Must I spell it out?

[Syrinx]

People who believe in fundamentalist religion are easily persuadable.

That's what the Rick Warren episode is all about.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Yes, spell it out.

You think Ol' Rev. Warren is going get up and start preaching about how good the gays are? You think that him having an INTERNATIONAL forum, as known bigot, is going to make those "easily persuadable" fundies are suddenly going to "love" Obama? Seriously, get a grip. This decision was a disaster.

[Syrinx]

2. I don't "think" anything you accuse me of thinking

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Well, then do as I sugessted...spell it out.

[Syrinx]

4. I said it in my OP

Obama is trying to make allies, so he can pass him program.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. You are funny.

:rofl:

As simple as you think fundies may be (and I can't say I wouldn't disagree), I think you are way off base on this one. Having a gay-hating fundie preacher give a speech is not going to change their minds, anymore than it will change his (the homophobe asshole giving the speech).


(Seriously, mods & admins....can changes be made to the dictionary for spell check at DU?! "Homophobe" needs to be added!)

[Pale Blue Dot]

5. "People who believe in fundamentalist religion are easily persuadable."

:rofl:

Yeah, all you have to do is use logic and reason with them! :rofl:

Funniest post of the day, but the day is young.

[jonnyblitz]

6. no shit!!! i haven't laughed this hard this early in a long time!!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[HamdenRice]

7. Obama is trying to build a supermajority for at least 2 years, and you're right

that a certain portion of the religious right will look at Warren and say, "I support the president." Not much reasoning, not much analysis, but some extra support as he pushes through health care and economic recovery packages.

I think most DUers, not being of evangelical mindset, can't fathom that just having Warren up there will mean, for several million people, a thought bubble to the effect: I guess he isn't a secret Muslim; I guess he isn't the anti-Christ.

Every little bit helps.

[Solon]

8. Helps with what? OK, so let's say the evangelicals don't think Obama's the anti-Christ...

Hey, its a long shot, but let's say it happens. Then Obama pushes for the repeal of DOMA, or DADT, or pushes to pass ENDA. What the hell do you think these people are going to do, they are NOT going to change their minds about gay people in 6 months, or a year, or even 2 years. To persuade them will take decades. So they abandon him, so what exactly would he have accomplished with Warren again?

[jonnyblitz]

11. you are wasting you time with that one. he is much smarter than

you and you just won't get it.:eyes: :hi:

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. But wait... you could say he's almost "evangelical" in his support for Obama.

So he should be easily persuadable, right? :shrug:

[Blarch]

13. go lay down.

You DO know that Obama received more evangeligal votes than Kerry ?

That means he already converted some ... so your theory just went out the window ....again.

[Solon]

14. Do you have anything substantive to contribute, or just snark?

And, might I add, my argument is not only reasonable, but most likely an accurate predictor of the truth. So the fact of the matter is that you have no argument, so you respond with snark.

[Blarch]

16. You are implying he can't convert these people.

I pointed out that it is already happening. You are wrong.

[Solon]

18. Those people were ALREADY CONVERTED, or they were anti-Bush...

Do you understand what I'm saying, or do you need me to write it in crayon, in big letters?

[lapfog_1]

21. Actually, anti McCain.

They really never forgave McCain for the comments he made about them after 2000. And choosing Palin only brought a percentage back into the fold.

Had Palin been on the top of ticket, Obama would have been drubbed in the evangelical vote. Fortunately for 2012 (should she somehow get the nod), she will scare the bejeebus out of the merely sort of conservative, the middle, and the left and Obama will win in a huge landslide.

(even the LGBT folks will be back voting for him, because, after all, do you want to see a fundie whackjob bigot giving the invocation or RECEIVING the invocation??? Sad but true.)

[Solon]

23. And I'm sure a large number of them decided to stay home...

I think people are making the mistake of assuming Evangelicals are monolithic. Almost a third are actually somewhat liberal, even socially, its the other 2/3rds that are part of the Religious Right.

