Why not make an American Electric Car that is based on being a national vehicle?

[zulchzulu]

OK... here goes an idea I think would really work and immediately put auto workers back to work.

The idea is The American Car.

It's based on how some countries have made a "national car" that everyone would drive. It's a state-run car. It's produced in America. It is subsidized by tax money and is therefore VERY affordable.

It's an electric car. Pure electric. And not a golf cart. It looks like this (pardon the models)



Specs?

About this car:
So far, all we know is that the E6 will be a 5 seater with an acceleration of 0 to 100 kph of around 10 seconds. Top speed should be top speed of 160 kph (100 mph), and the battery pack, which is located under the rear passenger seats, will be based on BYD's own lithium-ion iron phosphate technology. Range per charge is expected to be 300 km (186 miles).

But most impressive of all:

"BYD projected the battery had a life of 2,000 cycles, for a lifetime range of about 600,000 km (373,000 miles)"

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/byd-electric-car-e6-crossover-mpv.php

Or this...



Or this...



These are all electric cars.

Now, get this...

All the auto plants that have been shut down and are simply sitting there to rust with communities destroyed by layoffs (like Janesville, Wisconsin) now are making what could be the WPA-version of pure American electric cars that say that we can make a solid, fun electric vehicle that is purely an American car. It's not a Ford. It's not a Chevy.

It's an American car.

We tax payers would get a break if we bought this new car that is produced from retrofitted auto production facilities AND we create a very GREEN car.

Heck, the first generation of this automobile would be in either light or dark green and have an American flag on the body as a small symbolic gesture.

It would rejuvenate American engineering, jumpstart the auto industry and do a sideways production payoff by making the automobile a national vehicle AND get the cities and towns that have had to deal with closing auto plants with a brand new UNION-based production success story.

If someone wanted to buy one of these AMERICAN-MADE electric vehicles, they would get a break in the price and the no-frills marketing would make these vehicles very affordable.

Yugoslavia made the Yugo. So have other countries. Methinks we could kick their patooties.

The American Car. Electric, not Hybrid. Ready for the World.

If you are bewildered by this notion, rent or buy "Who Killed The Electric Car" (/www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/)... it's all there. Lithium battery technology has greatly advanced.

More:
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/

Why in this forum on this subject? I could see Barack Obama being for this in a New York second...

[BlooInBloo]

1. The notion of forcing Americans to use 1 particular car is a laughable non-starter.

[NYC_SKP]

4. Bloo!

Not all America has to go for it, just maybe 3-5% of the market!

I'd buy one...

True that it would serve everyone's needs as their only vehicle, but it would serve almost all two-car households as one of them.

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

5. I'm not sure I appreciate the point of calling a 3-5% market car "the national car", then.

[quakerboy]

33. Make it the national car

in that our governments order them. City, state, Fed. The govt uses a lot of Autos, and the fleet is changed out on a reasonably frequent basis. I would be willing to wager that if all their sedan orders went to this hypothetical car, that could justify a fairly complete manufacturing run in and of itself. Which could be ramped up as private party demand justified.

[Qutzupalotl]

35. Nationalized, perhaps. n/t

[zulchzulu]

7. I bet there would be a 20-30% market after the first generation vehicles were produced

I would buy two of these vehicles myself.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Ah - you've done extensive market and economic research on this. Excellent.

[zulchzulu]

14. Heh...

I've driven by auto plants that are shut down or are getting shut down due to asshats in Detroit not getting it and have been very interested in these very auto plants retrofitting to electric cars. Then there's the Detroit problem. They don't want to keep jobs in this country as well as are in the pocket of the oil industry.

So...

Hybrids would be a cop-out.

As mentioned, electric car technology is more than ready for even American tastes.

And if we had an electric car family (perhaps 3 or 4 styles) available and made from retrofitted auto plants and made "national", we could perhaps have many economic benefits that also are green technology in the mix.

If you get a chance, see the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car" for how the technology was there a dozen years ago and how the current auto companies are hellbent on never making electric cars successful... hence making the electric car a national project in the interim.

Works for me...

[BlooInBloo]

18. I'm familiar with the documentary.

[NYC_SKP]

23. I'm lucky, I've driven a hydrogen fuel cell car, a plug-in hybrid, and daily a hybrid.

It's what I do for a living, green energy stuff.

For decades we've been letting the automakers run the show, mold consumer tastes.

Clinton dropped the ball on the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards and automakers took advantage of loopholes to push trucks and SUVs and the public took the bait.

It's time to reg-u-late again. And more, it's time to LEAD by example.

