.
Don't like that: Submit resignation: Cyrus Vance still holds the record for shortest-term.

[ecstatic]

71. I really hope so.... nt

[rvablue]

74. You "really hope so"...your hope has nothing to do with it...might want to read a copy

of the Constitution.

If Hillary were to be appointed SoS and went of the reservation and starting doing what she liked without the consent of the President.....it would be considered an act of treason.

[Vattel]

62. Try again.

As everyone knows, she didn't say that "talking with enemies is 'naive' and 'reckless.'"

[tekisui]

64. She said tlaking to enemies without pre-conditions was naive and

reckless.

[Jennicut]

67. Um, its up to Barack to set the "conditions" If Hillary does not follow his ideas she

can go.

[Mass]

68. Stop bashing Obama.

Why are you already withdrawing your support to Obama before he has done anything. It is clearly too early to be disappointed. He is so smart, he cannot make an error.

[Truth2Tell]

76. So now asking a question about a potential

appointment which hasn't even been made is equivalent to "withdrawing" my support for Obama?

Really, get a grip.

[Evergreen Emerald]

69. Your post is a lie. That is not what she said

Your lies and distortions are akin to the Vince Foster right-wing crap. She did not say that.

[Truth2Tell]

77. It's been established that she said

talking to enemies without precondition was naive and reckless. And it's been established that Obama disagrees. How that relates to Vince Foster is beyond me.

[LanternWaste]

79. Wouldn't Sen. Clinton be the one to ask...?

Wouldn't Sen. Clinton be the one to ask? And, if she is indeed appointed SoS, then I imagine PE Obama would be the one to ask also... :shrug:

[Truth2Tell]

81. I get very little face time with either of them.

So I'm stuck asking DU. :)

[LanternWaste]

87. I think the best we'd come up with

I think the best we'd come up with is mere prognostication based on internalized biases illustrating either our like or dislike of the good Senator... :)

However, I imagine that should PE Obama appoint the good Senator as SoS, she would of course either suppress or even outright change any perceived positions she may have held during the primaries, as would we all to better accommodate the platform and the agenda of PE Obama. :shrug:

[Truth2Tell]

90. One would hope so. Still a legit question, IMO.

:hi:

[Deep13]

80. Obama misspoke. It was never his plan.

HC responded to what Obama said, not what he meant. I'm not blaming her for that, but it is what happened.

[Truth2Tell]

82. Wrong. It is still his plan.

See post #42. I know the Clinton Brigade wishes that reality conformed to their dreams, but alas...

[Deep13]

84. HC's remark was directed at Obama's debate statement that...

...he would personally meet with the Iranian president (I can't spell his name) without preconditions. Obama later backed away from that comment. The campaign website does not say he personally will meet with the Iranian president.

Also, in response to your remark about the alleged Clinton Brigade and a loose grip on reality: fuck you.

[Truth2Tell]

85. Obama did not "back away" from that comment. He elaborated on it. nt

[noiretextatique]

86. perhaps you should follow obama's lead on this issue

clinton is a contender for SOS because obama chose her. i assume that means he is not concerned about her campaign rhetoric.

[Truth2Tell]

92. We don't know if "Obama chose her."

That is only a rumor.

And he may well be concerned about her campaign rhetoric. You really have no way of knowing. I expect that if he were concerned he would deal with it privately. However, those of us who are not the PE are entitled to express our concerns publicly without the constraints of his office.

And I will "follow Obama's lead" when I agree with him, and publicly oppose his positions when I disagree. Such is our responsibility in a democracy. Blind obedience to any leader is un-American and creepy, IMO.

[noiretextatique]

94. obama doesn't seem to be a petty person

he seems to be realist. he knows fully well what happens during a campaign and he doesn't seem bitter about any of it...and why should he be? he won.
clinton campaigned for him after the primaries, and they seem to have genuine affection and respect for each other. i will give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since this only a rumor.

[AtomicKitten]

93. #1: Denial that she said it (she did); #2: Ah shucks, it's just campaign talk.

Oy.

[SeaLyons]

95. Goddamn.,....the Hillary hate is pathetic....

really sick of all the Hillary hate on this board. As if all of you know more than anyone else. If Obama selects her as his SOS....maybe, just maybe, he knows what the hell he's doing. Give it a damn rest.

[Truth2Tell]

98. And some of us are really sick of Hillary.

So I guess we're even.

[SeaLyons]

100. no, I think some of you are addicted to

trashing Hillary. You're not sick of her.....what the hell would you talk about without her?

[TheKentuckian]

96. I don't know what she still thinks or even what she truly thought at the time

but if she wants the job she'll have to eat her words and do what she is directed to do.

[happychatter]

101. I think this post is beautiful

that is all