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Has your candidate turned you into an anti-war leftist neo-hawk?

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:28 PM
Original message
Has your candidate turned you into an anti-war leftist neo-hawk?
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 11:31 PM by DuctapeFatwa
The race for the Democratic nomination has spawned one of the strangest political creatures in recent memory: the leftist anti-war neo-hawk.

Suddenly, people who marched against the war, whose fingers ache from writing scathing rips of the bloodlust of the bush regime, find themselves on the bad acid side of the looking glass, dripping sweat onto their PEACE shirts squeezing arguments for continuing bush's imperialist crusade out of the turnip of their chosen candidate's conviction that he and he alone is the best executive administrator of America's new colony.

Yes, more Americans will die with mine than yours, says one, but less than with bush, but even if it is more, it is better than bush.

While some may believe that if their candidate wins, Iraqis will cease complaining when their relatives are murdered, serene in the knowledge that they were murdered by a real Democrat and not bush, it is unlikely that a great many Iraqis share this view.

To their credit, most neo-hawks steadfastly refuse to discuss this issue.

When asked point-blank how they justify their previous anti-war stance with their current position that their candidate is the best man to run the war, they may dismiss the question by pointing out that their guy's website doesn't call it running the war, but most of the time they just stick out their bottom lip, cross their arms and tell you that their candidate is the best and will win. So There!

Some look up at you, eyes racked with the pain of the heavy load of the white man's burden, and talk about America's responsibility to "finish the job," "clean up our mess." Ask them if someone comes into their house, trashes the place, beats up the kids, kicks the dog, how they would feel about that person moving in with them for a while to clean up the mess - wouldn't they say, "oh, please, you've done enough. really."

If asked whether they would fight if another country invaded the US, their brows almost furrow for a second, then they tell you, with a saucy toss of the head, that well, that would be "different."

People who interrupt the neo-hawk's earnest discussions of military strategy and weapons efficiency to ask such questions are troublemakers. They are disloyal, disruptive, divisive. Some even call attention to the candidates' own words about war. It's not easy being a neo-hawk, people attacking your candidate like that.

Some neo-hawks patiently try to explain why their candidate's plan for outsourcing the occupation is so nifty. Just don't ask them why war crimes committed by Belgian soldiers will be any less horrific for their victims. Don't ask why the US agent that went along with 12 years of devastating sanctions, sat still for the invasion and rubber-stamped the occupation will be seen by the Iraqis as angels of mercy. And don't ask why all the candidates agree that whichever countries are cajoled, bribed or threatened into sending their sons and daughters, wearing whatever color hat, to fight the Iraqi resistance, the US should be in charge of it all.

It's all for the Iraqi people, you see. All those deaths, all those kids without feet, hands, eyes, all those homes destroyed, all the families robbed of their little under the mattress cash and jewelry, all those people, kids included, tied up and forced to kneel and starve and rot in the "coalition camps," all those disappeared, all are for the simple, childlike Iraqi people, who need a firm hand. They may complain, but they secretly respect you for it.

Just don't call the neo-hawks colonialists. They don't like that one bit.

Candidate disclaimer: I do not support any of the candidates.


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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd love to go with a candidate that will get us out immediately
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 11:36 PM by JVS
But it doesn't look like one of those candidates will be nominated. So I guess we are left fighting over which onewill make the occupation least unpleasant. It sucks but that seems to be the way of things.

on edit: if a pure bail now candidate looks like they are in this race when my primary comes, I belong to them. But if not I'll just have to minimize damage
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. why? because YOU won't vote for that candidate
"I'd love to go with a candidate that will get us out immediately"

That's great...


"But it doesn't look like one of those candidates will be nominated"

Because you won't vote for one of those candidates. Thanks ... for nothing!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. That candidates my first choice so back off
But I live in PA, by the time I get to vote it will probably be over. If it isn't over and Kucinich has 0 delagates I'm not pissing away my vote.
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I live in PA as well.
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 03:04 AM by FubarFly
If Kucinch is in the running at that point, then either disaster has befallen Dean, or Kucinich has come on strong in a near miraculous way. In either instance he has a good chance to get my vote..

Dean and Kucinich's Iraq plans aren't so far apart. Dean estimates a slower withdrawal period, but the truth is, no one can predict UN involvement, and no one knows how the conditions will change by January, 2005. We created the hell in Iraq, and unfortunately, we should be the ones who bear the brunt of the sacrifice. And that does mean stabilizing the government before we withdrawal- something that the neocons are spending little effort doing. This cold truth absolutely breaks my heart. Iraq will continue to be a tragedy no matter who is elected president. There are no easy moral solutions. No matter who wins, harsh reality will trump even the best laid plans.