That they need the money gives us the perfect opportunity to tie some conditions to their bailout, just like the conditions re executive pay for bank bailouts.

It's time to lead.

The technology is here.

The free market system in transportation failed.

[zulchzulu]

6. It wouldn't be forcing anyone to do anything...

It's about retrofitting auto plants to produce a family of electric vehicles that would be "national" and not with a particular auto company. It would allow auto plants to get jobs, get towns where those jobs were shut down to come back and would get more electric cars on the road.

You could still buy your VW if you wanted...

[BlooInBloo]

9. Then perhaps you didn't mean what you said...

"a "national car" that everyone would drive"

[zulchzulu]

11. Yup...

Everyone would drive if they had a brain!

:hi:

[Kalyke]

42. GM and Ford want bailout money to retrofit their plants.

I'm sorry you weren't aware of that.


Secondly, I hope they make nicer looking electrics and/or hybrids than are currently on the market. That's why they don't sell. Most of them are uglier than sin.

[CLANG]

12. Nobody would have to force me - If the price is under 25K - I'm there

[BlooInBloo]

13. Good for you.

[zulchzulu]

16. I could see an entry vehicle for 10K

Consider that there would be a family of cars...

A 5 passenger sedan ($10-14K)
A 5 passenger mid-SUV ($20K)
A sports car convertible ($20K)

Keep it simple.

[CLANG]

20. That would be very nice, but It would need to be HEAVILY subsidized at that price.

[zulchzulu]

25. Tax credits and V2G credits could work too

Since this discussion began, V2G (Vehicle to Grid) technology could additionally value-add the effort.



http://www.udel.edu/V2G/

[Radical Activist]

55. This is what many people want.

And I didn't see anything in the post about forcing people to buy anything.

[navarth]

2. Sure. It's all good, the only problem is delivering the electricity, infrastructure, etc.

I'm all for it if we can make it work. It would create a lot of jobs to create the infrastructure necessary for charging the car at each end of it's travels, or manufacturing batteries, etc.

Possible problems to be overcome: 1. recycling the batteries 2. generating the necessary electricity in clean ways

We certainly do need to have a creative outburst.

[Radical Activist]

54. We already have the grid and electric outlets nearly everywhere.

All it takes is encouraging people to plug-in overnight when electricity use is already lower.

[navarth]

60. That's at home. Sure they can do that, but

what about at the parking lot when they drive to work?

I don't know, I'm just asking.

And the electricity has to come from somewhere. I don't want anybody building more nukes for that. If windmills, solar can do it....that would be optimum.

But I don't think we really have the infrastucture for round trips, etc. yet.

Maybe I'm wrong?

[Radical Activist]

62. It's cheap and easy

to get electrical outlets in parking lots where people work during the day. Some lots already have outlets for other purposes, and big open parking lots are great places to install solar panels that would provide shade while they collect energy. Compared to other alternatives it will require fewer investments in new infrastructure.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Great Idea. We could do that. In WWII the original "JEEP", or model MB.....

..was made by Willys, but was also made by Ford and called the GPW.

I owned a '41 version.

Both were built to the same spec and had another maker been willing to work to the same contract, they could have.

So if the US government wanted to create a specification and provide automakers the opportunity to make build them in exchange for considerable subsidization, I'd be all for it and they wouldn't really be able to cry "foul"

Right on, zulch!

:toast:

[zulchzulu]

17. That's a perfect template for this possible project n/t

[Qutzupalotl]

38. You have the ear of the White House:

A program like the one you propose would certainly help workers. You should submit your idea to the task force on strengthening the middle class.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/strongmiddleclass/

[PJPhreak]

8. Ya Know,

I think you just might be on to something here...The Jeep is a Great example,but this one also helped pull Germany out of its trouble after WWII....And who says that people wont buy a car from a company that makes only one Model?? Hell,Folks bought these by the Bucketload!



edit for grammar

[wundermaus]

15. Sounds a lot like America's volkswagon of the 21st century...

The people's All Electric Car?

Hell yeah!

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. The problem no-one seems to acknowledge with electric cars:

whence comes the energy? The US electrical grid does not at present have the generating capacity to cope with the added demand should all-electric vehicles be widely adopted. Most electrical power generation in the US, at present, is from coal. Given public resistance to nuclear, and the relative availability and low cost of coal, it's safe to assume that would continue to be the case even with scaling up to meet demand. So, how exactly is the adoption of electric vehicles most of whose power is generated from a dirtier and more polluting fossil fuel than gasoline be an improvement, exactly?

