Clarence Thomas takes up case against Obama -- re: citizenship

[pnwmom]

Please don't shoot the messenger -- I'm hoping this is just garbage, but I don't know why this case has gotten this far. And I don't trust the SCOTUS, do you?

http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2008/081119/FrntPgJusticeThomas.html

WASHINGTON, D.C. – On Wednesday, Nov. 19, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas distributed Leo C. Denofrio’s renewed application for a stay of the election for conference on Dec. 5.

If four of the nine justices favor review, a hearing will be scheduled.

His first application was denied by Justice David Souter on Nov. 6. However, rules of the court allow for the renewed submission to a justice of choice.

Beginning in October, Denofrio made his way up through the ranks of the courts until his constitutional question as to the meaning of “natural born citizen” reached the Supreme Court.

He submitted an application for an emergency stay to prohibit the use of what he called “defective ballots” in the state of New Jersey because they contained ineligible candidates for the office of President of the United States, and asked that the court order New Jersey Secretary of State (SOS) Nina Mitchell Wells to remove the names of Republican candidate John McCain, Democratic candidate Barack Obama and Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero from New Jersey ballots.

According to Denofrio, the three candidates are not “natural born citizens,” as required by the Constitution to hold the office of President of the United States.

Denofrio contends Obama, even if it were proven he was born in Hawaii, because his father was born in Kenya, having been born with split and competing loyalties, is not a ‘natural born citizen’ as required by Article 2, Section 1, of the U.S. Constitution.”

SNIP

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Is Denofrio allowed out only on weekends..or does he take his meds on the outside?

[pnwmom]

3. Souter denied the application. Thomas accepted it, and he only needs

three other justices to put this on the calendar.

Do you think he won't get them?

[cali]

24. He won't get them.

they won't grant cert. take it to the wherever.

[pnwmom]

32. Would you have predicted that the Supreme Court in 2000

would have decided that Bush should be President because there wasn't enough time left in which to finish counting the Florida votes?

[cali]

50. I did predict it. this is a very, very different situation.

they won't grant cert.

[Renegade08]

240. Concern trolling. Stop it. If you're so damn sure the Court's going to hear the case, let's bet.

If the Court decides to hear the case and rule that Obama is ineligible to be president, you pledge to never post at DU ever again. If they do rule Obama ineligible, I'll never post at DU again.

How 'bout it?

[Realityhack]

270. You need to reword that post. n/t

[Youphemism]

290. News Flash: George Washington's parents were not natural citizens...

I guess we really need to look at Washington's eligibility, because his parents were born in colonies rather that states, before the adoption of the US Constitution.

Clearly, that leaves him with loyalties divided between England and America.

How could we have let a foreigner like that take control of our nation? This is terrible.

[dsc]

334. He was exempted

He and anyone else who was a citizen at the time of the enactment of the Constitution were also eligable to be President.

[roguevalley]

323. toss McCain in too. He was born in Panama at a time when

giving citizenship to children of USA people born abroad was still murky. And, what about being born in Hawaii does this bint not understand? What a fiasco.

[DesertFlower]

2. WTF?

[crispini]

4. Wait, that dude is going after McCAIN TOO!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

That's hysterical.

[qwlauren35]

80. McCain was NOT Born in the US, but on a Military Base Abroad.

I want to say Costa Rica or Panama.

If you're going to make the case against Obama, you'd have to make the case against McCain.

Babies can be swapped...

[windbreeze]

232. McCain was born in Panama...

OFF base, in a civilian hospital, because there was NO naval hospital for him to be born in, at that time...the hospital did not come into being until years later....from what I've read...wb

[Touchdown]

293. He was born in The Canal Zone. A US Territory/Protectorate.

It didn't revert to Panamanian control until the early 80s. McCain was born on US controlled soil, and is thus an American. There was plenty of reasons to not vote for him, but this angle was always a dead end.

[windbreeze]

347. I don't recall saying a thing in my post

about how I was trying to justify not voting for him...the real point I was attempting to make I guess, is that IF there are questions about Obama being a natural born citizen, having been born in Hawaii, AFTER it became a state from an American mother...then perhaps there should also be questions about McCain and whether he is/was a natural born citizen...someone on this thread pointed out that he was born in Bermuda, ON BASE....from an American father and Portugese mother but still required naturalization...anyway...I don't like that this has made it to the SC...especially after the election fiasco in 2000......wb

[Touchdown]

348. That's not my point.

The point is is that this whole is he a citizen or isn't he is nothing but the rantings of some insane psychopaths who have another agenda, to keep a Democrat away from the White House at any cost. If it was Hillary, then it would be a Constitutional preclusion from a female serving as President, or war protester for Kerry, or internet inventors for Gore. Nothing matters to these people... Because their a bunch of batshit loons!

Playing their game with a tit-for-tat "well He did it too!" falls into the trap of us looking as insane as they are.

[windbreeze]

352. ok...well, I guess I see what you're saying..n/t

[jberryhill]

355. No he wasn't

The hospital at Coco Solo wasn't built until 1941. He was born in Colon, Panama - which is noted on his birth certificate, and which was NOT in the Canal Zone.

[tekisui]

331. He looks series, though!

[sabbat hunter]

5. such BS

if he is born in the US or US territories then he is a natural born citizen. Denofrio should be thrown out of court for even wasting the courts time.

[pnwmom]

6. Thomas doesn't think he's wasting the court's time. Thomas is submitting

this to the rest of the court, looking for 3 other justices to agree with him. Are you so sure he won't find them?

The problem is, no one is really sure what a "natural born citizen" is. It hasn't come up before.

[crispini]

10. This is actually starting to make me nervous, BUT,

the lawsuit names McCain, too, whose case is much worse, not even being born on US soil.

I don't quite see how the lawsuit can make the leap that because Obama's father was not a citizen, that he is not a "natural born" citizen.

[pnwmom]

13. I agree with you technically, but the problem is

that the Supreme Court justices are free to use whatever logic they want to to decide the case, should they take it up. From what I understand, the definition of "natural born citizen" has never been clear.

Remember the crazy logic they used in the 2000 decision? And that they even acknowledged how crazy it was, by saying that the case could never be used as precedent in any other situation.

[crispini]

29. If he goes for that, though, there would be a real problem.

I think most Americans can grasp the difference between "American at birth" vs. "American later in life" (naturalized). These very fine shades of meaning... like McCain not being born on American soil, or Obama not being born to TWO American parents ... it would be so completelyfuckinglutely out of left field that, honestly, the SCOTUS better think twice before they try to sell THAT bill of goods to all the American people who voted for Obama.

If they want to define "natural born citizen," have at it -- just as long as they define it the OBVIOUS way -- "American at birth."

[Mojorabbit]

208. It is nuanced

My dad was American and my mom Portuguese. I was born in Bermuda on a military base but I still had to be naturalized as a child when we moved back to the states before a judge. I wonder myself what a natural born citizen is. I have never considered myself anything but American and yet I have my naturalization papers that I assume means I was not a true citizen before I passed the oral test. The lawsuit is dumb but I am curious myself because of the circumstances of my own birth.

[crispini]

219. Yes, I read on another one of these threads

that children whose DADS are American, and born overseas, may have to be naturalized. The same is not true if it's your mother, for some reason.

Of course, none of this applies to Obama since he was born on American soil and his mom was a citizen. So it is silly.

[Hepburn]

267. Reason:

And this goes back to before there was DNA testing:

One can usually readily tell who the mother of a child is...who the father is, often can be a question.

[eridani]

269. The reason is obvious

Paternity used to be able to be disputed, but maternity can't be. Odds are pretty heavy that someone saw her push the kid out.

[Splinter Cell]

289. This....

Is a prime example of how John McCain is NOT a natural born citizen, a case I made on the forum a while back and got flamed for because some assholes in the senate declared he was.

[WolverineDG]

295. Actually, that was settled in 1790 by Congress

children born abroad of US parents are "natural born citizens" for the purpose of running for President.

dg

[Onlooker]

302. That's very interesting

If the SC were to rule that Obama was not a natural born citizen (which I don't think even this crazy court would do during this economic climate), it would create chaos for thousands of people whose own "naturalization" could then be brought into question.

[AntiFascist]

328. well then, that would be a great opportunity to impeach certain justices...

likely the more conservative ones, and then President Obama could have them replaced.

[monmouth]

30. FReepers are very excited about this, the hearing I believe will be

on 12/5. They refuse to acknowledge the BC from HI is legitimate. He lived in Indonesia for a while, so in their minds, he lost his citizenship or some stuff like that. This is making me nervous though, Thomas is an angry man, the thought that this young black man has risen so far so fast I think is a jealousy thing with Thomas. It needs to be shut down once and for all.

[PatGund]

209. Blame Philip J. Berg....

....and blame "Judah Benjamin" over at "TexasDarlin". They're the ones that claim Stanley Ann Dunham lost her US citizenship when she married Lolo Soetoro, and that Barack Obama lost his as a result.

Problem is, the section they cite in the Naturalization Act of 1940 and 1952 are for marriages before 1922.

[monmouth]

263. Then why in heaven's name has this thing reached the SC? I would

have thought it would be thrown out as a "nuisance" thing. I like your theory though and pray it holds.

[PatGund]

337. Berg's lawsuit.....

WAS tossed at the district court AND the 3rd circuit court of appeals. Berg appealed it to the US Supreme Court, where Justice Souter is reviewing it.

In the meantime, a whole batch of clone lawsuits, (including the Keyes lawsuit) are filed. In some cases, the lawsuits are word for word identical to Berg's suit.

Batch of idiots, the lot of them.

[TheBigotBasher]

339. Well the basis of these accusations disappeared.

Despite bigot site nothalfbigoted still running with the story, even Larry Johnson is nothalfdumb enough to be associated with the people that started this. A certain TechDude "who exposed" the birth certificate can be found to post at the Nazi StormFront site. Nothalfbigoted were not caring for a whole who they associated with. "An enemy of my enemy" etc. So they ran with the story.

This encouraged all the PUMA sites and Berg.

What a great starting point. So they are all palling around with bigots who hate REAL America.

[PatGund]

341. Which is funny....

Because TechDude ALSO hangs around far-right Zionist site "Atlas Shrugs" and has been vouched for by site blogger Pamela Geller.

And "Polarik" is now calling himself "Dr. Ron Polarik" on Free Republic. Funny thing is nobody can seem to find that name outside of Free Republic or other PUMA and Far Right sites.....

[ecstatic]

138. Well I'm reading the constitution now... think this clown is just

trying to open a door for Schwarzenegger. Here is what Article 2, Section 1 says:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A2Sec1

It appears to me as if that line might be suggesting that all citizens can run for president, which is different than what I thought was the case.

[WolverineDG]

167. You're reading the comma wrong

"citizen of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" is the "escape" clause. This allowed for anyone born in the colonies that became the US to be president; otherwise, no one would not have been eligible to be president until at least 1828.

dg

[jwirr]

14. Isn't Thomas also the child of a foreign parent and US mother?

What I hear that idiot who is bringing this case saying is that because his parents are from two different cultures then Obama has divided loyalties thus he his not a natural born citizen. The place of his birth is not being questioned - his loyalty is. I don't think that will fly even with most conservative justices.

[pnwmom]

19. It didn't fly with Souter, but Thomas appears to think it could be a valid

argument, or he wouldn't be submitting it to the rest of the Court. (After Souter refused to do so.)

I think the real question is, is this Supreme Court prepared to stick its fist into another Presidential election.

[jberryhill]

356. Unsupported Conclusion

Justices will refer cases that they think are invalid, to nail them down as invalid. Referring the case is not an indication that he believes the claim is valid.

[Raineyb]

84. Thomas is a moron as I've always said

What a load of crap! If Obama's not a natural born citizen because his father was born in Kenya then what the hell would that make someone like me? Neither of my parents were born in the U.S.

This is a completely partisan load of crap and it's too damn bad we can't impeach the son of a bitch.

Plus, Clarance Thomas doesn't really like black people especially Democratic ones.

Regards

[WolverineDG]

155. Thomas is an idiot

I'm sure even Scalia is shaking his head, muttering "Moron" under his breath.

But then, they all could have had an extra helping of Carnation Instant Stupid..... :crazy:

dg

[Abacus]

125. There is a pretty glaring logical fallacy here: using this rationale, almost none of us are citizens

All of our ancestors would have to have been born on US territory, otherwise, none of their offspring would be natural born US citizens either, and thus incapable of producing natural born citizens themselves, ad infinium.

[abumbyanyothername]

7. I hope the Supremes decide to rule on this.

Lessee, Thomas, Alito and Scalia on one side. Souter, Ginsberg, Stevens, Breyer on the other. Kennedy and Roberts in the middle.

Let's expose the idiots for who they are.

[pnwmom]

11. And what if they rule against Obama and McCain? I suppose that makes

Biden President. Would you be happy with that?

[abumbyanyothername]

12. They are not going to rule against Obama.

Jesus.

There are only three complete, total fucking idiots on the court.

Not five.

[pnwmom]

16. There were 5 in 2000.

I think there could be 5 still.

[abumbyanyothername]

42. One of the five is dead.

Bush v. Gore was a horrible decision, under horrible circumstances, with horrible consequences.

No such intensity is present here, and I actually do hope that Thomas and Scalia, especially get exposed for the partisan hacks that they are.

[pnwmom]

57. I'm not so confident. I would never have dreamed that the 2000 decision

would have occurred as it did.

[regnaD kciN]

234. One is dead, and one retired...

...and each has been replaced by an even more partisan Republican (Roberts and Alito instead of O'Connor and Rehnquist).

I could just see these clowns (or at least the four principal ones, getting Kennedy to sign on later) coming up with a novel "split" interpretation that Obama, being the son of a foreign father, isn't a "natural-born citizen," yet McCain, having two U.S. parents despite being born in Panama, is -- therefore ordering every state won by Obama to award its EVs to McCain as the highest-finishing "eligible" candidate.

[Tesha]

46. Kennedy wouldn't join in this shit; he learned the lesson of his vote in 2000. (NT)

[Bucky]

22. Is it Alito or Roberts who is not, in your quoteable words...

"...a complete, total fucking idiot"?   (But don't worry, I can guess the other two ;))

[abumbyanyothername]

26. Alito is an idiot

Roberts is close, but not quite.

[gravity]

107. You can't make a rational argument against Obama

The supreme court justices still have to make logical legal arguments for their cases.

I don't see how you can BS yourself around the fact the Obama has a birth certificate in this country.

[S_E_Fudd]

109. I suspect...

A combination of "devil's advocate" and a little bit of semi-irrational worry in the back or their mind...

Kind of still in disbelief an AA was elected and worried that something will happen to keep it from ultimately happening

[gravity]

115. They can't do shit to Obama

They are probably just going to argue about what it means to be a natural born citizen.

[tomp]

291. familiar with bush v. gore?

the sc does not have to be logical. they can obviously do whatever the fuck they want without reason.

otoh, annulling obama's election would mean civil war in the u.s. hey, they might go there. i put nothing past them. but the result of such a move is a foregone conclusion.

that thomas is willing to go there tells you all you need to know. and it is no accident it is the black justice who's doing this.

afaic, all bush appointees should be challeneged as illegal appointees by an illegal "president"....wait, they were approved with bipartisan support...silly me.

[gauguin57]

335. I don't think Biden becomes president unless the electors have already met.

VP becomes president if something happens to president-elect AFTER their election has been certified by vote of the Electoral College. not sure what happens if it happens before Electors meet.

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. Guess who this asshat is affiliated with?

http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1036&posts=2

AIP.... anybody remember those initials?

Is this some half assed delusional attempt to to get a "President Moosealini"?

[camera obscura]

9. Now what could Clarence Thomas possibly have against Obama/BIDEN....

... oh, right, he's been holding a grudge against Biden for a while. He even dedicates a portion of his memoirs to bashing the guy.

[Bucky]

25. Except that if the petitioner wins this lawsuit, Biden would be president.

Not that there's any chance that the it will go through. I mean, geeze, the legal argument is that he's the son of an immigrant and my therefor have divided loyalties? That's a little too flaky for even the knee jerkiest freeper.

[pnwmom]

28. Not that he's the son of an immigrant -- his father didn't immigrate here.

It's that he's the son of a Kenyan citizen -- and therefore a Kenyan citizen himself -- and therefore has "divided loyalties."

[Bucky]

45. Whatever. Lawyers have ways of distinguishing out silly wordplay.

[pnwmom]

58. It's not wordplay. There's a real difference between being an immigrant and

a visitor.

Obama's father was never more than a visitor. He retained his Kenyan citizenship, which then conferred citizenship on his son.

[WolverineDG]

170. Now you're playing logic like it's a bendy straw

Did Obama EVER claim Kenyan citizenship? If not, then :wtf: are you doing running down these bunny trails?

dg

[woolldog]

227. It doesn't matter what the status of Obama's father is.

Obama was born in the United States on US soil. That makes him a natural born citizen under the 14th amendment to the US constitution.

edit: When two illegal immigrants (a pregnant woman and her husband) come to the US from Mexico and have their baby on US soil, that baby is automatically a natural born US citizen. The suit has no merit.

You don't even know the procedural posture of the case. It's possible (and likely) that the issue being litigated on appeal isn't the question of fact as to whether Obama is a natural born citizen, but a question of law, namely, whether the plaintiff has "standing" to bring the suit. Big difference.

[DearAbby]

325. Kenya doesnt allow duel citizenships

I believe that was adopted into their constitution. :shrug:

[crispini]

327. It wasn't Kenya at the time, it was a British territory, which does.

My half brother's mother is British, and my half-brother has British citizenship even though he was not born there. He did have to ask for it, though.

[whistler162]

354. And there in lies the key...

"My half brother's mother is British, and my half-brother has British citizenship even though he was not born there. He did have to ask for it, though."

Your half brother had to ASK for the British citzenship he was allowed to claim by British law due to his mothers birth.

Unless they have a letter from President-Elect Obama making a claim for British citzenship then the idiots have no claim!

[whistler162]

113. If that was it then it would fail on history...

at the time President-Elect Obama's father was a subject of the British Empire since the indepedent country of Kenya wouldn't exist for 2+ years after President-Elect Obama's birth.

[CreekDog]

135. his father married an American Citizen

and stayed here for many years.

"only a visitor?" :wtf:

[jbnow]

218. Yes, the essay Obama wrote as a toddler clearly

shows how torn he felt from birth. He woke up every few hours as a newborn wondering what country he should pledge his allegiance to.

Everyone knows that country loyalty is mostly genetic but in some part comes from discussions with the foreign parent that take place in the first two years of life so this makes perfect sense.
Stupid.

If they really want to prove he is not a natural born citizen it is easy. Obama is on tape admitting it. This is not like the whitey tape...this one is widely availble and I have seen it. There were many credible witnesses in the room when he admitted it as well.
On October, 16 2008 at the Al Smith dinner Obama said

I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jorel to save the Planet Earth.

[stevenleser]

228. I don't think so. I think if Petitioner wins, Bush would still be interim POTUS

I am 80% sure of that

[regnaD kciN]

235. Not necessarily...

If a candidate gets disqualified over citizenship issues, his electoral votes don't automatically go to his running mate. They go to the highest-finishing eligible Presidential candidate. If they come up with a ruling that disqualifies Obama but finds in favor of McCain, the latter would automatically be awarded all 538 EVs. If the ruling disqualifies both of them, the votes would go to whoever finished third in the state balloting - probably Barr or Nader.

[CTLawGuy]

268. no, they would probably go to Biden

because the votes will be cast by PEOPLE (electors)--Democratic people who like Obama. The electors technically get to choose who they vote for. If Obama's not available they'll probably confer and agree to vote for Biden or Hillary or another Democrat.

[Lilyeye]

Really? I had no idea about this. What was his reason for hating Biden?

[camera obscura]

214. Here's an excerpt

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWUzZmMxMjgwOTg2MDZmZjAwNWM0YWFhMjQ4Y2M2N2E=

(Yeah, it's from the National Respew, but it's still his words. Oh, and their smug assurance that Biden on the ticket would mean an instant win for the GOP is pretty hilarious in retrospect.)

[Lilyeye]

191. Really? I had no idea about this. What was his reason for hating Biden?

[MattBaggins]

273. He blames Biden

for allowing Anita Hill to speak out against him.

When Thomas made his "modern day lynching of an uppity black man" comment; it was directed in large part at Biden.

[Barack_America]

15. And how many Americans could lose their citizenship as a result?

My grandmother would not have been a US citizen as both of her parents were born in Ireland.

My grandfather would not be a US citizen as, though born to American parents, he spent the first years of his life living in Canada (the US Army didn't seem to care when he enlisted to fight in WWII)

A number of my friends would not be US citizens as one or both of their parents were born abroad.

I find it interesting and sad that an African American justice, in particular, would suggest such a thing, considering what African Americans had to go through to be considered equal citizens.

[pnwmom]

17. No, it's the distinction that's being made between the meanings of

"citizen," "naturalized citizen," and "natural born citizen."

There's no danger of Obama or McCain losing their citizenship -- but there appears to be a question of whether being a President requires some sort of super-citizenship: that is, whatever "natural born citizen" means (which hasn't ever been determined in the courts.)

[Barack_America]

59. I don't understand how there could be anything other than "citizen" and "naturalized citizen"

It makes zero sense to me. You either were a citizen by birth or you were not and you became one later.

But hey, I guess that's why I'm not over at FR or one of the PUMA sites freaking out right now.

[davidinalameda]

204. what's the term that the right wingers use

anchor babies or something like that?

the children of illegals born in this country

but Obama's mother was an American citizen so the whole issue is moot

[Number23]

248. You are so wrong. What are you trying to achieve here?

but there appears to be a question of whether being a President requires some sort of super-citizenship

Super-citizenship? It appears that you actually believe that to be President of this country, you have to be something above and beyond a citizen, which is all that is required to run for President.

As has already been posted: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

There is no mention of "Super" citizenship in the U.S. constitution. Obama was born to an American citizen, that alone conveys him U.S. citizenship. And add to the fact that he was BORN ON AMERICAN SOIL and this renders this a non-issue.

I have no idea what you are trying to achieve with your posts. But in your efforts to try to cast doubt on Obama's citizenship and thus, his ability to take office in January, you show yourself to be uninformed, gullible and shady as all hell.

[lapfog_1]

257. Clearly the framers had three divisions of citizens in mind.

Those born in the United States and those who were "citizens" (read residents) of the US at the time that the Constitution was adopted and, finally, those who immigrated to the US AFTER the constitution was adopted.

The "natural born" part was to restrict the office to those born in the US (possibly even to two parents who were NOT citizens). The other part was to allow all of the "rebels" who signed the declaration of independence and fought the British to establish this country the right to become President, as many did.

Since everyone who was alive at the time of Adoption of the Constitution is now dead, we can safely ignore that whole clause.

So the other part is what is of concern... the definition of "natural born" citizen. There are two classes of citizens now alive, people born in the US (with a birth certificate or, possibly even affidavits from doctors, midwives, church registry) and those who are "naturalized" i.e. born elsewhere but immigrated to the US and, eventually, became citizens. The framers obviously wanted to prevent those not born in the US from serving as President, hence the "natural born citizen" clause. Obama and McCain both fit that definition since both were born in the "US" (even if McCain was born in a Panama hospital not in the canal zone, he is the son of serving US naval personnel who was under orders to be in the Panama Canal zone), but more important is that he and Obama both have birth certificates that identify them as US citizens. Citizens at birth.

It matters not what Obama's mother or father or step father were before or after his birth. It does NOT say that someone who was a "natural born citizen" has to even remain a citizen for their entire lives. If somehow it could be proven that Obama gave up his US citizenship when his mother remarried, even that would not preclude him (constitutionally) from serving as President. However, Obama did re-enter the US after having spent time in Indonesia, if he was not a citizen, there would be records of his entry as a resident alien or some other immigrant status. Since he has a US birth certificate... not such alien residency declaration was required.

[Number23]

338. If I could understand what your point is...

I would be happy to respond in kind.

There are two classes of citizens now alive, people born in the US (with a birth certificate or, possibly even affidavits from doctors, midwives, church registry) and those who are "naturalized" i.e. born elsewhere but immigrated to the US and, eventually, became citizens.

That's not even true. In addition to the types of citizens you mentioned, there are also citizens born to U.S. citizens but in foreign countries. They are also U.S. citizens. But your point appears moot anyway because citizenship is the only requirement to run for President, and Obama is a citizen.

Since everyone who was alive at the time of Adoption of the Constitution is now dead, we can safely ignore that whole clause.

I don't interpret that the same way. I interpret the Founders as saying from THIS POINT HENCE, meaning the adoption of the Constitution, anyone who is a citizen can run for President.

The framers obviously wanted to prevent those not born in the US from serving as President, hence the "natural born citizen" clause.

Again, moot. He was born in Hawaii.

However, Obama did re-enter the US after having spent time in Indonesia, if he was not a citizen, there would be records of his entry as a resident alien or some other immigrant status. Since he has a US birth certificate... not such alien residency declaration was required.

Again, I have no idea what your point is.

[Cronus Protagonist]

18. They're going to define two classes of citizen - watch it play out

Those who were born on US soil, and those who were naturalized after being born elsewhere.

[pnwmom]

21. It's more than that. This claimant says that even if Obama was born in Hawaii,

he still isn't eligible -- because his father's Kenyan citizenship would make Obama not a "natural born citizen."

The problem is that a Supreme Court has never defined the precise meaning of "natural born citizen." And an "activist" court -- like the one in 2000 -- could decide that now is the time to do so.

[cali]

55. absolutely wrong. please stop spreading misinformation.

[pnwmom]

67. What is wrong? Please stop making generalizations. n/t

[cali]

69. It is incorrect that Obama's father's Kenyan citizenship

precludes Obama from being a natural born citizen.

[pnwmom]

73. It is correct that that is the claim being made by the lawsuit, and it is correct

that -- after Souter rejected the lawsuit -- Thomas accepted it and has referred it to the full court. And it is correct that if three other justices agree that it deserves a hearing, then the case will be heard by the full Supreme Court.

I hope that your legal conclusion is correct -- but it is up to the SCOTUS to determine this, not either of us.

[ecstatic]

152. so what about orphans whose parents are unknown

Is their citizenship up in the air until someone claims them? :shrug: Just imagine if Obama did not know who his father was. Would there still be a question about Obama's citizenship? I think not... My sense is that each individual born on US soil is independent of their parents (unless born abroad, of course).

[S_E_Fudd]

157. If he was born on U.S. soil it wouldn't matter,,,nt

[WolverineDG]

171. Hawaii became a state in 1959; Obama born in Hawaii in 1961

He's a citizen of the US.

dg

[pnwmom]

190. That is NOT the issue of this case. The claim is that because Obama's father

is Kenyan, then Obama has dual citizenship, and is therefore not a "natural born citizen." (Regardless of his birthplace being in Hawaii.)

Now it is up to the Supreme Court to decide whether to schedule a hearing on this issue. Souter says no -- Thomas says yes. And if Thomas gets 3 more votes, there will be a hearing.

[WolverineDG]

194. AND WHERE DOES THE CONSTITUTION REFER TO THE CANDIDATE'S PARENTS???

for the third time..... :eyes:

dg

[pnwmom]

207. It refers to being a natural born citizen, without defining a natural born

citizen. And it doesn't the address the question of whether a natural born citizen can have dual citizenship at birth.

I read your wiki article, by the way, and it still didn't answer the question for me.

[WolverineDG]

288. :facepalm:

Sorry, if you can't understand the plain English of wiki, there's nothing ANYONE can say that will "convince" you. Thanks for your "concern."

:eyes:

dg

[cali]

255. No, Thomas has said nothing of the sort and you are still spreading

bullshit. You don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about. Obama does not have dual citizenship. He was born with dual U.S and British citizenship, but he holds only U.S. citizenship and has only held U.S. citizenship for decades.

There will be no hearing. BTW, another of these silly cases just got tossed in HI.

[TankLV]

206. Even if he was born in Hawaii in 1861, when Hawaii became a US territory and then a US state

ALL people born or residing in Hawaii AUTOMATICALLY became US Citizens.

Period.

I don't care if it once was the Kingdom of Hawaii.

If you're born in Hawaii, or a Hawaii citizen, before OR after annexation an statehood, you're AUTOMATICALLY a US Citizen.

[WinkyDink]

230. You are an IDIOT. Obama's MOTHER WAS A U.S. CITIZEN, and HE WAS BORN IN A U.S. STATE.

WHOEVER the HELL his FATHER was is IMMATERIAL.

"Natural-born" means PLACE, not "allegiance".

[regnaD kciN]

237. Stop the personal attacks...

The problem is that the term "natural-born citizen" has never been defined. You may think you know what it means, and I may think I know what it means, but the SCOTUS is the body that needs to make that determination. And, based on 2000, who knows what they'll decide.

If there's an IDIOT here, it isn't the poster you're replying to, it's the guy bringing the lawsuit (and, even more so, Clarence "Uncle" Thomas for accepting it).

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. As far as eligibility for President goes, that distinction already exists.

However, Obama was born in Hawaii, which was a state in 1961. So he IS a natural born citizen, regardless of his father's status. And his mother was a citizen, so that's moot anyway.

McCain on the other hand was born in Colon Panama. Colon is near the eastern end of the Panama Canal, but it was not IN the US leased "Canal Zone". So McCain was born on foreign soil, but to parents who were citizens. So McCain is actually NOT a natural born citizen, though I'm certain a court case against him would have been dismissed, had he been elected.

Admittedly, I don't know the birth circumstances of the Socialist candidate, so I won't comment on that one.

[Vattel]

41. I don't think that's right.

Being the child of American citizens is sufficient to make you a "natural born citizen" as that phrase was understood in the late 18th century. English law recognized as "natural born subjects" of the King of England anyone whose parents were subjects of the King.

[WeDidIt]

202. Calero was born in Nicaragua

and is not a U.S. citizen at all. He's never been a U.S. citizen.

[Fire1]

79. AA have known all along that Thomas has 'identity' issues.

[FVZA_Colonel]

110. At this point I think he qualifies as a real life "Uncle Ruckus:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Ruckus

[DeepBlueDem]

305. Clarence Thomas will never live up to Thurgood Marshalls legacy

Thurgood Marshall=a real Supreme court justice

[ecstatic]

123. I would

My mom is from another country. So I guess I'd be among those "fake citizens" who'd be thrown under the bus. :eyes:

[Boudica the Lyoness]

246. My two sons for a start! nt

[rasputin1952]

20. Thomas makes a box of rocks look like Mensa material...

If there is an iota of thruth to this story, I can picture Thomas taking it on...he really is that stupid.

[pnwmom]

23. He is that stupid. So the question is, will he find four other who

are willing to overturn another election?

[redstate_democrat]

33. How do we impeach Supreme Court justices?

Being dumb should be a justification for impeaching this guy off the court. What an asshole.

[abumbyanyothername]

60. House of Representatives, Trial in Senate

Starting in the House Committee on the Judiciary. House as a whole votes out Articles of Impeachment.

Trial held in Senate.

Not sure that being dumb as a box of rocks is grounds, however.

[rasputin1952]

70. Considering that another moron put him up for nomination...

Poppy bush, what did anyone expect. His confirmation hearings showed me the man was not up to snuff...What USSC Justice nominee would say, "I didn't pay any attention to the evidence presented"..for that matter, even a Justice of the Peace would listen to the charges and allegations in a case. The man is an idiot.

I've tried to drag my self through some of his case calls, fortunately, I have a brain and it told me to STOP! before it just shut down...;)

[BootinUp]

296. yes

it was a sad day when he sat down on the bench irregardless of ideology.

[onefreespiritedchick]

199. This is such absolute bullshit

Thomas needs to crawl back under his rock.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. The truth comes, not in the Obama part, but in the Socialist candidate. Calero is not a natural

born citizen.

[S_E_Fudd]

31. For the sake of argument...say the Court did rule Obama to be ineligible...

Can you imagine the riots that would ensue...

Would make 1968 look like a picnic...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

34. The GOP should stop now

[BootinUp]

304. where's your sense of adventure. lol

[political_Dem]

35. Isn't it ironic that Benedict Thomas is taking this up?

Thurogood Marshall ought to be rolling in his grave right now.

[Raineyb]

89. He must be exhausted

I'm sure Thurgood Marshall has been spinning since he's been in his grave.

Regards

[political_Dem]

100. This is going to be a part of Thomas' legacy whether he likes it or not.

What he did was extremely shameful, especially when the Hawaii Dept. of Health publicly declared Mr. Obama's birth certificate to be legitimate.

It makes you wonder whether GOP money and influence is prodding Mr. Thomas to mess things up before the Inauguration. I wouldn't be surprised.

[BadgerKid]

36. Such a non-issue for Obama: see Amendment 14

Article. II. - The Executive Branch Note

Section 1 - The President

...

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

...


Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights.


1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[pnwmom]

37. Souter agrees with you, apparently. Thomas doesn't, and that's why

after Souter rejected the case, Thomas accepted it and referred it to the rest of the Court. So the question is, will he find 3 others to agree to put this on the schedule? And if he does, then what?

[political_Dem]

43. It's the election of 2000 revisited again.

Again, here we have a situation in which the SCOTUS is deciding the final outcome of a Presidential election. This time, the case is very frivolous and should be thrown out of court.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

114. The difference is, in 2008, one candidate, Barack Obama, won decisively.

[Drunken Irishman]

181. Right. In 2000, Bush had already been unofficially declared the winner.

[crazylikafox]

303. Agreed. That's why the decision was accepted. Obama won in a landslide.

We're talking civil war if this election is overturned by the Supremes. Even they aren't that stupid.

[jbnow]

222. "...at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution"

Obama was not a citizen "at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution". He'd be over 200 years old now if he was.

That was to cover all of those setting up the government that were not born in the United States.

But doesn't matter. He is a natural born citizen

[WolverineDG]

315. actually it was to cover those who were born in the 13 colonies

before there was a United States. It disqualified Alexander Hamilton from ever becoming president because he was born in the Caribbean (I think). Otherwise, we couldn't have had a president until the late 1820's.

dg

[Trajan]

38. Nevermind

Oops .... Wrong section ....

[S_E_Fudd]

40. Inapplicable...Obama is not foreign born...

He was born on United States soil and is therefore a citizen at birth

[pnwmom]

56. That's not the issue. The claimant is saying that even if Obama was born in U.S.

that he is not a "natural born citizen" because Obama's father was Kenyan, which gives Obama dual citizenship. The claimant says that a "natural born citizen" precludes having "divided loyalties" or dual citizenship.

And the problem is that no Supreme Court has ever before decided exactly what "natural born citizen" means. And so it is up to the current SCOTUS to decide whether to make this determination now.

[S_E_Fudd]

72. That does not speak to the post I was responding too

However, there are decades of legal precedent defining anyone born ON American soil as being an American citizen. This is why children of undocumented aliens cannot be deported. Obama is not a dual citizen. He is not a dual citizen because his father was foreign born. He has never claimed dual citizenship, never lived in Kenya never worked in Kenya and does not have a Kenyan passport.

The 14th amendment is very explicit about what the criteria is for citizenship...which Obama meets.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Obama was born in the United states...end of argument


This is a bunch of whacko's who cannot stand the idea of a black man being President finding the one crazy guy on the court to take the case...it will not be accepted by the full court and will not be heard...

I don't suspect they really believe this will get anywhere and are simply tryingto rain on the parade...

[Lionel Mandrake]

198. Since when did citizenship depend on loyalty?

Oh oh. I just had an unloyal thought. Should my citizenship be revoked?

Thomas is a natural born idiot.

[Skittles]

256. my mum's a Brit, and I was born on an air force base in Illinois

I guess that makes me a foreigner :rofl:

[atimetocome]

357. To say the least it will be interesting to see if Thomas

can get others to take up the case.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. But Obama was *NOT* born abroad, he was born in the United States.

Hence that would not apply here.

[pnwmom]

62. The claim has nothing to do with where Obama was born.

The lawsuit says that even if Obama were born in Hawaii, he still wouldn't be a "natural born citizen." Why? Because, according to the claimant, Obama's father was a Kenyan citizen, therefore Obama has dual citizenship -- and that a "natural born citizen" would not have "divided loyalties" or a dual citizenship.

And, as it happens, the SCOTUS has never before determined exactly what a "natural born citizen" is.

Souter rejected this argument and rejected the lawsuit. Thomas, however, accepted the case and has distributed it to the rest of the court. If three others agree to hear the case, it will be scheduled for a hearing.

[S_E_Fudd]

82. A person has to choose to be a dual citizen...

The laws of Kenya (if they allowed it) are not enforceable on citizens of the U.S.

[WeDidIt]

That doesn't matter in this case

What matters is, what is the definition of "natural born citizen"? That question has never been answered in the history of the United States.

[S_E_Fudd]

94. A natural born citizen is anyone born a citizen...

It isn't difficult...if, as defined in the constitution. you are born a citizen you are natural born citizen...

You are getting hung up on the literary aspect of it...

If you are born a citizen you cannot be anything but a natural born citizen...

The original clause was designed to keep foreign citizens from coming to the US, waiting 3 years (at the time), getting citizenship and getting elected...

The 14th amendment clarified what it meant to be born a citizen...if you were born on U.S. soil you were born a citizen

Since Obama was born a citizen he is therefore a natural born citizen

[WeDidIt]

119. IF it isn't difficult, then cite the case law

You can't. It's never been decided in court. It is only implicit. It is not defined.

[S_E_Fudd]

128. The court has never defined the meaning of the term "the" either...

The meaning is clear....just because some whack jobs want to change the meaning of words in the english language doesn't mean the court rules on it...

Go read the original intent of the clause...it is very clear what the purpose was...

The 14th amendment made it explicit...

[WeDidIt]

130. The term "the" does not imply a higher degree of citizenship.

The term "natural born citizen" does.

It has never been defined, which is why I hope they take the case. It'll be clear once and for all.

Obama will be ruled a natural born citizen.

McCain will be ruled a natural born citizen even though he was not even born in a US Territory.

Calero will be ruled not to be a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen.

And any mish-mash of any argument questioning the status of anybody running for president will forever be addressed.

[S_E_Fudd]

Yes...it means NOT a foreigner...

That is the intent of the clause...

They won't take it because the argument of these whack jobs is that the meaning of the word natural is not clear...but it is very clear...

[WeDidIt]

140. That's your interpretation of the intent

That does not mean the court will rule that way.

I think they'll take the case so they can once and for all put all of the arguments to rest. Calero on the ballot opens the case up for being determined because it's very clear that Calero is not a natural born citizen. HE's not a citizen at all.

[S_E_Fudd]

142. No that is the founders explicit purpose for including the clause...

It is not my interpretation...

[WeDidIt]

145. Then cite the SCOTUS case that says that is the explicit purpose

You can't, ergo, it is not settled law.

[S_E_Fudd]

149. The constitution is settled law...

Otherwise you could argue every prepsition, noun and verb is not set in settled law...

Ridiculous

[WeDidIt]

156. Now you're blowing steam out of your ass.

You might want to look into the history of cases brought before the SCOTUS. Every last one of them requires the SCOTUS to define some nuance contained within the constitution. Your assertion is absurd on its face.

[S_E_Fudd]

159. You assertion is ridiculous in the extreme...you don't need case law to know the meaning of the word

'Natural'

You need websters dictionary...

[WeDidIt]

169. Webster's Dictionary is meaningless where the law is concerned

Black's LAw Dictionary differs from Webster on many many many words.

[martymar64]

300. Then please cite the Black's definition of "natural"

Since you mentioned Black's, then what does it say about any of the words used in the phrase "natural born citizen"?

[WolverineDG]

175. It's never been litigated because

it really is that simple. :eyes:

dg

[Boudica the Lyoness]

245. Yes,

I can be a dual citizen as far as Britain is concerned but the US would not recognize it. I have been told the US would only recognize me as a US citizen if I became a US citizen. But the bloke at the British embassy told me I'd always be British and being a US citizen wouldn't change that fact. He said I should cross my fingers behind my back when and if I became a US citizen. lol.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

127. I was responding to a poster who had quoted a specific article pertaining only to those born abroad

That is what would not apply here.

[WolverineDG]

173. Oh this is getting stupid fast

the Constitution doesn't say jack about the candidate's PARENTS, just references the candidate him/herself.

:banghead:

dg

[EFerrari]

47. Obama was born on US soil. Please, don't feed the freaks.

[Trajan]

54. Humble pie ....

Is usually enjoyed alone ....

Winks ....

I was way off ....

[pnwmom]

63. This case is NOT about where he was born. Please read post 62.

It's about whether his father's Kenyan citizenship means Obama is not a "natural born citizen" due to his "divided loyalties."

[CreekDog]

150. wrong: Obama Senior was a British Subject at the time of Obama's birth

and we know what the lawsuit says, that doesn't matter because Obama was born in the US.

one statute after the constitution does not determine what the clearly stated constitutional language meant at the time of ratification.

[EFerrari]

229. That's a pretty silly argument, wouldn't you agree?

Obama's father didn't even raise him.

[woolldog]

231. It is about where he's born.

A natural born citizen is someone who is born a citizen. In Obama's case, being born on US soil makes him a citizen, via the 14th amendment. That makes him a natural born citizen. The circumstances of his parents and "divided loyalties" and all that other nonsense is nonsense. It doesn't matter. Even if both his parents were foreigners, he would STILL be a natural born citizen. Trust me, I'm a lawyer.

[Orangepeel]

48. He wasn't born abroad n/t

[Trajan]

53. Yes ... I realized it, finally .... Sorry

Chuckles .... I was carefully on the wrong track ....

Sorry

[pnwmom]

64. This case is NOT about where Obama was born, it's about his father's Kenyan

citizenship, and whether that makes Obama ineligible for the Presidency.

Please see post 62 above.

[Orangepeel]

68. but Trajan's post was, which is why he/she corrected it.

[CreekDog]

154. pnw: you are getting on my nerves, if you say "it's about his father's Kenyan citizenship" again

i'm going to think you are trying to make it a talking point.

stop it.

[Number23]

249. She's been quite clear about where she stands on the issue

And it clearly is not on Obama's side....

[WolverineDG]

292. And the fact that she keeps repeating "Kenyan citizenship"

when someone else pointed out that in 1961 there was no Kenya, just a commonwealth of the UK & his father was therefore a British citizen at the time Obama was born....

dg

[CreekDog]

297. she's also repeated the phrase "split loyalties"

:wtf:

and she almost never responds to valid critiques of her statements and outright errors she's made.

[WolverineDG]

299. Because the facts of the law don't match what she wants them to be

In my office, those folks are quickly shown the door....

dg

[AllentownJake]

51. Anyone born in the United States is a Naturual Born Citizen

Regardless of what your parents citizenship status is. This only applies if Obama was born outside the United States.

[pnwmom]

65. That is not actually clear. The term "natural born citizen" has never

been clearly defined. An activist Court could decide that now is the time to do so.

[S_E_Fudd]

76. The 14th Amendment defines it...

You are right...whackos on the court can do what they like...but if they are even the tiniest bit concerned about the constitution it has no merit

Obama is a citizen as defined in the constitution...

[pnwmom]

90. This is what the lawsuit says about the 14th amendment:

“That being said, petitioner regretfully submits that since candidate Obama was born to a Kenyan father, he also is not eligible to the office of president since he is not a ‘natural born citizen’ by the Constitution.”

In conclusion Denofrio states had the legislature intended to grant “natural born citizen” status to all who were born on U.S. soil, the 14th Amendment would contain the words “natural born citizen.”

He said, “And so this proposition leads to the logical conclusion that a natural born citizen is a citizen born in the United States to parents, neither of which is an alien. Having an alien parent would tie such person at birth to the possibility of other loyalties and laws. And such a person, even if he is as loyal and devoted to this country as Senators Obama and McCain have proven to be, is not eligible to hold the office of President of the United States.”

[S_E_Fudd]

96. Sophistry...

Trying to stir the pot.(not you, them) "Natural born citizen" is a literary construction and does not convey special meaning to the term citizen.

[blogslut]

139. Woodrow Wilson's mother was born in England

n/t

[S_E_Fudd]

143. Irrelevent...

Wilson was born on American soil....

[blogslut]

147. So was Obama

n/t

[S_E_Fudd]

153. And therefore a natural born citizen...nt

[blogslut]

163. Tell it to that boneheaded psycho, Denofrio

I'm just making a point to the OP.

[Justice]

252. thank you - this proves the point - parent's birthplace irrevelant if child born in US

[treestar]

243. This country does not do "corruption of blood."

That is why the children of illegal aliens, born on US soil, are citizens as much as anyone else. We do not do anything legal, allow anything to have legal effect in this country, due to a status of one's parents or anyone else one is associated with. It is the very idea on which this country was founded. Even the current Supreme court cannot get away with that, no matter how badly they may emotionally want Obama not to be President. There are some things that cannot be rationalized away. That is why even this court did not uphold *'s claims about Presidential powers when it came to Gitmo.

this case is frivolous, and even this court will have to admit that.

[WolverineDG]

298. aka Bills of Attainder

a specific Constitutional no-no.

dg

[pnwmom]

91. delete (dupe)

[pnwmom]

98. Were they the "tiniest bit concerned about the Constitution" in 2000?

When they declared that the case they decided would set no legal precedent?

[S_E_Fudd]

101. That is an entirely different argument...

If your argument is that a powerful faction of the court determined to prevent a black man from being President can ignore the constitution and precedent...well I suppose they could...

However, I am not quite that cynical

The court won't hear it

[Grateful for Hope]

104. I agree

that this is an entirely different argument, and, that the court won't hear it. It is ironic that President-Elect Obama taught Constitutional Law himself -- I hardly think that he would have even considered running for president if there were any doubt whatsoever in his mind about his citizenship status.

[CreekDog]

165. they used the 14th amendment from the constitution to do so

they don't have anything else in the constitution to base such a landmark decision upon in this case.

[CreekDog]

162. it is fucking clear in the language of the constitution?

jeez, are you fucking clerking for Clarence Thomas?

you can understand this particular case all you want, but you don't have to fucking shill for it. :banghead:

(anyone else here understand my frustration?)

[WolverineDG]

178. I do

:banghead:

dg

[WolverineDG]

177. The Constitution refers ONLY to the CANDIDATE

NOT the CANDIDATE'S PARENTS. Yes, boys & girls, it really is that simple.

dg

[treestar]

242. Exactly

Even the children of illegal aliens! Which the freepers are always whining about!

Obama's father might even have been here legally, probably was, as a student!

It would be ridiculous to claim those born on US soil are not "natural born citizens" just because one of their parents was not - it would affect millions of people, too.

This is a frivolous suit. There is a court rule, Rule 11, that sanctions those who bring frivolous suits. Normally I dont' like that rule, but as we have it, it applies here.

[S_E_Fudd]

39. Neither Obama or McCain received a single vote November 4th...

We don't vote for President in this country, we vote for the people who vote for President...

Even if by some unholy miracle the court actually ruled Obama was ineligible to be President (which won't happen), I don't see how they invalidate ballots...electors are free to vote for whom they please

[iamthebandfanman]

one would assume itd just mean hello president biden ;) n/t

[WolverineDG]

186. And if you think LynneSin is over the moon right now.... nt

[crispini]

182. Electors are not really free to vote for whom they please.

They're sworn to uphold their party's candidate. If they voted for whoever they pleased there could certainly be an unholy mess.

[FlaGranny]

271. Interestingly, if they did

invalidate Obama's election, they actually would be invalidating every vote of every person born in the U.S. who had a "foreign" parent or parents. A great many U.S. citizens would suddenly become "aliens" and lose their voting rights. The whole premise is completely ridiculous.

[jenmito]

49. Obama said publicly that HE wouldn't have chosen Thomas to be on the S.C. Coincidence

that now he takes this case? I don't think so.

[pnwmom]

66. You're right. Donofrio purposely chose Thomas for this case. n/t

[jenmito]

71. I have no doubt that's the ONLY reason Thomas is pretending this may have merit. n/t

[WeDidIt]

61. I Bet They Take The Case, Here's Why

It will put to rest once and for all the definition of "natural born citizen".

Barack Obama will be ruled a natural born citizen.

John McCain will be ruled a natural born citizen.

Roger Calero will be ruled not to be a natural born citizen.

[BrklynLiberal]

75. And how many thousands of taxpayers' dollars will be wasted on this crap??

[WeDidIt]

78. Same questions came up when Barry Goldwater ran

Barry Goldwater was not born in the United States. He was born in Arizona while it was a territory.

"Natural born citizen" has never been defined. There have only been assumptions as to what it means. This would give the court an opportunity to define once and for all what the term actually means under the law.

[S_E_Fudd]

81. The 14th amendment was passed for this purpose...

An argument was made since slaves were not born citizens of the US the constitution and state law did not apply to them...the 14th amendment was designed to explicity define citizenship...

It applied to Barry Goldwater too..his parents were citizens in any case...

[WeDidIt]

86. Citizenship, yes, but NOT "Natural Born Citizen"

We know what a citizen is, hell Arnold Swarzenegger is a citizen. Is Arnold Swarzenegger a "natural born citizen"? I think not, though the term has never been defined within the context of a legal decision.

So no, the 14th amendement does not answer this question.

[S_E_Fudd]

87. Arnold Schwarzenegger was not born a citizen of the U.S....

That is the distinction...

The 14th amendment clearly states anyone born on U.S. soil is born a citizen...

[WeDidIt]

92. Was Barry Goldwater?

No, BarryGoldwater was not born in the United States. He was born in a United States territory.

If somebody was born in Puerto Rico or Guam, are they eligible to run for president?

Nobody has ever defined "natural born citizen" in the history of the United States.

[S_E_Fudd]

97. Yes...his parents were citizens of the U.S....

And therefore Goldwater was as well...

[WeDidIt]

118. No, they weren't

Under the 14th amendment, Goldwater's parents were not citizens of the United States. They were citizens of a United States territory. Not the same thing, especially not when Goldwater was born.

[S_E_Fudd]

126. Barry Goldwater's father was born in California...

eom

[S_E_Fudd]

102. If someone was born in Puerto Rico to American parents...

Yes they would be eligible...

As to whether a person born in Puerto Rico to pPuerto Rican parents could be Presidnet. There is a better argument that that is allowed than there is for the notion that Obama is ineligible...

However I suspect since Puerto Rican citizens are not allowed a vote for President it would not be allowed

[WeDidIt]

122. It's precisely the same as the Goldwater case

Goldwater was born in the Arizona Territory to Arizona citizens. His parents were not US citizens.

Was Goldwater a "natural born citizen"?

I dunno. There is no case law to support or deny the argument.

[S_E_Fudd]

129. Barry Goldwaters father was born in California...

There was a citizen...

[WolverineDG]

193. Puerto Ricans are US citizens

as per Congress in 1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico#Political_status

dg

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

346. We are all born as US citizens and can vote for president if we reside in any of the 50 states.

We just can't do it directly from the island although I think you can vote absentee if you're not at you state of residence when the election takes place (I'm not sure).

[Sebastian Doyle]

174. Arizona was US soil at the time. Austria is not and never has been

So Goldwater was eligible. Herr Gropenator is not.

[WolverineDG]

189. Anyone born in a US territory is a citizen nt

[pnwmom]

95. But the 14th amendment doesn't define "natural born citizen."

And no other Supreme Court has either.

[S_E_Fudd]

99. Again you are caught up in a literary construction...

"Natural born citizen" does not convey special meaning to the term. It simply means you are born a citizen The founders wanted to be sure only those born citizens could be elected President, trying to keep a powerful foreigner from gaining the Presidency.

Obama was born a citizen and is therefore a natural born citizen...

[WeDidIt]

120. Actually, yes it does.

IT infers a higher level of citizenship than simply "citizen", though there is no case law to define precisely what the term means.

[S_E_Fudd]

133. No it doesn't...

Find me a single piece of written material by the founders indicating so. It was a literary construction designed to prevent FOREIGN citizens from coming to the U.S. waiting a couple years and getting elected President. They remembered well the intermingling of rulers among the countries of europe, and were keen to avoid any entanglement in european affairs. That was the explicit purpose of the clause. The 14th amendment made it plain what was required for someone to be born a citizen

[WeDidIt]

148. IF you're so sure of your postion, cite the case law agreeing with you. n/t

[S_E_Fudd]

151. Ridiculous...

There is no case law defining the meaning of commonly used words...

argument for argument sake

[WeDidIt]

158. Therefore it is not settled law.

The quesiton ahs been raised in the past. Arguments have been made. The sCOTUS has never made any determination. Thus, it is not settled law.

[S_E_Fudd]

161. Not taking a case has the same force as taking one...

They won't take a case depending on changing the meaning of a word...

[WeDidIt]

168. This is true. No case of this nature has ever been introduced.

I think they'll issue a per curiam decision without hearing any testimony that will declare both Obama and McCain to be natrual born citizens while Calero is ineligible to be president.

[pnwmom]

185. That is yet to be seen. Thomas only needs 3 other votes to take the case. n/t

[pnwmom]

184. That is exactly the point. When there is no settled case law, the Supreme Court

is free to make case law

They're always free to do that anyway.

And if they decide to define "natural born citizen" as Denofrio suggests, then there is no appeal.

[jbnow]

225. Of course it DOES mean more than "citizen"

because Arnold and Jennifer Granholm are citizens but they can't run for or become president because they were not born here and their parents were not US citizens.

[gravity]

88. That sounds reasonable

Obama's is a no brainer, but John McCain's case brings up some interesting arguments.

[kskiska]

247. Jonathan Turley's article on McCain's case

includes this among other interesting items:

(snip)

The standard is so clear that it (14th Amendment) has barred some deserving candidates. Others like Chester A. Arthur, the 21st president, was rumored to have been born in Canada but claimed that he was born in Vermont. Notably, McCain’s defense of his eligibility seems to differ a bit from Ted Olson’s theory. Click here.

A strong argument can be made that the Framers considered natural born to refer to a birth on U.S. soil. Indeed, Alexander Hamilton was viewed as ineligible due to his birth in the West Indies. It has often been suggested that the provision was written in part to block Hamilton by his detractors — though this may be apocryphal. It seems more likely that people like Jay were concerned with a preference among some to have a King, including some foreign princes who might rule the nation. Moreover, Hamilton was a citizen of the United States at the time of the signing of the Constitution.

more…
http://jonathanturley.org/2008/02/28/does-john-mccain-have-an-alexander-hamilton-problem-a-constitutional-challenge-may-loom-over-mccains-eligibility-for-president/

[Realityhack]

272. I suspect this is what they are going for.

I wonder if burying the issue is the entire reason for raising it at all.

[malik flavors]

74. Anybody that's actually worried about this actually negatively effecting Obama is nuts

There's no way on God's green Earth this is going to change anything.

Just forget you ever even saw this thread.

[KayLaw]

77. Sure, I'll forget it.

But what's wrong with these people that they resist democracy so? Obama won the popular vote and the electoral votes. Get over it! It's as though they hate America and the Constitution. It's just wrong.

[Phx_Dem]

326. No kidding. People have completely lost their minds if they think

this will have any affect whatsoever on Obama's presidency. Even the wingnuts on the Supreme Court are not that fucking insane. The Freepers are, of course, but that's to be expected.

This is absolutely laughable.

[Born_A_Truman]

83. It is garbage

And I hope Thomas gets laughed out of the SCOTUS.

[Monk06]

85. Does anyone seriously think that the SC is going to consider nullifying the election

and disqualifying both the Republican and Democratic
candidates from running again, just to satisfy this
nose picking lawyer turned professional poker player's
grandstanding.

I ain't going to happen. If it did I think the entire
SC would be fired in a bench clearing constitutional
crisis the likes of which has not been seen since the
Civil War.

[jenmito]

93. Obama said publicly that HE wouldn't have chosen Thomas to be on the S.C. That's the ONLY

reason he took the case.

[RagAss]

117. ....not only that...but I'll get pissed !

[WePurrsevere]

103. Obama would not be the 1st President with a foreign-born parent...

http://tinyurl.com/5jyvy2

Only six other U.S. presidents had a foreign-born parent. Mr. Obama will be the first in nearly ninety years, since President Herbert Hoover was inaugurated in 1929.

Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) is the only president born of two immigrants, both Irish. Presidents with one immigrant parent are Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809), whose mother was born in England, James Buchanan (1857-1861) and Chester Arthur (1881-1885), both of whom had Irish fathers, and Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) and Herbert Hoover (1929-1933), whose mothers were born respectively in England and Canada.

They were all born on US soil just as Obama was. If SCOTUS were to say both parents had to be born in the USA wouldn't they then be basically saying that those 6 Presidents weren't legally President.

Although I wouldn't put anything past some of the SCOTUS justices, I would truly hope they're not quite that crazy and stupid to buy into this nonsense. I tend to think Thomas is allowing his personal feelings about Obama and Biden taint the infinitesimal fraction of logic left in his one brain cell.

[S_E_Fudd]

105. Without knowing the details...

Assuming the parents of those Presidents were citizens of the U.S. at the time their sons were born, that is not the argument these whackos are making. They are arguing since Obama's father was not a citizen when Obama was born he is therefore not a "natural born citizen'

A crock of course since the constitution clearly states anyone born on American soil to be born a citizen

[Mz Pip]

108. So what are all

the kids of Mexican illegals who are born in the US? We treat them as citizens regardless of their parents' citizenship, legal or otherwise.

[S_E_Fudd]

112. Yes they were born on U.S. soil...

So are born citizens...

The same applies to the PResidents listed...

I was just saying what the whacko argument was...it revolves around Obama;'s father not being American.

I suspect they would also say that kids of undocumented aliens would be ineligible as well

[WeDidIt]

124. HEre's a better question, though

Though born in other nations, were these six former presidents parent citizens of the US when they were born?

In Jackson's case the answer would be no as he was born before there was a United States, however, Article II of the constitution is clear as to his eligibility even though he was not himself a "natural born citizen" (you cannot be a "natural born citizen" of a nation that did not exist when you were born). Same goes for JEfferson.

The other four are interesting questions and, if these parents were not citizens when they were born, would be precedent to throw out the argument.

[S_E_Fudd]

134. Buchanan, Arthur and Wilson were born on American soil...

Doesn't matter the citizenship status or their parents...

[WeDidIt]

136. Does it or does it not?

Born citizen is clear.

NAtural born citizen, not as clear and arguments can be made. Though I'd agree with you, the court has never made a determination.

[S_E_Fudd]

141. Natural means born in a particular state...

AS in "produced or existing in nature; not artificial or manufactured"

In other words born a citizen. Not born a foreigner and then become a "manufactured" citizen...

The 14th amendment clearly defines what it is to be born a citizen...

Therefore, Obama is a natural born citizen...

The court is not going to take a case that is hinged on a redefinition of the word natural

[WeDidIt]

144. That's your interpretation

The court has never made a determination and the SCOTUS is the final authority on what "natural born citizen" means.

I think they will take the case because one out of three candidates named in the suit is clearly not a natural born citizen since he is not a citizen at all. I further believe the court will rule the other two to be natural born ctizens even though one was not born in any state or territory of the United States.

[S_E_Fudd]

146. No...that is the meaning of the word...

It is not my interpretation...and the founders reasons for inserting the clause are also explicitly stated...

They will not take a case that hinges on a redefinition of a word with a commonly understood meaning.

[WeDidIt]

160. You might want to check out Black's Law Dictionary some time

There are a lot of words you think you know the definition of that have a completely different legal definition than you ever imagined.

[BklnDem75]

253. All persons born or naturalized in the United States...

Why is this an argument? The constitution doesn't say 'natural born.' It says born 'or' naturalized. Even if there was case about the meaning of natural, it doesn't change the fact that Obama was born in the US.

[WeDidIt]

275. Article II Section 1

<snip>

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

<snip>

[BklnDem75]

307. Ok. Thanks for pointing out the natural part, but...

anyone reading that will clearly see 'or a citizen of the United States.' Natural doesn't need to be defined if you were born here.


US CODE: Title 8,1401. - Nationals and citizens of United States at birth


The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person

(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or

(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

[crispini]

310. Dude, the "or a citizen of the united states" goes with the NEXT part

which means that people who were citizens at the time of the constitution would be eligible regardless of whether or not they are natural born.

It doesn't go with the FIRST part as you seem to think.

[WeDidIt]

312. That's the definition of "citizen"

"natural born citizen" has only an implied definition. There is no case law to support that implied definition.

[Beartracks]

106. "split and competing loyalties"?

Wow -- so "natural born-ness" is supposed to be in one's DNA, but apparently homosexuality is not? :eyes:

[Iwillnevergiveup]

111. All's I know is

I met a young woman this week who is a citizen of Mexico, but has travelled to the U.S. for the birth of her second child due in January for the express purpose of that child being a natural born U.S. citizen. She did the same with her first child.

Ever since I watched the Scalia interview on "60 Minutes" some months ago, I've had a feeling that he may step down within the Obama administation (8 years, natch). We're gonna be stuck with Clarabelle for awhile, but if Obama could replace Scalia, that would be reeeeeeal good.

Even if this Dec. 5 event occurs, I believe it will be a non-starter.

[WeDidIt]

166. I think they'll issue a per curiam decision

It will declare both Obama and McCain NAtural Born citizens and Calero to not be eligible to be president.

[Jim Lane]

306. I doubt they'll do even that, given the procedural posture

McCain's eligibility is moot because there's no reason to believe he'd be chosen by the Electoral College. Calero's eligibility is even more clearly moot because there's no reason to believe any Elector will vote for him.

My prediction is that they'll just deny cert.

I understand the argument that, even though the challenge to Obama has no legal merit, an unprincipled conservative majority might hypocritically adopt Donofrio's theory just because they want to screw Obama. The best counterargument is that doing so wouldn't elect McCain; it would simply put Biden in office. Not even this Supreme Court would dare try to un-elect the Electors chosen by the voters. If those Electors were ordered not to vote for Obama, they'd vote for Biden. If, after they vote for Obama, the Supreme Court were to order that Obama is ineligible, then there would be a vacancy in the office of President on January 20, a vacancy that would be filled by the duly elected Vice President (Biden).

Alternatively, the Congress, when it counts the votes of the Electors, could take note of the Court's decision and respectfully disagree with it, and declare Obama elected anyway. There is settled law holding that the Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction to resolve political questions. Given that the counting of the electoral votes is committed to Congress, there's a strong argument that Congress, not the Court, has the final say over such related matters as eligibility.

So, even if we assume that five Justices would be willing to upend the Constitution and destroy their own reputations in order to maintain Republican rule, they would face the sobering fact that such an attempted coup would almost certainly fail. A Democrat would take over anyway. The right-wingers on the Court won't want to tilt at that windmill. Knowing that there are not five votes to attempt the coup, they won't even want the case to come up, which is why I predict there won't be even the four votes needed to grant cert.

[immoderate]

308. Bingo! They will not grant cert.

There is certainly ample precedent to determine who is a "natural born citizen." (Think a citizen that does not have to be naturalized. That is anyone born on US soil, or born to US citizens anywhere.) To try to overturn this election would be seen as a judicial coup. If they fail, There will be hell to pay.

Only an idiot like Thomas would waste time on this bullshit. I only know one Republican that would give this a second thought, but he's a dittohead, and a brainless twit.

--IMM

[WeDidIt]

314. But the case involves the NJ SOS placing ineligible names on the ballot

I'd say the reason Thomas took the case into conference was precisely because the case was against the NJ SOS for placing ineligible candidates for the presidency on the ballot. Roger Calero is clearly ineligible to be president since he isn't even a US citizen, let alone a "natural born citizen".

For that reason, I do believe he'll get the four votes needed to grant cert.

[Jim Lane]

319. No one in New Jersey voted for anyone ineligible. They voted for Electors, not for Calero.

It's true that some of the would-be Electors from New Jersey had announced themselves as pledged to Calero. So what? That amounted to a promise that, if chosen as Electors, they would waste their votes on an ineligible candidate. If they had indeed been chosen, perhaps they would have become and voted for someone eligible, or perhaps they would indeed have wasted their votes. I see no Constitutional violation either way. The violation would be if Calero were inaugurated, not if someone voted for him.

Of course, there isn't much precedent here. The closest analogy I could think of was the 1912 election. The Republican candidate for Vice President, James Sherman, died less than two weeks before the election. The Electors from states won by the Republican ticket voted instead for Nicholas Murray Butler, the replacement designated by the Republican National Committee. If Sherman's name remained on any ballots that couldn't be reprinted in time, was that a violation of the Constitution, because Sherman was no longer an eligible candidate? I'd say no, there was no violation.

[crispini]

329. Interesting point, because the Electors are not on the ballot.

One has to wonder, can you be said to have been voting for an elector if you don't even know who the elector is? :crazy:

[Catherine Vincent]

116. Justice Clarence Thomas?

Speaking of House Negro... :eyes:

[RollWithIt]

121. Link to Conservative Website.... Doesn't appear to be factual....

My way of saying it's a bullshit story. It's completely made up.

[pnwmom]

188. No, it's not. Check the Supreme Court docket. It's on there.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm

[RollWithIt]

213. Docket doesn't mean anything.....

That's just cases filed. That website is bullshit. They make it sound like Thomas is actively pushing the case. The case is just filed. No justice has publicly pushed it. It's one of thousands and is nothing more than a fundraising tool for right wing wackjobs. It's a joke.

[pnwmom]

221. Souter rejected the case. Thomas didn't.

He made the decision to distribute the case to the other justices to consider.

[rasputin1952]

131. I think we can all agree that Clarence Thomas is an idiot...

(and, in this case, the proverbial "activist judge" that the RW so despises).

However, all things considered, Obama's father had an extremely peripheral role with the up-bringing of Obama. There is NO evidence that Obama ever claimed dual citizenship; the argument is one made by an insane man, and accepted by a remarkably dull witted USSC Justice. This entire thing is little more than a facade, a joke and a sham. Thomas is a complete idiot to even look at this, and the USSC will not hear the case. Thomas might get Scalia to look at this, but I don't think Scalia is nearly as stupid as Thomas, (I could be wrong, Scalia is an ideologue, and he can be as crazy as a loon).

The only place this will get traction is here on DU...and maybe support over at Free Republic, but that is an asylum anyway.

This will blow over just as quickly as it came up...and the # of lawyers that would argue this in Obama's favor, many of them serious Constitutional scholars would eviscerate any argument Deofrio or anyone else that brought this into the USSC.

I'm willing to bet this will go nowhere.

[Unsane]

137. Obama met his father all of one time--at an American airport.

[rasputin1952]

172. Yes...and I've always found that rather sad...

:(

[pnwmom]

192. It is the ideologues I worry about -- I agree with you that no one's as stupid

as Thomas.

[rasputin1952]

197. Yes...but the USSC has not done anything too crazy...

and with fortune, they won't in the near future.

Obama will get one, perhaps 2 seata on the USSC, and plenty in the Lower Courts...:woohoo:

[rasputin1952]

132. Sorry dupe post...

:blush:

[ecstatic]

164. I bet this guy is stirring some shit to try to get Schwarzenegger eligible

to run one day. He wants an all out war on the definitions of citizenship.

[Thrill]

176. This is BS. No major news has it

[wurlwynd]

180. Not BS

From SCOTUS Docket website:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm

[pnwmom]

187. Thank you, wurlwynd. And welcome to DU! n/t

[crimsonblue]

179. Americans can have dual citizenship

Even if Obama were a citizen of Kenya too, he did not denounce his American Citizenship by age 21, therefore, he automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship. Problem solved. A natural born US citizen may have other citizenship and keep their natural born status.

[Thrill]

183. The person who filed that needs to get laid.

BADLY

[Warren DeMontague]

195. Supreme Court Justices CAN be impeached, you know.

Just sayin'.

[onefreespiritedchick]

196. What????

I'm floored :mad:

[varelse]

200. Doesn't his mother count at all?

She was born a citizen of the US. Was a citizen when she gave birth. On US territory. Why exactly does the father's alleged citizenship take precendence over the mother's?

[FrenchieCat]

201. Wow.....

Barack Obama is a natural born citizen. period.

why this discussion is even being given this much attention
is fucked up.

[TankLV]

211. It's all these idiots have left - it's a natural slide to the bottom of the garbage heap...

It started when the repukes decided not to argue the merits of each candidate, but resort to slime and name calling.

It's the natural progression of the mentally hopeless failure that the repuke party is...

[elleng]

203. Read all about it, from Yale:

http://yalelawjournal.org/images/pdfs/pryor_note.pdf

[HughMoran]

216. IV. CONCLUSION

If the eligibility of a presidential candidate born outside the territorial United States were challenged under the natural-born citizen clause today,
the outcome, based on traditional methods of approaching the clause, would be unpredictable and unsatisfactory. This Note's approach removes the confusion caused by Supreme Court dicta asserting that there are only two classes of citizens, native-born and naturalized. As historical and textual
analysis has shown, a citizen may be both "naturalized" and "natural born." Under the naturalized born approach, any person with a right to American citizenship under the Constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States at the time of his or her birth is a natural-born citizen for purposes of presidential eligibility.

[ShadowLiberal]

205. Now even a birht certificate isn't enough for neocons to say Obama's eligible to be president

Claiming that just because Obama's dad was a foreigner when his Mom was born in America and Obama was born in America is the stupidest argument against Obama being a 'natural born citizen' I've ever heard (well, ok it's not as stupid as them repeating the claim that we don't know where he was born when we do, but it's still really stupid).

The law and constitution recognize people born in the US to two foreigner parents here illegally as US citizens. If you're born a US citizen that obviously means that you can run for president, so those people born by not one, but Two foreign parents here illegally could obviously run for president in otherwords (as long as their parents filled out the proper paperwork when they were born to make them a US citizen that is).

[kwenu]

210. Actually, on this issue I would trust the SCOTUS.

And the decision would likely be unanimous.

[PuppyBismark]

212. SCOTUS May Take Case to Put the Issue to Rest

Perhaps SCOTUS may take up the case to put this to rest and rule that Obama and others with the same situation are indeed qualified to be President.

OK, it's a stretch for Thomas to do something reasonable, but the rest of the court may view this as a way to shut up the idiots in this country.

:eyes:

[kristopher]

260. That's my belief also. I think they may want to clear the air. nt

[genna]

215. He wrapped this shit sandwich in bullshit legalese

Basically he is saying that neither Congress by statute or children who issue from relationships between U.S. citizens and marry non-United States born folks can be President.

What case law or historical argument did he use to support either one of those assertions?


Obama showed his birth certificate to whatever right wing press people who felt like they needed to see it.

The Senate went through the unnecessary steps of legitimizing McCain's natural born status before the general election took place.


Why would Clarence Thomas choose to get into these waters when constitutional law does not support these contentions? How many of the founding father's parents were natural born within the range that the petitioner asserts?

[Samantha]

217. The Supreme Court has no right to set aside the results of an election

Sure they did interfere with the Florida recount in 2000, but it violated the Constitution by doing so. The Constitution divided the government into three parts to check and balance each other so that no one branch could have too much authority or influence. Apparent in that reasoning is the logic that the founders did not intend for one branch to anoint another branch, thus doing a end-run around the check and balance intent.

The Constitution delegates the right to run elections to the 50 states. The states can do whatever they like to decide an election, as long as its laws are contained in the State constitution. Once election day is held, the state cannot, for instance, change the way the slate of electors are chosen if its Constitution says the slate will be determined as a result of the popular vote. In that regard, the Florida legislature had no Constitutional authority in 2000 to choose a Republican slate of electors had the popular vote awarded Al Gore the win. Of course, Baker announced it would do so, if the recount gave the election to Gore over Bush, and no one stood up and said the Constitution would prevent you from doing that, but that is in fact the law, and the Constitution is the Supreme law of the land.

So in short, if one is thinking that the Supreme Court could overturn the results of the 2008 election by agreeing that New Jersey had a misfire,I am going to say off the top of my head it will have picked the absolutely wrong President-elect to try that on. He was, after all, a Constitutional lawyer for 10 years, and all Constitutional hell would break loose. So while the ego of some of those Justices might persuade them that the right to decide the Presidential elections of the United States, the Constitution does not back that judicial hubris up.

Sam

[bluedawg12]

220. Going for the RW coup this early?

No kidding, didn't they at least give Clinton 100 days?

[pnwmom]

236. How many days did the Supreme Court give Gore? n/t

[Phredicles]

223. I resent having spent brain cells on this thread.

Born in US = eligible to be president at age 35 + having lived in US for 14 years. Obama meets this standard. There is nothing further to discuss.

The term "concern troll" has been badly over-used here in recent months. But crimony, what else can this be...?

[nsd]

224. This article is horribly written.

What exactly did Clarence Thomas do? It isn't clear from this article that he actually supports reviewing this petition.

Looking at that website, the "Sonoran News" seems like a big joke. You might as well post an article from some supermarket tabloid.

[pnwmom]

238. First Souter rejected the lawsuit. Then Thomas decided to accept it for docketing,

and ordered it to be distributed to the full Supreme Court for consideration. Now it is up to them to decide if they're going to proceed any further. If three more decide that it should be heard, they'll schedule a hearing.

[woolldog]

241. What's the question before the court on appeal?

Is it Donofrio's standing to bring this claim? Do you know?

I think you should find that out before continuing these types of posts. It makes a big difference. For example, if the issue is one of standing, then the court could rule for Donofrio and the case would be sent back to the lower courts for a decision on the merits.

[bluedawg12]

226. Here's a preview of this question re: McLame

This is an insight into what we might expect if SCOTUS ever hears this case.

It was discussed in re: to McLame being a natural citizen.

Never underestimate cunning and malice when faced with loss of power. If Thomas picked it up, he has probably held out some hope of some argument in law, the question is what would they be?
...........

http://www.michiganlawreview.org/firstimpressions/vol107/solum.htm

Originalism and the Natural Born Citizen Clause
Lawrence B. Solum *†
* Associate Dean for Faculty and Research and John E. Cribbet Professor of Law and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Illinois. Professor Solum is the author of numerous articles on constitutional theory and the philosophy of law.

Conclusion

The phrase “natural born citizenship” is semantically inaccessible to modern readers. Because this phrase violates the rule of compositionality, it must be understood as an idiom or term of art. For this reason, gleaning the meaning of the phrase requires us to investigate linguistic practice to recover the original meaning—the meaning of “natural born citizen” at the time of constitutional utterance. When we look for public meaning, we may discover that the division of linguistic labor in the late 18th century takes us to the shared understandings of those learned in the law. We may need to look to eighteenth century linguistic practice to make sense of a phrase that would otherwise be either mysterious or radically ambiguous. For this reason, the natural born citizen clause may illustrate what we might call the “inescapability of originalism”: Some constitutional provisions only make sense after we turn our attention to the way language was used when they were framed and ratified. There is good reason to believe that the natural born citizen clause is one of these provisions.

But, from the fact that originalism is inescapable, it does not follow that originalism answers all constitutional questions. Grasping the original meaning of the natural born citizen clause may lead us to the conclusion that the constitutional text does not provide the answer to all of our questions about eligibility for the office of President. Constitutional practice may require both interpretation and construction: The original public meaning of the natural born citizen clause may not suffice to answer the question whether John McCain is eligible for the office of President of the United States.

Senator John McCain and Natural Born Citizenship -Commentary in this issue:
- Gabriel J. Chin, Why Senator John McCain Cannot be President: Eleven Months and a Hundred Yards Short of Citizenship
- Lawrence B. Solum, Originalism and the Natural Born Citizen Clause
- Daniel P. Tokaji, The Justiciability of Eligibility: May Courts Decide Who Can Be President?
- Peter J. Spiro, McCain’s Citizenship and Constitutional Method
- Stephen E. Sachs, Why John McCain Was a Citizen at Birth

............

[crispini]

283. I completely disagree with that article that says

that modern readers don't understand what "natural born citizen" mean. I bet you ten bucks if you asked 100 people what that means, with regards to becoming president, 90 of them would say either "born a citizen" or "born in the US." The remaining 10 would just say something weird because people do that.

Honestly, the only person who's in any real danger is McCain, IMO. What's the meaning of "born in the US" from the framer's point of view? Doubt they had military bases overseas in mind when they wrote the constitution.

[Clio the Leo]

233. I love how this continues to be an issue despite the fact that.....

.... none of Obama's opponents, no, not even that whack job from Wasilla, deemed it worthy of even mentioning during the campaign.

Just goes to show how absolutely absurd it is. I dont care if Rehnquist rose up out of the grave just to consider it, it's a non-issue. Nothing will come of it.

What we need to get back to discussing is how Obama is overloading his cabinet with those darned democrats! :)

And also, what kind of pie he ordered at lunch. This is what will matter in the long run. This is what historians will write about.

Pie.

[pnwmom]

239. The lawsuit started in October, and it opposes McCain as well as Obama.

So there wasn't much point for McCain to have brought it up.

[elkston]

266. You seem to really want this case to be valid, pnwmom. What's your angle?

Cause this shit is not helping Obama and neither are your continued efforts to give this legitimacy.

[pnwmom]

279. You're crazy. I would love for someone to clearly state why we shouldn't

worry about a repeat of the SCOTUS performance in 2000.

[Grateful for Hope]

284. I think one can look at this from a common sense viewpoint

First, this is not a matter of not having a clear "winner" in the last election. Obama overwhelmingly won, and, even if the current SCOTUS ruled that Obama is not "natural born", Biden would be president. It would still be a Democratic Administration.

Second, this country is in dire economic straits. I am sure the SCOTUS is aware that making a controversial decision of this magnitude at this time could have extremely negative consequences on the financial future of the US. The country would be thrown into such turmoil that I don't even want to consider what it would look like should this occur.

Third, Obama himself taught Constitutional Law, and, I am sure he would be defended by the very best attorneys America has to offer. In addition, I am sure he would not have run for president had there been any question in his mind that his citizenship could be successfully challenged.

Fourth, the current SCOTUS is not the same as it was in 2000. It lost two members, and, I doubt that the current configuration would favor making such a controversial ruling.

Fifth, I suspect that, because Bush turned out to be such an unpopular president, the SCOTUS would not want to highlight that infamous decision in 2000 by opting to once again interfere in the election process.

[crispini]

285. Ok, I'll give it a go:

First reason:
However you slice "natural born citizen" up to mean -- it's pretty clear that under almost any definition that makes any sense, Obama is still a "natural born" citizen. Born on US soil, to an American mother. All of that other stuff Donofrio is tossing in there is just sauce; the intent of the Framers is pretty clear. Now, McCain might actually be in some trouble, but who gives a shit?

Second reason:
Clarence Thomas may see some legal value in defining "natural born citizen" once and for all, and he may even convince some others on the court to hear the case based on that. But I doubt there are 5 people on the court who would have the stupidity and malice to try and overturn Obama's election based on some bizarre definition of "natural born citizen." For one thing, the definition is pretty clear and reasonable and commonsensical to MOST people, and, for a second thing, after Bush v. Gore, do you think this country would put up with that shit again? I doubt it, and I think SCOTUS knows it as well. I mean, if they went down that road, they would be setting themselves up for a real problem with the American People, and I'm sure they know that.

[WolverineDG]

286. and how many times have I done that already

You really are concerned, aren't you?

Okay, here, let's make this five, shall we?

First my thread with some case law (not all I'm sure, but it's the weekend & I don't work for free):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7910860&mesg_id=7910860

Second, the fact that the Constitution specifically prohibits the passages of bills of attainder, from which can be argued that it is a founding principle in this country that we don't punish someone simply for who their parents are (also applies to groups of people):

Wiki definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder

Further explanation w/(gasp) case law & a quote from James Madison: http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/attainder.htm

Jesus, give it up already. :eyes:

dg

[Boudica the Lyoness]

244. Sperm bank

What if an American woman, living in American, used the services of a sperm bank to have a baby and it was later found out the sperm came from a foreign exchange student, would her baby become a 'unnatural' born citizen, never ever able to run for president?

What if they never knew who the sperm came from and there was a chance it could have been from a foreigner, then what?

This is just too stupid and they need to drop it.

[opihimoimoi]

250. Thomas is clearly outta his friggen mind.....He is fucking nuts.

Do they have naked pictures of him ???? Why is he doing this??? it don't make sense unless someone wants to destroy Obama....now who would that be??? Hmmmmm...

[No Elephants]

251. A lot of the Framers and their spouses had parents who had been born abroad. If they had

wanted to exclude children of people from overseas, they could have written the Constitution that way. They didn't, even though the issues of loyalty (Tories) and foreign born ancestors were quite fresh in their minds and in the minds of those who ratified the Constitution. I don't see a Kenyan father being an issue. I am amazed that the suit has not been dismissed. Maybe the Supremes own stock in aluminium companies?

[TexasObserver]

254. Recall that Obama named Thomas as a judge he would not have appointed.

Remember when Obama was asked in a forum or debate about that, and named Thomas?

That was about 60 days ago. Even Thomas can remember that long.

This is a grudge fucking. It won't go anywhere.

[Skidmore]

258. American born women can confer citizenship to the children they birth

on American soil. I've done it twice. Marrying a non-citizen and living in another nation does not strip you of your citizenship.

[alwysdrunk]

259. "Split Loyalties" - Sound likie some bullshit

That is something that is not based on fact and can't be. Thomas is an ass.

[JI7]

261. there are some dumbasses in this thread

people actually arguing these people might have something because Obama's father was not a US Citizen even though Obama was born on American Soil ?

[cali]

262. lots and lots of hysterical and uninformed posters

sadly buying into the even more uninformed wingnut spin.

[CreekDog]

349. You mean the OP?

You have got to be kidding me! :crazy:

[pnwmom]

280. No one is arguing that here except for the claimant in the lawsuit.

But the case did not die with Souter; because of Thomas it has been distributed for consideration by the rest of the Court.

[CreekDog]

350. I thought it was interesting how you said

"split loyalties"

and "Kenyan citizenship"

multiple times and in direct or indirect reference to Obama.

you're not much of a Democrat, if in fact you are one at all.

[WeDidIt]

311. The argument has been presented

I seriously doubt it would pass muster, but I wold love to see a ruling once and for all to dispell all such arguments in the future.

[olegramps]

264. Could the attempt to invalidate the election be considered impeachable.

I am not suggesting that it is, but I would like someone with more legal knowledge to respond. Could it be reasoned that if the conservative justices provided a distorted and politically motivated interpretation of "natural born citizen" to overturn the election could it be considered to be a high crime or treason?

I would hate to see what could happen if they did would attempt to do this in the case of Obama's election. I don't know if Washington would even exist in the aftermath of the riots that could ensue.

[secondwind]

265. I always thought "natural born" meant NOT ADOPTED!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Montauk6]

274. So wait... let me see if I got this straight...

Ohio 2004 and Florida 2000 fell by the wayside but some 2-bit poker player can make a crying-in-a-beer gripe into Supreme Court case????

[DCBob]

276. The only people taking this seriously are Freepers and DU.

Do a Google search on "Denofrio" you get one hit -- the link in the OP. Even Drudge has not touched it.

[Honeycombe8]

277. Fact: There is no record in the S.Ct. site of any application by a "Denofrio."

Best to check sources for reliability before getting frantic over reports. If a site is a known conservative site, as this one is, then it is suspect, at best.

Best to have an AP or CNN report, where they fact check before reporting.

There has never been a Denofrio application filed with the U.S. S.Ct. Maybe the New Jersey S.Ct.?

[pnwmom]

281. That's because the spelling is Donofrio.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm

No. 08A407
Title:
Leo C. Donofrio, Applicant
v.
Nina Mitchell Wells, New Jersey Secretary of State
Docketed:
Lower Ct: Supreme Court of New Jersey
Case Nos.: (AM-0153-08T2 at the New Jersey Appellate Division without a docket number)

~~~Date~~~ ~~~~~~~Proceedings and Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nov 3 2008 Application (08A407) for stay pending the filing and disposition of a petition for a writ of certiorari, submitted to Justice Souter.
Nov 6 2008 Application (08A407) denied by Justice Souter.
Nov 14 2008 Application (08A407) refiled and submitted to Justice Thomas.
Nov 19 2008 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of December 5, 2008.


~~Name~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~Address~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~Phone~~~
Attorneys for Petitioner:
Leo C. Donofrio P.O. Box 93
East Brunswick, NJ 08816
Party name: Leo C. Donofrio

[crispini]

282. spelling

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm

[saltpoint]

278. My feeling regarding Clarence Thomas is that the nation would be

far better served if he were somehow lost on a long hike in the Sierra Nevadas and subsequently torn to tiny bits by several dozen mountain lions.

[Splinter Cell]

287. Fuck Thomas, and fuck Denofrio

It matters not where you're parents come from. If you are born on US soil, you are a citizen.

Your parents don't have to be citizens. Barack Obama is as much a natural born citizen as anyone to ever hold the presidency. It's a fact, and the right-wing needs to go fuck itself.

[Touchdown]

294. Is that a pubic hair on that notary stamp?

:eyes:

[Celebration]

301. I put the chances of this getting 5 votes at one out of five hundred

The chances of it getting 4 votes is about one out of twenty five.

If the one out of five hundred actually happens, and Obama is disqualified, then all it does is start a revolution. Imagine the stock market going down 2500 points in one day...........and riots in the streets.

[demwing]

309. I'm BEGGING the SC to Overturn This Election!

Because it would cause a peaceful revolution in this country, absolutely villify the Republican party and the Republican Judges, at home and abroad, for all time, and lead to the impeachment of every SC Judge who foolishly signs on. In the end, we'll still end up with Obama!

GO AHEAD, SCOTUS. PLEASE!

[cali]

313. Sorry, there's not chance of that, and if it did happen

the revolution would not be peaceful.

[berni_mccoy]

316. BY THIS LOGIC GEORGE WASHINGTON COULDN'T BE PRESIDENT

His logic against Obama is that Obama's FATHER wasn't a citizen. Well I guess that eliminates the constitutionality of the early presidents, many who's parents were not U.S. citizens.

He has a better case against McCain though.

[madrchsod]

317. 314 replies on this?

[berni_mccoy]

318. The Supreme Court Picking Up this case is SIGNIFICANT.

[cali]

320. It has NOT picked up the case.

period. conference is not picking up a case. sheesh.

[SweetieD]

321. No it isn't really.

They have to get 4 justices to sign on for certiorari. that is not going to happen.

[woolldog]

322. NO, it's NOT

Jesus Christ. The OP is very misleading.

The SC did not pick up this case. It was referred to conference to decide whether or not to grant certiorari. Most cases that go there aren't granted cert.

Secondly no one has answered what the question before the court on appeal is. The question on appeal might not even be whether Obama is a natural born citizen, it might be whether Denofrio as standing to bring his claim, or some other procedural question, in which case this is even more insignificant.

[crispini]

330. It's fun! I'm enjoying this.

It's like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[WolverineDG]

343. And accomplishing just as much

:P

dg

[rvablue]

324. The sad truth of this post and how many replies it has received

just proves the level of infiltration on this site.

A couple of weeks before and since the election, one could sense it with all of the "concerning"

I'm not saying anything about the OP, but the hundreds of "interested", "debating" and "worried" replies on this piece of garbage really makes one wonder who is who and what is what........

:eyes: :banghead:

[crispini]

332. What!? We're just having fun.

I don't think anyone is actually worried, except maybe the OP, who seems to have stopped posting. Everyone else just seems to be having fun with it.

[Phx_Dem]

333. I was just thinking the same thing (after I posted a comment. lol)

People need to step away from the Freeperville and the insanity that thrives there. If they hadn't been following this bullshit on Free Republic, they wouldn't be talking about lunatic Clarence Thomas. The first time he opens his yap since being named to the Court and this is the idiotic drivel that comes out. What a loser.

[gauguin57]

336. Nationalization Act of 1790 sez children born of U.S. citizens are "natural born citizens."

Constitution says "natural born citizens" can be president.

Ann Dunham was a United States citizen. Therefore, her son, Barack Obama, was a natural born citizen at birth (even if she had flown to the moon to give birth to him).

Hello President Obama! What's the effing problem, Justice Thomas?

[TexasObserver]

340. Justice Thomas only knows what Justice Scalia tells him.

Thomas is not qualified to be a Justice of the Peace, muchless a Supreme Court Justice.

[WolverineDG]

342. You give him too much credit nt

[TheKentuckian]

344. I think its commonly accepted that natural born means born on US soil

or the child of US citizens.

This is a fail. I believe even the wingnut judges would rule as such.

[and-justice-for-all]

345. Absurd and still clinging to desperation....

Leo C. Denofrio is an idiot trapped in a delusion.

If Obama was not a 'natural born citizen', don't ya think that would have been caught while he was running for senate? Leo C. Denofrio and the like are pathetic.

[CreekDog]

351. 6 recommends for this. Does that mean we have 6 concern trolls here too?

:shrug: :eyes:

[DFW]

353. There are five members of the court who would even consider voting against Obama

And all of them work in Washington, DC. If they look at the demographics of
that city, especially the area surrounding the Supreme Court, I would not
care to be in their shoes if they were known to have tried to prevent Obama
from taking the oath of office on this made-up technicality.

If John McCain wants to score some points, he might speak up on this in Obama's
favor, too. It's not like he will suddenly be awarded the presidency if they
manage to remove Obama from his position as president-elect. As it is pretty
much a given that this will fail, McCain should either get with it, or get lost.