How liberal is Wesley Clark? On women's right to choose he's completely

[Maddy McCall]

liberal. Many in this forum have speculated that Clark just CAN'T be liberal, but take a look at this article:

Clark: Abortion decision is the mom's alone
By JOHN DiSTASO
Senior Political Reporter

January 8, 2004

CLARK favors choice
MANCHESTER — Democrat Wesley Clark said yesterday he would never appoint a pro-life judge to the federal bench because the judge’s anti-abortion views would render him unable to follow the established judicial precedent of the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision.

The Presidential candidate also told The Union Leader that until the moment of birth, the government has no right to influence a mother’s decision on whether to have an abortion.

“Life,” he said, “begins with the mother’s decision.”

The retired four-star general said he will discern a prospective judge’s position on abortion not with a litmus test, but by reading his previous decisions to ensure that the judge has never upset existing judicial precedent.

Much more at: http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=31260

[Hawkeye-X]

1. Problem is.. Clark's extremely unpopular with

women voters.. I've seen that Clark is in single digits with preference of women voters.


Hawkeye-X

[Maddy McCall]

2. link please

[Clark Can WIN]

107. No doo ! Here's a photo of the General with a

member of the female support he does not have.



Oh, and I'm also big money, a corporate stooge, a DLC puppet and a GOP plant............. but wait - you haven't heard the latest!!!!

According to the latest "advancing theories" I really want * to win again. I guess that makes me Karl Rove. Damn.

[QC]

3. Got a source for that? n/t

[ClarkGraham2004]

8. LOL

[Hawkeye-X]

18. Here's another DU thread talking about JUST that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=70019

Hawkeye-X

[BootinUp]

19. All things change -eom-

[Piperay]

21. Well

he is very popular with this woman...ME. :-)

[Clark4VotingRights]

106. As a woman voter who supports Clark, I'm surprised to hear that HawkeyeX

}(

[oasis]

4. jchild, your link seems to confirm what you say. Solid.

I'm for Kerry but Clark is a strong second.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Thanks

[Buffler]

5. Just to be devils advocate

“Life,” he said, “begins with the mother’s decision.”

If it is not a baby, then the woman is not a mother.

[Maddy McCall]

9. What should he have said? The female incubator??

At the choice to have a baby, a woman can consider herself a mother.

Is this is the best critique you have of his position?

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. Semantics. It was a figure of speech. You know what he means. n/t

[Clark Can WIN]

108. It's not a baby until it can

live on it's own.

You can produce a hundred offspring and NEVER BE A MOTHER.

[bowens43]

110. Are you saying that a baby can't live on it's own at the moment of birth?

Or do you mean it has to be able to fend for itself? Find it's own food and shelter etc?

[Clark Can WIN]

109. It's not a baby until it can

survive without a woumb or machinery.

You can produce a hundred offspring and NEVER BE A MOTHER.

[Jack_Dawson]

6. Clark is more liberal than Dean, that's for sure. No NRA rating

for one thing...

[Hawkeye-X]

12. Well, Dean'll grab WV based on NRA ratings

and most of the South. Gun toters of the South don't vote for liberals. They vote for centrists.

Hawkeye-X

[Maddy McCall]

13. Dean has no chance in the South

None at all. Not in the general election.

[bowens43]

17. Actually he has as good of chance as Clark

and even if he didn't we don't need the south to win.

[BootinUp]

24. Just the fact that

you said Dean had as good a chance in the South as Clark, destroys your credibility IMHO.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adamrsilva]

91. You're right Clark might win Arkansas

But that won't give us the electoral votes we need. A Dean win in gun-toting Ohio will.

[Maddy McCall]

25. Really? Tell campaign strategists that...they would surely disagree.

[Jack_Dawson]

31. Gun toters in the south vote for southern military men

if we're being honest...

[Buffler]

30. NRA Rating

I asked this on another thread but no one has responded. I am asking because I honestly do not know the answer.

Dean has an NRA rating. Clark does not. But does the NRA give a rating to someone who has never held elected office before nor run for elected office before? If they do not, then the tactic of saying "Clark doesn't have an NRA rating" as a positive is disengenious at best.