[NYC_SKP]

21. V2G, Vehicle to Grid, cars charge at night when there's excess, two birds one stone.

Contrary to your understandable, but mistaken, concern, electric cars can charge at night during off-peak hours, thus solving a few problems.

V2G technology allows for the bidirectional sharing of electricity between Electric Vehicles (EVs) and Plug-in Electric Hybrid Vehicles (PHEVs) and the electric power grid. The technology turns each vehicle into a power storage system, increasing power reliability and the amount of renewable energy available to the grid during peak power usage.
-- Felix Kramer, CalCars.org, founder

Newark, DE has gotten the green light for one of the first two-way Vehicle to Grid infrastructure. Sponsored by a $730,000 grant from the U.S. Department of Energy, the project helps the state and the University of Delaware to purchase specially-equipped cars (retrofitted versions of the Scion xB) which would get electricity from the local utility and give back some of it when the car is parked and plugged in. Of course, a handful of cars aren't enough to make any dramatic impact on the grid, but regional grid manager believes that a thousand will make a noticeable difference. The demonstration vehicles, plugged into a single 208-volt, 50-amp outlet, can each use or send onto the grid 10.4 kWh of electricity. What Delaware needs now, besides the EV cars, is a complete network of garages, apartment parking lots and city streets outfitted with the right size plugs, as the grid is actually ready to go. Thanks to GoodCheer for the tip.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/14/electric-vehicle-to-grid-network-arrives-in-newark-de/

April 11, 2007
PG&E Demonstrates Electric Vehicle-to-Grid Technology
San Francisco, California

During the Silicon Valley Leadership Group Alternative Energy Solutions Summit, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) demonstrated the first-ever utility Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology demonstration, which can make electric vehicles suppliers of electricity to homes and businesses.

"Using a grid-connected car's battery as distributed energy storage for homes or businesses expands the economic and environmental benefits of plug-in vehicles."

PG&E's prototype PHEV, converted in partnership with the Bay Area Air Quality Management District and Energy CS, adds a lithium-ion battery to a traditional Toyota Prius. The additional battery capacity increases the vehicle's ability to run completely on electricity.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2007/04/pg-e-demonstrates-electric-vehicle-to-grid-technology-48085

:toast:

[zulchzulu]

24. WOW! That is extremely cool, NYC_SKP!

V2G is something I wasn't even thinking of. It just makes too much sense!

[NYC_SKP]

28. Yeah, instead of plug-in hybrids being a drain on the grid, they provide energy during peak.

Quite the opposite of the concern up thread. If the grid needs it and your plug in hybrid is plugged in, they can tap your battery power. Then you drive on the gas engine and charge back up, but get credit through the net meter for the energy you've contributed.

It amazes me that electric utilities are able to meet constantly changing demand moment by moment.

Wind and solar make energy when they want to.

Coal and Nuclear provide base load, pretty much running 100% full time.

Natural gas turbine generation takes up much of the slack in California, and we get pretty concerned during hot summer afternoons!

Of course grid tied Solar is working hard just as we need it.

But one of the biggest unsolved matters in the grid is STORAGE. I read a post where somebody thought that there were sheds with batteries everywhere that were charged up for this. Poppycock. There are systems to help balance load, but utilities pretty have to match demand with generation.

One cool thing that happens is called "pumped storage", in which surplus power is used to pump water to a higher reservoir, then it's released as needed for generation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

Massive wind installations will need such a storage system. What to do with all that power on windy nights when demand might not be as great as supply?

Lot's of cool stuff in the energy tech world!

:hi:

[zulchzulu]

22. Lithium batteries to "fuel" electric cars would be charged by the electric grid

Like any device you currently plug into to charge, how that electricity is generated and from what source (coal, nuclear, solor, wind, hydropower, etc.) is not a concern.

You have your EV (electric vehicle) parked. You yank the battery out and recharge overnight... or whatever. It's not going to ask you if the electricity is from some coal plant or a wind turbine.

As for the improvement, well it's pretty immediate. An EV has zero carbon exhaust when operating. Multiply that by a couple million in a year or so and you have a very clear (no pun intended) alternative.

What this also would bring is getting American EVs on the market internationally.

[quakerboy]

36. What is the balance

If you run your car, you use x amount of gas.

If you buy an electric car and charge it overnight, the electricity comes from somewhere. Lets say it comes from a power plant burning gas.

In that scenario your driving still creates carbon exhaust, it comes out of a stack rather than a tail pipe. If it comes from a Coal plant, thats not really better.

I think thats what spiderJ was getting at.

And it is a good question. Whats the balance. How many MPG do you get if you burn it in your internal combustion vehicle VS if you turn it to electricity and use it in an equivalent EV? I am guessing the latter is better, but how much better?

[Radical Activist]

57. Electric cars powered from coal are still much less polluting than gas.

It's a more efficient use of energy. The EPA has some good charts and graphs on that but you can also look here:
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/hybrid_fuelcell_and_electric_vehicles/battery-electric-vehicles.html

[ContinentalOp]

31. Even burning 100% coal, an electric car is much cleaner than an ICE.

This is mentioned in pretty much every article written about electric cars. I'm not sure why you think nobody is acknowledging the issue.

http://www.evworld.com/general.cfm?page=evFAQ&title=EV%20FAQs
"For every gallon of gasoline burned, approximately 22 pounds of CO2 are created. If a car gets 25 miles a gallon it will emit 22 pounds of carbon dioxide over that distance, as well as other pollutants. By comparison, an electric car may travel the same distance consuming 5 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electric power at a rate of 200 watt hours/mile. Assuming the local grid is 100% coal-fired, roughly 5 lbs of coal would be consumed to create that 5kWh. Depending on the grade and carbon content of the coal, one kilowatt hour creates approximately 1.4 pounds of CO2. That's 7 pounds of CO2 vs. 22 pounds to travel the same 25 miles."

[diane in sf]

34. Even using coal generated power to charge the cars is more efficient and cleaner

than driving the same number of miles using gasoline.

[FatDave]

49. It's always windy where I live.

I'd have a big-ass wind turbine in my yard if I could afford it. A few miles west of me, the electric company has put up somewhere between 75 and 100 turbines. That's an estimate, never actually counted them. When I drive by, I rarely see more than 5 turning. The rest have their blades turned flat. Seems like there's an abundance of electricity not being generated near me.

[Radical Activist]

56. People plug-in at night

when plants are already generating well below capacity. Then put solar panels on the roofs of major employers and shopping centers for people to charge up during the day. It's much easier to deal with than building an entire new delivery system for hydrogen or ethanol.

[tkmorris]

26. This sounds pretty "pie in the sky" to me

Ideas like these make great idealistic visions but rarely do they make sound practical policy.

I think you have found the exception. I LOVE this idea. I usually have little use for patriots, but I think we really could use a little pride in our country again. If the federal government could get behind this in a big way, and sell it as an AMERICAN car, made by AMERICAN union labor, on AMERICAN soil, an example of good old fashioned yankee ingenuity and hard work, it could be a huge success.

[salguine]

27. Yah! Fee could call it der People's Car.

[Politicalboi]

29. We need something new that's for sure

But if we used alternative fuel I think it would be easier to make the change. They have ways of using garbage, Hemp, Corn, Natural Gas. We do need something soon.

[Honeycombe8]

30. I think Americans are too individualistic to go for a nat'l car. Maybe students and young

people would buy it.

I'd love an electric car. But I don't think I can get one, since I have only one vehicle. I wouldn't be able to make a trip in an electric car, since it has a limited range. So I guess electric cars are for 2-car households?

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Well speaking for myself

I take driving trips over 175 miles in a day of drivng about once every two years. If I had an electric vehicle, and wanted more range, rather than maintain two cars, I'd rent a car for short term use. Much as millions of people do today when they need a truck or 'need' a limo. They do not own one to use it two or three times a year, they go pay U-Haul 20 bucks. They call a service for the wedding, they do not purchase a limo to use upon rare occasion. They call a service and rent one.

[zulchzulu]

44. There are now lithium batteries that can have electric cars go for over 300 miles a charge

That's the last I checked. Perhaps others know more about this...

The average American drives about 140 miles a week. So a charged battery running 300 miles would suffice in most cases. Of course, as more EVs are out there, solutions to get a charged battery along the way would be available and/or you could have more than one battery in the vehicle.

[Honeycombe8]

45. I read about the lithium batteries. They're not practical yet. Very expensive.

One prototype vehicle with a lithium battery was over $100,000.

I'm sure the lithium battery will be made economical some day and put into the average car. It'll be exciting when that day comes. Don't know when that'll be. They should be in hybrid cars, too, I guess.

More than one battery per car sounds like a good idea. Charging stations wouldn't work, I think, since I think it takes a long time (like overnight) to charge an EV.

I'm not thinking of range as for weekly commutes. I'm thinking of a trip. Like many people, I have family out of state and go visit them once a year. It's a 400 mile trip one way. That's 800 miles round trip, plus extra driving miles while there. Of course, I could plug in after I get there, for the drive back.

I could rent for the trip, like that other poster suggested. Or I could fly, and then rent when I get there. These are all options, I suppose. But there are no EVs for the average consumer yet. Darn it. All this is hypothetical.

[KittyWampus]

50. funny thing- all those individualists bought SUV's because the auto industry advertised them

as safe and desirable.

The only difference between Americans buying whatever car the auto industry is cramming down our throats and Americans buying a "National car"?

The former benefits ONLY the auto and petrol industry as it enables our fuel consuming bad-habits while the other benefits EVERYONE.

[Bread and Circus]

32. I don't like the idea of a national car. However, there's lots of other ways...

to usher in the electric car age on a national level.

It's definitely the goal imo.

[quakerboy]

37. Given that we are being asked to bail out the auto manufacturers

Why not just buy one of them and retool the manufacturing that we already have. Keep the workers, loose the management, and lead on what the future of personal transportation will look like?

[PretzelWarrior]

39. NO WAY! wrong idea.

the better idea is to use government resources to get one launched and fast that is viable (reasonably convenient for short to mid range, sufficient power, and at reasonable price point).

At that point, market forces kick in and other companies will follow suit.

It happened with hybrids and Toyota. It can happen with fully electric.

[Two Americas]

40. electric public transit

Put everyone to work rebuilding public transportation. Everyone benefits, and all of the advantages - fuel, pollution, safety - are multiplied.

We need to stop compromising with the bad ideas that got us into this fix. Keep your car and drive it if you like, but let's stop forcing everyone to live lives that are oriented around and dominated by them.

[zeemike]

41. Exultant idea

But could I add one feature.
And easy to change battery and would come with a spare that could be charged with solar panels of the roof.
That would permit you to go to work in the day and have a fresh battery available at night.
And also get all your energy for your car free with 0 emission.
And what would all of this cost the tax payer? A few billion...much less than the auto bailout I suspect.

[OwnedByFerrets]

46. The U.S. needs a Manhatten Project in the areas of Energy and Transportation

[IDemo]

47. A few points

1 - The electric grid as it exists now could support around 70 percent of America's light vehicle fleet (cars, light trucks), from a
"Mileage from Megawatts" study done by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory for the Department of Energy. http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204

2 - Per mile, the greenhouse gas output of an electric vehicle is significantly less than an equivalent gas or diesel burning vehicle. In areas served
primarily by coal power plants, this is still true, though not on the same level as those with hydro, nuclear, or natural gas power. See the GREET study by Argonne National Laboratory.

3 - Vehicle-to-Grid technology, as mentioned above, will provide significant benefits to grid operators, will help in areas served by wind power, and may offer cash-back to V2G vehicle
equipped car owners. The technology has already been tested at least twice in different parts of the country.

4 - The transition to EV's will not take place overnight, nor should it. Replacing America's existing vehicle fleet will take a long time.

An ancient Journal post of mine on the topic - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x654115

[denem]

48. A Voltswagon?

:)

[KittyWampus]

51. awesome!

[flvegan]

52. Wait...did you seriously mention the Yugo?

We could also mandate that any money given/loaned to the big 3 (or 2 if Ford really doesn't need it) stays in this country and $xx goes towards providing cheaper hybrid/electric cars that are built in this country.

[nc4bo]

53. Anybody remember the K-car? Wildly popular and successful gamble for Chrysler

I could get behind this idea and would love to buy such a car. I'm loving that E6!

Even my husband said he'd buy an electric model but the price tag is just too steep for us.

I'd just love to see this country get off the big oil dependency so we can tell the M.E. we can take it or leave it because we really don't need it like we used to.

Nice post, btw!

[Vinca]

58. A woman I know lived in Iran decades ago before the Carter-era

hostage crisis. She said they had one kind of car there and one key fit them all. I forget what she said is was called, but I thought it was amusing. The idea of an electric car that would be a symbol of American ingenuity is a good one.

[zulchzulu]

59. Lithium batteries for the GM Volt are now about $10,000... they were $100,000 a year ago

You could also make money back by selling your electricity from the vehicle back to the grid.

http://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2009/01/22/worldwide-race-to-make-better-batteries/

[kwenu]

61. I don't like ugly cars. We need fuel efficient and appealing cars.

I don't think a national car would work here but anything is worth consideration.

[zulchzulu]

64. Those cars in the OP are electric cars...

As was seen in the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car", the EV looked a lot like a Honda Accord...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

63. you should get a big tax break if you purchase an electric car

I mean big