If torture HAD to be done - and it was still illegal

[Canuckistanian]

Why wouldn't they just get someone to do it and then immediately turn themselves in?

In other words, if it was done for such a noble purpose, why didn't they confess to the crime and then throw themselves on the mercy of the court?

And even if the court found them guilty, why not just issue a presidential pardon?

[Fresh_Start]

1. because the people who said do it, aren't noble enough

to take their consequences

[Canuckistanian]

2. Probably because they're psychopaths and just like to torture

There are some, I've heard, who hated the idea that torture was illegal and couldn't WAIT to get in power to prove their "theory".

Actually, I blame this all on an article done by Alan Dershowitz back in 2002.

"Want Torture? Get a Warrant"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

Notice the "ticking time bomb" defence.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

22. 9/11 gave them a WIDE OPENING for PNAC-ers and other wingnuts to test their "theories"

The results of the last eight years:

They've always believed that unrestrained and unregulated capitalism (further enriched by favorable government interventions) would create mountains of wealth that would magically "trickle-down" and make everybody quasi-millionaires. Well, we know what happened to the banks and the economy in general.

They believed that we could successfully invade/occupy/subjugate any country of our choosing whenever we wanted and for whatever reason. Well, we know what happened in Iraq. To use a metaphor, we went in and blithely kicked over that "anthill" but ended up being attacked by a swarm of fire ants in response.

They've always had fascistic/authoritarian tendencies and have always balked at not being able to rough criminal suspects up on a whim, hold people indefinitely without trials just on their say-so, or wiretap with impunity.
Well, during the past 8 years, they decided that they had free reign to torture people (or facilitate torture by taking them to notorious human-rights abusing countries), operate a prison camp that, until recently, was consistently kept outside the rule of law, continually flout Congress' attempts at oversight and correcting the (mis-)administration's previous misconduct (Detainee Treatment Act), hold people indefinitely without trials, or at least tribunals that were HEAVILY (if not totally) stacked against them, and spied on AMERICAN CITIZENS without a warrant. All of these things have severely wounded our long-standing alliances, undermined our reputation, eroded our moral authority, helped facilitate the recruitment of jihadists throughout the world and NONE OF IT made us ANY safer (quite the opposite, actually) nor prevented any catastrophes!

Worse than all of these things is that they have bloodied and muddied things so much that previously unthinkable things such as torture are actually DEBATABLE topics now and even command SOME public support (if the circumstances seem to warrant it). :puke:

[OneGrassRoot]

3. Because it was just one big PNAC dog-and-pony show....

dangerous and destructive as always, but with the intention of stirring up shit, creating more enemies, thus creating more fear, and creating a more and more easily led populace all in the name of America.

It had nothing to do with keeping America safe. Just the opposite. For the sake of argument, IF they had good intentions (*cough*), they were still FAILURES at keeping America safe. 9/11 happened on their watch AND they created more hatred of the U.S. -- and more division WITHIN the U.S.

EPIC FAIL.

There isn't one truly patriotic one of that bunch. Chickenhawks, thieves, criminals.

[Canuckistanian]

4. Oh, yes, I agree with you

But why isn't my argument made by opponents?

If the torturers WERE sincere AND "noble" (*cough*BULLSHIT*cough*) and they KNEW torture was wrong, wouldn't they at least admit to SOME wrongdoing in the name of appealing to popular sentiment?

It would probably go a lot further than this "nothing wrong with torture at all" sophistry?

But then again, I don't think there was a lot of sophisticated thought here.

Only egos, bigger than the Grand Canyon.

[OneGrassRoot]

18. Ego...and fear.

I don't see this group as having integrity or courage. AT ALL.

Throwing themselves at anyone's mercy is not part of their thought process. Manipulating everyone and everything is at the core of their existence, with the end game being power.

[HopinAndDreamin]

6. PNAC is called something else now..

Darn I have to look it up now

[Occam Bandage]

9. There are much easier ways of endangering America

than setting up a complex and secretive system of prisoner abuse and hoping somebody finds it and publicizes it. If they wanted to stir up shit, why didn't we find out about it until the absolute ass-end of the Bush Presidency, and why did they fight tooth and nail to keep it quiet?

[OneGrassRoot]

16. I think they covered a few of the other ways, too....

I get the impression that it wasn't such a secret, except from the American citizens who only watch MSM. It was pretty common knowledge in 2004. And they mainly wanted the Middle East to know, not the American public.

I mean, they had to at least PRETEND they had noble intentions to keep the public behind their war effort.

If investigations get down to the core of the matter and re-expose the timeline of events, they could actually be held accountable for so much.

The public MIGHT actually be in a frame of mind to absorb the reality about all the warnings leading up to 9/11 that was on Bush's watch; the reports of how Iraq was on the table before 9/11 even happened, etc., etc.

If all the puzzle pieces come together, it's very damning. I think they're working really, really hard to keep fear at the forefront, continue to rewrite history, and prevent those puzzle pieces from coming together.

[Occam Bandage]

10. There are much easier ways of endangering America

than setting up a complex and secretive system of prisoner abuse and hoping somebody finds it and publicizes it. If they wanted to stir up shit, why didn't we find out about it until the absolute ass-end of the Bush Presidency, and why did they fight tooth and nail to keep it quiet?

[WinkyDink]

5. Your introductory dependent clause is the problem here.

[Canuckistanian]

7. Yes, I know

But if rationalizations are to be offered, why "it was legal because we say it was"?

That's the lamest of excuses.

[Phx_Dem]

8. That is an excellent point.

:fistbump:

The answer is, there is nobody "noble" in the Bush administration. They were all liars and crminals who tortured to find a link between Al Quaeda and Iraq, not because there was a immediate threat.

[Canuckistanian]

12. Well, thank you

Somebody gets my greater point.

[Occam Bandage]

11. Because they had Yoo and Bybee under the authority of the DOJ explicitly declare

that waterboarding was not torture and therefore was not illegal.

[Canuckistanian]

14. But why the NEED for Yoo and Bybee at all?

If they had done it the way I suggested, there would be no need to create a whole huge legal basis for torture.

I don't know. maybe I'm trying to invent a fictional justification that they never thought of.

[Raine1967]

13. This is a bit of a strawman. I know it is not the intention.

I get where you are going -- I have a problem with the *if's *

I don't want to set up a false situations to defend. We have enough reality right now.

We don't need *what if* situations. Bottom line, torture -- it did not have to happen. Torture simply did NOT have to happen.

[Canuckistanian]

17. I think that's the final word.

There never WAS an anticipation that this would get out.

Therefore, no clever strategy.

[Raine1967]

20. it was never meant to happen.

They wanted a permanent Majority
They failed.

they forgot about truth.

[Raine1967]

15. Torture was ALWAYS illegal -- it still is -- EOM

[Raine1967]

19. For them -- it was not a crime.

That is a pretty important point. They do not think it was a crime...

OR...

maybe -- They knew it was a crime -- So why would they turn themselves in ?

No matter what, no one is going to come clean -- not for nobility. These Folks tortured -- They really don't care bout the constitution. That whole cruel and unusual punishment thing -- it is kinda a joke, at this point.

[stillcool]

21. It wasn't covert torture..it was overt..

The one thing I am certain of is that the United States Government has tortured before...but they never had to seek a legal finding to declare these techniques legal and advocate their use in interrogations.

[NoSheep]

23. FOLLOW THE MONEY