Ok, I'm just gonna ask. Why do you hate Bill/Hillary Clinton?

[Skip Intro]

I really don't get it. I never have. It seems irrational to me. He was a hero of the party for so long. I took pride in his family's ability to withstand the most vile and incessant attacks on a public figure I have ever seen. I took pride that he presided over relative peace and prosperity. I took pride that he left with talk about what to do with surpluses rather than how much a hard-hit populace must sacrifice even more to bail out the big corps who have screwed the little guy as sport.

He took out an incumbent repuke, and while many may not have agreed with everything he did, he left with huge approval ratings. And as a fork in the eye of the repuke slime machine, Hillary ran a great campaign and became a US Senator.

What is the source of the deep-seated hatred toward these one time and current stars of our party? Where does it come from? Please, I'm not trying to rehash anything, I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I ask everyone responding to this to be respectful of others responding to this thread. I'm simply trying to understand something I have witnessed here for months, that I've never really understood.

What is with the hate for the Clintons?

[liberalmuse]

1. I love them.

Flame me.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. Bill Clinton was the worst Democratic President from 1980-2008

[JuniperLea]

6. haha...

Is that like me telling my dad that he's my favorite dad ever?

[secondwind]

100. you need to look at his record, pal........take a look here:

http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/accomp.htm

[Donald Ian Rankin]

101. So which one do you think was worse?

N.T.

[lester94111]

116. Do your damn homework before you start yakking about

Something you don't know about.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

120. LOL. Try this method: read > think > post (He was also the best Dem president 1980-2008)

[closeupready]

3. Don't Ask Don't Tell, Defense of Marriage Act, NAFTA,

(give me some time here) but as a disclaimer, I actually don't HATE them, I just don't like them and don't trust them.

[ddeclue]

9. agreed.

Finally why the hell must we have to play the same worn out record over and over again? Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton....there are 300 million people in this country SURELY there must be someone NOT named Bush or Clinton who can run it competently...

What's with the dynastic royal family nonsense? Why must we limit ourselves to these two royal families? What is this the War of the Roses?

Doug D.

[BzaDem]

23. Obama will be the next president. What is the problem with a Clinton in the administration?

You are assuming that just because her husband was president that Hillary shouldn't be allowed to work in the administration? Why?

[Orsino]

102. Wrong question, perhaps.

We should ask why Clinton, particularly, should be part of the Obama Administration. There ought not to be entitlement in this matter.

Obama recognizes, at the very least, her incredible popularity. He's building, as he warned us, a coalition as broadly-based as possible. I presume this means he's going to keep his Cabinet too damned busy to worry about the petty infighting that came before. Clinton as SoS would be working directly for him, Lieberman will toe the line to hold onto his chairmanships, and McCain will cooperate to find himself some relevance (and look mavericky).

That's a theory, anyway; none of these things has to work perfectly.

[ruggerson]

16. You realize

that DADT was a compromise forced on him, BECAUSE he pushed for gays to serve openly in the military. It was one of the very first things he did, and the media crucified him for it. And then Sam Nunn and Colin Powell et al forced DADT.

I completely agree with you about DOMA - he should have vetoed it and gone down fighting when it was overridden, but by then he was totally gunshy about anything to do with gay issues. So he acted like a coward and signed it in the middle of the night.

[AJH032]

17. Clinton was forced into "Don't Ask Don't Tell"

One of the first things President Clinton did when he became president was to issue an executive order allowing gay people to serve openly in the military. The Republicans in congress, of course, were outraged, and Clinton was forced into the compromise "don't as don't tell." I don't agree with everything President Clinton did, but to assign him 100% of the blame for this is completely foolish.

[BlooInBloo]

22. You have video footage of the gun being held to his head? Thanks!

[ruggerson]

32. Uh, had he not agreed to DADT they were going to write a complete ban into law

before he brought the issue to the forefront, it was merely in military code. He indicated he was going to issue an executive order, letting gays serve openly, which blew up into a huge controversy because of homophobes in both parties, who then forced his hand, because they could override any executive order with legislation creating a law.

[BlooInBloo]

33. And they naturally had a veto-proof majority, of course.

[ruggerson]

37. they not only had a veto proof majority

they had everyone but a small handful of senators and representatives. In addition to the media, the Joint Chiefs, the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

They had about as many votes as they had for DOMA, which passed four years later overwhelmingly:

House 342-67,
The Senate 85-14

To put it mildly, very few politicians had the guts to stand up for gay people back then.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/DOMA_2.htm

[BlooInBloo]

38. I'm not talking about DOMA.

[ruggerson]

43. A complete ban never came to a vote

but they had headcounts, so I'm using DOMA to illustrate the outsized majorities anti gay legislation had.

Which of course you know, you are just arguing now because you never admit error, it's one of your more charming traits.

[bridgit]

145. Posting from the relative comfort of their homes; most DUer's have no relationship with the kinds...

of pressures exerted on individuals in DC...and most of them would I think crumble like an almond cookie were they called to such national service such as it is

[Jennicut]

86. Yes he was. I remember it well. It was the only option he had left.

Clinton started out very liberal and lots of conservative Dems didn't like it. Anyone remember his stimulus plan? Well, it was knocked down by Rethugs and conservative Dems. I liked Obama better and was angry at Hillary at times but now I'm over it. What is done is done and revenge is about you not the other person. Time to drop it and move on.

[Doityourself]

60. I use to dislike Hillary..but my feelings have changed a great

deal..I like her, really do..but I have to tell you, Bill really has fallen off my like meter!

Just don't care for the man..and really, really don't trust him!

[Mojorabbit]

92. I don't care much for him either, never did

and I have no strong feelings one way or another about her. I would like new blood though. It is the same way I feel about having another Bush in the govt. There are a lot of good qualified people out there. I would prefer Richardson as SOS. I'd like Fitzgerald as AG. They would get the job done calmly and professionally and no possibility of overshadowing Obama's agenda. But it isn't my call and I am not going to obsess over it.
Edited for an attempt to correct grammar and unsucessful I would bet. Past my bedtime.

[TankLV]

79. Which proves you know NOTHING about Don't Ask Don't Tell...NOTHING...

[closeupready]

98. I know I put you on ignore when you were dancing on Anna Nicole Smith's grave

Not sure why I took you off. Gotta fix that.

[JuniperLea]

4. I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them both...

They bridged the gap between the old school and the new. If it hadn't been for them, we'd be stuck in a much more frustrating political scene right now.

[closeupready]

5. Oh, yeah: "and if all that is important to any of you here is my vote on the IWR, find someone else

to vote for."

[Marrah_G]

7. oh boy here we go.

:popcorn:

[rebel with a cause]

40. Pass me some.

I so enjoy the rehashing of this subject over and over and over and over.....:banghead:

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. I alerted when I saw the thread and said

this will not end well, just the title was inflammatory.

[Rockholm]

50. Are there people on DU who don't like Bill & Hillary?

Are you series?

[Ichingcarpenter]

54. You must not use the word like or dislike

Only Hate or Love is permitted. Plus you must not include Hillary not as a separate person
from Bill. Its the HilBill beast.

Flamebait thread

[Ichingcarpenter]

66. As Du's President I Officially Pardon the Clintons for all his pardons

even the Chinese Businessmen that paid to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom
and couldn't come back to the states. I mean all of the pardons
that outraged a nation, Clinton supporter and constitutional scholars.



Snip::::
Longtime Clinton supporters and Democratic leaders such as James Carville, Terry McAuliffe and Jimmy Carter all were critical toward the Clinton pardons, with Carter calling them "disgraceful.

Even the pardons he did right before the people voted for the 2000 election


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy

[Rockholm]

139. Pardon me?

Kidding. The Clinton bashing is just too much for me.

[saracat]

8. I had some problems with a few of Hillary's votes so she wasn't originally my primary fav

but I admire and respect both Clintons. Those that "hate" are just immature and don't remember the good that they have done.They also don't consider the good they continue to do.

[karynnj]

144. Does that mean that you have forgiven Kerry and Kennedy

for doing something that was their right to do?

[saracat]

151. Whats to forgive? I don't agree with them but I am not required to.

I never had a problem with Kennedy that I recall . I thought it was classless of Kerry to diss his runningmate. Whatever. He is still agood senator. We just disagree.

[Colobo]

10. I like him. I think he had potential to be much better, but he was very good.

[mucifer]

11. 3 strikes your out program. Many more non-violent drug offenders in prison mostly people of color.

Bill not Hillary did that.

[patrice]

30. Mandatory Minimums have decimated some levels of the Working Class. nt

[rvablue]

135. The 3 strikes and you're out laws are state laws enacted by state legislatures

and signed by governors.

And if you live in CA, I believe the 3 strikes law was passed by Proposition, meaning the majority of CA voters voted it in and that's what makes it so hard to get rid of.

[rvablue]

137. My prediction: Everyone who has a long list of the reasons why they didn't much care for Clinton

are going to have the same list for our new President in 8 years.

[Ichingcarpenter]

12. I'm not trying to rehash anything, I'm not trying to start a flame war

Wanna bet?

You started one with the way you phrased the title.

[mtnsnake]

13. A lot of the hatred here on DU towards the Clintons stems from jealousy

and there are other reasons, too, like well established trolls who have infested this place. Those particular posters hate the Clintons because they're Republicans, diguising themselves as otherwise.

Then there are some people who have legitimate concerns and differences with the Clintons, but those people don't seem to to froth at the mouth like so many of the other ones do.

I think Bill was one of the best presidents in modern times. Hillary is extremely capable, too.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. NOT JEALOUSY. IT'S THEIR POLICIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where do I begin??

Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Omnibus Crime Bill
Welfare Reform
NAFTA/CAFTA
Defense of Marriage Act
Telecommunications Reauthorization Act (deregulation of the media markets...why we're in the situation we're in right now)
Deregulation of mortgage markets (part of the reason why we're in the mess we're in now)
Support for Dumbya/Cheney and his illegal, criminal wars
Friendships with Pappy Bush and John McCain
The Democratic Leadership Council and their neocon, hyper-corporatist agenda
Hillary's support for IWR
Hillary's vote against Levin-Reed
Disregard for the National Intelligence Estimate
Vote on declaring the Iraqi Army a terrorist network, Kyl-LIEberman!
Hawkish stance on Iran

Both are polarizing, divisive figures...

I DO NOT HATE THE CLINTONS!!! I don't agree with their DLC/DINO stance on the issues.

To criticize the Clintons on their policies does not equal hatred.

[mtnsnake]

62. Yikes! You don't have to yell. I already said that some people have legitimate concerns

Honest, I said that in my post. :)

Good post, BTW, pointing out your differences with the Clintons instead of just bashing them over the heads like some people do.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

122. I'm just sick and tired of being called a hater just because I don't agree with and worship

the Clintons! I defend them when they are right. And Bill was a good president, overall, but I have philosophical differences with them with regards to their policies. As it turns out, I also have some issues with Barack Obama.

[TankLV]

80. Which proves you don't know what your spewing...especially Don't Ask Don't Tell...

you know SHIT...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

124. I do know SHIT. I understand that Clinton may have been pressured into pushing for DADT

however, he also enjoyed a majority in Congress. Why allow the DLC to push him in that direction? And what about my other philosophical concerns? What to you have to say about the other points I made?

[flashback]

85. Ah... in the interest of accuracy

"Vote on declaring the Iraqi Army a terrorist network, Kyl-LIEberman!"

---

That would be the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, not the Iraqi Army.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

123. A mistake of my typewriting. Not a mistake on the underlying issue.

[AlCzervik]

14. neither, i have never understood the out right love or hate for them, i know very few

people that feel neutral on them.

There were more than a few times i felt annoyed by Senator Clinton during the primary but never hate, same with Bill, he pissed me off a few times but i also understood what he was doing.

Howard Dean i loved and felt inspired by and i really like obama, he actually did make me feel some hope after i saw him in person, hope i thought was long gone and he returned it.

[ruggerson]

26. I feel pretty neutral about him

I think he was a fairly decent President, but I find him to be a bit of a phony.

I like her a lot more than I like him, because I think she's far more ideological than he.

And I laugh when people use the term "the Clintons" because it invariably means they have irrational beliefs about them.

[BlooInBloo]

15. I have a "thing" about race-baiting war-mongers. I understand that not everybody does...

But I do - it's just how I roll.

EDIT: It might be worth noting that before her race-baiting, I was a common defender of Clinton against the DU Clinton haters. I'm not proud of that time period of my life, but it's the truth.

[firedupdem]

18. I always thought highly of the Clintons until actually after they left office.

Once I really started paying attention to things the 3 strike law bothered me a wee bit. Hillary had been okay with me but her vote for the war was very wrong. During the primary season she seemed to run like McCain did....no platform just beat down Obama. I sensed that they felt entitled to the white house. All in all, if Obama wants her at SOS, I trust his decision. Bill let me down though.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. I don't hate the Clintons.

I don't much like them either though. I find the cult of personality surrounding them to be frankly creepy, especially when it more often than not seems totally divorced from any objective consideration of either Clinton's actual policies and achievements. I find Bill Clinton's history re the death penalty (does the name Ricky Ray Rector ring any bells?), the 'war on drugs' (hundreds of thousands of Americans incarcerated during his term in office for nonviolent offences), neoliberal free trade (five MILLION jobs gone in just the Southern textile industry, post-NAFTA), gay civil rights (running on his support of DOMA in 1996, even going so far as to run ads on evangelical radio)...well, let's just say that most of that I find rather distasteful, and I really have to question so-called progressives who don't have problems with any of it, or are willing to overlook the politics of triangulation of the Clinton era, of running to the right on most social and economic issues, just because he was a two-term President with a D after his name and a fair amount of personal charisma.

I have a better question for you: why the love for the Clintons?

[patrice]

34. nailed it.

:hi:

[Erin Elizabeth]

47. That's a great post. I, too, find the cult of personality creepy.

[OwnedByFerrets]

69. Thank you for a fabulous post.

[AtomicKitten]

83. Ditto on your excellent post.

[invictus]

121. Exactly!

nt

[ProSense]

20. Hate is the wrong word, but there is nothing irrational about

not wanting to relive Clinton's Presidency

[Democrafty]

24. Perfect list!

It's good to want to move on. Moving on is healthy.

[patrice]

21. It's not hatred. Neither one of them has ever convinced me that there's a

connection between us. I do not feel that they are genuine. Aside from the legislative issues mentioned up-thread, I think Bill's presidency was wasted for a blow-job. While the huge preponderance of responsibility for 9/11 belongs to Shrub, what happened did not occur in a vacuum. I'm very tired of all of this idol-worship and that goes for ANY of them.

P.S. BTw, How come Saudi Arabia thinks 20 minutes of Bill speaking is worth $250K over and over and over again? What, exactly, does his talking to them and their friends produce for them, or, alternatively, what DID it produce in the past?

[cyndensco]

25. It is the sense of entitlement that bothers me most.

Hillary was next in line to be president. That didn't happen so maybe she should be Senate Majority Leader, Gov. of NYS, a Supreme Court justice...

[BzaDem]

27. You are creating this sense of entitlement. It does not actually exist.

Hillary didn't expect to win because of her husband. She expected to win because she was very experienced, qualified, well-liked, and was way ahead in the polls.

She furthermore does not expect to be the next Senate Majority Leader, Gov of NYS, a Supreme Court justice, or anything else. If she becomes any one of these, she will work hard for it and not assume that she is entitled to it.

[expatriate]

90. What experience? Being First Lady for eight years?

Giving tea parties at the White House, being sent on high profile photo ops hither and yon, utterly failing at coming up with a health care plan that would be acceptable? Oh yes, and being Senator of New York for a while - a state she'd never lived in or had any real connection to, but one she could be fairly sure of winning. Claiming that she had no interest in running for President, that she wanted to "help" New York. Never wanted to run for President, oh no.