[depakid]

28. Sometimes even fundies vote their pocketbooks

and if ever there was a time that pocketbooks would trump religious/cultural beliefs- it would have been this year,

In other words- your conclusion that anyone's been "converted" is spurious; had the Republican run a competent candidate- or had the economy not collapsed, Obama could well have fared worse than Kerry.

[HamdenRice]

15. Do you remember the Clinton years?

From the very beginning, the RW noise machine didn't just oppose the Clintons; they demonized them. They were drug dealers out of Mena; they had Vince Foster killed; Hillary was a man eating lesbian; Bill raped dozens of women and used the Arkansas state troopers to scare the victims; the Clintons had made billions on white water; and on and on and on.

The OP makes an important point: the rw, especially the religious right, does not think rationally. Hence the rw noise machine does not reason with them; it inflames them with faith based nonsense (and I don't mean religious faith based; just any irrational nonsense that can be taken without reasoning).

The demonization of Obama began before he even took office. You remember the lady at the McCain rally who called Obama a Muslim, right? He's a secret terrorist; he's a Muslim; he's the anti-Christ.

If one of the leaders of the evangelicals "blesses" the new administration, then Obama can't be the anti-Christ, according to their limited logic. He can't be a secret Muslim terrorist, or pastor Rick would be wrong.

This has nothing to do with Obama changing Warren's mind about anything, let alone about GLBT issues. It has to do with insulating Obama from a certain amount of opposition from a certain number of evangelicals for a certain amount of time.

I think it's a smart, strategic thing to do. Politics is all about holding your nose and shaking hands to get things done.

[Solon]

17. As given, during the Clinton years, the rightwing noise machine backfired...

badly, I might add, he was the most popular outgoing president for a reason. I do not think Obama would have been any different, and would have gained in popularity over his term(or terms), without the need for this...pastor being invited to his Inauguration.

[HamdenRice]

19. Except that Clinton didn't get any of his agenda passed. Where's Hillary care?

Where is the desegregation of GLBT people in the military? Where is "ending welfare" with comprehensive job training, education benefits, and child care -- as opposed to "ending welfare" by throwing people off the rolls?

All of Clinton's agenda was scuttled by the right wing noise machine, by generating irrational opposition to the Clintons.

Clinton was popular because of his management of the economy, but his agenda was reduced to stupid triangulating crap like school uniforms and more cops and prisons. He went from GLBT desegregation to signing DOMA.

If Obama insulates himself from that crap, all the better. Repeat: If "Pastor Rick" blesses the inauguration, then for at least some of them, Obama can't be the anti-Christ, which means a few million people can't be rallied to stop universal health care and the massive stimulus package.

[Pale Blue Dot]

20. That's because Clinton decided rather than fight for what's right,

and use his natural intelligence and charisma to persuade others, it would be best to pragmatically appease and pander.

That attitude sure helped him and America in the long run, didn't it?

[HamdenRice]

25. No, Clinton didn't decide shit. Newt Gingrich "decided" for him.

The Clintons lost, period. They weren't able to get their agenda passed through Congress, even with a majority in Congress. By 1994, he lost his majority and Gingrich was rolling the Clintons regularly.

That's when they "salvaged" their presidency by focusing on shit like school uniforms.

[Solon]

22. And what do you think Obama will do when all these Evangelicals oppose him on some of those issues?

Is he going to stand by his principles or try to win their favor? Like I said, any "Warren bump" is going to be temporary, at best. Once Obama advocates for Gay rights, or protecting choice, they are going to call him the anti-Christ all over again.

[HamdenRice]

24. "any "Warren bump" is going to be temporary, at best" -- Good!

Good. Fine. Most presidents only get 2 years of untrammeled power anyway -- until the first mid term congressional elections.

Then fuck them.

But you won't see any "social issues" on the front burner until after universal health care, stimulus, and the extraction from Iraq.

[Solon]

26. Why not, and why should GLBT people wait for them?

The Iraq extraction is going to take at least a year. I can understand an emergency economic stimulus package taking place first on his agenda, but Universal Health Care is a different kettle of fish, and can't he multitask as well, so why should the repeal of DOMA, DADT, or the passage of an ENDA bill have to wait?

[HamdenRice]

27. "can't he multitask as well" -- I'm sure he can. The American public can't

not with the noise machine distracting them. Look at history. If he goes for DOMA first, he loses on DOMA and he loses on everything else.

If he does health care, stimulus and ending the war first, and successfully, he might rack up FDR like popularity, so that he can get anything else on the progressive agenda.

I am stupefied by the inability or unwillingness of some people to look at hard facts and political history -- or to call those who do, "homophobes."

It's a simple choice: (1) put off DOMA and social issues, and get everything including DOMA; or (2) try social issues first, lose on social issues and lose on everything else.

Take your choice.

Thank God that in the real world, in real life GLBT human rights organizations, adults are in charge who don't think like DUers.

[Solon]

29. You do realize that a large number of those human rights organization are coming out opposing...

Warren being at the inauguration. In addition, its just as likely that, regardless of the ORDER in which things are done, DOMA, ENDA and DADT will never pass, at least not without strong opposition. I doubt Obama is ever going to get FDR popularity, he's almost there, but its going to be difficult, and that popularity can disappear in an eyeblink over any number of issues, not just civil rights issues.

[HamdenRice]

30. Of course they are. Good for them.

But they are not, like certain DUers, setting up web sites to discourage GLBT support for the Democratic Party. That's why they are grownups. They moderate their opposition in terms of long term strategy.

As for the order, of course it's important. That's a big part of the job of Speaker and Senate Majority Leader. Procedure is everything.

And if you take the attitude that it will never happen, well it never will happen because there won't be the troops to make it happen.

[lapfog_1]

9. Yup, sure thing pal...

Obama is going to install Rick Warren as the new "America's pastor, the pastor to Presidents" (replacing Billy Graham) and through this single act (plus a bit of side conversation), he will CONVERT this man of Jeezus to accept equality for all, up to and including the right of the homosexual to be married, something that Obama himself professes to not believe in. And with him, some 20 million homophobic asshole wing nut Christian evangelicals will promise to never again speak out about the gay, and will welcome them into their homes, churches and community, and will NOT seek to convert even one more atheist or agnostic to their fundie beliefs! To the point where they even accept SCIENCE into their lives... and accept that the world is 3 or 4 billion years old, and that we are the products of many trials BY NATURE of evolution, adapting to our world even as it changed over the long years of it's existence.

If only the homosexual would see this and be patient... maybe 10 or 20 or 50 more years. After all, look how long the black folk had to wait for their rights. Don't see any more racial prejudice here anymore. Who knows, 50 years from now it might be possible for gays to walk the streets and hold hands without being beaten to death.

Right?

So please homosexuals, atheists, agnostics, and reasonable people... just ignore this bigot on the stage being presented to the world as the face of "new" America. Obama's America. Because Obama is TRYING to reach him and his followers. These people are notoriously weak minded and easily brainwashed, er, persuaded. Just look at all of the previous examples of Jeezus freaks who... uh no, never mind.

(oh, hey, Iran... we'd like you to not pay attention that America's new President has, as his Secretary of State, someone that called for preemptive nuclear war with your country. And this new America's pastor guy, a sort of radical cleric, has called for the assassination of your President. I'm sure he didn't really mean it, cause like he is a man of the bible and someplace in the bible it says to not kill other people, I think. Peace out!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, oh, for the really really dense out there... this screed is a bit of :sarcasm:

[wellst0nev0ter]

31. People Who Posts OPs Like This

Must really think gays are barking idiots :eyes: