Oh No! - Gasp!

[kpete]

Oh No!
by BarbinMD
Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 07:40:03 AM PST

Gasp!
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15902.html

President-elect Barack Obama has yet to attend church services since winning the White House earlier this month, a departure from the example of his two immediate predecessors.

On the three Sundays since his election, Obama has instead used his free time to get in workouts at a Chicago gym.

And if you think it's important for a President-elect to make a public show of attending church, just remember that:

On his first day as president-elect, following weeks of Florida recounts and court hearings, Bush went to church with his wife, Laura...During the service, the Rev. Mark Craig, senior pastor at Highland Park United Methodist Church in Dallas, told Bush, "You have been chosen by God to lead the people."

'Nuff said.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/24/10402/538/546/665583

[liberal N proud]

1. I have not been to church since before the convention

A republican from church asked me last week why I hadn't been there for several weeks.

I told him I was too busy changing the world. He knew I was involved in the Obama campaign.


These people need something to really worry about for gods sake.

[Hepburn]

12. I have not been to church since I attending a wedding in...

...November 2005. That is true if one does not count Temple. Was there about a month ago...for another wedding!

:hi:

[Triana]

2. Heh. The Obamas haven't chosen a church yet. I'm sure when they do,

they'll go. Not that I think it matters if they do or not. But - apparently the Taliban does.

[Auggie]

3. If there were a God, I'm sure he/she/it would understand the President-Elect

has some important shit to deal with.

[Clio the Leo]

4. His butt needs to get to chuch, pure and simple.

I love the man and this is my ONLY problem with anything he's doing. If he can go to the gym, he can go to church.

(and on the off chance that anyone wants to point out you dont have to go to church to be a good person, lemme warn ya. I'm a Church of Christ preacher's kid. I got scripture. But in all seriousness, I am not eager to engage in a debate in it here, I wont change your mind anyway ha ha)

Some folks want to whine about too much Hillary. Some want to whine about not enough gays and lesbians. *I* am gonna whine (although only when someone else brings it up) about not enough church. That's MY thing. lol

[FlaGranny]

6. I don't think he needs

some preacher telling him what God thinks he should do and if a preacher did try to do that I hope to God Obama would not listen. The preachers I know have no more of a direct link to God than the average Joe - which is none.

[Clio the Leo]

8. I'm sorry that is what your concept of what church is....

.... because church is ALL about God, not about man (or what "some preacher" says.) And you're right, a preacher has no greater link to God than Joe the Congregant has, lol. All ANY of us have is the Bible.

Hebrews 10:23-25 ;)

[jenmito]

9. What about those of us who don't believe in god? What IS the bible except a book

that some human beings wrote? And why does it bother you that someone who DOES believe in god misses church when they have something more important to do-like figure out how they're going to save the world from the mess the last guy got us into? Does it mean he doesn't believe any more or that god is no longer with him?

[Clio the Leo]

11. But Obama DOES believe in God and has been very clear about it....

... and therefore I hold him to a higher standard. He's also very intelligent and studious and the Bible which I know he holds as the foundation of his faith makes it pretty clear about church attendance.

To me, it would the equivalent of him, as a leader in the Democratic party, not holding true a certain basic party policy issue.

If you're gonna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.

And again, as I said, I ADORE the man and this is the ONLY problem I have with anything he does.

Well, other than his open disdain for cream pies in favor of sweet potato.

But to answer your question, we are all free moral agents. Those of you who choose to not believe in God certainly have that prerogative. But Barack Obama, thankfully, is not one of those people. ;)

[jenmito]

14. I KNOW he does, which is why I asked,

"And why does it bother you that someone who DOES believe in god misses church when they have something more important to do-like figure out how they're going to save the world from the mess the last guy got us into? Does it mean he doesn't believe any more or that god is no longer with him?"

The bible says you have to go to church every week no matter WHAT? They didn't HAVE presidencies when they wrote the bible, did they? You'd think whoever wrote the book would make exceptions for such things.

And why are you thankful that we have a president who believes in god? Wouldn't you be more impressed with someone who did the right thing because they feel it's the right thing to do and not because some imaginary entity tells them to?

[Clio the Leo]

15. Sorry.......

The President Elect was speaking when I read your last post ... he always manages to distract me. :)

To answer your question, as a Christian, there is nothing more important than worshiping God. Pure and simple. If he can take an hour out of saving the world to play basketball, he can take an hour and go to church.

The Bible says you should attend church whenever your brothers and sisters assemble (barring being physically unable of course.) It's plainly written in Hebrews 10:23-25. I realize that's a whacked-out concept in today's world, but it's right there.