Let's get real about Hillary. Her "experience" is pretty nebulous. I am well acquainted with many people in state government in Arkansas who knew these people well, and she has been in competition with Bill ever since they met. She has an enormous desire to best him at everything. It is not a marriage made in heaven, never has been. As a matter of fact, they despise each other. She vetted his girlfriends, for God's sake and then played the little injured wifey with trembling lip and great dignity, standing by her man for all to see. Let's stop acting like these people are some kind of plaster cast saints.

She's a dinosaur. She doesn't have the sense to realise that in these times, when you lie about "dodging sniper fire" or "brokering peace in Northern Ireland", people are able to get to a computer and find out that you're a lying charlatan within seconds. They no longer have to drag off to the library, go through mountains of microfiche to find out that you're an outrageous liar who will say anything to make yourself sound great. What is worse, after the first such incident during her campaign, damn but if she didn't do it again. America does not need any more Presidents who don't learn, and who think that they can just lie and lie and lie without any repercussions. Those days are over, because the truth is out there, available to anyone who knows how to effectively search "da internets".

Hillary exhibits a sense of entitlement a mile high - and what do you want to bet in a few years Chelsea will be angling for public office too. After all, she had all that great experience of being ...the President's kid. Oh, and dodging sniper fire. Yeah, there was sniper fire somewhere, wasn't there? Oh, yes, - I misspoke.

Gimme a break. Hillary needs to be Senator and help New York some more and then goddamn retire. God knows she's retirement age and it ain't like she needs the money.

[elocs]

28. Is it possible to not agree with the Clintons without being accused of hating them?

Is it possible for someone to not favor Senator Clinton for SoS without being accused of hating her? With all others this is allowed, but evidently not with the Clintons. The requirement evidently is that you either love them or hate them, no in between.

[scarletwoman]

42. Please forgive me. I'm no doubt ruining it for lots of innocent DUers.

But the fact is, I DO "hate" the Clintons, by any reasonable definition of the term. Sorry.

sw

[elocs]

52. How exactly do you hurt them with your hate? Are you teaching them a lesson?

Hate is like knifing someone with the blade facing the stabber.

[scarletwoman]

61. Your questions are silly. I'm not looking to accomplish anything out of my antipathy for

the Clintons. I only wrote what I wrote out of my personal preference for being honest.

You were valiantly sticking up for Clinton critics, which I appreciate. However, I wanted to make it clear that I do not personally merit your good graces, lest anyone confuse shrill anti-Clintonites like me with decent folk.

sw

[elocs]

104. You are 100% wrong. I am not sticking up for Clinton critics.

I am neither in the love Clinton or hate Clinton camp. That is possible.

I am, however, pointing out that hate only hurts the hater and there is nothing silly about that. The world could use fewer people actively embracing hate.

Good luck with your hate though. I am sure it will make your life better and more fulfilling.

[scarletwoman]

143. Please don't waste a nanosecond of concern for the quality of my life.

I'm a lover not a hater. However, since the tone of this thread is largely dualistic, I figured I'd just play along and go all the way out to the edge of one of the poles of the polarity.

Generally I use words like "strongly dislike" or "despise" or "loathe" instead of the word "hate". But I figured what the hell, why dance around with semantics?

The fact is, I do not like the Clintons. I wish they would just go away and never darken the doorway of U.S. politics again. Which, according to most Clinton fans, makes me a Clinton "hater".

So I figured I'd just go ahead and give the Clinton fans what they apparently crave -- a clear and unequivocal declaration that I "hate" the Clintons. I was just trying to make them happy.

Because I'm all about loving and giving. :D

sw

[Sebastian Doyle]

29. I don't hate them, but they need to realize that they LOST the fucking primary

and that it's Obama's turn now. And that goes for the rest of the DLC as well.

[leftynyc]

126. What has happened in the two

weeks since the election that indicates they don't realize they lost the primary and that PE Obama has won the election? What has either of them done to warrant your antipathy?

[tigereye]

31. none from me

I didn't agree with some of his decisions about welfare reform, but basically i thought he and Hillary were cool. Most Dems love them.

:shrug:

[mwei924]

35. I like them just fine. But I also have some issues w/ them (mostly Bill).

The primary did end up lowering my opinion of them, but not by a lot.

[Double T]

36. The Clintons would be the BEST DAMN THING that ever happened to the State Department.

If the US wants to reestablish good relations with the rest of the world, no one will do a better job than the Clintons. Its time to get smart and put the bitterness and grudges behind.

[BlooInBloo]

39. Yah - I hear Clinton just OBLITERATES them in Iran, for example. I totally see what you mean.

EDIT: Of course it really doesn't matter either way about Iran, right? :rofl:

[Whisp]

91. 'The Clintons'... there you go, that is what bothers me...

Hillary won't be comfortable with being overridden by Obama and Bill will do his own thing regardless of what Hillary or Obama think.

It will be a mess.

[blm]

127. Clintons did SO WELL for world when he deep-sixed BCCI matters throughout 90s to protect Bush1

and his powerful cronies whose illegal financial operations were funding global terror networks, armsdealers, drugrunners, and moneylaunderers.

That worked out GREAT in the long run for our party, nation and the globe, didn't it?

