Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A lazy, crappy cartoon shouldn't encourage lazy, crappy reasoning

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:51 AM
Original message
A lazy, crappy cartoon shouldn't encourage lazy, crappy reasoning
Or "A post wherein I piss off everyone and waste their time."

The cartoon in question is a bad cartoon. It takes two stories, the stimulus and Xanax-chimp, and attempts to stitch them together in a "humorous" way. Any way you look at it, the 'toon is in bad taste. Without any further interpretation on author intent or racial connections, making light of a horrible incident that resulted in a mauled, disfigured lady and a dead chimp (using violent imagery no less) risks causing extreme offense if not done -expertly-. Further, given the racial iconography in this country, using animal metaphors with regard to Obama-related policies must be done extremely carefully and clearly. I imagine everyone agrees on this.

The reason there is such debate over possible racist intent seems to me a result of the cartoon being so poorly done--the intent isn't immediately or exclusively clear. As a result, interpretation can swing wide of author intent.

So is the 'toon identifying Obama with the chimp? If you answer that question with zealous, self-righteous confidence and certainty either way, I think you're being lazy in your thinking. People are quite wrong to say that if enough people view the 'toon as racist or not, it is de facto racist or not. Take Hume:

The difference, it is said, is very wide between judgment and sentiment. All sentiment is right; because sentiment has a reference to nothing beyond itself, and is always real, wherever a man is conscious of it. But all determinations of the understanding are not right; because they have a reference to something beyond themselves, to wit, real matter of fact; and are not always conformable to that standard. Among a thousand different opinions which different men may entertain of the same subject, there is one, and but one, that is just and true; and the only difficulty is to fix and ascertain it. On the contrary, a thousand different sentiments, excited by the same object, are all right: Because no sentiment represents what is really in the object.


If you're shaking your head at this, think back to the '08 campaign, wherein Obama's "lipstick on a pig" comment was interpreted as sexism by conservatives. The reason those claims seemed so ridiculous had everything to do with judgment, not competing camps of sentiment. Many hyper-sensitive Palin supporters may honestly have seen sexism there. As a matter of -fact-, however, there was little if any actual evidence that showed attribution to Palin--it hinged on seeing any use of "lipstick" in the context of the campaign as a direct reference to Palin. That was a view ill-supported by the evidence, no matter how many believed it.

So given that the -sentiments- of those who find it racist are valid in and of themselves, is there actual evidence that shows the chimp is meant to identify Obama? Let's take a look:



Ambiguity. If you're looking for direct attribution, it's hard to find here. That's rare in political cartoons--when depicting a public figure, they are ridiculously label-happy and usually hit-over-the-head clear with attributions. Who wrote the stimulus bill? Not Obama--he handed over guidelines to Pelosi/Reid, who wrote the bill with some mix of colleagues, so no certainty there. Is the chimp obviously designed or labeled to represent a specific public figures? No--it resembles neither Obama, nor Reid, nor Pelosi. Could it be a more simplistic one-liner of a representation, not attributable to any individual ("Huh huh, the stimulus bill is so bad the Xanax-chimp probably wrote it")? That to me is the simplest explanation, but is it the correct one? It's hard to say, and again I don't see how anyone could say "yes!" with feverish certainty to any of these questions.

So in isolation, the cartoon is too incoherent to provide us with much evidence for certainty. Looking at past cartoons (especially any containing bigotry!) may lead us closer to the truth. Let's look at this guy's stimulus-related oeuvre:





Now we have a pattern. It seems to run as follows:

1. Wacky news story
2. Near-nonexistent superficial connection to stimulus
3. Comparison of the two
4. ???
5. "Humor"

Octamom and A Rod have nothing to do with the stimulus, just as the chimp didn't. So it's clear the choice of the chimp incident as fodder fits with a pattern of lazy, incoherent stitchings-together of wacky stories and the stimulus, and was not necessarily chosen uniquely for racist iconography. Moreover the "mother" of the stimulus is not represented as Obama, but rather as Democrats generally. If the chimp was meant to directly represent Obama, this shows a break with the pattern.

What about attribution ambiguity? Is it common in his work? Used to pose unflattering animal stereotypes? Not from what I can see. When depicting a public figure, there is either a clear label or a representative caricature, as in this case:



Does this guy have a history of subtle bigotry? Of hiding hateful views under a plausible (if still incoherent) protestation of innocent "wacky" humor? No, he has a history of clunky, obvious, nasty bigotry. There is no room for error whatsoever concerning this toon--it is a hateful equation of bestiality with GLBT folks (where was the outrage for this one?):



To sum up, the cartoon in isolation can be fairly judged as racist, dependent on seeing the chimp as Obama. The wider pattern seems to show little or no evidence of purposed, direct racism, so much as incompetence, ignorance and horrible taste. If we are to accept this toon as intended to racially brand Obama as a chimp, then it is a unique break with the cartoonist's past methods, and moreover represents a couching of the cartoon's message in deniable ambiguity. Subtlety and nuance, in other words, the douche doesn't seem capable of anywhere else.

So to say "that cartoon is racist to me, and I'm going to raise hell" is fine. To say "That cartoon is racist as a matter of inarguable eternal fact, and anyone who denies it is a racist, ignorant of history, or a secret racist apologist" seems a stretch. It's hard for me to see how people can get so vehemently self-righteous in their certainty one way or the other over a clumsy, unclear cartoon that's in horrible taste whatever its meaning. The editor and cartoonist are ignorant and lazy, and should have been aware of how dangerously hateful this image could seem, whatever their intent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. As you sum up:
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 10:21 AM by tuvor
"The editor and cartoonist are ignorant and lazy, and should have been aware of how dangerously hateful this image could seem...."

I'm afraid I have trouble believing that they are ignorant and lazy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Me too, the ignorant and lazy in regards to cultural insensitivity is racist in and of itself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Very much agreed on that--well said
As they say, "ignorance of the law is no excuse", and that applies here as well to cultural 'laws'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Well said! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. yes - very well put
The whole point of a cartoon is to use words/visuals in combination to convey instantaneous message. Words convey meaning. Visual art conveys meaning.

If it is not conveying what you intend it to, if vast nos of people are seeing other meanings in it --- then either you are not being honest - OR YOU ARE A PISS-POOR ARTIST!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
I've tried to make the same point on another thread, but you did it so much better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's still racist, violent, and irresponsible
on the part of the editor and cartoonist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Defending the indefensible, then setting up boundaries of debate
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 10:30 AM by genna
I'm sure there are others who may give your argument a thorough analysis and refutation. I'm not that person.

I am not going to go for the emotional argument of saying (because you can't see what my experience is of this stereotypical image), then you hold the same views of this cartoonist.


Instead I will simply say this, you have taken one cartoon and married them to 4 other cartoons and stated this is what is in the heart of the cartoonist. You limit the body of the cartoonist's work to 4 out of how many years? out of how many how many political images where there is no obvious donkey or elephant to express a view? out of how many racially tinged/overtly racial cartoons?

My point is what makes your limit the most logical or the best case for harmless intent.


I see you attacking the broad context of American history and race as being the ONLY context, but why is your analysis superior in ascertaining judgement or intent? Whether or not the cartoonist's previous economic stimulus commentary is inane does not prove that this cartoon's commentary is in fact inane or inchoate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Here's some more of the "cartoonist"'s works:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
48. Some of them are pretty funny
If you take the stick out of your ass and suppose a little exaggeration is OK in a cartoon. After all, it's not news, it's HUMOR.

:)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Post was picketed numerous times by gay and latino groups, BTW.
So there is a history here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. If this person uses animals to convey meaning:
donkey = democrat
sheep = animal sex
monkey = ???

It is obviously racist.

BTW, your comment below describes exactly the mindset of a certain RWer acquaintance.

"with zealous, self-righteous confidence and certainty either way, ... lazy in ... thinking."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nonsense
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
11. Regarding the concept of de-facto racism.
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 12:02 PM by Uncle Joe
I believe that is as much a reality as quantum physics, just as an object can change it's properties from the mere act of someone looking at it.

This is where I disagree with Hume, If enough people feel a certain sentiment regarding a given object, that object's properties change as well.

Just as the Swastika's meaning has totally changed since the days of Hitler from what it was before. The power behind that symbol has morphed, and that power, even if only sentiment is real.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. Man, you put a lot of work into that - why? It's a blatantly racist, violent cartoon.
And I don't need to spin multiple paragraphs to "explain" it to anyone.

