Events like the 'Alfalfa Dinner' make me sick.

[Unsane]

An event to celebrate Robert E Lee's birthday? gag! I can't imagine the old traitor would have believed in Obama.

Nothing but a bunch of elitist snobbery while the country's economy goes down the fucking toilet. Supposedly Rumsfeld was there. Federal Marshalls should arrest that scum.

[4lbs]

1. President Obama made a joke at that dinner to that effect.

"If Robert E. Lee were alive today, he'd be 202 years old, and very confused."

[Occam Bandage]

Came in here to say that. nt

[geardaddy]

2. I thought they wer celebrating this dude

[Arkana]

3. If any Confederate General's life is celebrated, it would be Lee's.

Lee joined the Confederacy out of a sense of duty to his home state of Virginia, not because he wanted to protect slavery--and he was initially asked to command the Union Army by Lincoln himself.

[tavalon]

14. Correct

Those who know their history know that Lee is an incredibly nuanced individual who was by far, the best General on either side. He lost not because of strategy and he went to the South out of a sense of duty to his own state (back when states and nation were much looser). Had he taken Lincoln's offer the war would have ended much more swiftly and less bloodily. Too bad.

You should watch Ken Burn's Civil War. It is just amazing. I was so bored by history in school but utterly fascinated by this work and I learned so very much.

[Every Man A King]

19. Not everyone agrees that Lee was better than Grant

As a matter of fact some, like me think Grant was much better. Lee was a tactical genius and a strategic moron while Grant was a genius at both.

[NoPasaran]

23. I wouldn't go so far as to call Lee a strategic moron

I think his main strategic failing is that he saw everything through the prism of the Virginia Theatre and he was able to impose his vision on Jefferson Davis to the detriment of the overall confederate war effort.

But I agree with you that Grant was the superior strategist. He doesn't get nearly the credit for winning the war that he deserves.

[mitchum]

28. Lee was "only following orders" like those other racist losers in the following century

[Zomby Woof]

29. Lee also opposed secession

He met with members of Lincoln's staff who on his behalf, wanted him to command the Union troops. At that time, he affirmed that he believed secession was "anarchy", but that he would go with whatever Virginia decided, because he could never raise his sword against his home. He said he would gladly sacrifice slavery if it would prevent secession. But soon, Virginia cast its lot, and along he went.

He was no traitor - and it was not an easy decision for him. The failure of many on here to distinguish this is not surprising given most DUer's are history lightweights, but also, giving these matters their due analysis denies them their sense of righteous moral indignation - a factor which warps their understanding of history's nuances and complexities. Whether it's the PC (patriotic correctness) of the right, or the PC (political correctness) of the left, neither side serves historical analysis well.

Robert E. Lee has been honored on U.S. postage stamps several times over the past few decades, as recently as a 1995 series commemmorating the war. Also, an act of Congress and a presidential executive order restored his full citizenship in 1975. These honors, large or small, are not bestowed on traitors. (Incidentally, federal law bestowed full U.S. veteran status on Confederate veterans, living and dead, as of 1913).

Lee was a complicated man. He felt that taking a military education was the mistake of his life, and when Grant became president, he was even invited to the White House for a visit - which he accepted. When compatriots of his spoke ill of Grant, Lee would quickly silence them. He remembered Grant's kindness to him at Appomatox, and being a true southern gentleman, never forgot to repay him in kind with respect and dignity.

Lincoln stated in his second inaugural, "with malice toward none, and charity for all". This was intended to set the tone for his post-war aim of reconciliation and forgiveness. Apparently, this message is lost on the Perpetually Sanctimonious and Pure of Morals on DU. They mock people who defend Lee and his decision by saying, "the war is over, get over it, you lost", but seem themselves to be unable to let go of the war, nor are they able to embrace the lessons Lincoln tried to impart.