[scarletwoman]

41. Normally I'd do an extensive and exhaustive list with links to citations in order to make my case.

But I really don't give a shit anymore about endeavoring to educate those who have such a shallow and feeble grasp of the political realities of the U.S. Imperium that they are surprised and perturbed to find that there are people on DU who despise the Clintons.

You are living in a fucking fantasy world where the United States is not the biggest motherfucking terrorist in the history of the world.

You are living in a fucking fantasy world where the U.S. political system is actually a democratic republic and not the plutocracy that anyone with any fucking common sense can see.

You are living in a fucking fantasy world where capitalism is the highest manifestation of human social interaction. Where profits trump human life when it comes to "American interests".

I despise the Clintons and ALL their ilk for their unquestioning support for the American Imperial Project. I particularly despise Bill Clinton for pardoning fucking Mark fucking Rich (how fucking ironic a name is THAT?), but NOT granting clemency to Leonard Peltier who was totally FRAMED by our fucking corrupt government.

Bill Clinton is NO fucking hero. He's just a charismatic fucking con man, and you're a fucking sucker for thinking he gives a fuck about people like YOU. And you're a fucking sucker for thinking that the Clintons are fucking "stars". Good grief. :puke:

[OwnedByFerrets]

70. Hard for a sane person to argue with that.

[jhrobbins]

71. Do you kiss anybody with that mouth?

[scarletwoman]

74. Don't worry. I won't kiss YOU.

:)

[jhrobbins]

75. Thanks - on so many levels.

[scarletwoman]

77. You're welcome -- on at least as many levels.

:)

[TankLV]

81. Which again proves you know NOTHING...

[scarletwoman]

99. Proved "again", eh? I'm flattered that you've been keeping track.

;)

[superduperfarleft]

115. Another good post. Thanks for writing that. n/t

[scarletwoman]

141. Funny, my post is sorta like the Clintons -- some people like it, some people hate it.

:D

[leftynyc]

128. What a piece of crap rant

And that's all the time I'm giving to you.

[scarletwoman]

140. "And that's all the time I'm giving to you." Aw, really, you shouldn't have.

I sincerely regret that I caused you to waste those moments of your life that it took to type your post.

:)

[Erin Elizabeth]

45. I'm not sure I would say I HATE them.

Before the primaries, I quite liked both of them. Got his autobiography prominently displayed on my main bookcase. Supported both of his administrations.

The primary put a really REALLY bad taste in my mouth over them. Really bad taste. And every time I think the bad taste is going away and I can get back to actually liking them again, instead of wishing they'd go away, some drama pops up and their names are everywhere again and people are acting as if they are royalty and simply MUST be given anything they fucking want.

And honestly, the people who act like neither of them can do any wrong and are just about perfect bug me just as much if not more than the Clintons themselves.

I've had to deal, in real life, with a woman who is around the bend nutters when it comes to Hillary and ended up voting for McCain. She is the one of the angriest people I've ever known and it's reached a point that her friends and family worry about her. It's got to be more than the election. She's just a ball of hate. It's like she was personally rejected by the world because Hillary isn't president now. The last time I spoke to her was when she called Obama a "n*gger." That was the last straw for me. I ended the friendship. I had no idea before that she was a racist.

[emilyg]

46. I love the Clintons.

[Medusa]

48. Hate is too strong of a word

I thank them for their service to this country, and I recognize their accomplishments but I think they represent our party's past, not our future.

[Arugula Latte]

49. I don't hate them, but, frankly, they both really made me sick during the primaries.

Two of us love our country, hardworking white people, Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, etc. etc.

[Alcibiades]

53. I don't hate them, but then there was the Lewinsky affair

It showed a shocking lack of judgment (much like Edwards' affair.) To think that such a thing will go unnoticed when you're in the national spotlight and the media is out to get you, just boggles the mind.

I also didn't like the way Bill Clinton hung that poor girl out to dry. When a married man has an affair with a woman 30 years his junior, he is the one who is morally culpable. The way he went on television and called her "that woman" was just despicable. It completely derailed his presidency. Clinton could have accomplished much more, had he not been sidetracked by the whole mess in Congress. Meanwhile, he lied to his Democratic supporters. One day, we were supposed to defend him and his denials. The next, after he found out she saved she dress with the matching pearl adornments, we were supposed to spew out the party line that this was a private matter, between a husband, his wife, and an attractive young woman. If the Clintons want to keep their marital arrangements private, they should retire somewhere quiet.

Bleeech. I don't want Bill Clinton and his many girlfriends anywhere near this administration.

[Arugula Latte]

56. Also, if he'd kept it zipped it would have been a lot harder for them to steal the election in 2000.

Lots of people lumped Gore in with Clinton's sleaziness and that made it close enough to steal.

[Danger Mouse]

55. I don't hate them. I just think a lot of what Clinton did as president wasn't cool.

[IsItJustMe]

57. DOMA, NAFTA, Welfare reform, blow jobs and cigars, the obliteration of Iran, just to name a few.

[happychatter]

58. bait... supposition being that opposition is rooted in irrationality

[political_Dem]

59. It's not about the hate. It's about the duplicitousness and the phoniness. That's all.

It's also about the two-sided nature both Clintons displayed:

Bill's friendship with Bush41
Bill's friendship with McCain
Hillary's friendship with McCain
Bill and Hillary's friendship with Scaife
Bill and Hillary's friendship with Murdoch
Hillary's profound love for FOX News.
How Hillary and Bill have used and treated the Black community.