[JVS]

35. That spreads to all issues

Clark has never had to get things done politically. He is free to have any stand on issues that he wants because he's never had to make things work.

[bowens43]

47. And since he has no verifiable history

he can test the waters before he decides what his stand will be....

[JVS]

51. And don't think that these stances won't be different if he makes it to...

the General election.

I like to tell all the moderates I know about Clark's liberal stances to turn them off of him.

[Lefta Dissenter]

98. Oh wait a minute,

which candidate is it that is waiting until after Iowa, NH, and most likely the Feb 3 states to put forth his tax policy? Oh that's right, it's the guy with his finger in the air... or is it up his... nose?

Go read Clark's positions on his web site. At least he has the balls to take a stand - agree with him or disagree, he doesn't expect people to vote based on faith.

[hilzoy]

75. Huh?

"He's never had to make things work"??? Just what, exactly, do you think is involved in commanding the armed forces during a war?

[Maddy McCall]

77. Good point, hilzoy...

and welcome to DU :hi:

[JVS]

81. Good point for me to poop on!

He quoted half a sentence out of context.

[Maddy McCall]

83. This opens up a discussion that should be reserved for another thread

and that is the issue of the military being a PART of the political process.

Any military historian will tell you that the military is an arm of the government that political leaders use to achieve objectives.

But I will reserve my opinion on this for another thread.

Anyhow, it is extremely naive to discount Clark's military experience and its intricate relationship to political process.

[JVS]

87. It is also naive to think that military experience is a substitute for....

political experience.

How is this man going to get things passed?

[JVS]

79. Did he have to push orders through an ideologically opposed congress?

Jesus Christ! I was speaking of political issues not military issues! Or is that the same for Clark supporters?

READ THE WHOLE SENTENCES!

[Hoppin_Mad]

36. Many of us prefer a long time liberal over a suspiciously recent convert

[Maddy McCall]

43. Then you are obviously not supporting Dean.

[Jerseycoa]

54. sweet and swift

:7

[Capn Sunshine]

45. When you participate in the # 1 killing industry in the world

you don't NEED an NRA rating


WAR
Millions killed yearly!
Six more kids today!

[JVS]

53. The National Depleted Uranium Association might give Clark an A

[bowens43]

10. Until the moment of birth???

There's no way I could support that. Until the moment of viability , yes , but till the moment of birth? This will KILL Clark's chances of being elected. I think he will find very few people who are willing to support abortions at 9 months.

[Maddy McCall]

11. Read on. He is saying that government has no place in the decision

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

[bowens43]

14. I did read on.

I'm telling you that if publicly states that he is not opposed to abortions right up until the day the baby would have been delivered he will lose big time. Do you support aborting a baby that would have been born naturally later today?

[bhunt70]

16. He's not saying he supports it

He's saying he (and the law) has no right to get involved.

[bowens43]

23. Semantics.

So he doesn't think that a baby (that's what it is at the end of nine months, no sane person will deny that) should be protected by law?

I hope he shouts this one loud and often, it will be the final nail in his political coffin.

[Maddy McCall]

40. Exactly, and it isn't about semantics. It is about a "hands off" position

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

How does that equate to supporting late-term abortion???

[Maddy McCall]

22. If it has severe congenital defects and the parents and doctor decide

it is their best option, YES.

Late-term abortions are overwhelmingly performed for this reason, and such abortions should be decided by those parties and not by politicians.

[bowens43]

26. And suppose they just don't like the hair color?

Is that enough of a reason? After all, it's the womans choice right until the MOMENT of birth.

[Maddy McCall]

29. Do you know of ANY late term abortion cases that occurred on THAT

criterion?

Get REAL. :eyes:

[Buffler]

32. The question wasn't

how many have happend for that reason, but would Clark (or anyone for that matter) support such a thing?

[Maddy McCall]

37. He wouldn't support it or deny it because he says it isn't within his

realm of influence. His quotation again:

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

[bowens43]

50. No, I don't but it certainly is a possibility if the government

says that until the MOMENT OF BIRTH it is the mothers decision.

[LandOLincoln]

74. That NEVER happens. Ever.

The whole "partial birth abortion" canard is a RW lie. Live, viable late-term babies are NEVER, EVER aborted for any reason but to save the life of the mother.

I'm amazed that this kind of crap is taken seriously on this forum.

[Maddy McCall]

76. Thanks LandOLincoln

welcome to DU, by the way. :toast:

[LandOLincoln]

86. Thanks, jchild.

It's good to be here--usually. :hi:

[conservdem]

103. Are you sure of that and what prevents it from occurring?

[LandOLincoln]

114. The Hippocratic Oath, among other things.

It sets forth rules of ethics and conduct for all medical doctors (Hippocrates was the father of medicine).

[conservdem]

116. What are the "other things" to which you refer?

And is it specifically addressed in the Hippocratic Oath?

[conservdem]

102. Are any actually done late into the 8th month?

If so is it for any reason other than to save the life of the mother?

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. Ummmm.isn't this a moot point? At least, for now?

Didn't the mindless wonder just sign a ban on Late term abortions? If I recall he and a group of about 10 White MEN were on stage and he signed it...with Jerry Falwell sitting in the front row smirking. :puke:

How many women do YOU know who have had an abortion when they were 9 months pregnant because they WANTED to? Please. Give me a damn break! That is such a stupid issue.

As a reminder.....

<snip>But less than an hour after Bush put his pen to paper, a federal judge in Nebraska sharply questioned the law's constitutionality and issued a limited temporary restraining order against it. U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf said he was concerned that the ban contains no exception if the woman's health is at risk as he issued an injunction applied only to the four doctors who brought the suit.

"While it is also true that Congress found that a health exception is not needed, it is, at the very least, problematic whether I should defer to such a conclusion when the Supreme Court has found otherwise," Kopf said.

Besides Nebraska, hearings were also being held in San Francisco and New York City Wednesday on similar challenges.

Fully aware of the impending legal obstacles, Bush said, to a standing ovation and the longest round of applause during his brief remarks: "The executive branch will vigorously defend this law against any who would try to overturn it in the courts."<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/abortion.ap/

[bowens43]

55. Stupid issue?

It was a stupid remark from what is supposedly a an intelligent man.

[Maddy McCall]

60. You think that his statement was STUPID???

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

He is saying that the law has NO PLACE in the issue of abortion. That is NOT stupid.

[conservdem]

104. Do you know if the law prohibits all types of later term abortions or

just those done by one type of procedure?

[BootinUp]

28. I agree with that

But the Government needs to promote birth control more. Especially in the High Schools.

[Mz Pip]

15. I read the article

3 times and did not see any quotation marks around that comment. I wonder if Clark really said those words or what context they were taken from. If he did, it was a mistake for sure.

There is nothing I have ever read that Clark has said or written that give me the impression he supports abortion up until birth.

MzPip
:dem:

[bowens43]

27. It's no secret that I despise Clark but I hope you're right.

This would be a terrible position for anyone, Democrat or Republican to take.

[Maddy McCall]

34. Not necessarily...he is saying government has NO PLACE AT ANY TIME IN THE

PREGNANCY. There is nothing wrong with his position.

Most libertarians would adore his position, because it completely removes politicians from being allowed to intrude on a personal decision.

[Buffler]

38. Yes or No

Should one be allowed to abort a baby minutes before natural birth for any reason or no reason at all?

[Maddy McCall]

44. For the 10th time, Clark's position:

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

[Buffler]

48. I asked you personally

Do you give a yes or no to my question?

And since you posted Clarks position in response, would you say that Clarks position is supportive of the right to abort a child minutes before natural birth for any reason or no reason at all?

[Maddy McCall]

52. How I feel personally is none of your business...

but since I started this thread, if you have any intellect at all you should be able to infer my position.

For the eleventh time, Clark's position is that the government should neither support or prohibit a woman's right to control her own fertility:

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

[Buffler]

58. If you are supportive of such

actions then I couldnt disagree with you more strongly. And by your continued posting of Clarks statement I can safely assume that he supports the same and thus if he is the democratic candidate I will be voting 3rd party or leaving that line blank on the ballot.

