The Bitter Potion

[H2O Man]

{1} "Much of your pain is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self." – Kahlil Gibran

These are better days, Eric Alterman writes in the new edition of The Nation, for we have elected a President who will be to politics what Muhammad Ali was to boxing. Yet, he warns, "Obama will disappoint us. That’s part of the job description." I agree.

It has been three weeks since Americans went to the polls and elected Barack Obama and Joseph Biden. For the next week, DU was a pleasurable place to spend time, as we celebrated what Alterman describes as "the greatest electoral moment" of everyone born after 1932’s lifetime.

However, in the last two weeks, there has been a growing sense of acrimony here. A large part of the discontent is rooted in disagreements: disagreements on President-elect Obama’s choices (and potential choices) for his cabinet and administration; disagreements on if he should attempt to govern from "the middle"; and disagreements on how DUers should disagree on issues on this forum.

That there will be disagreements on such things can come as no surprise. The DU community is a collection of very different individuals and groups. There are progressives, liberals, moderates, and even some conservative democrats here. More, many individuals hold a range of opinions, making it so that not only is there an overlap on many issues creating "groups," but there is also disagreement on other issues, which creates divisions.

We see both a good and bad potential being realized on the forum as a result. There are some interesting discussions that focus on a wide range of issues involved with the upcoming Obama administration and the numerous problems that we face as a nation. There are likewise some ugly disagreements that are causing a growing bitterness within factions of the DU community.

{2} "Intolerance betrays a want of faith in one’s cause." – Gandhi

During the democratic primary and general election in 2004, I suggested in a couple of OPs and threads that it would be interesting if the democratic party created a united front, in the sense of tapping the talents of as many of the primary candidates as possible. For example, while I strongly opposed Rep. Dick Gephardt’s positions and actions which supported the Bush-Cheney march to war in Iraq, I recognized that he had strengths in the area of labor issues.

At the time, I do not think a single other DUer agreed with me. A number of people pointed out that the concept was naïve at best, and could never be considered as a possibility in the real world. A year later, of course, Doris Kearns Goodwin published a book, "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln."

I point this out not so much for a pat upon my humbly bowed head, as to remind people that even naïve ideas sometimes can be considered as possibilities in the real world. Some of the ideas expressed by other people on this forum may strike us as being a bit off the wall, but that does not mean they are not worthy of respect or consideration.

In the 2008 election season, I supported Barack Obama. At the same time that I explained why I considered him the best choice for President, I also noted that I fully expected that, when elected, there would come times when the liberal-progressive community would have to approach him much in the manner that the civil rights movement approached President Kennedy.

My point is this: please consider making the effort to take other people’s points of view respectfully here. No matter how you may feel about a particular appointment, or on any of the issues, no harm can come from listening to other people, and considering their opinions. It doesn’t mean that you or I have to agree with them. But we can all attempt to be more civil, even in cases where it may not be easy. For while there will not be a time when we agree on everything, the time has come when we need to work as a more united progressive and liberal front.

Peace,
H2O Man

[patrice]

1. Good Morning, H2O Man!

Thanks for the light from Gibran and Gandhi!

Have a good day, H2O Man . . . .

:hi:

[H2O Man]

2. Thank you.

It's a tough time in our country (and the rest of the world). But we always have the option of making it a good day. I try to exercise that option.

[LWolf]

3. Listening is good.

I promise to listen to anything offered in a thoughtful way.

That doesn't extend, of course, to being derided as "loony left" and "fringe" for objecting to Obama's appointments or policies, or for liking other politicians more.

Edited to add to the list of things I've been called, just today, mind you, here on DU, for not loving Obama:

delusional; absurd; futile; infantile; whacko; and, of course, "irrelevant."

For the record, in case there are any DUers who didn't already know this:
I've never been a fan. I'm not a fan, now. I would rather have elected most of those from the original primary group before Obama. It's all about issues, and I disagree with him on every single key issue. I haven't had any "hope" for the change I wish to see since January. I don't expect great things from an Obama administration. I am already mobilized and moving to put pressure on from the left behind left.

I'm getting ready, after I paint my office today, to put a letter together again to send off to Obama. My last one was returned to me, with an explanation of why it couldn't be accepted. It was a congratulations, along with encouraging him to reach out to teachers. I will modify, and return.

I want to know if he will walk THIS talk: "I will listen to you, especially when you disagree."

[H2O Man]

9. I saw a couple

of those exchanges, and thought they were sad, indeed.

While you and I definitely disagree on many/most issues in the context of what Obama offers, I would suggest that you consider using the phone to register disagreements. I found that, during the primaries, I had success in that manner of communication.

All bureaucracy is a system for dealing with large numbers of people, by meeting the expected needs of the greatest numbers. Hence, for decades, I have had numerous experiences of writing to politicians, and getting "non-responses" in return. (Many, many good responses, too, so I strongly advocate letter-writing.)

Quite often, in our modern world, we feel frustrated in dealing with bureaucracy. Few things are as annoying to me as recorded messages that offer no good options. Phone calls to Obama HQ allowed me the opportunity to talk to real live, thinking human beings. I had a series of calls in which I expressed my thoughts, and got feed-back that satisfied me.

[LWolf]

14. Good suggestion.

I will call, as well as write.

[CakeGrrl]

25. Other terms I've seen: "In Denial", "Whiny titty babies"

for people who aren't 100% rhapsodical about the news of cabinet picks.

:wtf:

I'm just not understanding the number of defensive, impassioned "I STILL support Barack Obama!" "The majority of people LIKE Obama's picks!!!" threads that get started in reaction to some people not being overjoyed about some of the cabinet picks.

I just don't take those concerns as a slam on Obama's impending presidency.

I voted for Obama, I supported him throughout the primaries, and I contributed considerably more money to his campaign than the average poster on these forums if polls are accurate.

I'm relieved he's going to be in the White House and I'm sure he'll get things moving in the right direction.

But I may not think some of the people chosen to help with that may be the best pick out there. So what if I have that opinion? That doesn't mean I wish I could take back my vote. I just don't get why people are shouting down and hurling epithets at anyone who thinks some of these early choices could be a little better, more progressive, whatever.

A lot of people seem to forget that Obama has warned us repeatedly that he is not a perfect man and will not be a perfect president. He isn't going to make perfect decisions.

He said he would listen to those who disagree.

Add to that the fact that his cabinet picks are also mere mortals who may be even more fallable than he. Where is the harm in raising questions?

[LWolf]

37. There is no harm in raising questions.

As a matter of fact, if you take him at his words, he INVITED those who disagree to raise questions.

[stillcool]

39. I wish that people could express..

disagreements without derisive and divisive commentary. It only provokes the same, creating the dance that never ends. I would imagine that people who are so caustic with the language they use here, do not express themselves that way in their off-line life. How could they? The hyper-critical, all or nothing, black and white, me vs. you, us vs.them stuff results in nothing but digging in your heels. But some people truly enjoy that, otherwise why would they continuously do it?

[H2O Man]

40. One of the better

English teachers I had in college would not allow people to use any foul language in our papers. He said that it showed a lack of creativity to resort to using harsh terms.

[brer cat]

4. Always a voice for reason, H2O Man.

Not one of us will EVER see an administration that will give us everything we want. It is only through respectful discussions of our diverse points of view that we will find the best compromises. I certainly have learned much from DUers who have different views and priorities than I hold. I hope to continue learning from them as we move forward in the Obama-led administration.

Recommended.

[H2O Man]

11. Thanks.

Many years ago, when I gave what I considered a well-reasoned explanation of how and why politicians should do exactly as I saw fit, my friend Rubin suggested that I take off my rose-colored glasses and deal with the real world. I try, from time to time, to take both views, to see if there is any overlap.

[yodermon]

5. K&R

[H2O Man]

12. Thanks. n/t

[TexasObserver]

6. If DU were Green Acres, you would be Eddie Albert.

Nothing looks quite as insane as the only sane man in a group of lunatics.





(I'm complimenting you)

[H2O Man]

7. DU is Green Acres,

at least one-half the time. The Twilight Zone is another half. And we can all agree to disagree on what the third half is.

In his classic "The Sane Society," Erich Fromm said that sane individuals tend to appear like oddballs in insane societies. I've always kept that in mind. (grin)

[TexasObserver]

8. "Oh, boy!! Hot Water Soup!!"

When I was in law school in the mid 1970s, I used to take a break from studying or working long enough to watch the insanity on Green Acres every afternoon. Some UHF station carried it in Austin, and I'd never seen it before. That craziness was an oasis for my fried synapses.

[H2O Man]

10. I live in the

"suburbs" of a iny hamlet that has characters to rival Hooterville. My normal brother, who prefers "city life," often refers to my community as Hooterville, in fact. It was one of our favorite shows. My children do not share our appreciation of the show.

[TexasObserver]

13. Green Acres is the place to be ...

I have a grown son who watched Green Acres in the 80s, when he was in grade school, so we have that common history for the show. I used to watch Star Trek, The Next Generation, with all three of my kids in the late 80s and early 90s, and they're all still fans of STNG. That's another great little show, written on two levels, and enjoyable on both levels.

With regard to your topic, while I'm comfortable with everyone saying whatever they want to say about any topic at hand, I still get annoyed with those who daily find a reason to be angry, hurt, or disappointed. I'm ecstatic about Obama and what he's done so far. I don't get all the angst over his appointments. It's a government, not a church. And even if it were, I'm not dogmatic. I'm pragmatic. Get the best we can, and move to the left as we can.

[H2O Man]

16. There are many times

when things that I read on DU remind me of the wisdom of Mark Twain's saying, "The problem in the world today is not one of ignorance; it's people knowing so darned much that just ain't so."

Recently, when I wrote that President Nixon had never been found guilty of a Watergate-related offense, another DUer scolded me, and produced a link to the Articles of Impeachment that the House was prepared to bring against him. I responded by saying that the Senate would have tried the case, but that Nixon resigned, and then President Ford pardoned him, which did away with any chance of further legal proceedings. A person can agree or disagree with Ford's action, but that doesn't change the fact that Nixon didn't face consequences in any trial.

I mention that one, simply because it is a topic that I think should be covered in high school. An awareness of the US Constitution, and how it relates to the world of politics, should be required before a diploma is issued for any student. That's not to say that mistakes aren't a part of discussions, including on a forum such as DU. But the amount of errors in thinking on DU is, at times, rather surprising.

[Captain Hilts]

20. Yes, indeed! Thanks Waterman!

[Blackhatjack]

15. You've raised a related topic I have been mulling over a long time...

At the time that rightwing conservatives rose to power in the Republican Party, there was a 'shift' in thinking about how to 'market' the Republican brand, and the strategy that would best serve them in reaching potential converts.

The idea of confidently and intelligently debating the other side(Democrats) in order to reach the potential converts was deemed to have passed, and a new approach had to be fashioned.

I recall watching a so-called news story about how up and coming Republican strategists were training their fellow spokespeople to 'own' the media opportunities. By this, they explained that media opportunities for the most part are brief, and whenever the red light is on they needed to dominate the discussion. First, they were instructed to 'go prepared to get their talking points across' regardless of what questions or topics were presented. Second, since time was short, they should 'talk over' the opposition panel member in order to get their position out, and that would keep the other side from being heard clearly. Third, was to always, always stay on message --which would be coordinated by party leaders and distributed to them for repetition.

This became an entrenched tactic which the news media catered to because it caused conflict and raised interest in viewers. Arguably, it amounted to reducing political debate to a level equal to 'wrestling post match interviews.' The loudest, and most aggressive would garner the most tv coverage time and attention.

The rules of thoughtful and intelligently presented arguments in a format that allowed equal time were forever altered. Thus the merit of an idea became subjugated to the rules of the venue that rewarded the most boisterous speakers.

I believe this is where the creation of an emotional response in the viewer became the goal. And it was natural for a Karl Rove to stumble upon hot button issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. to emotionally electrify voters who would go to the polls and vote Republican on the one issue.

Unless we change the rules by which our politicians and governmental leaders debate issues in the media, we will continue to 'dumb down' the voting populace when it comes to educating them on topics of vital importance to each one of them, and collectively to all of us.

The time for restoring public debate in our democracy is now, and that will require all of us to exercise individual restraint in order to experience the benefits that emanate from ideas being tested in the 'Great Marketplace of Ideas.'

[H2O Man]

17. It was the essence

of Newt Gingrich & Co.'s destruction of the Congress. And it is a shame to see democrats ape the Newt Gingrich/Sean Hannity style of attacking on an emotional level, to blur rational thought. It is certainly something that has to be rejected and reversed, before our Constitutional democracy can be repaired.

It is curious to see those who advocate faith in President-elect Obama use the tactics that he has shown are harmful.

[Kind of Blue]

26. Thanks for mulling it over and posting your analysis of the bull dog tactic.

It caused me to dig in my heels and not be so nice while arguing with Republicans or anyone else for that matter. For me it was very, very useful in these past 8years because it does in its way strengthen critical thinking, quickens recall, and obliterates doubt. I, for one, am very willing to do away with this antagonistic form of debate.

[Sunnyshine]

18. K& R - This OP speaks for me. Great article by E. Alterman. Thanks for posting this H20 Man.

We are all together in one party, let's make the most of our diverse talents.

[H2O Man]

19. Thank you.

[Lochloosa]

21. I also supported Barack. I will allow him time to form his team.

I may not agree with all of his choices, but I will support him.

I wish him the best of luck.

Thanks H2O Man for saying it better than I can.

[H2O Man]

30. Thank you.

Lately, I spend about 1/3rd of my "reading time" going over my collection of books by and about Martin Luther King, Jr. And of course I realize that Barack Obama isn't Martin King, but I can't help but think about some of the things they have in common. People, including those close to him, looked to Martin for "the answer." Yet when his ideas weren't what they wanted to hear, almost to a person, they knew better than him. He needed to do more; he needed to do less. He had to raise exectations; at the same time, he had better lower them. Change was necessary; but it might not be the right time.

One of the other things that stands out, is that quite often, when Martin tasked people will important responsibilities at crucial times. they came through. That also included the grass roots. When Martin asked, they stepped up to the plate.

I think we will see similarities with this young President. People, even those near him, may have different ideas in mind than he does. But he seems to have that quality of being able to get people to step up. That will include most of those in his administration, and hopefully, the grass roots as well.

[bleever]

22. Having a ruling consensus doesn't mean that everyone gets their way.

I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

CHORUS
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

--Ricky Nelson

It's okay if people weren't happy that Dylan went electric, or if people find Obama's appointments too centrist (without waiting to watch the policy direction), but the slash-and-burn type approach to discussion does more to advance division than understanding.

Of course, that may be some people's intention.

[H2O Man]

31. I find myself

wondering sometimes .... there are always going to be differences of opinion, some quite strongly felt. There were in the '04 primaries, and I think that by reading between the lines, we could identify a few differences in this year's primary, as well. But in the past two weeks, I've noticed some of the most curious conflicts between DUers who likely agree on about 75-80% of things.

Part of it may be intentional, and part may be human nature. Either way, if the majority of people make an attempt to raise the level of discourse, we can accomplish that goal.

I'm glad that Dylan went electric, though I still really enjoy listening to his older songs.

[AtomicKitten]

23. Dissent is vital for a healthy democracy.

There is obviously a myriad of opinion here at DU, and I like to hear all of it. What I don't like is being summarily dismissed with epithets of "hater" and evasive measures such as impugning the source and an armchair analysis of the poster's character and motivation, everything except discussion of the topic at hand. The ironic part is that I'd be worried if there wasn't dissent. We are thinking creatures and all points of view deserve to be aired as we stand on the brink of a new day in America.

K&R and thanks. :hi:

[H2O Man]

32. In June of '66,

I recall that LBJ spoke about dissent being the "life-breath of democracy, even when it blows heavy." He asked that those who disagreed with "the system" try to suggest a better way. That was the LBJ who believed in the Great Society, of course; the dark side of LBJ was quite the opposite.

DUers should be able to recognize and discuss both sides of issues.

[Gregorian]

24. A closed mind yields closed ears.

That is my personal experience. Sometimes we're so angry before we ever encounter the thing we're angry about. And when we do, we're already angry. Like a gun that is cocked, ready to go off at the first jolt.

I'm trying, but I'm failing in so many ways. People feel threatened. They feel right in their position. And so even listening is impossible.

We need to postpone our resistance. Let the sound in. Otherwise we are closed. And there is no communication.

I only know this through my own experiences. I'm raging pissed off on a few fronts. Jets polluting our skies with noise. Cars roaming the surface of the planet. This is my hotbutton. Nobody can so much as talk to me about it. I'm a gun ready to go off. What I've discovered is that I'm killing myself. I don't even need help from anyone. But it's no different than what you mention.

Gephardt! Thank you. I've been trying to think of his name for ages. I just did a view of his Wiki page. I was reminded that he was the first to call bush a "miserable failure". I knew at that moment that he was a special man. Then I noticed his lobbying stance on the Armenian genocide bill in Congress. Now I'm convinced this guy is on our side.

Let's try to be open. Hold off the judgment until at least after hearing. Listening is a rare commodity. Art comes from seeing and hearing. Without which we'd be barren.

[H2O Man]

33. The only innocent

Hurricane that I've ever met used to tell me that a closed mind, like a closed room, rapidly becomes stuffy.

There are no super heroes in Washington, DC. None. Just imperfect human beings. The funny thing is that, despite all of our differences, we all have a lot in common as human beings. One example of that is that we really are not sitting on a wall, where some will be on one side doing just fine, and others will be on the other side, carrying the weight. The damage that our culture has done, is doing, and is going to continue to do unless we change our ways -- soon -- will poison our water, land, and air to such an extent that we face a common future. That alone should be reason to find common ground.

Thank you for contributing to this thread. I always look forward to what you have to say.

[Kind of Blue]

27. Thanks, H2O Man!

Here's to your message spreading throughout DU.:toast:

[H2O Man]

34. Thank you.

As an old pug, I'd like to think that we are taking a minute off between rounds. But we have to stay focused on fighting the Good Fight. We should appreciate that we are on the same team!

[Cults4Bush]

28. "Times change. People change. The history of politics..."

... is often best understood in terms of temporary alliances of convenience"- H2O Man

This single piece of advice a few years back from you, has guided my perception and understanding of politics more so than any other. Through the seemingly simple prism of this viewpoint it makes dealing with Obama and DU related issues much easier.

When one sits back and does not choose a posting side in the "appointment wars", it becomes almost comically obvious that there's enough hypocrisy on most sides to satisfy an immoral feast on Justice Scalias bench. Sadly it really isnt a whole hell of a lot of people though who stir the pot by being rude and downright mean. Which in turn sure makes it hard for the more eloquent among us to even try putting forth a viewpoint. There's vehemence and vitriol here but then again its only ever been an alliance of convenience. It really is all quite temporary.

Once more, a heartfelt thank you :)

[H2O Man]

35. Yes! I remember that!

And that fits quite well today, in the current circumstance.

Sometimes I think that the angry OPs and threads with the most hostility get the most attention here. That's a shame. We do not gain by willingly putting on psychological handcuffs.

[byronius]

29. That's it. I'm putting you 'Ignore'. I've had enough of your peacemaking nonsense.

Never shall I ignore your wise words, Mr. O'Waterman.

[H2O Man]

36. Thanks!

There are times that I'd like to put myself on "ignore." My wife has told me that I'm the only person she knows who could start a heated debate in an empty room. There are, of course, a number of DUers who could give me a run for my money in that area.

[Lilith Velkor]

38. I recently discovered it's still possible to have an actual conversation here

Of course, there was an effort to prevent it, but a futile one.

And it turns out that those with whom I have bickered most bitterly have more in common with me than I thought. So things don't seem so bad, after all.

[Me.]

41. Can Only Reccommend Threads Started In The Last 24 Hours

It's the thought that counts...?