The list goes on and on with the neo-cons.

Furthermore, their policies not only undermined the GLBTQ community; their policies did not help the poor of this country as well (case in point: the welfare to work debacle).

They're almost like Lieberman in which they play off both sides against the middle.

Plus, they are both members of the DLC branch of the Democrats. The Centrism has to stop. It gets no one anywhere, except to bend down and kiss the ring of the Republicans.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

63. I like them.

I think Bill did all he could with a rabid Republican congress. I was for Obama in the primaries, but Hillary certainly would have had my vote if she won. My personal beliefs are much further to the left than their's but that's ok.

[obiwan]

64. Because Hillary is a compulsive liar with poor judgement in picking campaign staff.

And she is a bully.

Do I need to say more or is that sufficient?

BTW I am a raging heterosexual and I love women. So sexuality has nothing to do with it.

I just hate indecisive lying bullies with poor judgement running for public office. We had to put up with that for the last 8 years. Enough!

[Beacool]

89. Rush, is that you?

:crazy:

[Jackeens]

65. I admire Hillary, I loved Bill for so much that he did...

...including his extraordinary contribution to the peace process in Ireland, but part of me will never, ever forgive him for Ricky Ray Rector. To this day it colours how I view him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector

I don't know what she might have been promised in return for her support (S.O.S.?), but I will forever doff my cap to Hillary for her contribution to Obama's campaign.

[Hieronymus]

67. Hillary's take no prisoners campaign turned me off of her and Bill both.

[OwnedByFerrets]

68. I dont hate either of them, but you completely whitewash all the

terrible decisions and policies he made during his tenure. He was no saint or savior. Unfortunately, I didnt realize that until he was out of office.

[Waiting For Everyman]

72. Global trade? 8 years of Bush? Almost screwing up this election too?

Repealing Glass Steagall and signing the Commodity Futures Modernization Act for Phil Gramm? Appointing Wendy Gramm to the CFTC? Colossal egos?

Is there need to go on? Let's just say, some major problems.

I don't hate them, but I don't like them. Don't trust them very far either. But I'll assume the best going forward. Anybody can learn from mistakes.

[Joe the Revelator]

73. I'll never forgive her for her tactics and prolonging the primary

We're lucky it turned out the way it did in spite of her.

[InvisibleTouch]

76. I don't get it either. I'm very fond of them both. n/t

[Dr Fate]

78. I like them just fine. It's Joe Freaking Lieberman who I cant stand. n/t

n/t

[apocalypsehow]

82. Dog-whistling about what happened to RFK "in June" is something not even McCain or Palin stooped to.

Sorry, that is simply not forgivable.

[Metric System]

84. I consider myself more of a Hillary supporter than a supporter of Bill.

[mkultra]

87. for me its just one thing

Hillary used wedge issue campaign techniques. In summary, she was a "fighter." meaning that she would be good against republicans because she fights like they do.

Well, i don't like snide inferences and snarky cracks from people expecting to be a leader.
And no, in case your going to ask, i dont feel that Obama came anywhere close to her in this regard.

But, on edit, let me not neglect to say that i still like her policy stance and i thought Bill was a great president. It was a shame that Obama and the Clintons where rivals in this cycle. To me, they where two greats that should never have had friction.

[political_Dem]

88. You can also tack on these things as well:

The Clintons' treatment of Joycelyn Elders and Lani Guinier. That too colored my perception of their duplicitousness.

[Raineyb]

147. No pun intended right?

LOL

Regards

[political_Dem]

152. Raineyb, when I read what I said again, it was a "face-palm" moment. :(

Sometimes when I post, I fire off my comments quickly. I don't realize what I've said until I've re-read it over later. :(

Let's just say that yes, I still feel that their treatment of Drs. Elders and Guinier was horrible. The Clintons threw both ladies under the bus.

Here are some articles on this issue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5145163">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5145163

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4D61E30F935A35755C0A965958260">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4D61E30F935A35755C0A965958260

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEFDE103DF937A25754C0A965958260">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEFDE103DF937A25754C0A965958260

Marian Edelman Wright also was treated rather badly by the Clintons as well:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/36367">http://www.newsweek.com/id/36367


Again, thanks for pointing the flaws of my initial remarks. Next time, I'll write a little slower. :D

[Raineyb]

153. No offense was taken.

I actually thought it was funny. But I do have a rather warped sense of humor.

I do remember the treatment of both women and I was not at all happy with it myself. To this day I have no idea why what Ms Guiner's writings were considered so outrageous. That notwithstanding, the unwillingness to stand up for her and the subsequent treatment of Dr. Elders certainly did not endear the Clintons to me.

Regards

[expatriate]

93. my family and I suffered enormously during the Clinton years.

People here talk about that eight years being "peace and prosperity", and my guess is that those posters were kids at the time. Everything tends to seem rosy in retrospect when all you had to worry about was picking boogers and riding your bike.

Clinton made a lot of policy that was damaging to the USA, some of which is directly responsible for the fiscal disaster we're in today. Among other things was his welfare reform, where he strapped the states with providing welfare. Now, you may think that you might never need welfare, that you're above all that, you're employable, you'll never need food stamps - but guess again. Some of you might be a lot closer to looking into the so-called safety net of programs, paltry as they are, because the financial situation in America is about to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Clinton made it impossible to receive welfare benefits for more than 18 months out of your entire lifetime. Think about it. What if you happen to be unemployed for longer than 18 months? What if some terrible disaster strikes you, and you are no longer able to work? Do you have any idea how long it takes to get Social Security Disability? Are you aware that very often, people have to hire legal assistance just to get the pathetic benefits of SSD? It can take years and years - and until then, how are you going to live, if you're disabled and unable to work? Welfare runs out in 18 months - then what?

You might think that you will never fall into poverty, that you'll always have a job somewhere that will allow you to meet your needs. I found out, during those peaceful (anyone remember Bosnia and Somalia, Bill's wars?) and prosperous Clinton years, just what it was like to be so desperate that I had to go dumpster diving for something to eat, because the Prez had reformed the Welfare system. His great "workfare" program meant that the job market was suddenly flooded with unqualified people who had to find something, making more and more people willing to accept America's pathetically low minimum wage. Clinton, more than any other President, is responsible for the rise of what is known as "the working poor".

By the way, do you know that he closed down Social Security offices for weeks on end as a stunt, to show people how nasty it would be without it, until it was proven that Social Security wasn't "broke" as Bill said it was? After a week, the public protest was so loud that they went ahead and allowed Social Security checks to be sent out, but no other services would be rendered to the taxpayers who pay for the Social Security system in the first place. So, if like me, you had your card destroyed in a house fire and needed another one to be able to get a job, and went to the Social Security office for a replacement - no service. Too bad. You don't get that job, because Reagan policies made it impossible to get a job without showing the card, just in case you were an illegal alien - and your welfare benefits are run out, even though you live in an area with twenty percent unemployment, and you can't get an extension on your unemployment benefits, because President Slick Willy says that we're having a great time of prosperity here in America ...
And you have a chronically ill child who needs insulin every day, to say nothing of something to eat, and there are no jobs and you don't have the money to move somewhere else, and you don't qualify for Medicaid because your welfare ran out ...

I wasn't lazy, unqualified or uneducated. I had a great work background, lots of experience, plenty of smarts. I had the misfortune to be stuck in an area that was very depressed, and had no resources to go elsewhere. I ended up babysitting for a dollar an hour, cleaning people's houses for a couple of bucks an hour, ironing, living without electricity because I couldn't pay the bills, living in my car - oh, and that dumpster diving. I had no medical insurance for years, and went through gall bladder failure and pancreatitis without any medical attention, because no hospital would let me in the door. Thank God I managed, by hook and by crook, to keep my kid in insulin and with enough food that he did pretty well, though the damage done to his system is evident today. Diabetics need careful balance, and I could not provide that, no matter how desperately I tried.

That was the Clinton years for myself and many others like me. This is why so many people do not care for the Clintons.

By the way, he built up an enormous budget surplus through cutting programs - but he didn't DO anything with it, like restore all the educational grants and programs that Reagan got rid of, or come up with alternative work for all the people disenfranchised when he decided to cut the military way down. He just piled it up and dragged it out in every speech and photo op, like the golden calf. Instead of using that resource to make America better, Clinton worshipped it, bragged about it and then handed it on to Shrub. We all know what Shrub did with it.

That's why I'm no fan of the Clintons. Bill was Republican lite, Hillary worked for Goldwater. Anyone thinking that they're Democrats is dreaming. I wish Obama would just leave them be, but understand the politicking that has to go on. I just hope he puts Hillary in some post where she can't do any damage.

[ContinentalOp]

96. Hey, I will not put up with any criticisms of Bill Clinton.

He was arguably the best Republican president we have had in decades!

[superduperfarleft]

114. Beautiful post. Thank you for writing that.

Many people suffered immensely during the Clinton years, particularly the poor, people of color, and people of the third world (which isn't much different from any American presidency, but I digress). It's so typical of the Privileged White Liberal to wax nostalgic for the wonders of the Clinton years where everyone had a pony that shit rainbows than to actually consider that just because they personally made out okay, doesn't mean everyone did.

"8 years of peace and prosperity..." - yeah, ask the millions of Iraqi children who starved to death under sanctions how much they enjoyed it, or the scores of young black men whose lives were destroyed by incarceration thanks to his Crime Bill.

Clinton wasn't as bad as Bush. That's about the only good thing I can say about him.

[rvablue]

136. Your post show so much ignorance it's breathtaking...........

Exhibit A: "he closed down Social Security offices for weeks on end as a stunt"

Bill Clinton did not shut down SS offices to show people how nasty it would be without it.

Newt Gingrich and the Republican controlled Congress held the budget hostage and refused to pass it and so the federal government had to shut down because there was no money.

Clinton didn't do that as a stunt or to prove anything, he was sticking up for the policies and agencies that your family actually needed that the Republicans were trying to gut.....Clinton did that to fight for American families, not to hurt you.

[Indenturedebtor]

94. I don't hate them. But Bill is slightly right of center

and Hillary ran a dirty campaign. :shrug:

I don't appreciate dirty politics, and I especially don't appreciate it when it's thrown at another Dem.

[BlooInBloo]

95. hahahaah! The OP just got smacked with a brazillion perfectly rational and valid reasons...

to not like Clinton(s). I guess we won't be seeing THAT question again anytime soon - Holy Backfire, Batman!!!

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

97. It appears that 75% of the posters responding DO NOT hate the Clintons.

Even the 25% negative only contained a few who seemed to hate the Clintons.

[Arkansas Granny]

103. I have come to the conclusion that some DUers have formed negative opinions

about the Clintons simply because Hillary had the audacity to challenge Obama for the Democratic nomination.

[Marrah_G]

107. yup

[marimour]

112. nope I just dont think it was necessary to stoop that low.

I know a superdelegate who was basically told "wink wink" that Obama couldn't win b/c he was black. That was the last straw for him and for me. It is perfectly possible to win while running an honorable campaign, its a shame she didn't try it this time. (don't hate them though just don't have the same level of admiration that I had before)

[Raineyb]

148. There are plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with the primaries to dislike the Clintons

Not everything is about the primaries of 2008.

Regards

[1corona4u]

105. It is irrational. End of story.

[ProSense]

106. It's is not irrational for people to have issues with the Clintons

Period.

[1corona4u]

108. No, it's just irrational to be obsessed with them...

and to continue to tear them apart daily, hourly, etc. on this board. But I guess some people have nothing better to do....

[Jennicut]

109. Yes, it is an obsession. The Clintons were moderate, did a fairly good job of running the country

in the 90's. Yes, they were jerks sometimes and so were their supporters. Hillary was supposed to have all the advantages and Obama turned it around on her and gave her a run for her money and ultimately defeated her. Guess what? Obama is prez, not Hillary. SoS is not the presidency. How much power did Colin Powell or Condi Rice have? They carried out what the president wanted because the president is in charge. Hill will be fine at SoS, she is smart lady. She is well known. Lots of foreign leaders know her. Geez, its not like Sarah Palin is being picked as SoS.

[ProSense]

113. It's irrational to continue mischaracterizing people's ciriticism of the Clintons as an obsession.

When they are in the news, people have every right to be part of the discussion. Just because you don't want to hear what Clinton critics have to say, doesn't mean you can labeled their participation in a discussion or them expressing their views on current news an obsession. There were some Demcorats who actually liked McCain and couldn't stand to hear criticisms of him in 2006 and 2007. They too claimed criticism of McCain was an obsession.

You have a choice: participate in the discussion or ignore it.

[1corona4u]

119. Kind of hard to ignore it, when it's 9 out of 10 threads on the board.

:eyes: besides, someone has to keep you all in check.

PS. I use the word obsession literally, not figuratively. For your edification;

Obsession;

–noun 1. the domination of one's thoughts or feelings by a persistent idea, image, desire, etc.
2. the idea, image, desire, feeling, etc., itself.
3. the state of being obsessed.
4. the act of obsessing.


I'd say the thoughts expressed on this board in regards to the Clinton's are 'persistent'. Shall I define that for you too?

[w4rma]

110. The DLC. (nt)

[WI_DEM]

111. I'm actually kind of fond of both of them.

[snooper2]

117. Dynasty

makes me want to :puke:

Bush- Clinton- Bush- Clinton...

Jeez, give me a fucking break 320 million people- we don't need the same two families running shit time after time...

[dionysus]

118. fyi, equating criticism to "hate" goes kinda overboard...

i don't care for them particularly after the primary, doesn't mean i "hate" them.

[area51]

125. Try "dislike", which I believe has been mentioned in this thread.

I can't stand Hillary Clinton b/c she's rightwing. She's a warhawk, she LOVES it when American jobs are offshored and has been happy to get into bed with Tata Consulting, and she's in favor of GingrichCare, which is a law forcing people to buy health insurance, and then having to show proof of insurance at a job interview, instead of being in favor of healthcare for all. This woman doesn't need to be anywhere near healthcare discussions.

[SeaLyons]

129. I love Hillary and Bill...n/t

[greguganus]

130. I want to drink their bath water. n/t

[Life Long Dem]

131. The Democrats didn't attack Clinton when he was president.

[Roland99]

132. How about a series of letters: DLC, NAFTA, DMCA

Pro-corporate finks.

SCREW THEM

[Forkboy]

133. The framing of this would make Lou Dobbs proud.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. video game censorship.

Support for the Iraq war.

Scorched earth racist campaign.

There's a few more, but that about covers it.

[shaniqua6392]

138. I love them both.

I think they are terrific and they make me proud to be a Democrat. Everyone always bashes the Clinton's and I don't understand it. Some Dems just go along with all of the propaganda against them which is done by Repukes. I hope the Obama years are half as good as the Clinton years!! I remember those years with fondness. The economy was so much better too. Now all we do is struggle to make ends meet.

[politicasista]

142. Don't hate. Two things about the Clinton presidency

that were good.

The economy and the music. The music, especially R&B, ain't been good since Clinton was in office. :)

[bridgit]

146. republican members of congress still allude that the Clinton's were involved in the murder...

of Vince Foster. Being subject to such whims, DUer's should just toss that in the ring too

[sniffa]

149. No hate here

for them. Well, for the campaign, yes.

I take it back.

The GE was good but that only brought it back to even with some still bubbling over animosity for some things that happened during the primary.

I loved some Clinton moments during the post-primaries and even cried about one (and posted a thread about it).

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

150. Cuz their museum sells Republican gear to children.

http://www.clintonmuseumstore.com/istarimages/mp/REIN-FR!REIN-805110_d.jpg

http://www.clintonmuseumstore.com/istar.asp?a=29&search=skids&sortby=Alpha&numperpage=8&pos=8

;)

lol