Read it and and weep, Kucitizens and Progressives.....

[cryofan]

Interesting column from a liberal Oregonian journalist:

....

But then I made a wise crack about Dennis Kucinich and I realized just how wrong I was. Suddenly, angry e-letters came pouring into my inbox from across cyberspace.

....


The Kucinich fanatics preach inclusiveness and yet rail against every difference. They cannot see the forest for the trees. They slowly exclude everyone till they've carved out tiny homogeneous niches that lack real political power and then hold on desperately to the illusion of power created by their sense of moral purity and intellectual superiority. They are the worst kind of idealist. They are the type of dreamers that Oregonians shouldn't love.


....


I wonder, when their fantasy world comes crashing down around them and their party nominates, let's say, Howard Dean, what are the Kucinich fanatics going to do? Will they abandon the ideals that Kucinich stands for in the name of supporting the lesser to Bush's greater evil? Or will they have the courage to fight the good fight and vote their conscience? Will they vote Green or are they too yellow?

I suspect the majority will stay with the Democrats. And their rhetoric will amount to nothing in the end. At best a moderately conservative Democrat will be elected president, the Green Party will once again fail to achieve its potential and this country will continue its downward slide, just a little bit slower than before. Regrettably, I think America needs a second Bush presidency. The progressives just haven't learned their lesson yet.


More here:
http://www.dailyemerald.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/01/08/3ffd21e0b140d

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Let's admit it--he has a point.....

[redqueen]

1. Has a point? He's full of $#&@!

Sorry, but I disagree vehemently.

He trashes the supporters of the ONE progressive candidate, and then mocks them for not abandoning the party for the Greens?

He needs to pull his head out of his a$$.

I think he's going to get some MORE e-mail from the 'worst kind of idealists'.

A$$hole.

He's doing a great job of ensuring the status quo continues, I'll give him that.

[library_max]

2. You've got him pegged, RQ.

Those of us who have been on DU for a while can recognize the technique of the provocateur. He disingenuously pretends to be concerned with how leftist Kucinich-style idealism can be fit into the larger needs of the Democratic Party (like winning elections), but he's just trying to stir up trouble. He gives himself away when he calls Kucinich supporters cowards unless they vote Green in the general election.

[DS1]

3. on the one hand, that repsonse is exactly what he's talking about

on the other hand, he asked for it.

Typical schoolyard bullshit.

So and so is violent, repeat until so and so punches you in the face, see I was right!

[redqueen]

6. Heh, well that's for HERE

This is what I'm sending him. Still working on it, though:

Dear Sir,

Based on your editorial, it would seem that every single e-mail you recieved from Kucinich supporters was angry, vitriolic, and fanatical. Is that a fact? I strongly doubt that is the case.

Your comment in this piece about Kucinich ("troll-like"), paired with the illustration above your editorial, put forward a very clear message which won't be lost on everyone.

You laud Republicans for using pandering tactics, and then turn around and insult progressives who won't just abandon the Dem party for the Greens. Interesting. Who are you trying to help again? Oh yeah, progressives.

You say that we're not great at 'accepting reality'. You have that right. We don't accept the unfair treatment the media has given our candidate (and you can joke and mock all you like but the reality is there for those that wish to see it), and we don't accept the insults of 'journalists' like you, who are so insulted that nobody gives you your little pat on the back and a cookie for spewing vitriol about whatever bugs you that day.

I'm sure you don't want any advice, but I'll offer it anyway, since you seem to want to be progressive, and we need more people on our side. Here's my advice: do some research. You blew your 'progressive' image by stating that you expected some kind of congratulation for 'for finally giving Carol Moseley Braun the recognition that her career deserves'. Do you not remember that she only escaped being investigated due to having a friendly AG in power at the time? Do you not remember that she voted with Republicans, Lieberman, and Feinstein to overturn Clinton's veto of the Securities Litigation Reform Act? I guess not.

I'm sure you're fooling a lot of people. Are you yourself included among those? Are you proud of that?

[iowapeacechief]

4. Doesn't describe Iowa kucitizens...

...in my fairly broad experience. From what I've seen here, we are more savvy and more flexible.

I wish I could dismiss the writer's characterizations as unfair or cheap-shot somehow. But, unfortunately, I recognize the type and agree we should avoid its negatives.

My complaint? We kucitizens are just too few! And the unrealistic-purist image is probably a big reason for that.

And our time is too short, so we'll simply do our best for that Iowa Surprise.

Thanks for sharing the piece, Cryofan.

[el_gato]

5. mere opinionated bloviating

boring

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. this part is right

sort of:

"It isn't a "media conspiracy" that is marginalizing your boy; the leaders within the Democratic Party itself have marginalized him. The media is simply reporting on reality."

