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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:50 PM
Original message
Dean Will Trounce Bush And Critics
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 07:16 PM by burning bush
Three reasons why Dean will change the form of the general election, and defeat Bush:


1) The Campaign

Dean has rebuilt (or at the very least is rebuilding) Democracy in the United States. In 2000, only half of all eligible voters stayed home. Why? Apathy. Those people do not see voting as a means of creating change. Dean's campaign is offering those disenchanted voters a means by which they can regain hope. Every bit of the process sends a message, from the way Dean raises money (Read - I owe my success to people, not corporations), to the way he organizes from the bottom up, not top down (read - You know what works best in your town/region/state) speaks volumes about the way Dean feels about Democracy, and the way Dean would govern--and those disenfranchised voters are responding. How else can you explain Dean's success? He's not the usual Dem candidate, with all the usual Dem ideas. Dr. Dean is a different type of candidate, running a different type of campaign.

Dean's campaign is a microcosm of a Dean Presidency. Activist. Populist. Responsive. Inclusive. Effective.

If you want to beat George W. Bush, we had better not resort to the "same old same old" type of campaigns that Dems have run in the past. We got lucky with Clinton, but there won't be any Ross Perot to eat up the Republican vote this year. We need every voter we can get, and Dean is getting them - across the board.


2) Dean's States Rights Position.

The press and the opposition, are describing Dean as a wild eyed Northeastern Liberal. Either that, or the far left thinks Dean is too conservative. Is this weird, or what? What is behind this?

The problem that detractors are having stereotyping Dean is due to the fact that Dean, like his campaign, is coming from a completely different direction, and nobody knows how to get a handle on him.

The way I see it, Dean is a progressive state's rights advocate. Every position - his stand on women's choice, civil unions, gun policy, Bush's tax breaks, health care, etc - can all be linked to a progressive stand on individual state's rights.

So, why do I like this? Because it brings the South, South-West, and Near-West states back toward the Dem party. The idea of Sate Rights is a part of the Southern mindset going back to the beginning of this country. South and Near West states are typically independent, and distrustful of Big Brother type government. Bush has given us an opening in those western states with the horrible Patriot Act. Dean has already positioned himself as an independent minded candidate behind state rights. It doesn't take much to make the leap and see Dean taking these states from Bush, or at least making Bush spend resources there. Resources that Republicans are not used to having to worry about.

The idea that we need a Southerner to win the South is tired, and dangerous. One day, may not have a Southern Dem going after the nomination. We need a different strategy, and Dean is the ONLY candidate offering a strategy that will work.


3)Security and Economy

"It's the economy stupid" might have worked for Clinton, but it may not be our lifeline this year. The national security issues are different than they were 12 years ago, and the economy looks better than it really is. (Are we seeing Enron accounting at the Fed level?).

Some folks think it will take a military man to take on Bush, but I STRENUOUSLY disagree! Putting a General or a war hero up against Bush allows Bush to dictate the parameters of the debate, and then Bush simply plays the "Don't Switch Horses In The Middle Of The Stream" card.

Just look at the 2000 election. Gore is widely criticized as not using Clinton enough. In other words, Gore should have been able to use the Peace and Prosperity strengths of Clinton's Presidency to use that same "Don't Switch Horses In The Middle Of The Stream" card that Bush now owns.

How did Bush defeat Gore, or more correctly, how did Bush get close enough to Gore to be able to cheat so effectively?

He redefined the debate.

Bush ran as a someone who could bring the parties together (never mind that it was always the Republicans that were the ones responsible for the high levels of acidity and acrimony). People loved Clinton, but were tired of the rumors, endless bogus scandals and the constant arguing.

Bush made the election about restoring peace within our own government, and Gore let him.

Look now at 2004. How can we beat Bush on the economy? His tax cuts seem to be working (don't look at those jobless figures behind the curtain, please). How can we beat Bush on security? He hit Afghanistan hard after 911, and took out Saddam (don't look at those terrorists behind the curtain, please).

The thing is, Bush has enough of the artificial appearances of success to be able to use the Horse/Stream card. We need a NEW debate.

Here comes Dean, talking about State Rights. Tying security (disappearing funds for Homeland Security, National Guard deployment, etc) into States Rights, and tying the economy (Bush's tax break putting burdens on the states, etc) into States Rights as well.

Plus, Dean is a practiced and successful balancer of budgets. Security and the economy are tightly linked, and financial security is at the heart of every successful economic plan. Balance the budget!

A military man might win Bush's security debate, or he might lose. Dean offers a debate Bush can't win, not without undoing every action of his Presidency.
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dean won't get that far
He's committing too many gaffes and as a result he's now being too tentative.
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Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Unlike Clark...
who has committed no gaffes such as:

1. Hanging out with Serbian war criminal, Mladic.
2. Having his picture taken with KLA terrorists (play great in the heartland)
3. Insulting southerners by saying "All Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented.'
4. Supporting the war in Iraq
5. Doing GOP fundraisers
6. Repeatedly expressing his gratefulness that Bush was President

and it goes on.....
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. New Gaffes trump Old News
every time...look it up.
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Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I guess lying about WMD is "old news" too
Let's forgive Bush for all his "mistakes" because after all, it's "old news". Give me a break. Clark was cavorting with terrorists, hanging out with war criminals...Rove will make minced meat out of him by waving the flag and questioning Clark's horrible judgement. Compared to these serious errors in judgment, saying that Saddam didn't make us safer (which is true) look trivial.
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Please allow me to rebut....
1. Hanging out with Serbian war criminal, Mladic.
(from clarkmyths.com)

"At the time Clark met with Mladic, Clark was director of strategy, plans and policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. According to a 1999 Newsweek article, those who knew the general chalked it up to a last bid for a diplomatic solution when the international plan to divide Bosnia appeared destined to fail. Despite Clark's meeting with Mladic, the plan did fail. Yet the US continued to negotiate with Milosevic and, at Milosevic's insistence, Mladic. Clark was a key player in negotiating the Dayton Peace Accords, and it should be noted that no amnesty was afforded to either Milosevic or Mladic for their role in atrocities against Muslims."

2. Having his picture taken with KLA terrorists (play great in the heartland)

See above

3. Insulting southerners by saying "All Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented.'

Never heard this quote - please show a link.

4. Supporting the war in Iraq

"Wesley Clark's statements are not in conflict. He would have given the president leverage he said he needed in a diplomatic negotiation. But, if the president had told the congress and the American people of his real plans to invade no matter how Saddam and the UN responded, he would have voted no."

5. Doing GOP fundraisers

He also did a number of Democratic fundraisers.

6. Repeatedly expressing his gratefulness that Bush was President

Never heard any of these statements either - please show a link.
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Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. My response
>3. Insulting southerners by saying "All Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented.'

>Never heard this quote - please show a link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/135064p-120343c.html
"Well, he shouldn't have said those things. I think all Americans - and this is a joke! - all Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented."

My comment: Hardy har har. Not a joke.

>4. Supporting the war in Iraq

>"Wesley Clark's statements are not in conflict. He would have given the president leverage he said he needed in a diplomatic negotiation. But, if the president had told the congress and the American people of his real plans to invade no matter how Saddam and the UN responded, he would have voted no."

This is NOT leadership. You don't give a blank check to the President and then say "well I didn't know he was going to stiff the UN, etc.". Clark said he would have voted for IWR. Now, saying that he would have opposed it "had he known..." is a sad commentary on his sense of responsibility. Don't support a war resolution that gives the President the authority to carry out the war in ways that you disagree with.

>5. Doing GOP fundraisers

>He also did a number of Democratic fundraisers.

So he only "cheated" a little bit?

>6. Repeatedly expressing his gratefulness that Bush was President

>Never heard any of these statements either - please show a link.

04.10.03 -- "President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt." -- Clark

05.11.01 -- "I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there." -- Wesley Clark

01.07.02 -- "President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." -- Wesley Clark


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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Let me comment -
I didn't want a trash Clark thread, and you'll notice I mentioned Clark not one time in the original post, but your post deserves a bit of comment.

1. Hanging out with Serbian war criminal, Mladic.

Here's a great Clark photo op. Thats Clark in the middle, with Mladic just to the left (Clark's right). How fun, they are playing "switch the hat"!



And here's another photo of Mladic



That one would be his Interpol Wanted Poster from this page:
http://www.interpol.int/public/Wanted/Notices/Data/1995/54/1995_47754.asp

Mladic is wanted for the following:
ASSAULT, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, CRIMES AGAINST LIFE AND HEALTH, GRAVE BREACHES OF THE 1949 GENEVA CONVENTIONS, MURDER, PLUNDER, VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR.


2. Having his picture taken with KLA terrorists

Here's the photo. The man on the left is KLA leader Hashim Thaci.



The KLA, or Kosova Liberation Army, has been linked to Osama bin Laden, and has received training from Al Queda terrorist operatives.

Clark has a bad habit of getting photographed in a friendly pose with some nasty characters.


3. Insulting southerners by saying "All Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented.'

Here's the link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/135064p-120343c.html

And the quote:

Q: And what is Clark's reaction to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's pandering comment that that he, Dean, wants the votes of Southerners, i.e. "guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks"?

A: "Well, he shouldn't have said those things. I think all Americans - and this is a joke! - all Americans, even if they're from the South and 'stupid,' should be represented."

Well, at least Clark said he was joking. But does that make it OK? Can I call your mother a prostitute, as long as I say "This is a joke"?

Well, I wouldn't accept that shit. But that's just me, I guess.


4. Supporting the war in Iraq

"Wesley Clark's statements are not in conflict.


Here's what Clark says in a September New York Times article:

At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question...I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position -- on balance, I probably would have voted for it

Clark himself recognizes that he has said it both ways, that he once said would never have voted yes on the IWR, and that he also said he would have probably voted yes on IWR.

Unfortunately, Clark contradicts himself in the October 9th debate when Judy Woodruff asks:

Woodruff: But you acknowledge there were some changes in your statements about Iraq . . .
Clark: No

All above at Factcheck.org
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=107


5. Doing GOP fundraisers

He also did a number of Democratic fundraisers.


It's OK to do Dem fundraiser if you're a Dem. It's actually a GOOD thing!

It's NOT OK to do Republican Fundraisers if you're a Dem. Very Bad.
tsk tsk tsk...

Why is this difficult for some people to understand?


6. Repeatedly expressing his gratefulness that Bush was President

Here's the quote:

At the Pulaski County GOP Lincoln Day Dinner in Little Rock, Arkansas on May 11, 2001, General Clark declared: 'And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there.'

and later in the same speech-

"President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship."

and AGAIN, in a Jan 2002 speech:

"I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander-in-chief, our president, George Bush."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,524416,00.html

thanks for your time... Please vote Howard Dean in your state primary, and in November in the GE.

Unfortunately, the Time article appears to have gone into archives.








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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. kick to the top
for the day crew
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Dream On, lol!
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 07:04 PM by burning bush
Q-Do you know what they call a student who finishes second in med school?

A-They call him a Doctor.

Q-Do you know what they call a candidate who finishes second in the dem primary?

A - They call him General.

Q - What do you call the doctor that wins the Dem Primary?

A - You call him President Dean, MD :)


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Hmmm?
More General Nonsense from a Clark supporter?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. good post!
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StephNW4Clark Donating Member (547 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Please watch NBC Nightly News tonight :)
"George Bush, I believe, in his soul, is a moderate."

- Howard Dean

"I believe George Bush is a two-term president."

-Howard Dean

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. and of course, that was before the events which led to Bush's demise
in the polls.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well put.
Kudos.

I might point out that Dean's states rights proclivity is reasonable. He recognizes that constitutional guarantees take precedence. That's why the right to choose is in no jeopardy and why gays will be on the path to equality even though Dean will leave it up to the states to decide how to do that.
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Good Point
And why I refer to Dr Dean as a Progressive State Rights proponent.
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Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good Post- Dean just 6 pts back of Bush
In recent Time/CNN poll, despite not having introduced himself to the rest of the nation. Only a fraction of Democrats are paying attention now, and Dean is already neck and neck with Bush in a theoretical General race.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. agree...and if we had a shread of "fair media"....Dean would be up by even
more
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kick to the TOP
Cause Dean ROCKS!
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. Excellent post
thanks
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. Dean's the Real Deal and that
has alot of people worried sick about their loss of power.

How boring this would all be without Dean in the race. :kick:
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Zinnola Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great post!
:kick:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Dean will kick Bush's ass
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. People who disagree, who speak against Dean after reading this
have no respect for you or me. None.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
25. None of these issues will matter
The Chimp's cash and the willing media will have Dean defending his lack of experience for three straight months. The Economy will never get on the same page.

There is only one way to win--Nominating someone who neutralizes the National Security issue.

Sorry, but if there were no 9-11, no state run media with a clear agenda, I'd be right on the bandwagon with you.

But to save out country, we have to get bush out! And unfortunately Dean can't do it. Please think about this before it's too late.
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Bush Controls The Security Debate!
What is it you don't understand about that?

We need to control the message, only Dean offers the Dems this opportunity, and only Dean will have anywhere NEAR the cash to compete with Bush.

Did you really read my post? Nominate a military figure and Bush simply plays the "Dont Change Horses..." card. This nuetralizes your neutralization.

Even deck? Nope, sitting Presidents usually get the benefit of the doubt--advantage Bush--and you've wasted the opportunity to take the debate away form the neocons. Youv'e given them 4 more years, and a mandate.

Please vote for Dean, vitalize Democracy, and reset the balance of power.
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. kick
for endorsements!
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