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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. colonialist?
I thought that it was imperialists or maybe occupationists.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Certs is an imperialist mint and a colonialist mint, too!

Try calling them imperialists or occupationists.

They will get just as mad.

Or just as weepy, if they are White Men Living with Burdens.
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Priceless post DTF.
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 12:28 AM by Wwagsthedog
Now I know for sure that you aren't a demoblican or a republicrat.

And I can feel the heat???????????
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks ! A thought provoking post ! -eom-
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Another pearl! Thank you DTF!
:loveya:
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. Dont you know them a-rabs couldnt figure out to do whats best for them
And 'merica knows whats best for them after all we are the masters of FreedomTM and DeMOCKracyTM like i said before we need to get the troops outta there.We are invading their country alotta people say they would fight if usa was invaded what is the diff in iraq? I dont know about putting the UN in Tariq Ali wrote a fantastic article on how the UN might not be the best choice to be put in charge because they put on the sanctions which killed 1.5 million iraqis and they are distrustful (with good cause) of the un. Maybe what is good for the iraqis is good for all people.Self Determination
I myself have know clue whatso ever to do
here is the article http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1103-07.htm
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. Dean, Clark, and Kerry want to "get the job done in Iraq"
don't you know it, there is still oil to steal, assets to privatize, and democracy to impose!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. What is Gephardt up to?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. touche...
At least Gephardt doesn't want to send our jobs to Iraq as well, like Dean, Clark, and Kerry do...
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. That is one of his most endearing qualities
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. DTF, enough with the great posts... !
:P

TWL
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rogerhall Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. I never was a pacifist ...
DTF - first I gotta say that is one of my favortie all-time screen names! :}

I waved signs on the Arkansas Capital steps. I told everyone who didn't walk away that it was the worst idea ever. I haven't spoken to my best friend from college in over a year now, because he is 'voting Republican' and thinks that Bush has the Christian integrity our country needs. I sure as hell didn't want to invade anybody.

But I support Clark.

My philosophy:

Don't make war. If you are at war, win.

I don't think it's all that crazy a position, and I don't think that all liberals/progressive/dems are doves.

And frankly, even if we were not embattled, I would prolly still support Clark - I believe he is the best person for the job.

I appreciate your post though, and applaud your position (as compared to the polar opposite, say, Rumsfeld's position; you are the genius and he is fool). Nicely done. :}
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. "Don't make war. If you are at war, win."
We made an illegal war. And now you intend to win it?

If it was illegal in the first place should we not want to stop it?

TWL
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rogerhall Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Then lets sign the Hague thing and extradite Bush ...
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 03:25 AM by rogerhall
But let's not let millions (well, at least thousands) of Iraqis suffer the return of fools.

I'm just not as Idealistic as you ... I just don't think it is practical (or helpful in restoring world credibility) to pull out immediately-if-not-sooner. (ASAP, yes. I would hope our soldiers are keeping their bags packed.)

How do you win? By not fucking up. It is the only 'win' left to us. A return of Sunni rule would be a serious fuck-up.

I could be wrong. It's just what I think.

Edit: Idealistic for Idyllic (man it's late :)
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick!
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ithinkmyliverhurts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. I've found myself more in the camp of
a pro-peace rightist paleo-dove. But that's just me.
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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. The reality, I’m afraid
is that Governor Dean is not against the "war" in Iraq; he was merely against the "invasion" of Iraq.

If nominated, he will be in the untenable position of defending his opposition to the invasion yet defending his support of the occupation. If elected, he will be in the absurd position of being a Commander-in-chief of an occupation force whose initial invasion he opposed.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent post. Why don't you support Kucinich?
You are being kind of a hypocrite because there is a candidate that represents you.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. On the contrary, I would be a hypocrite if I did
"Don't ask why the US agent that went along with 12 years of devastating sanctions, sat still for the invasion and rubber-stamped the occupation will be seen by the Iraqis as angels of mercy. And don't ask why all the candidates agree that whichever countries are cajoled, bribed or threatened into sending their sons and daughters, wearing whatever color hat.."



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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. No!
I can't be a neohawk. I'm a hawk by nature, a dove by choice. The dove is a great teacher; I'll stick to my lessons. Great essay, DTF.

Thanks for brightening up the front page. :hi:
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Brighten the front page once more!
kick :)

TWL
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Light it up,
TWL!

;-)
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
25. Brilliant post
Nothing to add -- simply a smashing piece of writing.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. Candidates don't define MY views. I choose candidates that
best represent my views.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. There ya go!
That is how it is supposed to work.

TWL
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. Woof! Well-the-hell-said!
Definitely up to your usual high standard.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
31. kick for more to read...
TWL
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