Such an extreme position has lost this democrats vote.

[Maddy McCall]

61. Yeah, and in '64, people like you thought that civil rights was extremist

[Buffler]

63. People like me?!?!?

I will refrain from personally attacking you, as you have me.

But you are sick in the head if you think it is a civil right to kill a child moments from birth on a whim. Which is the position you hold. And if Clark supports such, which all evidence suggests he does, and he is the nominee he will go down in flames. Big flames.

[Maddy McCall]

66. Not a personal attack. You said "Such extreme positions..."

And in 1964, advocating civil rights for African Americans was considered an extreme position by many people.

So, please enlighten us. What are the extreme positions about which you speak??

[Buffler]

67. For the 10th time

supporting the killing of a child moments from birth when there is not a health reason for either the mother or child is an extreme position. Period.

[Maddy McCall]

69. No no no no no...you said "such extreme positions" <--plural

Enlighten us on OTHER extreme positions that you percieve have harmed the democratic party?

[Buffler]

70. Fine

drop the s. Clearly a typo. As this thread is about one specific subject.

Again, it is an extreme position.

[LandOLincoln]

84. Buffler,

"But you are sick in the head if you think it is a civil right to kill a child moments from birth on a whim."

THIS NEVER HAPPENS. EVER. "Moments from birth on a whim???" You're out of your head if you think viable, late-term babies are ever aborted for any reason except to save the life of the mother, and even then an emergency c-section to save the mother's and child's life is a far more likely option.

You really should know better than to swallow this kind of wingnut nonsense.

Oh yes--my credentials? I work for the Department of Ob/Gyn in the School of Medicine of a large university.

Thank you.

[Maddy McCall]

85. impressive credentials

Thanks for lending your expertise to this discussion.

[Buffler]

88. The question is not does it happen

the question is, does Clark support such. And from all appearances, the answer is yes.

[LandOLincoln]

112. That's a profoundly illogical thing to say, Buffler.

It simply doesn't happen that way, ever, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION. Clark certainly knows that even if you refuse to accept that simple fact.

Therefore only in your convoluted and highly partisan mind can Clark be accused of supporting a non-event. You see how that works?

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. Oh, for crying out loud!

Tell me, how many women do YOU know, personally, who have ever had an abortion at 9 months in the pregnancy? :grr:

[bowens43]

56. It doesn't matter how many.

Should a mother be allowed to abort right until the MOMENT OF BIRTH if she changes her mind about wanting the child? Clark , apparently , says yes. If that the case he will lose big time.

[SahaleArm]

42. Bingo - Mothers health versus having the child...

Should the government decide? I think not.

[bowens43]

59. At what point does it stop being a 'personal decision'?

At 9 months it is a child not a fetus. If the mothers life is not in danger and the child's life is not in danger , should a mother be able to decide to abort that child? According to the article you posted , Clark says yes. If this is true, it will finish Clark's political career.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Sexism is evident in your post...you assume women are too fickle to

decide in the first trimester whether or not they want to abort.

The scare tactics you are using should be reserved for the anti-choice wing of the Republican party.

"Gee, Bobby left me, and the baby's due tomorrow. Anyone know a good abortion doctor?" GET FUCKING REAL.

[Buffler]

72. Obviously they must be

that fickle if they need the right and ability to abort upto the second of birth.

[Maddy McCall]

73. Educate yourself on the history of abortion regulation and get back to me

until then, /ignore

[Buffler]

82. I know the history

and need no education on it. I also know that your position and Clark's position is an extreme one, and rigtfully a big loser with voters.

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. 26%

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

this is a primary position...don't worry, he'll start talkin to God like dean has and that will change in time for the GE.

[bitchkitty]

39. So?

The other candidates are pro-life? Sorry, no big revelations here.

[JVS]

57. Clark always has the courage to not rock the boat!

I can't wait until his inspiring commitment to preventing scurvy becomes the topic of convresation.

[Maddy McCall]

65. Captain Cook would argue that preventing scurvy is an important action

;-)

[bitchkitty]

96. Oh, you won't have to wait long -

As soon as Matt Drudge or Newsmax puts it up on their site, someone will link to it.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. Clarks position on abortion

"I'm not a chick. It's really not my problem"

(sarcastic projected made up quote using life like Clark speak)

[FrenchieCat]

64. As a "chick"

It's my problem...and I would like it to remain so. Clark has got it just right!

[Maddy McCall]

68. I chose to ignore that offensive post...

shows how people who consider themselves "progressive" on issues suddenly revert to neanderthals when the topic of women's right to choose surfaces.

[Printer70]

71. The DLC's little poll-tested candidate

He has no political experience or record so they can just poll his answers for him. Occasionally, he goes off script and then his political consultants need to correct him.

Notice:
--
Clark was asked if would appoint or reject a prospective judicial nominee who passed all of Clark’s criteria but happened to be known as pro-life.

“I don’t know,” he said. “It would depend. I don’t have litmus tests. I want a guy who will do judicial precedent.”

But following the interview, Clark telephoned a reporter to clarify.

“I’m not going to be appointing judges who are pro-life,” he said.

Asked again how he will know a nominee’s position on abortion without applying a litmus test, Clark said:
--

[BootinUp]

89. Are you suggesting

That he wouldn't compare the candidate judges record against judicial precedent, IOW he wouldn't really look at a judges record?

There's a difference between clarifying, and flip-flopping. Clark's statement was right both times, the second time it was more clear.

[Printer70]

90. Clarifies?

He said he wouldn't have a litmust test.

The he says he wouldn't appoint pro-life judges which implies he's applying a litmust test on the abortion issue to judges.

Then he says he's not applying a litmus test.

A litmust test differs from precedent. There are precedents for pro-life positions and pro-choice positions: parental notification, taking minors across state lines, etc. Someone who merely follows precedent could take what would be considered a "pro-life" position. So Wes cannot say he wouldn't apoint pro-life judges AND claim credibly he's not applying a litmus test.

[quaker bill]

78. Which decision?

The one that resulted in conception or the one about whether or not to terminate?

[Maddy McCall]

80. The key quotation:

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

[adamrsilva]

92. Those people are right. This is a bad position.

Most are pro-choice, but most do not accept the idea of abortions after the point of viability... Clark may not support that, but Republicans would make it look like he does by his statement here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. The more I read Clark's actual positions, the more I like him

He did NOT parse nor speak in CODE. He is very straight forward on certain issues and this is one of them. I am leaning more towards him on many ways...this only serves to help.

[Maddy McCall]

94. Yeah, and when he thought he might have been vague on the judge

point, he called the journalist back to make SURE he was clear.

I like it and like his position.

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. He's spot on

on this one. Keep the government out of it.

[Hippo_Tron]

97. Any woman who thinks that Bush is going support them...

On Women's issues more than Clark will really needs to have their brain checked.

[Maddy McCall]

99. I don't think there's any question about that.

:-)

[Kat45]

101. "Until the moment of birth" was the reporter's words, not the quote

And the Manchester Union Leader is an extremely right-wing newspaper. I remember it from way back. Until I see a legitimate transcript of the comments in their entireity, I am going to assume it is RW media spin, not Clark's own words.

[sandnsea]

113. oh thank heavens

I thought Clark had completely lost his mind. I hope he was very strong on a woman's right to an abortion, but up and until the moment of birth is a bit much for most people. Even me.

[Draven]

105. I like this.

I'm pro-choice and I'm glad Clark is.

“I’m not going to be appointing judges who are pro-life.”

and

“I don’t think you should get the law involved in abortion,” he said. “It’s between a woman, her doctor, her faith and her family and her conscience. You don’t put the law in there.”

At least Clark can see that. Why can't Republicans see that?

[Tinoire]

111. There's a lot more to being Liberal than just being pro-choice

No wonder we have so many confused voters here!

The day Cheney admits he's pro-choice & pro-Gay rights, will we welcome him in too :shrug: He can even parade his daughter around as proof.

Amazing :wow:

[Cheswick2.0]

115. talk is cheap and so is wahtever is writen on candidate websites

just remember Kucinich made a big transformation and then voted for the bullshit PBA ban. Talk is cheap.