Fucking amazing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Why are people so determined to give this cartoon a pass?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Two reasons.
1. They themselves are racist and they enjoy the cartoon.

2. They sense the opportunity for a flamewar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'll add another: Mental Masturbation
I mean - fucking Hume?

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. That would fall under #2.
And maybe #1.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. This cartoon is going to be a Broadway musical by the end of the week - bet on it.
:silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Uhm, no.
I've stated elsewhere that the cartoon, given the history of the NY Post, is likely to be racist. But there's nothing wrong with, I don't know, actually considering the deeper motives and possibilities involved instead of coming to that conclusion via knee-jerk reaction. So to say that "mental masturbation" is racist or provoking a flamewar is patently unfair. We SHOULD discuss these things fully and not rule by mob, thankyouverymuch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. I'm liking two for this one..I cannot
believe that the OP can't see the fucking danger in letting this shit go unanswered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. It is indeed a lazy, crappy and thoughtless cartoon
Which appears to be what passes for the cartoonist's "style". Other parts of the "style" seem to be mean-spirited, bigoted, tasteless and vicious--very common characteristics among a certain portion of the political world, alas. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing in the brain beyond slogans and a sneer.

And his doodles are the self-portrait of an ass with his head up his own...well, you get the picture. Appalling that such passes for "talent" in this world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hey, at least you admitted it was a waste of time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. K, R, the works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. I would be interested in your response to #32 below
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Popular public perception is that this is "Obama's" bill.
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 12:12 PM by yodermon
Google "Obama's stimulus bill".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=WUY&q=%22obama%27s+stimulus+bill%22&btnG=Search

72,000 hits.

"Obama's stimulus package" ==> 283,000 hits.

Public perception is that Obama is the "Author" of the stimulus bill, since he's been championing it and negotiating for it, and had veto power over it.

That one may argue the technicality that Congress is the true "Author" of the bill adds just the right amount of plausible deniability to cause a shitstorm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. What you said, with a kick.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. Is there no way Obama looks like a chimp for real?
Why does it have to be racist? Bush looks like a chimp, walks like one, holds his arms like a knuckle-dragger - why can't someone think the same about Obama without it being racist?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. How dare you present facts and reasoning...
When people have the opportunity to FAUXRAGE.

The outrage has nothing to do with ACTUAL racism. People are searching for it.

Thoughtless stupidity becomes racism. Poor wording becomes racism.

The problem few consider is that whining about this cartoon diminishes the effect when there really IS racism, because you've cried wolf a few too many times.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. K & R. Heavy thinking.
I commend you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Karl Rove, is that you? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Rove is famed for his nuanced, well-considered thought. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Wow, you just don't get it. It's ok so you're fine with tolerating racism
You mind if the rest of us react differently. Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. I don't know if the lack of labeling is much of a slam dunk....
... I expect the cartoonist would have been well aware that portraying Obama directly as a chimp would be highly insulting and probably would prevent publication. But suppose he wanted to do it in a way that would give him plausible deniability? Have the cops mention something that people associate with Obama.

It's safe to label Pelosi, she's being portrayed as a woman, which she is.

The lack of labeling, when he normally labels his subjects, could mean the chimp was supposed to represent the only chimp in the news recently (who also writes legislation apparently) or it could have been dog whistling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. The fact that the cartoon can be judged racist, and they knew that, and ran it anyway is what made
it racist. They knew the ambiguity was there. The cartoonist may have been clueless (doubtful) but the editors knew it, or with the most charitable interpretation they were incompetent. In either case they should have responded with an immediate apology. If you create the ambiguity and then don't adress it then it is fair to assume the worst interpretation without having to evaluate every cartoon they have ever issued.

Had they made a sincere apology immediately I would have found the premises on which you have put this exceptionally well thought out and argued OP acceptable. The problem is that having run an editorial cartoon that COULD be considered racist they didn't issue and immediate apology stating that it wasn't intentional and they were sorry for the misunderstanding.

Why?

Because they wanted to maintain a "were tough and we don't listen to THOSE guy" atmosphere of their paper. And that's because they are racists. They just didn't give a damn that tens of thousands of their fellow New Yorkers felt smaked across the face.


So if we take the most charitable understanding of their cartoonist technique, oblivious to well established racist icongraphy in the United States; and we take the most charitable understanding of their editorial work habits, they are lazy and ignorant; then the ownership is still saddled as racists. They don't give a damn if they accidentally cross the line - they carry it as a badge of honor.

They have absolutely proven themselves to be the dispicable folks we thought they were.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I think there's a fundamental difference in how we define racism.
I think--and I would venture the guess that OP does as well--that to be racist is a sin of intent, and not omission. By my view, in order to call a person racist, it is not enough to say that a person is indifferent to complaints of racism, nor is it enough to say that they engaged in an action that others might view as racist. They must hold malevolent intent, whether in thoughts or in deeds. Suppose I am your neighbor across the street and I am practicing my baseball swing with rocks and a metal bat in my yard. Suppose I connect especially well, and send a line-drive rock through your window. It is true I am negligent, and it is true I have much to apologize for, and it is true that it does not particularly matter to you whether I intended to break your window. But does that mean I broke your window with any malevolent intent? I don't believe it does; I'm just a jackass who didn't think through what I was doing.

I must make myself clear; I am not saying that blithe ignorance and hard-headed dismissal of concerns are not offensive, because they are. Nor am I suggesting that the cartoon does not stoke racial tension, because it is clear that racial tensions have been stoked.

What I am suggesting is that I do not believe that is a sufficient case to declare racism on the part of the cartoonist or the editor, nor to declare that the cartoon is racist in intent. Any of those may be true, but the cartoon is not grounds to say so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. racism absolutely does not require malevolent intent
the classic example is institutional racism. there is no one evil racist person who has malevolent intent to explain away all the racial disparities that still exist.
there was a time, not so long ago, when white juries routinely acquitted white defendants...the Emmett Till case, for example.
while it's true that all the people on the jury may have had malevolent intent, but it's also true that at that time, in that place, a white person killing a black person was perfectly acceptable to MOST white people.
today people see that type of thinking as crazy, but it was the norm in america until 50 or so years ago.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Malevolence and normality are not mutually exclusive.
Malevolent thought is often quite acceptable and socially normal. The Jim Crow era is a perfect example.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. racism didn't require malevolence, just acquiesence
i just don't buy the argument that racists are evil people because i don't think most racists are evil. many of the people who yelled and screamed a black children trying to go to school in the 1960's weren't inherently evil, they were simply following the social script of the time. and the social script of that time was that feeling superior to black people was their god-given right. some people challenged that belief system, and many simply went along with it because it benefited them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I think that's the thing that's tripping up a bunch of people
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 07:43 PM by Number23
They want to see EXPLICIT INTENT in the form of a memo from the head guys at the NY Post that the cartoonist should deliberately create something racist and inflammatory to generate publicity. Anything short of that, and they don't believe that this cartoon is racist because it may not have been DELIBERATELY crafted to be so.

Some of the most racist things done in our country and alot of racist activity done today would not be construed by anyone as DELIBERATELY racist. Any time a person of color is denied a job because folks are worried that he won't "fit in" around the office or denied housing because folks are worried they won't "feel comfortable" in that neighborhood. And not to mention the day to day experiences of having to work harder and be smarter because otherwise you and your contributions will be completely ignored. None of these are outright DELIBERATE racist acts, but they are racist nonetheless. In fact, I'm sure if you were to call someone who did any of these things out, they would be shocked that anyone would accuse them of racist activity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes, this post is a wast of time. If you need to continue to rationalize bigotry,
I need not to waste my time reading your rationalizations. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'm hesitant to K&R yet another thread on this topic, but your insights are valuable
I must confess that I haven't read more than about 10% of the posts concerning this cartoon. But then, that was about my average for the Rick Warren outragefest, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
40. Here is what does it for me.
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 06:13 PM by Zodiak
Political cartoonists are not just artists who are dragged off of the street doing portraits for $50. This is a journalistic tradition with a rich history. The cartoonist for the Post most likely went to school to build the credentials for this job. And during his time in school, he would have received a full education in American history and specialized courses in journalistic ethics and tradition I absolutely find it difficult to believe that a political cartoonist working for a newspaper that has been around since 1801 would have no idea that the image he chose would be interpreted as racist.

Even failing that, I have an even harder time believing that the editors of the same paper somehow missed out on this information in their educational background, as well.

And even failing that, racism can manifest itself without malice. Saying something racist out of ignorance has the same effect as it does when it comes from malice. In fact, it is twice as sad because it reinforces to those being dehumanized exactly how widely-believed it is that they are less than human.

I know this because I used to be a bigot and a racist out of ignorance. I was raised that way, and at the time I would have denied I was a racist till I was blue in the face. But even my education in science revealed to me how ignorant I was, and I began to fight to correct this mistake my parents made years ago. I still occasionally make these mistakes from time to time, and each time I do it it is still bigoted or racist, and I am glad to have it pointed out to me. This jack-off has been gigged for being a stereotyping asshole long ago, and has made absolutely no effort whatsoever to try to understand why he was gigged for it. Even this time he denies it without introspection, and the editorial staff (minus one editor) seems to have the attitude that the people offended just have a political axe to grind.

All of this evidence is enough for me to determine that these assholes are acting out of malice. Their plausable deniability argument has some serious holes, and they are determined to learn nothing from this. This is not the behavior of someone who is racist out of ignorance...such a person would want to know why what they did is considered racist and try to correct such behavior.





Doing ambiguously racist things and then ridiculing the people who are offended for their thin skin is just the latest game racists and bigots like to play, and it was especially on display in the last year or so. I would like to ask that you please refrain from participating in this game by focusing only on the plausable deniability.....racism is a playing field that is not largely based on cold logic and the dictation that we treat it only as such denies the obvious fact that racism is a mostly emotional issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. Good grief. Do people trying to defend this cartoon work for the NY Post? Let's see
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 06:24 PM by ProSense
1) Bottom cartoon, insulting to who: sheep and NJ? (I know the assholes at the Post are targeting NJ's marriage laws.)

2) Above that, the car is an inanimate object: the economy.

3) The pregnant donkey (symbolic of Dems)

4) Bull being injected (see #2)

5) Chimp with two bullet holes in the chest: The chimp doesn't represent an inanimate object, it represents the author of the stimulus, a person (Obama), being shot dead because the assholes at the NY Post find the stimulus objectionable.

Is the chimp obviously designed or labeled to represent a specific public figures? No--it resembles neither Obama, nor Reid, nor Pelosi.


Police officer in cartoon: "They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill."

Not only is the cartoon directed at a specific person, but it's also the only one of the cartoons targeting a person with violence.


The NY Post is run by assholes, but they're not stupid. They damn sure knew the cartoon's context was offensive.



Edited typos.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
43. I agree. My opinion is
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 07:05 PM by CTLawGuy
It is possible that, but unclear whether, there was racist INTENT behind the cartoon, because there is more than one plausible interpretation:

1. Obama is the monkey, because, according to the artist, black people are equivalent to monkeys.
2. Obama is the monkey, but because of other perceived characteristics having nothing to do with race, maybe a belief that Obama is out of control in regards to the stimulus bill, just as the chimp from my state was out of control.
2. The stim bill is so bad, it was probably written by the crazed monkey - thus the crazed monkey does not represent Obama.

It is clear, however, that there is a plausible racist interpretation, and that the NY Post was foolish to allow the cartoon to run knowing of this interpretation.

It is objectively clear that the cartoon is racially insensitive in light of the historical canard that compares blacks to monkeys. As such, people have a clear right to be offended by it.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. He used his story mash-up as a cover for a racist cartoon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
45. This cartoon is racist
and its intention was racist.

But, it serves another purpose. It serves to distract us from the very real problem that faces us. That problem is the faux outrage over Obama's recovery and stimulus proposals we witness on TV every evening. There is collusion by the media to take Obama down and discredit his every move. This is as obvious as the intent of the fucking cartoon. We had better address the issue of a one sided media and now, it is THE most pressing issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. Excellent post!
I'd tone down the nasty name calling of the artist, but other than that minor unrelated quibble, it was surely spot on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Budgies Revenge Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
49. I would have to agree that this cartoon
is at worst, blatantly racist if the cartoon is implying that Obama is the chimp, and at best, open to a racist interpretation. Unfortunately, the cartoonist left enough ambiguity as to who or what the chimp represents with the reference to the stimulus bill, that it is easily possible to make a racially charged connection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC