Isn't this push for the Big 3 to file bankruptcy just a way to bust the auto unions?

[redstate_democrat]

I mean, why the insistence from Republicans that these companies "reorganize" and file bankruptcy when the companies clearly don't want to? Isn't it true that a bankruptcy filing by the Big 3 would take years and costs billions of dollars? Isn't it also true that filing bankruptcy would effectively cause these companies to implode due to the nature of their business? Isn't the auto industry mainly about trust and confidence in the product? Buying a car is a long-term commitment that is not entered into lightly. People want assurances that the maker will be around just in case for warranties, replacement parts, recalls, and just in case people need to sue it for some reason. It's totally a move to expand free trade and bust unions. Most of the senators advocating for this represent the South, where they have "right to work" laws. I suspect they are trying to get the Big 3 to get out of their commitments and relocate to the South where they don't have to worry about unions. This could only be good for these southern senators who will be credited with bringing jobs "back home". Or they could just be working for their corporate masters who would like to see the end of unions. Maybe this is their way of starting a "national conversation" on the usefulness of unions. They know Obama is an advocate of the Employee Free Choice Act and they are scared to death. They want to stop it in its tracks and if that means blaming unions for the downfall of the Big 3, then so be it. They are really pushing for this bankruptcy as if it is the BE ALL and END ALL. Why not just LOAN them the 25 billion, far less than what would have to be spent in bankruptcy? Afterall, they would be responsible for repaying the loan.

Isn't this what it's really all about? :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

I have been saying this for weeks

one last fling at Reagan era thuggery.

:hi:

[redstate_democrat]

12. This sucks. These people really want to see the end of the middle class.

I can't believe they are actually advocating throwing retirees out on their butts.

[cliffordu]

1. I'm thinking you are right

[redstate_democrat]

5. I hope I'm not right, but this seems like what's happening.

I was listening to POTUS08 during the WH press conference and Dana Perino was blabbing on and on about how Republicans have a bill they want Reid to bring to the floor that would condition the money on the Big 3 reorganizing or something. I'm sure it requires them to some how get out of their contract with the union and flake on the pensioners.

[FormerDittoHead]

54. I think you are. I've seen this coming for YEARS.

I also heard that they have commitments to DEALERS, given certain MAKES of cars ("Mercury" Dealers, for example - Detroit can't FORCE them to change their names, and are COMMITTED to continuing lines of cars)....

But just TODAY, I saw the head of GM saying that, basically, they haven't done ANYTHING wrong, and that their situation is a result ONLY of the financial mess, and that because they've made NO MISTAKES, we should give THEM (ie: the execs) the money with NO STRINGS....

As if the unions would see DOLLAR ONE of that money, and given the license to do so, they wouldn't end up driving the companies into Chapter 11 to get the restructuring they want TOO...

[jody]

2. And dump all their retirement programs on the backs of tax-payers. n/t

[redstate_democrat]

18. This is crap.

The Republicans pushing for this should face hell come the next election. This is clearly anti-worker. I believe this has the smell of corruption written all over it. What gives them the right to unilaterally MAKE a company break a contract? This is immoral.

[sufrommich]

20. I think it would be safe to say that Michigan and Ohio will

stay deep blue (unless the Dems fuck us over,too).

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Yept, why Taft Hatley should be repealed

and the right to organize made sacrosanct

Don't count on it though

[grantcart]

4. What happens if after the loan the company is not reorganized

still bleeding money and its business plan is no longer viable?


I think its really about the fact that they have been continually losing market share, had a 40% decline in sales this year alone, while their competitors are still viable.


More than being an issue of wages I believe that it is an issue of benefits.


We should have a national single payer not for profit health system so that none of the manufacturers are burdened with health costs and that all of them are now competing on the same platform.

[redstate_democrat]

21. Well, I understand that the Big 3 are competitive.

GM sold like 8 and half million cars last year in the U.S. alone. The truth is that the U.S. has the loosest restrictions on trade. We let everything in. Our car makers can't even sell what the market demands in other countries because of the artificial caps they have imposed. Is this really FREE and FAIR trade? Why is it that South Korea and Japan can ship as many cars here they like, have dealerships, etc, but we can't do the same there?

