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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:00 AM
Original message
Should President Obama prosecute John Kerry and Hillary Clinton
for war crimes? I mean they voted for the IWR, an illegal war that resulted in the death of countless innocents? And please don't bother with the "they were lied to defense". Shouldn't every congress member who voted for the IWR be prosecuted for war crimes if we prosecute bushco? Weren't they his collaborators?

And what exactly are the charges that should be brought against them all?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. He should threaten to do that to them until they turn State's Evidence.
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DemzRock Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. NO! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 11:05 AM by glenhappy
No, Congress was misled by fake intel. And I believe the war resolutions were not supposed to be used the way Bush used them, no? Weren't the resolutions supposed to be used to force Saddam to abide by the UN, and war was not supposed to be jumped into so quickly?



Sorry, dude, the lied to defense is VERY applicable.

What are you, a troll?

Is this post supposed to piss people off?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I suggest you read Pat Leahy's speech
prior to the vote in which he said clearly that the vote was illegal and stated that the intelligence was conflicting and did not support the prez.
No, I'm not a troll. I'm just trying to point out that the demands for prosecution of bushco by Obama bring with them, some interesting dilemmas.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Biden voted for it too
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. bliff
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 12:00 PM by niceypoo
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Maybe we should read Hillary Clinton's speech in which she said:
President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=233783

Maybe they should have known better, but I continue to believe that those who voted for the IWR thought they were doing the right thing. Hindsight is always 20/20.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Huh? Did everyone who voted for the IWR make up
lies so people would vote for it?
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. Don't forget Biden! String 'em up! (check this DU conversation out)
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 11:07 AM by FormerRushFan
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. wow! Those were harsh comments! nt
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. That thread helps to put a lot of the DU Hillary Hate in perspective. n/t
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yeah, we really like to eat our own. I guess all is forgiven now that he is our VP
maybe people will give the same courtesy to Hillary. I didn't like the Iraq war vote but the Dems did not start this, Shrub did and the blame lies with him.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Members of Congress can't be prosecuted for their votes.
A president can be prosecuted for ordering an illegal act.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. This'll be interesting.
:popcorn:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. You're confusing a vote for the IWR with lying, manipulating evidence and launching an illegal war.
Bush should be prosecuted for war crimes.

July 5, 2002

Iraq once again rejects new UN weapons inspection proposals.

<...>

November 13, 2002

Iraq accepts U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 and informs the UN that it will abide by the resolution.

Weapons inspectors arrive in Baghdad again after a four-year absence.

link



Following the mandate of the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, Saddam Hussein allowed UN inspectors to return to Iraq in November 2002. UNMOVIC led inspections of alleged chemical and biological facilities in Iraq until shortly before the U.S. invasion of Iraq in March 2003, but did not find any weapons of mass destruction. Based on its inspections and examinations during this time, UNMOVIC inspectors determined that UNSCOM had successfully dismantled Iraq’s unconventional weapons program during the 1990s.

link


Lying to Congress



We Still Have a Choice on Iraq

By JOHN F. KERRY
Published: September 6, 2002

It may well be that the United States will go to war with Iraq. But if so, it should be because we have to -- not because we want to. For the American people to accept the legitimacy of this conflict and give their consent to it, the Bush administration must first present detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and then prove that all other avenues of protecting our nation's security interests have been exhausted. Exhaustion of remedies is critical to winning the consent of a civilized people in the decision to go to war. And consent, as we have learned before, is essential to carrying out the mission. President Bush's overdue statement this week that he would consult Congress is a beginning, but the administration's strategy remains adrift.

Regime change in Iraq is a worthy goal. But regime change by itself is not a justification for going to war. Absent a Qaeda connection, overthrowing Saddam Hussein -- the ultimate weapons-inspection enforcement mechanism -- should be the last step, not the first. Those who think that the inspection process is merely a waste of time should be reminded that legitimacy in the conduct of war, among our people and our allies, is not a waste, but an essential foundation of success.

If we are to put American lives at risk in a foreign war, President Bush must be able to say to this nation that we had no choice, that this was the only way we could eliminate a threat we could not afford to tolerate.

In the end there may be no choice. But so far, rather than making the case for the legitimacy of an Iraq war, the administration has complicated its own case and compromised America's credibility by casting about in an unfocused, overly public internal debate in the search for a rationale for war. By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration has diminished its most legitimate justification of war -- that in the post-Sept. 11 world, the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable and that his refusal to allow in inspectors is in blatant violation of the United Nations 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power.

The administration's hasty war talk makes it much more difficult to manage our relations with other Arab governments, let alone the Arab street. It has made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the implications of war for themselves rather than keep the focus where it belongs -- on the danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his deadly arsenal. Indeed, the administration seems to have elevated Saddam Hussein in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he would never have achieved on his own.

There is, of course, no question about our capacity to win militarily, and perhaps to win easily. There is also no question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction, and his success can threaten both our interests in the region and our security at home. But knowing ahead of time that our military intervention will remove him from power, and that we will then inherit all or much of the burden for building a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, is all the more reason to insist on a process that invites support from the region and from our allies. We will need that support for the far tougher mission of ensuring a future democratic government after the war.

The question is not whether we should care if Saddam Hussein remains openly scornful of international standards of behavior that he agreed to live up to. The question is how we secure our rights with respect to that agreement and the legitimacy it establishes for the actions we may have to take. We are at a strange moment in history when an American administration has to be persuaded of the virtue of utilizing the procedures of international law and community -- institutions American presidents from across the ideological spectrum have insisted on as essential to global security.

For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise. Some in the administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act. But until we have properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow citizens and our allies that we really have no other choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral decision-making in going to war against Iraq.

John F. Kerry, a Democrat, is a senator from Massachusetts.


Kerry speech on national security -- Georgetown University, January 23, 2003

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.


It's absurd to claim that Kerry was Bush's collaborator. No one was more forceful than Kerry in calling out Bush prior to his illegal invasion of Iraq.

Bush is a war criminal.




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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. a Vote in Congress cannot be a criminal act unless bribery is involved
so your post is simply an attempt to stir shit.

Here's what Obama has actually said, on the record, about prosecuting buscho crimes:

What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.


http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html

Sounds good to me.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is about the most ignorant thread Ive ever seen!
What a stroke of genius! Must have been a hell of a brainstorm!

Congratulations
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes. Every one of them is complicit with fascism.
You should know me well enough to know if I'm serious.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. You're misunderstanding on purpose.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. If he can prove that they knew they were voting on trumped up evidence
and that they knew they were participating in a lie which resulted in the murder of a million Iraqi civilians,

fuck yes.

It's accountability.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. Technically, every person involved in making the war possible should be prosecuted
but it's not practical. We are forced to move on.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. You forgot Joe Biden, but why are you discouraging people from wanting Bush held accountable?
Bush's crimes don't compare even mildly to any Democrat in the world, and your analogy of Kerry and Clinton to Bush's crimes is blatantly absurd.
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Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. On the charge of "being big stupid poopyheads who smell bad."
At least that's the vibe I'm getting from some folks here.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. We need to re-initiate the "Let It Sink" strategy
:eyes:
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Bramlet Abercrombie Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. straw man
stop being an idiot. sometimes DU scares me.
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. I always find it funny people post stuff from FreeRepublic noting its absurdity...
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 12:06 PM by S_E_Fudd
Without a hint of irony...

One only needs to read the op to confirm the whacked out left and the whacked out right are merely two sides of the same coin...
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
25. Clearly you're trying to make a point of some kind, but I for one don't see it....
Maybe it's a (non-)reference to another thread somewhere.
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