[Kalyke]

4. Don't know much about Robert E. Lee, do ya?

Since the end of the Civil War, it has often been suggested that Lee was in some sense opposed to slavery. In the period following the Civil War and Reconstruction, and after his death, Lee became a central figure in the Lost Cause interpretation of the war, and as succeeding generations came to look on slavery as a terrible immorality, the idea that Lee had always somehow opposed it helped maintain his stature as a symbol of Southern honor and national reconciliation.
Some of the evidence cited in favor of the claim that Lee opposed slavery, are the manumission of Custis's slaves, as discussed above, and his support, towards the end of the war, for enrolling slaves in the Confederate States Army, with manumission offered as an eventual reward for good service. Lee gave his public support to this idea two weeks before Appomattox, too late for it to do any good for the Confederacy.
In December 1864, Lee was shown a letter by Louisiana Senator Edward Sparrow, written by General St. John R. Liddell, which noted that Lee would be hard-pressed in the interior of Virginia by spring, and the need to consider Patrick Cleburne's plan to emancipate the slaves and put all men in the army that were willing to join. Lee was said to have agreed on all points and desired to get black soldiers, saying that "he could make soldiers out of any human being that had arms and legs."<17>
Another source is Lee's 1856 letter to his wife,<18> which can be interpreted in multiple ways:
“ ... In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

Lee fought for the South because he believed in states rights and because he was a Southerner. He was far more honorable than that lush Grant.

What I find offensive about the dinner is that they're even having such a plush affair while the middle class is starving.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Pff.

"The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Typical white supremacist bullshit.

[SergeyDovlatov]

9. Is that not true?

at least in 'economically and physically' part?

America is still a land of opportunity and people are trying to cheat and fight the immigration law just to get here. (I know I am a recent immigrant myself)

Africa has horrible child mortality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_mortality#Highest_Rates_in_the_World

Sierra Leone - 270 per 1000 births
Angola - 260
Afghanistan - 257 (the only non-african country in the list of worst 20)
Niger - 253
Liberia - 235
...

Whatever indexes or statistics you use. It is pretty bad to be poor in africa. Those on top doing OK, like everywhere else, of course.

[Occam Bandage]

12. "The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race."

Because everyone knows that slavery is necessary for black folks to become civilized. He was against slavery, see, he just understood that slavery was necessary to teach black people how to not be animals...

[SergeyDovlatov]

15. I was responding to HiFructosePronSyrup 'pfft' quote

[Occam Bandage]

17. I know. I believe that's useful context for Lee's claim that blacks were better off

in enslavement than in Africa; he believed that black people were such animals in the wild that they required generations of slavery to teach them how to be civilized. That casts a rather stark shadow over his judgment of the relative merits of living as a slave on a plantation and as a free man in tribal Africa.

[SergeyDovlatov]

20. Yep. Now, I've read the full quote and see your point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. What do you think child mortality was like under slavery?

I once met a holocaust denier who argued "yeah, well, those Jews were so miserable in those camps they probably wished they were dead anyway."

Same sort of apologist bullshit.

[SergeyDovlatov]

16. I was responding to your quote in post #6

namely:


"The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Typical white supremacist bullshit.

[Chulanowa]

22. Your argument is horribly flawed

Africa is in the state it is in now in part because of the slave trade, and the other part due to white colonialism. Africa was actually an okay place to live before the slave trade started. North and West Africa had kingdoms as advanced and civilized as anything Europe or the Near East had to offer. Coastal east Africa was in some ways more advanced, due to trade with Arabia, India, and even China (before China closed its ports and burned all its ships. Weird country).

However, the Europeans did have better guns, and more of them, and used them to very good effect, both as weapons and as trade items, to instigate assassinations and coups in the West African kingdoms, to make the rulers more "friendly" to Europe, and more pliable about the slave trade.

No, sorry. Africa - and Africans with it - would have all been vastly better-off without the slave trade

[SergeyDovlatov]

24. I agree. Mali Empire is another great example of prosperous african kingdom

However, now. This day. With the unfortunate development in african continent as they are, it is better to be in poor in US than poor in africa.

Though, I agree, with alternative historical development, Africa could have been a prosperous and a great place to be.

But, as noted early, I was responding to quote in the post #6 before considered full context in which it was made.