[redqueen]

Bull$hit

He's so full of it, it's spewing out of his mouth.

Sorry, but when the media talks about his love live and not his policies, it's pretty hard to pretend like there's nothing going on there.

Is he the only Democratic candidate to have spoken out against the immigration reform deal Bush is pandering with? I'd say that's pretty big news. God knows there are millions of people in both parties and unaffiliated with a party who are seething with anger about the taxpayer-subsidized cheap-labor this will flood the US with.

[cryofan]

10. Well, you are correct about the millions who are mad about cheap labor,

The immigration cheap labor scam is something that is a HUGE issue in working class America. And ALL the politicians (including DK) are IGNORING the will of the people on this.

Again and again, polls show that most people DO NOT want ANY KIND of illegal alien amnesty. That includes most dems and MOST Hispancs!

However, what DK plan put forth in reaction to bush's plan would have little effect on stopping the race to the bottom. Maybe some. Dennis has a good point about Bush's plan keeping illegal beholding to and controlled by their employers. And of course a huge portion (most) illegals do not have the kind of regular employment that would allow them to take advantage of Bush's plan. I prefer DK's plan: let all illegals here stay as citizens.

But DK has ignored the fact that an amnesty would simply encourage MORE illegals to come here. Our politicians need to stop illegal immigration and stop the erosion of benefits and wages that has been caused by the flood of immigratns who have flooded the labor market and caused an oversupply of labor. It is simply the law of supply and demand.

[redqueen]

12. Well, this is a huge and tangled issue

I'm upset about the cheap-labor angle, because it really does seem to legitimize lower wages for immigrants, and ensure that they aren't given any incentive to become citizens.

However IMO if we were to do away with NAFTA, it would be to Mexico's immeidate benefit. Additionally, I trust that the Kooch would ensure that Mexico (if they wish to exploit our vast consumer market) would start making some labor laws of their own, then that would help even more.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

19. "leaders within the Democratic Party itself have marginalized him"

That's the part he's right about. You won't hear me standing up for the Corporate Media, but the first group of people to marginalize DK was the Dems themselves, clearly.

DK is very electable - if the Democratic party would support him - even if he was nominated, I bet they wouldn't.

[redqueen]

22. Completely correct

And I agree with your last statement, however if the voters deliver a clear mandate (as they did with FDR), then the kleptocrats of all stripes would know that the will of the people is behind him so their own jobs would be on the line if they didn't act accordingly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. The Daily Emerald is the newspaper of

the University of Oregon. Therefore, the writer is not a "liberal journalist," but some student with more rhetoric than brains

The only two newspapers in Oregon that would be likely to have "liberal journalists" would be the (Portland) Oregonian, which has the delightfully funny David Sarasohn, and the Eugene Register-Guard.

[MuseRider]

9. I HATED to click on that link

I knew it would make me angry. In an attempt to be fair and learn so that I can continually evaluate the candidates I did read it, it is important to do so but, I have always wanted to do this, my response is....POOP! This part of the message did hit home.

"Many of the e-mails I received blamed people like me in the media for Kucinich's lack of popularity in national polls. I've got news for you: It isn't a "media conspiracy" that is marginalizing your boy; the leaders within the Democratic Party itself have marginalized him. The media is simply reporting on reality. "

I think he made part of our point here.

[Cat Atomic]

11. I really hate this sort of crap.

Clark has supporters. Dean has supporters. Kerry has supporters. Kucinich has "fanatics".

Jagernauth is just marginalizing a candidate he doesn't like, and dismissing anyone who supports that candidate as irrational. If he can't take heat from people that disagree with his opinions, he shouldn't be writing. Grow up, Dave.

[Fovea]

13. a response.

You state in your article – ”for Kucinich, as a white man, to receive fewer votes for president in a national poll than a black woman. I'm not apologizing for that!”

Think again. That statement was offensive and derogatory of Carol Mosley-Braun’s well crafted performance as candidate for President of the United States. The lack of media fairness is phenomenal, and to see you crow triumphantly about it is frankly nauseating. You seem to be celebrating the worst your avocation has to offer the American people.

Most of the Kucinich supporters I know support him because of his platform, not his personality. Here you clearly seem not to appreciate the difference between progressives and regressive NeoCon supporters.

If the Democratic Party nominates a centrist, most of us will vote Dem with a grumble and a rude stare.

But we will vote Dem, by and large. That, in case you have not been watching elections long enough, is what the majority of the progressive core of the Democratic Party has been doing all along. We are not swayed, or brought down by our defeats. Many of us have been fighting for Dennis Kucinich’s platform for a long time.