And why am I thankful that we have a President-elect who believes in God? Because that's my prerogative. :)

Just as it's your prerogative to believe God is an "imaginary entity."

Isn't this a great country?

But, to give you a more serious answer, I'm thankful that we have a President-elect who believes in God because obeying God is important to me. I believe that any idea God has is far superior to any idea mankind has. I realize that's probably not an answer you'll agree with, but it's the only answer I have.

[jenmito]

21. Yeah, I watched him, too...

Why can't Obama "worship God" from his house/heart? Why does he HAVE to do it in a church, especially when he has so many other things going on? He can't play basketball in his home/mind, but he can still pray that way.

Yes, it IS a great country and I'm glad we have a great man who will soon be the leader of it. And what you call "obeying God" I call having a conscience. I don't believe in god yet I do all the things I guess "god" (or the people who claim to speak for him) says are the right things to do (except I wouldn't stone women to death for cheating on their husbands, I don't believe being gay is wrong nor do I believe it's a choice nor am I against gay marriage, but that's just the non-god-believer I am). What do you think about that? ;)

[jenmito]

26. kick for a response

[Clio the Leo]

ahem, lemme type this verse out ONE more time ...lol

I'll even quote it for you this time. :)

Hebrews 10:23-25

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

It's right there. You gotta get up and take your butt to church. I would have LOVED to have stayed in bed yesterday morning. It was a yucky day. Not an option though.

Now, so we're all on the same page. Christians believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God. It matters not that the above was written by the Apostle Paul. It has the same weight as if Christ had said it, or if God had inscribed it onto a stone tablet and Barack .... sorry, I mean Moses .... had carried to down from the mountain top. :)

Ok now people, I gotta go to the store! I got three cats sitting looking at me with their legs crossed because we're out of cat litter! EEEK!

[jenmito]

34. Yeah, I read your response to the other poster who disagreed with your interpretation. But when you

have time, maybe you could respond to the rest of my post. TIA. :)

[Clio the Leo]

36. Again, I am sorry .....

... I missed the "what do you think about that?" part .... really shouldn't try to do more than one thing at a time. I'm worse than McCain. :)

I didn't respond to that part because I didn't disagree with it. You stated what you believe and I believe first and foremost that we all have rights to our opinions. It's what this nation was founded on and it's a freedom God gave us as thinking beings. You and I are not going to change one another's minds.

We dont have to agree all the time, we just have to live peacefully ... (or is it peaceably?) together.

Hey, long story short, as long as you keep voting straight democratic, you're cool by me and I hope you feel the same with me! ;)

Ok for the LAST TIME!!! I'm going to the store!!! lol

[jenmito]

48. I added that part to get your feedback. And you say you don't disagree with that

part, yet you also said you hold Obama "to a higher standard" for believing in god. Why? You think people who don't believe in god aren't expected to live at the same moral standard as someone who does? Then you must see me as even morally SUPERIOR to those who believe in god since I behave morally without having a book telling me what to do, right? :shrug: Not to mention I am not intolerant towards those different from me as people who live "by the bible" do. I would think that proves that believing in "god" does NOT make someone better than someone who does not.

[Clio the Leo]

55. I answered that.......

.... because Obama has publically talked about his faith and because we, as Christians are required to exhort one another. (1 Tim 6:2, 2 Tim 4:2, Heb 3:13.)

I dont expect the same of those who dont believe in God because, if we dont agree on the rule book, then there's no common ground upon which to hold a discussion on the matter.

I believe there are good people outside of the church and I believe that YOU are one of those people. ;)

[jenmito]

59. Well...

it looks like a couple people who DO believe in god here disagree with your interpretation of the bible, I don't know how useful it is to cite "chapter and verse" but I guess when you said you were thankful that Obama is one who believes in god, (paraphrased) I got the impression that you felt anyone who DOESN'T is morally inferior. Thanks for clearing it up for ME at least. ;)

[azmouse]

38. Sorry but I don't read that as having to go to worship services EVERY week.

I don't find church services very inspiring... at all. And yes I do believe in God very much.
I just had enough of church hypocrites in my growing up years to trust any church at this point in my life.

God and I will just have to continue to met one-on-One.

[Clio the Leo]

42. Yeah, again, that's the big problem....

.... too many "Christians" talking and not LIVING as they should. I'm really sorry for that.

I wish you could come to church with me. I think it would give you a different perspective.

Besides, you're missing out on all the pot luck suppers. That's the best part! (ha!)