What needs to happen is that Prez-Elect needs to explain to other countries' trade reps that unless their restrictions are lifted, we will impose our own so that our industry isn't negatively effected. We can create more demand in the U.S. and more jobs that way. Make their cars more expensive by leveling the tariffs. Whatever they charge, we charge.

Then get universal health care so that business expenses can be reduced so we will be on par with countries with socialized medicine and their companies which benefit from it.

[grantcart]

30. we can export but we don't design or market cars that they want to buy

For a long time American manufacturers refused to even build cars with right hand steering wheels.


Your information that the Big 3 is competitive is not supported by any analyst I have read.


Given the fact that GM has 7000 dealers and Toyota has only 1500 is one fact that completely destroys your argument.


GM is unable to undue the extremely unhealthy dealership arrangement because of all of the state laws that protect all of the different lines having their own dealers.


One of the thins that a structured bankruptcy would do is to allow GM to have the bankruptcy judge to throw out all of these antequated arrangements and allow them to have a much more efficient distribution and marketing system.

[amandabeech]

58. GM will go straight from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7.

So will Chrysler, and maybe Ford.

No one will buy their vehicles after they declare. Nardelli, the CEO of Chrysler, testified that when Chrysler went private sales went into a 37% nosedive.

GM commissioned studies trying to determine what would happen to their customers if they declared bankruptcy. Approximately 80% would go elsewhere, which if even half do, would sink them.

None, and I mean NONE, would get debtor-in-possession financing any more than they can get financing now if the current economic situation and credit freeze prevails. Which is most certainly will since CONGRESS and BUSH and PAULSON screwed up so badly with the TARP.

Then their are the suppliers, who will go through exactly the same thing.

PS--don't take out on autos what should have been taken out on financials and insurance companies. It is unfair and totally counter productive.

As to competitiveness in the first quarter before the economy tanked, show your research. Don't depend on biased sources, either, because this issue is very hot, and even many of the Senators were absolutely clueless about what has been going on in the auto industry in the last 3 years or so.

[sufrommich]

6. Yes, it is. "RIght to Work" is code for

"jobs go to the lowest bidders". And you can forget about quaint union concepts like health care. Sickening.

[Sebastian Doyle]

37. I always pictured "Right to Work" as the modern interpretation of.....

slavery :evilfrown:

[PretzelWarrior]

7. YES!!! I've been thinking the pressure's been building ever since Toyota and Honda set up shop

in the South. It's kind of similar to textiles moving from New England to the deep south back in pre Civil War years. The colonies were cheap labor for England. Then the South had become cheap labor for the north states. Over the decades, textiles and furniture manufacture has moved overseas.

Expect an all out war on unions until January when the new crowd is sworn in and passes a bailout package for the car companies.

[fujiyama]

66. Never looked at it this way

Interesting how history repeats itself in many ways...and how some regions never quite change all that much...

[political_Dem]

8. Exactly. The Republicans want to kill the Auto Unions and the Labor movement.

This was especially mentioned last week at the Miami Book Fair when they had a panel with Naomi Klein ("The Shock Doctrine") and Jeremy Scahill ("Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army"). They both seemed to believe that the politicians weren't the ones to start change; it is the people who have to fight for change--especially when it comes to making the economy work for them. They also believe that the enthusiasm that was created on Election night shouldn't be squandered.

Otherwise, those in power are going to ruin any movement that empowers everyday American citizens. But they won't step in the way for any of their cronies to earn some more cash by holding tax-payers hostage.

This is a warning signal to anyone who wants to have a fair and decent wage in the workforce.

It's not surprising at all. You hit the nail on the head.

[tularetom]

9. When all American cars are made by minimum wage workers in Bumfuck Alabama

I won't be buying any American cars.

[sufrommich]

16. Me neither, I support union workers. nt

[Thrill]

10. This is about making the Unions the vilian

[fascisthunter]

11. I Believe So... and will this Congress allow them bust the Unions

[Doremus]

13. Probably. The puke idiots don't stop to realize that there is NO CREDIT

The big 3 go into bankruptcy, that's it. There is no money to secure their credit lines.

Sure, the unions are bust but so is the whole fvcking enchilada.

[redstate_democrat]

23. It's disgusting.

I can't believe these people have the gall to get on tv and propose such a thing. It is CLEAR what their intention is. Disgusting. If the unions go, everybody suffers. This is an all out attack on workers.

We can't afford to lose a major part of our manufacturing sector. We have to make things in this country. There has to be an AMERICAN auto industry. I see it as a national security issue as well.

If we lose the American auto industry, then who will Americans be forced to buy from? Foreign countries. We would be sending BILLIONS MORE overseas.

[October]

14. Yeah, and I think Barney Frank is the only one mentioning it

besides you, that is...

[TexasObserver]

15. That's part of it. Mainly it's the GOP getting to cause the bankruptcies, then blame Democrats.

The GOP is obstructionist as a minority party. Unlike noted quislings Reid and Pelosi, the GOP knows how to use its position as a minority party. They'll obstruct all efforts at addressing problems, then blame those problems on Democrats.

[BrklynLiberal]

17. Yes. absolutely.

They are blaming the cost of union benefits for the problem in the industry...not the horribly wrong decisions and obscene salaries of the management.

[RollWithIt]

19. Yes, it is, plain and simple if Ford or GM declare bankruptcy union contracts will be void....

Not going to go into it, but the Republican push for bankruptcy is a union busting tool.

[Barack_America]

22. Yes. And also a push to kill employer-provided health care.

Considering the auto unions' insistence on providing workers with health care is the main argument about why they are non-competitive.

[Ozma]

24. I would say so!

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. One of the right wing shit for brain Senators admitted as much

I heard this on the radio, so I don't remember exactly which idiot it was or from what state, but apparently its one with a foreign owned car factory because he was whining about how those damn GM employees made three times as much as the auto workers in his state.

AS IF THAT WERE A BAD THING??? :grr:

[sufrommich]

26. There was one on Tweety too. Bragging about the "cheap"

health costs in Right to Work states (read practically non existent) and proudly braying "none of my constituents make anywhere near what those GM workers make".Gee, there's something to aim for.

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. Did you happen to notice who it was?

Should invite him up to Michigan. Let Michael Moore give him a tour of Flint or some other area devastated by the policies of the last 28 years.

[sufrommich]

28. He was from Tennessee,I think. They won't have to drive all

the way to Flint. North of Cincinnati to the Mackinac Bridge will all resemble Flint when the dust clears.

[amandabeech]

60. Actually, new workers will make $14-$15 and have reduced benefits.

A lot of the arguing on the Senate side was about how much the payments were to retire current workers prematurely and how to cut wages for those same workers if they stay.

Almost none of the bozos knew anything about the 2007 labor contract, and that goes for dems as well as pukes.

And don't get me going on that idiotic fascist class warrior, Mika Brzhinsky on Morning Joe. I stopped watching MSNBC during the primaries because of the gender bias against Hillary Clinton, who I don't even like very much.

Pukes Barnicle and Scarborough were defending with a useless, and I mean useless "expert" who didn't even know the names of the hybrids made by the Big 3, and Mike was using a little researcher to pick and choose which "facts" she put out there. I wasn't aware that she had an editorial spot.

That was Tuesday, and I'm still steaming.

[jody]

29. "AS IF THAT WERE A BAD THING???" Don't know if it's bad but jobs clearly move from MI/US cars to AL

with its foreign car manufacturers.

Perhaps former employed automotive workers in MI may be the best judge of that.

"Alabama currently ranks 2nd in the nation behind Detroit in automobile output. With recent expansions at sites in Alabama, by early 2009 the state will surpass Detroit and become the largest builder of automobiles in North America."

[sufrommich]

31. All states should aspire to be just like Alabama.

:scared:

[jody]

34. I see nothing wrong with having Alabamians producing automobiles while MI workers complain about

their wages being lowered or jobs lost.

If you personally object, then please don't purchase a Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Hyundai car from our plants.

Continue to purchase GM, Ford, or Chrysler products.

It's wonderful that you have the choice of choosing between different cars rather than one design.

[sufrommich]

36. Hey, what do you do for a living? Let's give your job to the

lowest bidder who will do it to keep from starving. Hell,let's all work for as little as possible.

[jody]

42. You do know of course that Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Hyundai locate their plants where total cost of

production and delivery are considered and that certainly includes low labor costs.

[sufrommich]

44. So low labor costs is the golden ring? nt

[jody]

46. Not just low labor cost, but the lowest labor cost available that produces

the desired quality of the service or product produced.

[Maccagirl]

39. Wait until YOUR workers get mauled for the sake of

"the market". It won't be long.

[jody]

45. I agree probably "It won't be long" but you could also be affected directly or indirectly by

outsourcing jobs, in-sourcing jobs to professionals under various visa programs, by allowing more legal immigrants to enter our work force, and by giving citizenship to the 10+ million illegal aliens in our country.

I don't know the answer to such problems but I do know that not one single politician in the current Senate or House knows the answer either.

[Sebastian Doyle]

32. Any time union jobs are "replaced" by non union jobs at 1/3 the salary, it's a BAD thing.

So when Mr. Right Wing senator says it's a BAD thing for UAW members to make three times as much as someone doing the same job in Alabama or Tennessee, it's not the Michigan auto workers or their unions that are doing something wrong. It's the politicians in the other states that allow scab labor in the first place.

The auto workers in YOUR state should be making as much as the guys in Michigan are.

[sufrommich]

33. Mr. Right Wing Senator not only said it,

he said it with a big ol' stupid smile on his face.

[jody]

40. I'm not sure what is your point. Do you agree that salaries should go up 3 times and drive

production with its jobs back to Germany, Japan, and Korea?

[sufrommich]

43. My point is, I like the America that has a middle class.

Is $10.00 an hour considered a middle class wage down there? Henry Ford was asked once why he paid his workers so much,he answered "someone has to buy my cars". Why would you want to go backward ?

[jody]

47. You raise interesting moral points so I assume you never buy items produced in third world countries

with near slave labor including perhaps children and under conditions that pollute the environment.

I admire your ability to live your life as you preach.

[sufrommich]

48. I buy UNION MADE American products as often as I can,

unfortunately,those products are going the way of the dinosaur. I'm sure we'll all be much better off without those good paying jobs that were the backbone of this country for decades.I guess we should learn to love our shiny new lowered expectations.

[jody]

52. I also buy US produced products and personally boycott major chains that sell products mostly

produced overseas.

That includes automobiles and I've never purchased one from a foreign company.

That's why I feel personally betrayed by Ford, GM, and Chrysler in bed with the UAW that must share the blame for some of our current problems.

I personally know several children of retired UAW workers from the Big 3 and they angrily oppose the bailout knowing full well that their parents retirement benefits will be reduced.

[Zynx]

62. To the more heavily unionized Germany and Japan? I don't think that would happen.

[jody]

35. On the other hand those same workers are glad to have a decent job. Perhaps you should talk to a few

workers from Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Hyundai plants before you spout more unsupported assertions.

[Zynx]

61. I don't particularly relish the fact that Alabamans are willing to work for shit

so they bid our entire economy down the drain.

Btw, yes I despise the Deep South and its culture of gutting education and simply trying to outbid the rest of the country into submission with low skill, low cost labor. I'm glad that there are only so many people in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana.

[jody]

65. OK you "despise the Deep South" but your opinion is higher than theirs about you. n/t

[Zynx]

73. The Deep South has historically been a piss poor run region of the country.

There is little glorious in anything they have ever done as a region. Wisconsin has made many great contributions to this country, so has Michigan. The modern contribution of the Deep South has been the attempt to deindustrialize the North by letting their workers be taken advantage of.

[jody]

80. Auto mfg workers in the South laugh all the way to cash their checks at the bank while MI unemployed

workers go to the food-bank.

That's just the ways things are. :shrug:

[pampango]

71. Now the Deep South is the equivalent of the Third World? When people protest outsourcing

to China, India, etc. at least they can couch in patriot terms of protecting American jobs from "foreigners".

Are these protests now extended to "outsourcing" Michigan jobs to Alabama? Is it "patriotic" to protect Michigan jobs from Alabamians (who would then must be the "foreigners)? What's next? Will we protest when Ann Arbor attracts jobs from Grand Rapids? Is it really all about protecting the jobs in our town or our neighborhood with no regard to state or country?

People in Michigan, Alabama, China and India all work for the highest wages they can obtain, but the economies in each location are different. I am sure that people in Alabama (and China and India) would love to work for "Michigan" wages, but if they can't then they work for the best wages they can find. Wages in these areas have increased in recent decades but are still lower than in Michigan. How do we help them continue to grow and reach some level of parity without penalizing the people of Michigan?

[Zynx]

72. It's not my fault Alabamans don't know what their labor is worth.

[jody]

78. Their labor is worth what they are paid just like MI workers who are unemployed receive zero. n/t

[jody]

77. Eloquently stated. n/t

[abumbyanyothername]

38. The issue is not workers vs owners

What is going on here is that current bk law favors creditors over worker legacy payments. It is likely that the dems will change that law to give priority to worker obligations. This is a Barack perspective even more than a dem perspective.

The CREDITORS of GM want instant bk to protect their loans against being dropped in priority vis a vis employee claims.

[zonmoy]

41. I am honestly surprised that the republicans aren't openly calling

for the return of slavery. Or is that why they filled up all the prisons and had all those drug laws for.

[Sebastian Doyle]

49. Exactly!

Prison labor = legalized slavery.

And since it's not always a good idea to throw a bunch of mass murderers into one confined space, you need a "mellower" class of "criminal". How about a bunch of potheads? And as long as you're legalizing slavery, well you might as well go with a system that "favors" the people that we brought over to be slaves in the first place, right?

:sarcasm: <--- probably not really needed, but you never can tell around here.....

[MarthaMyDear]

50. The union workers don't help by saying...

..."I'm having to cut back on my dental check-ups..."..."My children AND grandchildren AND parents rely on me for income.."

Sorry, but your own weird family situation where no one works isn't my problem...dental check-ups? Most people where I live don't even have dental insurance and haven't been able to afford any dental health care in years!

Big 3 CEOs with private jets...

Seriously, I think they all need a new PR guy or something!

[jody]

56. Looks like you and I associate with the same type of blue-collar workers, my relatives & friends. nt

[Raineyb]

57. Right because dental check-ups is a luxury that should be reserved for the rich.

The problem isn't that the union worker has dental coverage for his or her family. The problem is YOU do not. You're looking at it exactly backwards.

Regards

[joshcryer]

51. Yes, there was a big hubhub about GM people getting $75 an hour vs Toyota giving $40.

The reason the GM people get paid more is, you guessed it, unions.

[Myrina]

53. Yep

... as has been the whole pooh-poohing of the bailout because 'labor costs are too high'.

Rather than look at eliminating a handful CEO's, the cronies want to allow the Big 3 to eliminate thousands of workers, their pensions, their health care, etc etc. And what that will do, IMO, is crash what's left of our economy.

3 unemployed CEO's don't put too big a dent in the national cash flow.
3000 unemployed floor workers does.

[AZBlue]

55. That'sEXACTLY what it is and I hope someone calls them on it.

That and the desire to make the economy even worse for President Obama.

[scarletwoman]

59. On the other hand, it's a perfect opportunity to push for single-payer universal health care.

Otherwise known as "socialism".

[happychatter]

68. I like the way you think - no text

[prolesunited]

63. Yep, they did it to the steel industry

Cut all the legacy costs, and voila, they industry is profitable, well, for the big wigs any way.

Workers got so screwed. They would forgo raises for promises for health care and better retirement packages. Those promises disappear in the bankruptcy. The workers, who did everything that was expected of them, get screwed.

[TheKentuckian]

64. You're seeing this right, redstate

I can't believe people on our side of the fence would even come close to buying the load of crap the GOP is selling.

From a pure practicality standpoint this is a no-brainer. Even if we have to life support the Big 3 forever with 25-50b a year, we'd take in 4-8 times that in tax revenue so we're talking a net gain. I'm not that caught up in the "free market" to cut off my nose to spite my face. Fuck a market principle, if it increases the tax burden and devastates whole sections of the country.
Not, that this would even remotely be the case. Likely any infusion of money will be temporary but what's the practical argument against spending 25 billion to make 184? Especially, when it comes with keeping millions of people working, making middle class wages, and in their homes?

No, this whole fight is a last ditch effort to finish Reagan's work of destroying the unions and the middle class right along with them and turning around and blaming Democrats for it.
Its also past time to demand that our corporate shill leaders stop shoving global trade down our throats when we either have to compete on an uneven playing field and lose or annihilate our standard of living to do it.
How are we supposed to compete with countries with effectively slave labor or those that assist their companies with retirement, health care, and R&D?

There is not a single apples to apples comparison in this industry. How are these companies going to compete when they don't get the backup the competition does and to make matters worse we have the worst cafe and emissions standards in the modern world?

If you're against keeping the automotive industry going by any practical measures then you are in favor of a third world America, in my opinion. Especially right now. We don't have enough decent paying jobs now to keep the middle class afloat or to provide a way up for the poor.
How Democrats want the world of the ultra-rich and the indentured poor with nothing in between, I cannot begin to relate to. Helping these companies while we have the gun to their heads is beautiful! Right here and now we can put the collar on them and force them to be the cornerstone of our new energy initiatives and we have people bickering about a bunch of theory and principles that won't feed a single family, much less millions.

[Marrah_G]

69. I don't understand this new crop of Dems.

We need to bring BACK more unions, not cheer as the last few flame out.

My kids have great dental care and health care because their father is a Teamster. The teamsters here have their own dental office and even their own pharmacy. Sort of like that socialized medicine we are all pushing so hard for. I am thankful that my ex is a Teamster.

[Marrah_G]

67. Absolutely !

We have some loud anti-labor folks here now.

[Ganja Ninja]

70. Yes it's exactly that.

The big three learned long ago that the best way to negotiate is from a position of weakness. It's how they play the game.

You want a new auto plant built in your community? They need a tax break. And make it bigger than the other competing community's tax break or they'll go there.

Same for the unions. They pit one local against the other for the most favorable work rules.

Now they're going to the feds threatening bankruptcy if they don't get a loan. Either way it's fine for them. They get a low interest loan or they use bankruptcy to screw their unions. Both would be preferable if possible.

I think the government should let them go into bankruptcy. The judge could then make them divulge all their assets and force the sale of some of those to pay their obligations to the UAW's pensioners. It would be a wonderful thing to see them stripped of all their offshore investments and foreign subsidiaries and the recovered monies spent to revitalize their American operations.

[dkofos]

74. YES

[Doctor_J]

75. Yes

Hartmann explained this completely and thoughtfully last week. The Repukes are afraid that unions will make a comeback, and are trying to destroy the UAW before Smirk leaves office.

[genna]

76. Yes, Republicans want to break the back of the unions and not honor the health & retirement benefits

of their workers.

I think the Republicans would go after service people, civil servants, and anyone else under government's health and retirement benefits too. I don't think they know when to quit.

They've gotten $700 billion. They've refused to spend on median to low wage earners.


I think Republicans don't want a middle class. I think they'd take us to filthy rich and poor with no academicians and no access to upward mobility. They stink to high heaven.

[alwysdrunk]

79. Of course it is

Helping millionaire bankers: SAVING OUR SYSTEM, THE ONLY POSSIBLE CHOICE!
Helping workers with the AUDACITY to negotiate better compensation: SOCIALISM!!!