Further, baiting Kucinich supporters who might actually vote Democrat, even if the Democrat is say, Lieberman, is the worst sort of jejune. Past the contumely for Kucinich supporters who critisized you, there is little in your editorial than the almost absurd shibboleth of the all-inclusive Republican party.

The Republicans are not a big tent party. The Hispanic population probably knows that the Republican party is the party of the Patron, and is not concerned with the working class, and I suspect most Jews are still not comfortable with Christian social conservatives as bed partners.

The Republican party's fatal flaw is that you cannot be a NeoCon by declaring yourself one. You have to be given a no bid contract, or a walk on a white collar felony to play.

The Republican tent consists of resource monopolists, corporatist crooks, defense contractors, dixiecrats, 19th century recreationists, apocalypse fans, and the large terrified mass. It is draconian in its orthodoxy, because it is so synthetic in nature. Tom Delay cannot hold it together through 2004 as Bush begins to sink in the polls.

This article was an annoying waste of time, setting up as it does, a crudely drawn straw man which, after a few ad hominum piñata swings, it does not quite bring down.

[MuseRider]

14. WHOA! Great

response. May I save that just for the pleasure of reading it again? Nice job.

[Terwilliger]

15. there are people who only view electability through the aesthetic lens

and Dennis doesn't serve everybody's aesthetic sense

Still, I think the article has some racist overtones anyway.

[redqueen]

17. You missed it

He doesn't WANT progressives to vote Dem.

[diamondsoul]

16. Let's admit it--he has a point.....

Let's not and say we did.

And seriously, where the hell is all your vitriol for the Kucinich effort coming from all of a sudden? I used to look forward to your posts. Now they just make me angry and sad all at once.

I say again, it is POINTLESS to post criticism for the Kucinich campaign on this board if your true intent is to help the campaign. You won't find Dennis, Dot or the campaign strategist here, all you will do is ensure that some people who might be swayed will be frightened off, and for that reason I have to wonder about your motives.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. because he's done so well in the debates, that's why

The Dean Team need to shore up support to head off the Clarkites - and they need DK fans and Greens and independents ASAP. So, you'll see DK trahsed more than ever in the next two months.

That's good - he gets more attention that way.

On edit: I meant vitrol against DK in genernal, I'm not talking about the poster.

[redqueen]

23. WCTV you give me hope with that comment

Because if he does end up getting trashed, that means we're in the next phase already!

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
then you win."

Next stop, PRESIDENT! :D

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. exactly, redqueen

:)

[brava]

37. Damn right he has a point.

diamondsoul says: "You won't find Dennis, Dot or the campaign strategist here"

That's exactly the problem. They don't have their feelers out, they're not listening. With an unprofessional staff and "fanatical" supporters (a fanatic is one who is ultra-unreasonable and lacking judgement), Dennis is being insulated from valid criticism and creative ideas. You can bet that Dean has people reading this board as well as many others on the Net. Instead of blaming the media for stagnating at the bottom of the polls for the past 11 months, Dennis ought to take a cue from ABC and embed 3 competent staff members on the Internet, just as ABC embedded 3 journalists in his campaign, to be his ears and eyes and bring these criticisms to his attention. It is absolutely vital to his campaign that he takes charge of it. A good leader listens to criticism more than he does to praise because that's how he sharpens his strategy.

"Know your enemy."

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

That means listen to criticism, seek it out, and pay very close attention to that which you don't normally want to hear. Therein is the secret to success, and every successful man knows it. Only losers surround themselvs with sycophants and insulate themselves from criticism.

I don't want him to lose, and I hope that if enough criticism builds momentum the message will resound loud enough to break through to him so that he can take the necessary steps to fix what's wrong before it's too late.

[youngred]

18. No, he really doesn't

most Kucinich supporters I know do not behave that way, but I do see that behaviour from a lot of (thankfully not all) Clark, and Dean supporters. Its too bad too, it doesn't negatively reflect on the candidate...but why the need to bash the most honest, thoughtful and trustworthy candidate in the race?

[cryofan]

25. But is DK out to win?

If he is out to win, he had better start acting like it. He doesn't seem to care about winning. And that makes me angry. I am hoping some campaign volunteer will read my posts here and will get in his face about the way he has allowed the media to portray him. He needs to make some changes very fast. His time is running out. This is an act of desperation on my part. And I wonder why no other DK supporters are desperate as well.

[youngred]

28. I think he is

and so are his supporters, but I don't think he will. The media has already decided who the campaign winner and election winner will be and they're ready to move along and ignore dennis. However, his movement is growing and the further he takes his candidacy the better, the stronger and stronger he polls the more his message and those of the progressives gets out to the people and to the DNC to say that we don't like your centrists and center right cnadidates anymore. I think he's very serious about the campaign and he's trying the best he can with limited money, time and exposure.

Remember Bill Clinton polled about this level at this time of the race in 92. and DK is just getting started

[tinanator]

35. Absolutely and he will

I wouldnt mind getting in your face, but I dont think we attend the same meetings, and I have a very busy schedule.

[AnAmerican]

42. You wonder why we are not desperate

Because we see the support the polls don't reflect. We see things going on that the media will not report. We believe in the man and the message.

Now is not the time for desperation.

Plain and simple. Dennis is doing fine...the votes coming up will enlighten alot of folk. Keep the faith.

[adamrsilva]

21. Harsh, but true

His supporters really need to get a grip on reality.

[redqueen]

26. We're among the few who do, actually.

But thanks for your concern. :D

[Ficus]

29. so we should not vote Democratic?

???

[Mairead]

24. "Let's admit it--he has a point....."

Yes, he does. But a good hairstylist can do wonders, sometimes.


(He's a whiny brat who needs to grow up)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

27. First off, bad title for the thread...

Secondly as for this quote.

"Regrettably, I think America needs a second Bush presidency. The progressives just haven't learned their lesson yet. "

Actually I think he is wrong. Progressives have learned their lesson. That is why they support Kucinich or Greens. Unfortunately it's the 'liberals' and left leaning centrists who do not support progressive candidates. Who are willing to accept corporatist dems.

It's the people that prefer getting 'fu**ed' by a smooth talker with a smile on his face rather than Bush and cronies who do it and gloat.


TWL

[Mairead]

30. Right on, TWL! Right on!

*We're* the ones who 'get it'.

[Terwilliger]

31. that's the lesson

if you don't separate yourself from the other side, why should people think you're truly in opposition?

[corporatewhore]

32. He does have a point......

I suspect the majority will stay with the Democrats. And their rhetoric will amount to nothing in the end. At best a moderately conservative Democrat will be elected president, the Green Party will once again fail to achieve its potential and this country will continue its downward slide, just a little bit slower than before. Regrettably, I think America needs a second Bush presidency. The progressives just haven't learned their lesson yet.


so sad but true the abb movement is one big fucking hurdle towards progressivism

[corporatewhore]

33. Here is a great quote i think sums up the point of this article

I could be wrong "Having to decide between Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- that's not a choice -- that's a threat. Our electoral system favors a two-party race, and we should reject it. We have to start working towards a democratic system that doesn't force people to vote for the lesser of two evils (or the evil of two lessers). We can't keep jumping from election to election, voting for one moron because we're terrified that there's something worse. Now's the time to stop legitimizing this process and take a stand for fundamental, long-term change. It's more important to call attention to the farce of electoral politics than to split-hairs by choosing between Tweedledumb andTweedledee (or The Mad Hatter, the Queen of Hearts and the Doormouse for that matter)."

- The Edible Ballot Society

[redqueen]

34. Great post

Something to think about!

[jfiling]

38. Kucinich fans don't get it

As someone who has lived in northeast Ohio his entire life, I saw the mess Kucinich left in Cleveland after his stint as mayor. It took former governor and current Ohio senator George Voinovich to clean up the mess that Kucinich left ( after soundly defeating Kucinich in his re-election bid for mayor of Cleveland ). I wish you people would take off the rose-colored glasses at look at this man's record, because he's nobody to be proud of.

And for those of you who trumpet his liberal values, just look at CNN's Kucinich page in their Election 2004 section:

"Despite his recent flip-flop on abortion -- he consistently voted against abortion rights in Congress, then adopted a pro-choice stand earlier this year -- Kucinich quickly established himself as one of Washington's most unabashed liberals and vociferous GOP opponents."

What a principled man.

[iowapeacechief]

40. Was he ever your congressman?

I have looked pretty hard at that record, and I appreciate your skepticism. However, I'm also impressed that nobody has taken a harder look than Dennis himself, and one reason I support him is his apparently authentic and well earned comeback. Do you know much about him firsthand in recent years? Did he ever represent you in Congress?

[Dover]

39. I don't think the Dems have learned the lesson of 2000

or they would have embraced and supported the Greens and their concerns (would that have been so hard?) who stood to the Left of the Dem leadership. But instead they moved further and further to the Right. Who's to blame for that?

Dennis has very wisely begun to acknowledge and address those concerns.

This isn't about Kucinich per se. It's about the split in the Dem party between the insiders and the progressives (who actually are just standing for the traditional Dem core values).

[ThirdWheelLegend]

43. "standing for the traditional Dem core values"

exactly right dover!

TWL

[Cocoa]

41. I read it and rolled my eyes

I stopped reading when he got to the white man/black woman part, confident it wasn't worth it to keep reading.