Thom Hartmann - Three Cups of Tea for Rick Warren

[Quixote1818]

Rick Warren is providing the invocation for the presidential inauguration. As a pastor whose books have been read by tens of millions of Americans and whose voice is respected by an equal or larger number, he has tremendous influence and power. And as an open homophobe who aggressively works to wound gay people in this country (as well as pretty much anybody else who doesn’t believe with his own particular and peculiar recently-invented version of Christian theology) he should be the guy with the bull’s-eye on his back for the progressive movement.

But consider that metaphor for a moment. In Pakistan there are entire regions filled with people who not only hate gays but hate Americans as well, regardless of religion. We've tried bombing them (as the Soviets did, and the British before them). Three consecutive Western empires have tried threatening them, starving them, poisoning them, infiltrating them, and overpowering them - all without success.



And then Greg Mortenson came to one of their villages, had three cups of tea with them (a metaphor for hospitality - they nursed him back to health after a mountain climbing injury - and the title of his best-selling book), and now in dozens of these formerly Taliban-controlled villages the people are rejecting the Taliban, embracing modernity, and openly proclaiming themselves as our friends.

Continued: http://www.thomhartmann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1126&Itemid=9

[Clio the Leo]

1. I'll take it. NT

[lostnotforgotten]

2. I Like Thom Very Much But He Has Missed The Bus On This Issue

eom

[Quixote1818]

6. So you think calling the ass holes ass holes is going to bring them more quickly over to our side?

Good luck with that. We can all agree Rick Warren is an ass hole but even hate which is learned can be unlearned if you do it the right way. Building up a brick wall between us and them is the worst way to start helping move them over to our side.

[lostnotforgotten]

8. I Think Outing Them And Ignoring Them Is The More Appropriate Tact - Enabling Them Is A Mistake

eom

[Quixote1818]

12. How is Obama enabling them on that issue when he says he disagrees with them?

Seems to me Obama just got a hell of a lot of people to start listening to him that otherwise would have closed their ears.

[lostnotforgotten]

14. Giving Bigots A National Stage Is Enabling Them

eom

[Quixote1818]

15. I see your point but in the long run I think this will pay off for our side.

Millions who otherwise would fight Obama on every issue will now be open to listening to him and what he believes because he treated them with some respect while at the same time saying he disagreed with Rick on gay Marriage.

[lostnotforgotten]

16. The Only Way It Might Pay Off Is The Humiliation And Outrage That Will Be Generated By Exposing

Warren's bigotry.

Given the right wing friendly media, that seems a long shot.

[Quixote1818]

17. Perhaps, but building up a wall between Obama and the evangelicals would most certainly

slow down progress that could be made. People can change and even if the Evangelicals don't come over right away on gay marriage then maybe they will come over on other important issues?

Gay Marriage will become legal across the country sooner or later. That is just how things are headed. As those over 50 start dying off the younger crowd is much, much more open to gay rights. Over the next 20 years a lot will change in our direction.

[lostnotforgotten]

32. Obama Can Do Whatever He Wants With The Evangelicals

He is building a wall between himself and me.

I have already built a wall between the evangelicals and myself.

They are crazy people that I want no part of for the rest of my natural born days.

[Maven]

19. I think people like Warren who derive profit and power from hate have no interest

in coming to our side.

And I think people like you who would defend Obama no matter what decision he made have no interest in seeing the harm this will cause.

[EFerrari]

3. Giving this @sshole stage time is not engaging him in the community.

It's inviting him to stay in the same privileged bubble he lives in while he harms the lives of others. Sorry, I have a lot of respect for Thom and for his thoughts but disagree completely on this one.

[Quixote1818]

4. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

That's just common sense.

[QC]

5. OK. Which of your basic human rights shall we use as the honey

with which we will catch these big, juicy flies?

[Quixote1818]

10. By building a wall between them and us, will only slow the process down.

In fact it will simply make them rally around their hate. Maybe you don't believe those that hate can change but I do. It can be unlearned and that is a process that takes time and diplomacy.

[QC]

11. That doesn't answer the question.

Which of your rights are you willing to have put up for a popular vote?

Believe it or not, for some of us this is not all just an interesting abstraction.

[Quixote1818]

13. We are all on the same side here. Some of us just think there are other ways to

get the change you and I both desire. I am not willing to have any rights put up for popular vote and I think Thom is exactly right in how to move things in our direction.

[FreeState]

7. Then Obama needs to stop spaying the gay community with vinegar n/t

[EFerrari]

9. And has nothing to do with this situation, which is allowing a privileged asshole

to behave like a privileged asshole and look holy while he's at it.

[Quixote1818]

18. This is not about Rick Warren

It's about creating an environment where the Evangelicals will approach Obama with an open mind and not with closed ears where they fight him on everything before they even know what they are fighting for. You must first reach your hand out to that group so that their minds will begin to open and they can begin to contemplate our ideas rather than shutting us off instantly because we started bombing them with anger. I think a lot of people would be surprised how much people can change if you show them a little respect up front. Obama hasn't discarded his stance, he is just trying to create an opening with the other side so we can move them in our direction. We all saw how well calling Iran and South Korea part of the access of evil worked. So, why treat the Evangelicals the same way Bush treated Iran and N. Korea? All that does is cause them to work harder for their warped ideology.

[Maven]

20. They'll close their ears right back up as soon as he does something remotely pro-gay or pro-choice.

Which means either this "outreach" will be pointless or he'll never do anything remotely pro-gay because it might upset his new converts.

[Quixote1818]

25. So then the experience Thom Hartman is pointing to is bunk?

Looks to me like it can work with many people. The people Hartman is referring to were at lest if not more dogmatic than those in the Evangelical community here in the US. We have tried the approach of throwing anger bombs at countries like Iran and N. Korea and see where that got us. It just reinforced there dogmatic thinking.

[Maven]

26. It's the wrong analogy.

Putting Rick Warren on a pedestal won't encourage evangelicals to see the truth about GLBTs. It will only give Rick Warren, a man who spreads hate about GLBTs, more credibility with a broader audience. This will do zero to encourage "understanding" because there is no compromise with hate. Hate, unlike the unfortunate deception Obama is using to justify this move, is not a "viewpoint" on which there can be compromise.

Bigots throughout history have not been overcome by giving them a voice; they have been overcome by doing what was right entirely despite them.

[EFerrari]

24. Well, I lived with a psychotic person for 12 years.

I know all about building trust.

A national stage is the wrong venue for that. Thom is wrong. Obama is wrong and he's probably regretting the hell out of it right now. Giving this hateful man such a prominent place in the ceremony was a major mistake. Obama needs to fix this. He's a smart person. I trust he will.

edit for tone

[Quixote1818]

29. You make a good point about giving Warren a national stage

It strikes me as a little creepy too. I am not fully comfortable with that and perhaps Obama didn't think things through the best way. But I think he was trying to do the right thing by reaching out to the Evangelicals so at least some would open up there minds about the more liberal things Obama plans to do. Keep in mind that Obama hasn't compromised on this issue. Yet anyway.

[EFerrari]

30. I know he has a whole buffet on his plate. I do trust him to recover

and to make this right. He's likely learned something and that may not wind up being a bad thing. :)

[delete_bush]

22. Why catch the flies in the first place?

For better or worse, and I think for the worse, we have a 2 party system. The other side is made up of disgusting filth, represented in part by Warren. We need to put the boot heel to the neck of these scum and kick them to the curb.

The evangelical right wing nut jobs SHOULD be on the other side. I don't want to be in any way associated with these morons. Let them rot in hell.

[gblady]

21. I think Thom...

explained it very well on his show today.
I agree with his stance.

[Maven]

23. Deep down I think you know this is bullshit.

This is balm for your conscience, nothing more.

[Quixote1818]

27. That is a very, very disrespectful post.

Who are you to question my integrity? Perhaps try searching some of my old threads and you will see I am very pro-gay. Here for example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1143242

Try opening up your mind and thinking outside the box.

[Maven]

28. ?

How does that post show your commitment to equal rights?

What?

What I do remember is your willingness to dismiss those who were upset about Donnie McClurkin during the primaries. And yet here we are again.

Perhaps you need to reassess where you actually stand.

[Quixote1818]

31. Sorry, you have the wrong person

I don't even remember posting one way or another on Donnie McClurkin. I was supporting Edwards at the time all that came out so I wouldn't have been defending Obama over that. I don't really know much abut the Donnie McClurkin thing.