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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 10:30 AM
Original message
Krugman: Obama on Nationalization
February 11, 2009, 9:46 AM

Obama on nationalization

Felix Salmon is impressed by President Obama’s response to a question about nationalization of banks. Me, not so much.

Yes, Obama is impressively articulate and well-informed — and his response shows that he has actually considered the issue. It’s light-years better than what we’ve grown accustomed to in recent years.

But his two main arguments aren’t actually very good. Yes, we have thousands of banks — but the problems are concentrated in a handful of big players. In fact, the Geithner plan, such as it is, already acknowledges this: the “stress test” is to be applied only to banks with assets over $100 billion, of which there are supposed to be around 14.

And the argument that our culture won’t stand for nationalization — well, our culture isn’t too friendly towards bank bailouts of any kind. Yet those bailouts are necessary; and even in America they may be more palatable if taxpayers at least get to throw the bums out.

Oh, and not a week goes by without the FDIC taking several smaller banks into receivership. Nationalization is actually as American as apple pie.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/obama-on-nationalization/


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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
1.  Krugman not impressed. What a surprise?
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 11:23 AM by Thrill
He needs to get laid
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. If you don't have a serious opinion of Krugman's article why did you post here?

It's seems you'd rather engage in the standard personal smear attacks against Krugman since you are incapable of intelligently debating his points.

Perhaps you should look for a trash talk board to post your comments.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. because he can post any fucking thing he wants, it's an open message board.
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 01:06 PM by dionysus
paul, is that you?

:rofl:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. I hope you continue to post more of Robert Reich's critiques of Obama as well.
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 11:44 AM by AtomicKitten
Obviously not a big hit here at DU ----> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8186044 probably because Reich is civilized and professional in his criticism, unlike Krugman whose partisan hits (edited: on Obama, for the hard of reading) disguised as economic advice seem to be a big hit here at DU.

Hmmmm, sometimes DU is so transparent. As the worm turns.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Krugman's engages in "partisan hits"? Horray for bi-partisanship unity with Republicans!

Oh Krugman is partisan! He's a bad man who actually stands for something including opposition to reactionary Republicans. How terrible that is. Especially when bi-partisan unity and cooperation with fricken Republicans is so urgently needed at this time!

Do you want Krugman to flat out surrender to Republicans like some Democrats are so ready to do?
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well said.....transparent as hell. If Krugman wants to be so
helpful why wouldn't he take up the President's offer to assist?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm afraid for some it is just a means to an end
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 12:46 PM by AtomicKitten
in yet another ridiculous demented proxy war here on DU. :(
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. you not suggesting that... no way, it's not possible...
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 01:10 PM by dionysus
there are some people here that are still upset that obama won? get out!!! i can't believe it!!!1!!1

:spray: :rofl: :silly:
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. I routinely post both Reich and Krugman.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. more of the "change we can believe in"
which is turning into more "business as usual".

Krugman has been arguing that we need fundamental change - and Obama's "our culture won’t stand for nationalization" is truly a weak response for the man who ran as a change agent.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. FDIC == Nationalization??
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 12:53 PM by high density
Is Krugman serious? Sometimes the FDIC does operate the bank for a while (see IndyMac) but barring those rare cases, assets and deposits from failed banks are almost always sold to other private financial institutions.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. krugman know economics but he's transparently a douchebag regarding obama...
he always has been.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Or a large rat with too much whine
and cheeze in his hole.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. "impressively articulate"
Hmm.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. and "clean" too!
:eyes:
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. Krugman is brilliant...on nationalization, though...there are some good arguments why
it may not be the best idea.....

i forget what they are now...something along the lines of the govt't not being a good manager of what is historically a private enterprise

but there are also good arguments in favor....

mainly----giving the taxpayers---who are funding all this new $2.7 trillion bailout---a say in what goes on
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The FDIC reportedly does a damn good job. It takes over and runs banks every week.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. here's a link to one ny times article and blog on nationalization:
not the best, there are other great articles....but readers' comments on the blog are interesting...

the main thing:

the banks are taking the bailout money and using it to pay for their credit default swaps, which are the root cause of this catastrophe......all the layers of derivatives that came due.....