[Solomon]

32. Hell NO IT IS NOT TRUE. Why don't we revise European history?

Let hundreds of thousands of your people, including princes, scientists, musicians, teachers, etc. ripped from your economy for more than four hundred years and lets see where Eurpoe would be today. And don't forget, take only the best. The ill sick and feeble, leave them behind. Take all of the resources out, etc. Still that's not enough. Go ahead and transfer all these riches to another people.

I can't stand that people subscribe to this myth. It ignores the deavstation that occurred to the African continent as though this all happened in a vacuum. It also ignores the ill-gotten fruits obtained by the "superior civilization."

[ncteechur]

35. Lee wasn't against the Union but he couldn't fight against his beloved Virginia.

I believe that Lee would be glad that Obama was at a dinner honoring him.

[Occam Bandage]

10. The "morally" is what really kills that, I think, as the bit about

indefinite enslavement being necessary to civilize blacks properly does. Sounds more like a slavery apologist than an abolitionist.

[dbmk]

21. Might be worth it ..

..to judge such a statement by the scale of the time at which it was made.

I would reckon that most of the people that would be considered progressives at the time, were still prone to hold - or utter for political reasons - opinions that would be considered "white supremacist bullshit" today.

I am rather certain that most men back then would be misogynist racist bigots by todays standard. And the women would only be racist bigots.

[Occam Bandage]

26. ...

[ecstatic]

25. oh please. All claims to being honorable ended when he fought for

the Confederacy. He valued his state/region over humanity. F*ck him.

[Zomby Woof]

31. Sherman OPPOSED enlisting black troops

In fact, many Union officers were outright hostile to the idea of enlisting African Americans in the cause. Had it been done upon the outset of the war, many Union troops would have deserted or resigned en masse out of protest (remember, the sad truth is that the army was never fully integrated until President Truman's executive order some 60 years ago). Sherman was one of the most outspoken against the idea of allowing African American troops. Thankfully, wisdom and justice prevailed, and he was proven wrong.

Racism was unfortunately widespread and nearly universal. St. Lincoln actually endorsed an idea to set up a colony for freed slaves (a la Liberia, which was by and large a failure). What Lee meant in his statement was that slaves (and ex-slaves) were fully American in terms of acculturation. They were no more African than anybody else. It made no sense to him to force expatriation on them, no matter what their fate after the war.

[Occam Bandage]

5. Lee wasn't really a traitor, I don't think.

He had a strong sense of duty towards his government, but he did not define government as we do. He, like many people of the time, believed that the principal seat of sovereignty was the State and not the Federal government; he would have said "these are the United States" and not "this is the United States."

When he found his State and his Federal government at odds, after much deliberation, he decided his duty was to his State.

[Unsane]

7. gimme a break

he sent thousands of poor whites to their death in an effort to sustain an economic system that enslaved millions

let's not get too carried away

[Occam Bandage]

8. He did offer his services to a nation founded on preserving the right to hold slaves.

That, I think, is a reason to deny him the sainthood many would offer him. He was an modern aristocrat who cared more of duty, honor, and glory than of the plight and pain of his fellow man. While that is a common value system for his time, his profession, and his social position, that is still not a value system worth honoring. However, I don't really believe that "traitor" is an appropriate epithet; he truly believed he was fulfilling his honorable duty, though in doing so he discarded any other system of right and wrong.

[NoPasaran]

11. Well, I'll say this for Lee

At the end of the war he told his army that whatever the justice of their cause, they had lost the conflict and it was their duty to return home and be good citizens.

[Harry Monroe]

18. Here in Mississippi, R.E. Lee's birthday is still celebrated in some areas

It is celebrated on M.L. King day but in some backwards areas it is called "Robert E. Lee's Birthday". They have to have MLK day as a holiday by law, but no one said what they actually had to call it. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[PlanetBev]

27. Couldn't say it better myself, Unsane

I hate all these collegial, "pat each other on the back" and waste money phoney get-togethers.

I've become more partisan over the last several years because of Republican abuse and I'm tired of the weenie Democrats partying with the same assholes who've been kicking them to the curb for all these years.

[dpbrown]

30. Isn't Alfalfa the little black kid on The Little Rascals?

If he is, then isn't this the same as sports teams with patently racist names?

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. No:

[question everything]

33. I think that for Obama to be there is the best revenge (nt)