DU's Night of the Long Knives

[Tempest]

At least that's the way it appears if you express any dissenting viewpoint of Obama's cabinet choices.

[politicasista]

1. No dissent

It's just that people got their wish and are happy. And others are tired of good people being overlooked.

[OKNancy]

2. I don't think it's that bad.

Someone will disagree with you, but no one has been banned or anything as far as I know.

[Tempest]

9. Posters are being put on ignore for voicing dissent

No one will be banned, but dissent is being stifled by other means.

We're being shouted down and called everything but child molesters.

[Bicoastal]

65. With sane, rational OP's like these, why on Earth would people put you on Ignore?

:eyes:

Oh, and I'm invoking Godwin's Law.

[Tempest]

67. It got a lot of people's attention

And resulted in a healthy debate on the subject.

Mission Accomplished.

[Phredicles]

68. I think equating putting on ignore with stifling dissent is severely over the top.

If you disagree with me to the point that you wish to put me on ignore I'll understand.

[struggle4progress]

84. "Putting on Ignore" = "Night of the Long Knives"?

[Joe the Liberal]

3. I'ts just that he has too many Clinton people.......

not that I have anything against Clinton but he could surly find someone who doesn't have ties to the Clinton administration who is equally qualified. That's the only thing that I don't like but everything else he's done has been great.

[tigereye]

5. one could argue that the Clinton folks are the only recent Dems to run a

government....

[HereSince1628]

58. Not true. People are forgetting there are experienced people in state government

And I am not just talking about governors.

Almost every dept of the federal government has a parallel in state government. There are LOTS of talented people out in the states.

My point is simply that DU'ers who say no one is available aren't really considering the pool of the potentially available.

Some states have agencies bigger than European governments. Excellent experienced people are out there.

[tigereye]

74. running something in Washington is quite different

I understand what you mean, but it seems like Obama is taking some skills from previous Dem admins, and also "keeping his enemies close" a la Lincoln.

[HereSince1628]

80. "Running something in Washington is 'different'"

Different in thatphrase is pretty ambiguous. It could build on almost anything to claim a difference.

I don't think that there is all that much substative difference. The states deal with the same federal law and regulatory rules and regulators in Washington. States also deal with their own state laws and regulation. Consequently administrators working at the state level know both the federal system and how the state and federal government articulate and fail to articulate. Something that could be very useful in trying to build effective government. The difference seems more of stepping up to the next level of responsibility and dealing with different (perhaps not better) legislators.

What I keep telling myself is that a president's Cabinet is a gaggle of advisors as much as it is a gang of administrators. What seems to be the case is that Obama's Cabinet is developing along two tracks that reflect those two roles for cabinet members.

Obama is putting into the cabinet people who have legislative experience into positions where he is going to have legistlative agendas. There is an undeniably legitimate rationale in that approach. He is putting in people with actual expertise into fields where the issue is going to be actually running Departments and implementing critical policy. For example, he chose real experts in financial areas where doing the job of the agency is really considered immportant and Obama has selected a politician for HHS, where the job is going to be pushing a new legislative initiative. Daschle's expertise in health comes down to working for a K-Street firm that specializes in lobbying for health industry interests and having his name put on a book about health care policy that is largely the intellectual effort of an academician (Jeanne Lambrew). Daschle's useful knowledge is his understanding of the US Senate. The day-to-day operations of HHS is going to fall to Assistant and Associate Secretaries.

[trueblue2007]

71. Maybe that is cuz CLINTON HAD GREAT PEOPLE in his cabinet.

[tigereye]

75. there were some excellent folks...

I guess it would be cool if folks were floating some likely names that are outside that purview, rather than complaining about the ones he has already picked.

[Tempest]

77. I know I have

Paul Krugman for Treasury Secretary, for example.

Instead we get a globalist who led the cheerleading for the banking bailout.

[tigereye]

79. I like Krugman...

[Shiver]

93. Has Krugman indicated he would take the position if offered?

I haven't heard any indication that he has - which isn't to say the information isn't out there, just that I haven't seen it. It could be that he was offered the job, but turned them down.

[camera obscura]

4. Nazi comparisons, that's new

[Tempest]

21. Not new

But accurate if you read what is being said about those of us who question his picks.

[tekisui]

6. Oh woe-is-you.

:nopity: :cry:

Dissent all you want, but stupid shit will be called justthat.

[EFerrari]

8. Because insult and ridicule are such compelling arguments.

[tekisui]

11. I am all for compelling argument and discussion,

but that OP has neither. It is a little whine.

[Tempest]

12. It seems to be working for them

Because we're seeing a whole lot of it.

[EFerrari]

23. I know. Don't mind them. It's only a handful of people.

Find the people you like to talk to and find the receptive threads or post one. Remember, DU is a huge place.

Ignore is a good tool, too. :hi:

[BooScout]

7. Actually.........

I don't think you're dissenting. I think you are being whiney. Deal with it.

[Tempest]

13. I thought you said you were putting me on ignore

We now know how little conviction you have.

As far as you thinking I'm being whiney, tough fucking shit.

[BooScout]

25. Have I told you I was putting you on ignore?

No I haven't told you that. I just got here a few minutes ago..........saw the state of the board and told people in general to get a grip and deal with it. Obama hasn't even been sworn in yet and people are bitching about every little thing he does.

You're the one that decided to take it personally and start your own wah wah thread about being ignored by people. I wasn't singling you out in my thread.......but if you saw yourself in my description then you need to deal with it.

:shrug:

[Tempest]

29. I apologize, it was another poster

My thread isn't about being put on ignore, but you proved my point anyway. Thanks for that.

[Two Americas]

22. projection?

There is nothing whiny about the OP, brief and to the poi9nt as it may be and as uncomfortable as it may be for you to see.

However your post is whiny, and is also an example of what the OP is talking about.

I, too, am being brief here, but would welcome an extended and thoughtful discussion on this subject. Those who are objecting to the ongoing attempts at suppression of a free and open discussion here are not walking away from the threads, for the most part are not reciprocating and returning the ad hominem attacks leveled against them, and are trying to discuss this issue thoughtfully and in depth.

[BooScout]

30. Oh there you are wrong.....

He's been whiney from the minute he spotted me tonight. This is not the first time our paths have crossed.

I'm not objecting to a free and open discussion of any sort. I am simply sick and tired of people whinging on about every move Obama makes. I'd like to at least have him be sworn in before we start ripping him to shreds.

[EFerrari]

39. Your paths didn't cross. You posted to his thread.

lol

[Tempest]

46. Apparently he thinks I'm stalking him

That's why he's posting AFTER I do on several threads.

I know, it doesn't make sense to me either.

[EFerrari]

48. We should just go start a game of Twister in the Lounge.

It would be more fun, I think.

[Tempest]

52. No can do

I'm only two months out of shoulder surgery and it still doesn't have much flexibility.

How about a game of scrabble?

[EFerrari]

54. I have to warn you, I've played before.

:evilgrin:

[Tempest]

56. I grew up with 9 brothers and sisters

And no TV.

Board games are as natural to me as breathing.

Get ready to rumble. LOL

[Two Americas]

41. ok

Maybe some of us are tired of people whining about other people supposedly whining. Why is dissent to be discouraged and dismissed as "whining" but the petty and continual complaints, usually laced with mean-spirited ad hominem attacks, by those unwilling to tolerate any dissent not called "whining?"

I know of no person, let alone any group of people, "whining on about every move Obama makes" nor do I see anyone "ripping him to shreds." When and if someone is doing something like that, refute that person's argument when it comes up. Problem solved.

[Sebastian Doyle]

51. Right... because it's easy not to care if this country falls apart

..when you don't have to live in it.

Maybe we should let a bunch of corporatist tools take over Wales for the next 28 years, and see how you feel then?

[Tempest]

53. You don't even have to wait that long

Look at what happened in Iceland when the British corporists took their money and ran.

[Bake]

10. Oh. I thought you were talkinga bout all the people bitching about the cabinet.

THEY were the ones with the long knives ... oops.

Bake

[Tempest]

16. We're not the ones being vilified

And ganged up on.

But being a smartass instead of recognizing the obvious is so much easier, isn't it?

[Bake]

91. Actually it is, and more fun, too.

I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored.

Bake

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Worse than oppressive, it is dull, just so dull

A discussion board minus discussion equals bored.

[democrat2thecore]

15. Some people were caught up in the campaign and don't realize it's all about POLICY. This is CHANGE?

It is OUR job to hold his feet to the fire. God knows big capital is doing it, and so far, successfully.

[Tempest]

19. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt

But apparently even hinting that you're not happy with his picks is akin to treason by many posters.

[depakid]

17. I didn't see too many people cheering over Daschle

or slamming others who expressed dissent (or more oftenm exasperation).

[Tempest]

28. Read the threads about Clinton as SoS

Or Obama's choice as Treasury Secretary.

You'll see more than slamming going on.

[depakid]

35. That shouldn't surprise anyone

Hillary is a divisive figure on DU and very few around have been acting rationally when it comes to the credit/economic crisis.

One thing people ought to bear in mind (regardless of their opinions on Hillary) is that the Clintons not only had many foreign policy successes, but they're still highly respected- even loved abroad.

[Tempest]

38. Being loved and being successful at your job are different

George Clooney is loved but has been unsuccessful at his pet project of getting recognition and assistance of Darfur's plight.

Bill Clinton is loved around the world, Hillary not so much.

[Orangepeel]

18. I see plenty of such posts, so it doesn't seem like people are being killed for them

Such posts might receive lots of negative responses.

So what?

[Tempest]

24. No deaths

But posters are getting put on ignore for questioning Obama's picks.

And negative responses doesn't start to cover what is being said.

I guess symbolism is a lost art.

[Orangepeel]

49. but hyperbole isn't.

Dissenting opinions are going to result in disagreement, not pats on the back. Personal attacks should be alerted, but rudeness on the Internet is par for the course.

Personally, I don't have anyone on ignore, but why should I care if others do? I can't force people to interact with me.

[dailykoff]

20. This heavy Clinton alignment is revolting.

Wasn't it the Kennedy wing of the party that gave him a platform in 04 and promoted him in 08 as an alternative to the Clinton cleptocracy? And then first thing he does is hand the WH keys over to Rahm and Hillary? Geezus K what kind of treachery is this? I'm really disgusted.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

34. Oh, the irony

It is strong in the kool-aid drinkers.

[cali]

42. do you have an original thought or do you just regurgitate cliches

and you might consider finding out what the word irony means, dearie

[Tempest]

47. I'm well aware of what irony means

Can't say I'm surprised it was lost on you.

[Forkboy]

36. I have to ask, do you wipe your ass with steel wool?

Because you seem highly agitated almost all the time.

[cali]

45. not agitated at all. just have a low tolerance for

for stupid. and half the time you know you agree with me, even if you don't agree with how I put things. And your reading is selective. I often post reasoned OPs. They generally get little attention.

[Forkboy]

55. I read your few reasoned ones too.

But they seem a lot fewer and farther between compared to your amount of posts where you just go off like a raging nana. Saying you're not agitated at all would seem to be a bit of a dishonest stretch. If not, I'd hate to see how you are when you really are agitated.

They generally get little attention.

It's often quite hard to figure out just what kind of attention you're looking for. :shrug:

[cali]

72. i've never seen you post on one of my OPs

you just seem to enjoy playing the scold. go for it.

And yeah, I get pissed off. there's a differences between that and agitation. One more thing, your focus on my post in this thread is amusing in the light of the OP title which essentially accuses critics of self-titled dissenters of using Nazi tactics.

[Forkboy]

73. I think you'll live.

you just seem to enjoy playing the scold

The irony here borders on the spectacular.

One more thing...I responded to the OP as well you. Pay attention.

[pecwae]

82. LOL! I have to remember that one.

[EFerrari]

40. LOL!

:rofl:

[RollWithIt]

27. I don't mind dissent or criticism.. but simply saying they worked with Clinton in the 90s is dumb

Any Democrat who is worth anything in Washington had some sort of connection to the Clinton Administration in the 90s.

[Tempest]

31. It's not just working for Clinton

It was what they did while working for Clinton and what they've done afterwards.

Look at the Treasury Secretary pick. He's another globalist who championed the bank bailout and worked with Paulson in distributing the funds. Funds we have now found out can't be traced and were given to his buddies.

[tekisui]

33. Everyone who ever worked for a Clinton ever is tainted and should be shuned.

Once you call a Clinton a boss, you have sold you soul to the corporatist DLCers. We should have an ineffective team like Carter and get nothing done, don't you know.

:banghead:

[BuyingThyme]

32. The pendulum is coming your way.

:duck:

[Forkboy]

37. I've told you a million times, do not exaggerate!

[Tempest]

43. Funny

I don't recall having any conversations with you.

What's it called when you use an extreme example to make a point?

[EFerrari]

44. Poetry?

lol

[Tempest]

50. I guess that's as good as anything

Although I never considered myself to be a poet.

[Forkboy]

57. An extreme example?

:shrug:

BTW, my post is a joke ("A million times...don't exaggerate." Is this thing on?). I haven't really told you anything.

[Tempest]

59. You'll have to catch me when I'm not so riled up

Being a long time member of DU and then getting accused of some of the things I have been today, I'm naturally a little fired up.

The red cape being waved in front of me doesn't help with the firing of the brain synapses, you know.

:toast:

[grantcart]

60. Beat the freepers in tearing down the President Elect and then wear the martyr clothes

If you think you have a better read on these people than Obama who has spent the last few years in close contact with them then go ahead and take your shot.

But don't expect that your highly presumptive and premature criticisms of an administration that hasn't been announced and whose president hasn't taken the oath of office will not be met without comment.

[EFerrari]

62. I love you, grantcart, but there's nothin' premature or presumptuous

about discussing choices that are being made now. The oath has nothing to do with it.

[grantcart]

70. Its fine to discuss it but its something entirely different to

post your opinion and then when others disagree claim martyrdom.

[EFerrari]

78. Yes, that is different. On the other hand, after some of the shit I've read here today

it doesn't surprise me at all that people feel battered.

[Tempest]

64. No one is beating down Obama

Dissent is healthy in a democracy.

You wouldn't know it from reading posts like yours though.

I may just have a better read on some of these people after spending the last 8 years reading about them and the actions they've taken.

Look at Obama's transition team. He's taking advice from them and they're top heavy from the DLC.

[CakeGrrl]

61. I have to agree. I've seen people sworn at and called "delusional" for not liking the choices.

Personally, I'm not warm and fuzzy about the Clinton choice. My gut reaction is not positive. It just isn't.

Unless Hillary was totally lying and didn't mean a word she said during the primaries, I'm not happy with her conduct during the campaign or her stated attitude toward Obama's qualifications or positions. I've spoken to several others outside of political forums who share my feeling of mistrust.

If that gets me labeled a "Clinton hater" who is "delusional", so be it. But I'd say that those who need to start name-calling in defense of the Clintons aren't contributing much to a positive dialogue.

That said, I'll believe Obama made a good choice when I see it in action. Time is the only thing that will tell.

[Tempest]

66. Wear those labels with pride

In Hillary's case as SoS, her past history of supporting the Iraq war and Bush's militarization of Africa plan are reasons enough for me not to be happy about her being in Obama's administration.

The Treasury Secretary pick leaves me cold as well considering he championed the bank bailout and was part of Paulson's team in distributing the funds (which most can't be traced and what we do know of went to Paulson's friends).


But such reasoned skepticism is ridiculed by the rabid Obama supporters.

[Bicoastal]

63. oops delete

[MoonRiver]

69. Obama's decisions have NOTHING to do with DU.

It's absurd that any of the whining titty babies here think their opinions about cabinet choices matter to President-elect Obama. :eyes:

[Tempest]

76. You're being a little presumptuous, don't you think?

It's absurd that any of the whining titty babies here think their opinions about cabinet choices matter to President-elect Obama.

No one thinks that.

Except for you apparently.

[tomp]

85. and why DON'T our opinions matter to obama?

I thought he was going to be president of everyone. you'd never know it from his staff and cabinet choices. the landslide messiah is not who the world thinks he is.

still waiting for change.

and the whining titty babies thing is what the op is about. it's bullshit and really ought to be banned but skinner et al let provocations like that slide. could it be that du is not as progressive as some think?

[olegramps]

81. I am confident that his choices are people that will assist him in bringing about change.

He is the antithesis of Bush. Bush brought in the PNAC neo-cons that he was TOLD would make up his cabinet. The major players were all supported one philosophy that they were going to transform the Middle East into Western type democracies. If this required the use of military power to do so they would not hesitate to launch a preemptive war. They just told the brainless and spineless Bush, who they easily convinced that God had ordained him to lead a holy crusade, what the policy was as they led him around on a short leash.

This is the very crux of the Bush administration and what has brought our nation to the brink of collapse.

I don't think for one minute that Obama can be controlled by his appointees. Hillary Clinton is being chosen because she can do much to forward his policy to rebuild our relationship with our former allies. Her major task will be to rebuilt our reputation through out the world as being a nation that desires cooperation to solve problems rather than belligerence that has been the hallmark of the neo-cons fascists.

[political_Dem]

83. I believe dissent is healthy.

Look at what happened to the GOP. In their structure, dissent was inconsequential and discouraged. When people on their side finally do speak back, they are often ostracized. And what has occurred? Because everyone has been told to pipe down, their entire base fell apart. What only holds them together is the indoctrination of the Dittoheads. Without that, what else do they have?

I tend to think that without people questioning and being critical, we're eventually going to end up like them: a party of robots who are threatened into silence by the authoritarian foot soldiers of the party.

I would rather us discuss these pertinent questions, because in the end, it will help us sharpen our focus about what we expect from the Obama administration. Furthermore, it will help us to ask for what we need to make this country better.

If we didn't have people to toss around these issues, the Democratic party would be rather a stale and unimaginative in their approach.

That is why after all the years of Reaganism and Bushism (yes, both Bushes):

1)We've got to do is take the definition of liberalism back from the conservatives.

2)We've got to be more vocal about the values which makes our party strong

3)We've got to continue the grassroots effort so that we can implement those ideas at the local level (as well as let them translate up to the federal level).

4)Never be silent about what we think about their choices

5)Learn to fight back against the attacks on liberalism. It is most definite that we cannot roll over and play dead whenever Republicans try to mow us over. We've got to be strong and face them off with logic and action against their arguments.

6)We must recognize that despite bi-partisanship, the Republicans are not about to sing kum-baya with us for long. They never have. They never will. It always comes down to what they can get out of it before thinking about how it might affect their constituents or the American people in general.

[Vinnie From Indy]

86. A bit of a drama queen with this post?

People disagreeing on DU? OMG!

[NJmaverick]

87. Hyperbole much?

:rofl:

[MilesColtrane]

88. You've just won the Hyperbole!

What's next for you?

Going to Disneyland?

[OneBlueSky]

89. I'd love to see Obama appoint nothing but progressives and liberals . . .

to his cabinet, but it ain't gonna happen . . . and I'm okay with that . . .

as a late comer to the Obama campaign, I've come to trust his intelligence and his judgement, and I'm confident that he's picking the people he's picking to maximize his chances of getting things done . . . while I'd love to see, say, a Jim Hightower at Agriculture, I know that his tenure would be marked by controversy and disagreement, since his views are so out in front of anything the nation or Obama are ready for . . .

so I'll accept whomever Obama chooses, and trust that he knows what he's doing . . . the bottom line is no matter who he appoints, his administration is going to be a gazillion miles ahead of what we've had for the past eight years -- a breath of fresh air in the sweaty good ole boys' locker room that is Washington . . .

[1776Forever]

90. This is an opinion posting blog and I respect all the views I read here. I may not agree but just

yesterday I found out about Gov. Janet Napolitano being very fond of H-1B visas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=403841&mesg_id=403841

I am not happy with this at all and wouldn't have known about it if it hadn't been posted here. Issues like this are valid and need to be discussed in this forum! Bring it on! 1st Amendment issues are what Democracy is all founded on!

[kevinds13]

92. Yes

The start of one of the worst episode's in world history is somehow on an equal basis with putting people on ignore.

:eyes: