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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:14 PM
Original message
We are going to nationalize the banks...
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 09:22 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
We are going to nationalize the banks. The only questions are when and for how long. I hope we do it before exhausting every other terrible option on the way down in the name of anti-socialist awesomeness.

Essentially, the path of least resistance is for the government to give gigantic welfare hand-outs to the owners of failed businesses for no reason other than to show how anti-socialist we are. Call Alanis Morisette because that actually IS ironic.
Stressed for Sauces

Aha — the Times’s dealbook blog supplies exactly the numbers I was looking for. It cites a CreditSights report on the potential losses of major banks — which gives us a guide to the amount of capital the federal government needs to put in to make these banks viable.

Focus just on the big four money center banks: Citi, B of A, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan. According to this estimate, they need around $450 billion. Meanwhile, their combined market cap is only about $200 billion — and part if not all of that market cap surely represents the “Geithner put,” the hope that stockholders will in effect get a handout from the feds.

Given these numbers, it’s extremely hard to rescue these banks without either (a) giving a HUGE handout to current stockholders or (b) effectively taking ownership on the part of we, the people. Of these, (a) would be politically unacceptable as well as bad policy — but the Obama administration isn’t ready to go for (b), because it’s not in our “culture”.

Hence the perplexity of policy. Our best hope right now is that the “stress test” will make (b) inevitable — that Treasury will declare itself shocked, shocked to find that the banks are in such bad financial shape, leaving government receivership unavoidable.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/14/stressed-for-success/
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. psssst
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 09:22 PM by Pirate Smile
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yup, we will have to. They just don't get it.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I can't wait!! Somebody will have to pinch me.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. OK, a weird thought. If you were Obama and knew you had to nationalize the banks
Wouldn't you want someone like Geithner to do your dirty work? You know, someone with deep and unholy ties to the industry, someone who, if HE says they gotta be nationalized, you know things gotta be bad and there's really no other choice.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. We already have, thanks to Bush. n/t
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. But...but..."SOCIALISM"!!!
People are ascared of it. The sad thing is, President Obama is being advised to throw a trill and a half to this issue knowing it will amount to naught, and he will have to nationalize the banks anyway by the fall, at the very least. All because the 'pubs wet their pants at the mere thought of, "SOCIALISM"!!! I did drop our Prez an email begging him to nationalize now, and I even cited Roubini (sp???).
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why not allow both?
Establish a national bank AND allow private banking as well.

Survival of the fittest, NO bailouts to private banks ever again.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. North Dakota has a State Bank
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 10:03 PM by RC
It is political suicide to talk about wanting to get rid of it and ND is a repug run Red state.

http://www.banknd.nd.gov/bndhome.jsp

Bank of North Dakota, located in Bismarck, ND, is the only state-owned bank in the nation. Its mission, established by legislative action in 1919, is to encourage and promote agriculture, commerce and industry in North Dakota. In this role, the Bank acts as a funding resource in partnership with other financial institutions, economic development groups and guaranty agencies.


ND also has a state owned Mill and Elevator.
http://www.ndmill.com/

Damn commie repugs did this.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. I know Krugman is really smart, but I don't believe him.
I know Wells Fargo as more than $100 billion capital, and the CEO said so during the Congressional Hearings. It's hard to believe the other three can't scrape up another $100 between them. Actually, it's not hard to belive for BofA -- they just got more Fed money. They're hurting. And Citi totally sucks, but I think JPMorgan is doing okay. I know for a fact that Wells Fargo is healthy so why would they be nationalized?



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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Me either.
Wells Fargo is a viable bank and does not need rescuing. It's AAA rated (although it might have take a slight ding due to the Wachovia merger) and is the only American bank in the top 10 in terms of stability. It didn't and doesn't need money from the government to make it viable. JP Morgan is also doing just fine. I don't know where Krugman is getting his information, but this does make it look like he's playing fast and loose with the facts here. As a result, it's hard to take the rest of what he says in this article seriously.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. With the money we have already "spent" on the banks, we
could have already bought ALL their shares. The only prob is, with that comes the bad debt and assets. But, buying them is probably the best answer.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Amen!
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Funny old world isn't it? nt
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Paulson forced all the banks to take TARP funds (to hide from the public which ones were in trouble)
Paulson went out of his way to do this. No accountability. No scrutiny. Just slather hundreds of billions of taxpayers' dollars to ALL the major banks. I remember thinking it odd at the time that some banks did not WANT any TARP money, but Paulson forced them to take it. Now it all makes sense. It was the only way to keep secret the identities of which banks were on the verge of insolvency.


This is a snippet from December about it:


Spooked and Insolvent

By Kevin Drum
Mother Jones

December 22, 2008


Atrios sez:

Even now my interpretation is that the Wise Men Of Washington who are "dealing" with this financial crisis believe they are dealing with a liquidity crisis rather than an insolvency one. They think that big shitpile is actually worth something, but that "financial actors" are "spooked." They think that if banks aren't lending it's because they have temporary capital issues because of this, instead of the fact that maybe banks aren't lending because recession is here and it's not the most awesome time to lend money for projects.


But why can't it be both? In the previous post I said it was a bad idea for Henry Paulson to bail out all the big banks instead of reserving funds only for those banks that were genuinely close to insolvency, and this is one of the reasons. Not only did a lot of money get wasted on banks that didn't want it, but it prevented us from finding out which banks were in trouble and which ones weren't. If, say, a quarter of the banking industry is insolvent, but nobody knows which quarter, than we have both an insolvency problem and a "spooked financial actors" problem. Sweden solved both these problems in the early 90s by taking over the banking industry completely, but in their case it was really true that virtually every bank was underwater. In our case, it's not(1), and we ought to be spending more time figuring out which banks are viable entities and which ones aren't. The ones that aren't can be bailed out or nationalized if there's some prospect of future recovery, and the rest can be left alone. Result: we still have a big recession, but at least the solvent banks aren't under the same cloud of suspicion as everyone else and can go about their business semi-normally.

(1)Well, I don't think so, anyway. I could be wrong, though!




When Geithner started talking about involuntary "stress tests" for (especially the major) banks, Wall Street freaked out over this prospect of public exposure of exactly how Paulson tried his best to hide them from scrutiny. By examining individual banks, we will soon learn which ones are teetering on insolvency. Then we will have a reason to nationalize those, fire all the management and pony up for all depositors. The banks that are not having problems should be left alone.



Krugman is on it.


Aha — the Times’s dealbook blog supplies exactly the numbers I was looking for. It cites a CreditSights report on the potential losses of major banks — which gives us a guide to the amount of capital the federal government needs to put in to make these banks viable.

Focus just on the big four money center banks: Citi, B of A, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan. According to this estimate, they need around $450 billion. Meanwhile, their combined market cap is only about $200 billion — and part if not all of that market cap surely represents the “Geithner put,” the hope that stockholders will in effect get a handout from the feds.

Given these numbers, it’s extremely hard to rescue these banks without either (a) giving a HUGE handout to current stockholders or (b) effectively taking ownership on the part of we, the people. Of these, (a) would be politically unacceptable as well as bad policy — but the Obama administration isn’t ready to go for (b), because it’s not in our “culture”.

Hence the perplexity of policy. Our best hope right now is that the “stress test” will make (b) inevitable — that Treasury will declare itself shocked, shocked to find that the banks are in such bad financial shape, leaving government receivership unavoidable.




The bottom line for me is that the people who ran these banks into the ground should be forced out, indicted for fraud, and their banks nationalized. Period.





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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. The Swedish way?
Or another way that works?
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. Krugman, Stiglitz, Roubini, Taleb, Baker Agree:
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 12:48 AM by chill_wind
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