<http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/rubin-sees-serious-problems-in-nationalizing-banks/?scp=8&sq=nationalization%20and%20bank%20and%20problem&st=cse>

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. here's the better article with pros and cons of nationalization:
<snip>

"....Is the president prepared to nationalize a huge swath of the nation’s banking system?

Privately, most members of the Obama economic team concede that the rapid deterioration of the country’s biggest banks, notably Bank of America and Citigroup, is bound to require far larger investments of taxpayer money, atop the more than $300 billion of taxpayer money already poured into those two financial institutions and hundreds of others.

But if hundreds of billions of dollars of new investment is needed to shore up those banks, and perhaps their competitors, what do taxpayers get in return? And how do the risks escalate as government’s role expands from a few bailouts to control over a vast portion of the financial sector of the world’s largest economy?

The Obama administration is making only glancing references to those questions. In an interview Sunday on “This Week” on ABC, the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, alluded to internal debate when she was asked whether nationalization, or partial nationalization, of the largest banks was a good idea.

“Well, whatever you want to call it,” said Ms. Pelosi, Democrat of California. “If we are strengthening them, then the American people should get some of the upside of that strengthening. Some people call that nationalization.

“I’m not talking about total ownership,” she quickly cautioned — stopping herself by posing a question: “Would we have ever thought we would see the day when we’d be using that terminology? ‘Nationalization of the banks?’ ”

So far, President Obama’s top aides have steered clear of the word entirely, and they are still actively discussing other alternatives, including creating a “bad bank” that would nationalize the worst nonperforming loans by taking them off the hands of financial institutions without actually taking ownership of the banks. Others talk of de facto nationalization, in which the government owns a sizeable chunk of the banks but not a majority, with all that connotes.

That has already happened; taxpayers are now the biggest shareholders in Bank of America, with about 6 percent of the stock, and in Citigroup, with 7.8 percent. But the government’s influence is far larger than those numbers suggest, because it has guaranteed to absorb the losses of some of the two banks’ most toxic assets, a figure that could run into the hundreds of billions of dollars.

Many believe this form of hybrid ownership — part government, part private, with the responsibilities of ownership unclear — will not prove workable.

“The case for full nationalization is far stronger now than it was a few months ago,” said Adam S. Posen, the deputy director of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. “If you don’t own the majority, you don’t get to fire the management, to wipe out the shareholders, to declare that you are just going to take the losses and start over. It’s the mistake the Japanese made in the ’90s.”

“I would guess that sometime in the next few weeks, President Obama and Tim Geithner,” he said, referring to the nominee for Treasury secretary, “will have to come out and say, ‘It’s much worse than we thought,’ and just bite the bullet.”

So far the Obama administration has signaled that it is trying to avoid that day, and members of its economic team — among them Mr. Geithner and the president’s top economic adviser, Lawrence H. Summers — made the case during the Asian financial crisis in the 1990s that governments make lousy bank managers.

Indeed, the risks of nationalization they warned about then apply equally to the United States now. The first is that nationalization can prove contagious. If the Obama administration took over Bank of America and Citigroup, two of the largest banks in the United States, private investors could decide to flee from the likes of JPMorgan Chase and Wells Fargo, or other major banks, fearing they could be next.

Moreover, Mr. Obama’s advisers say they are acutely aware that if the government is perceived as running the banks, the administration would come under enormous political pressure to halt foreclosures or lend money to ailing projects in cities or states with powerful constituencies, which could imperil the effort to steer the banks away from the cliff.

“The nightmare scenarios are endless,” one of the administration’s senior officials said.

The argument in favor of nationalization, even a brief nationalization of a few months or years, is straightforward: It might be the only way to pull America’s largest financial institutions out of the downward spiral that makes it enormously difficult to raise the capital they need to keep operating....."

<snip>

<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/business/economy/26banks.html?_r=1&scp=10&sq=nationalization%20and%20bank%20and%20problem&st=cse>
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here's another thread flpj that
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 01:33 PM by chill_wind
the usual small spleen-venting "anti-Krugman" hit-squad either haven't discovered or found time to patrol yet. (You might appreciate it.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5029469
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. thanx for the link, very convincing...the top economists argue for nationalization
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