[Obamanaut]

49. But, according to one source, Paul did not write Hebrews, some

say they aren't sure who did:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.Heb.i.html

<snip>

“…it does not bear the name of any in the front of it, as the rest of the epistles do, and there has been some dispute among the learned to whom they should ascribe it…”

<snip>

There is much more at the link to Matthew Henry's Commentary.

Now, having typed that, this was one of the most enjoyable threads I've read in a while. I am a non believer, and my sister is a staunch Episcopalian, and we have some very fun chats over coffee. I can't have that much fun with most people because so many become angry - that's why I enjoyed most of this thread, and also too that I've never seen cats cross their legs there. (Had to throw in some Palinspeak)

[FlaGranny]

18. Okay, what does the bible say about church attendance?

There were no churches in biblical days. The strongest thing the Bible says about praying makes it pretty clear that it should not be done in public. Perhaps there is another part of the Bible that says the opposite?

Edit: I see you are quoting a part of the bible that DOES say the opposite of what it said in another area. I guess its okay to take your pick.

Second Edit: Okay, I read it, and I see no mention of church. Assembly is mentioned (a gathering). It says to encourage one another, etc. It does not mention a building where you go and listen to a priest or a preacher who interprets everything for you. As far as that passage goes, the assembly could be under the stars or in a bowling alley, and does not require a preacher at all. And it says nothing about organized religions and their buildings. In fact, Jesus is quoted far more extensively on this subject than the unknown person or persons who wrote Hebrews:


Matthew 6:5 - 7

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites : for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Second (or third?) Edit: Taking these 2 parts of the bible together, literally, they would seem to say, gather to encourage one another, but never pray in a public place. So I would assume Jesus would not look kindly at praying in a public place like a church.

[jenmito]

22. kick-I'd love a response to this n/t

[Clio the Leo]

24. No churches in the Bible? Huh?

We reading the same book? :)

A church is not a building, it's an assemblage of people worshiping God, edifying one another, fellowshipping with one another, seeking to save the lost and helping the unfortunate.

The Church was established on the day of Pentecost and Christian congregations have been assembling ever since. It's right there in Act 2.

Now, you have perked my ears up. :) What do you mean when you say "the opposite of what it said in another area."

Ok hang on are you referring to Matt 6 where Christ said that prayers should be done for God's sake and not for show as some were doing "in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets."

The only problem is that the New Testament is repleat with examples of early churches being instructed to pray during worship services. I Corinthians 11 is just one example of this and I can give you more if you need them ... in just about any translation you would like. :-)

Again, I'm sorry for whatever caused you to have this opinion of the worship service that you have. It's really a much nicer thing than you seem to be under the impression that it is. ((((you))))

[FlaGranny]

57. There were NO churches

in Biblical times - Biblical times - when the people being written about were alive. There were Jewish synagogues which Jesus attended. Christianity did not become a religion until well after Jesus died. The entire new testament was written by people who never laid eyes on Jesus (except perhaps for one), never heard him speak, never saw him resurrected, and weren't born until many years after Jesus' death and therefor no Christian churches. Point me to a place in the bible where Jesus himself instructs people to go to a church and pray. Corinthians does not quote him.

[Goblinmonger]

29. "hold him to a higher standard"

You're kinda condescending, aren't you. I know you come across all folksy and down to earth, but, damn.

"Obama, thankfully, is not one of those people." Hows about you climb off that high horse of yours and focus on what's important.

[Clio the Leo]

30. Here my friend, have some pie.

I love pie, don't you?

And I'm afaid that's about all you and I will agree on when it comes to this. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. ;)

[Avalux]

25. Maybe at this point in time, Obama needs a good workout instead of sitting in church.

How on earth can you judge him and categorically say he needs to attend church? Who knows what the man needs to lead this country at this point in time?

Brazenly presumptuous.

[Clio the Leo]

28. Nope, brazenly Christian. ;-)

We, as Christians, are required to exhort one another.

If the man wasn't a Christian or hadn't publically talked about his faith I wouldn't even mention it.

[Avalux]

32. So as a Christian, it's OK for you to tell others what to do?

And judge them when they don't behave appropriately?

Jesus did not promote this sort of thing and it's exactly what turns me off about 'Christians'. You have no higher standing with God because you call yourself a Christian and because you go to church every week.

Worry about yourself and your own soul - leave everyone else alone.

[Clio the Leo]

35. Other Christians, yes.....

... and with all due respect, you are making presumptions that I didn't say. ;)

But I understand, there are a lot of so called Christians out there who are ruining it for the rest of us with their attitudes and practices.

NOW! Store! .......... here I go!!!! LOL

[beachmom]

10. I couldn't give a flying flap jack whether he goes to church or not.

Here is hoping he is a secret agnostic.

[arewenotdemo]

58. Amen to that.

Or an Atheist/Freethinker/Pantheist.

Or any one of those three separately!

[scheming daemons]

20. F.U..organized religion is the bane of modern society. Maybe Obama is talking to God DIRECTLY

..at the gym.



Your dad's profession is part of the problem.

[Clio the Leo]

41. Oh yeah! Well f.............

aww crap! I wish I could swear! ha ha

My father's profession as a civil rights lawyer for the NAACP is part of the problem? How so? ;)

[Zuiderelle]

27. "Some want to whine about not enough gays and lesbians."

And some people just want to be asses.

[Clio the Leo]

33. Yeah, that Sean Hannity is annoying, isn't he? :-) NT

[Zuiderelle]

37. Do you see how you triviliaze civil rights by comparing it to someone going to church or not?

Going to church is a right you can exercise or not, purely up to the individual. Getting married is only for straight people. For you to say that some people "whine" about gays and lesbians not having "enough" you really show your true colors.

[Clio the Leo]

40. Hang on to ya hat kid, I'm about to BLOW you away....

.... I am IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE!!!

Nope, not just "civil unions." And you just made me realize one of the few things that I disagree with Obama on.

If I lived in a state that voted on it, I'd vote FOR gay marriage in a heartbeat. Wouldn't even have to think twice about it. Because, as I said earlier, we live in a wonderful country. One that allows for diversity of beliefs. If one person is denied of her rights, then so am I. If I can marry the man I love, then so can my neighbors, Kevin and Andy. (I think it's unfortunate that I cant marry the MEN that I love, but that's another matter ha ha.)

With all due respect, I think you misunderstood my humor above (and perhaps I didn't word it correctly.) I said "Some want to whine about not enough gays and lesbians." I meant IN THE CABINET. I didn't say "some want to whine about gays and lesbians not having enough." ;)

I was joking about the debate here that we either had too much Hillary in the cabinet or not enough diversity. Under any other president I'd agree, but not with this guy. For once, I feel confident that he will choose his cabinet based on those best qualified and not allow ethnicity or sexual preference or ..... anything that has no bearing on the job in question ..... influence him.

My father was a member of SNCC and was almost lynched during the civil rights movemnt. Trust me. You dont have to warn me about trivializing civil rights. (((Love ya!))))

[Zuiderelle]

43. Though, I admit I misread you, it was your use of the word "whine" that stood out.

There are plenty of Christians in office, so, really I'm not sure what your complaint is.

But anyway I appreciate your response, and your support. I just don't understand why it's important for Obama to go to church. After all, wherever people are gathered together in God's name, IS church, right? And I'm sure the Obama family is praying together.

[Clio the Leo]

44. It's more than about being gathered.....

... as I listed above, a church does many things. It's a gray area and I wont say it's IMPOSSIBLE for a family unit (which, because of their ages would really only limit it to Barack and Michelle) to do all the things a church has to do to be a church. I guess a family could do it, but it would have to be a BIG family and certainly not one as busy as the Obamas are.

That's the beauty of a congreation. Lots of strenghts that we can pool together for the greater good.

I am unaware of any example of just a family meeting together in the first century and it being considered a church. Every time a congregation is cited, it's a community of people.

And, as I also mentioned above, more people means more food at the pot luck dinner!

Let me be real honest here .... this is all really about pie. I'm legitimately concerned that Barack is missing some really good pie. I mean ANYONE will tell you that the BEST pies are made by some little old lady who goes to church every week. DUH! :)

And actually, no, there really aren't very many Christians in office. At least not as I define them.

[Two Americas]

45. excellent

Beautiful job, Clio the Leo, and thanks to jenmito as well. Respectful, interesting, and informative discussion. Good work folks. Much appreciated.

Claiming to be a Christian and not showing up for church is like claiming to be a football player and on the team yet not showing up for team practice. Of course we could argue that the self-proclaimed football player is practicing at home, or we could say that football is evil and we don't like it, or we could say that we would rather he were not a football player, or that "there are many paths to being a football player and who are we to judge" but none of that is germane.

[azmouse]

47. I AM a Christian and I don't attend church.

No you may not judge me on that. It is a personal choice I've made.
I believe in my salvation through Jesus Christ alone.
I have not found a church that I am confortable with.
There ARE many paths to God.
What I do in relation to my God is between Him and me.

[Two Americas]

50. understood

I am not judging you. And the person who does not show up for team practice may be a football player. Then we would wonder what the person meant, that's all.

Had Obama said exactly what you just said, no problem. I don't care, and don't judge him. But as it is, there is a problem. I question what he means when he says he is a Christian. Nothing wrong with that. Any harshness, criticism, or judgment you read in my remarks was not intended.

Bush, by the way, if the reports I have read are accurate (posted them on another thread, and could fetch them again of needed) does not attend church regularly nor belong to a congregation. That has, and should, raise questions, no?

I admire how people ion this thread were discussing this issue calmly and respectfully. Hope I haven't messed that up lol.

[Clio the Leo]

52. sigh...... I vowed I'd leave this thread alone when I got back from the store! lol

But you just HAD to go there! lol ..... had to touch on the one argument that Christians often debate that bothers me so much.

I'll keep it simple and just quote Paul.

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? ~ I Corinthians 1:10-13

and

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ~ Ephesians 4:1-6


I pray that you DO find a congregation. You know, seek and ye shall find .... and all that. ;)

[Irishman26]

60. I don't understand why you think that quoting the bible...

to people who think it to be nothing more than a book(as I do for example), is some kind of valid argument. This is really simple, you're trying to say how somebody should live their life. That is wrong(and no, the person in question being a christian still does not give you right to say how they should live). Simple. Quoting a book that you happen to believe in is completely irrelevant.

[Pale Blue Dot]

31. He needs to get to church and pray to an invisible sky god!

And he needs to study up on God's son, who was born of a virgin (even though there is almost no historical evidence that he ever existed). And he certainly need to study the Bible, because that is the word of God, ALL OF IT - even the parts about it being OK to let your daughters be gang-raped if you are preventing angels from being gang-raped.

:eyes:

[nini]

53. You don't need to be in a building to be close to God

Quite the contrary IMHO.

[mamalone]

62. I really like what you're saying in this thread...

and I like the way you're saying it too. IMO you're right on target. With all Obama's got on his shoulders right now, the man needs to be in church for his own emotional and spiritual well-being.

[ecstatic]

64. Where? He doesn't have a church anymore, remember?

Should he just show up anywhere and hope the message fits his worldview? Or even risk being tied to some more inflammatory statements (there's still a double standard in what black preachers are allowed to say compared to white preachers).

[AtomTan]

5. OMG HE'S A MOOSLIM.

[yellowcanine]

7. Oh Noes! Backsliding could be grounds for impeachment.

[Dappleganger]

13. If the current president proved anything...

it's that more church doesn't help a bit.

[Sebastian Doyle]

16. So how about a thread condemning these idiots at Politic-Ho

Just like the one condemning the Washingmoonie Times?

They have been anti-Obama from day one. And it's obvious who they work for.

[RoadRage]

17. In Related News.. he is still yet to be spotted entering a Mosk... NT

[azmouse]

19. Good for him! It is Obama's choice whether to attend services or not.

I very much believe in God but haven't seen the inside of a church in more years than I can remember.
God can be worship ANYWHERE. That worship doesn't have to take place inside a building.
I once attended a fundie church when I was a teen. Thankfully I got away from it. But I now have difficulty trusting any church with my salvation. That is now between me and the God I pray to.

[4lbs]

23. I've attended church just 5 times in the last 20 years. It was quite literally for

four weddings and a funeral.

[Bucky]

39. someone said it on the internet, so it must be true

This has the smell of a bullshit smear. Expect Rush & Hannity to pick up this story and run with it.

[TexasObserver]

46. That's great news!

I HOPE he was only touting religion for political purposes!

[question everything]

51. Oh oh, so much for the evangelicals vote (nt0

[TheKentuckian]

54. Another no-traditional Christian here that hasn't been to church since the Reagan Administration

other than for weddings and funerals.

I'm receptive to fellowship but its got to be about the fellowship and not Reichwingery, gossip, hypocrisy, and general misrepresentation of the Word.

[ITsec]

56. Where in the Constitution does it say that a President must to go to church?

Or any other public official, for that matter?

What's worse... a President who doesn't go because he just doesn't want to or feels the need to, or one that goes strictly to appeal to the churchies and fundies? Isn't the latter totally hypocritical?

[RagAss]

61. Uhhhh.....on the back.

[awoke_in_2003]

63. I would feel better

if he came out and said he didn't believe in imaginary beings, but I know that won't happen.