Isn't It Amazing That The Healthcare Debate Is Between Rahm And The "Leftwing"?

[Beetwasher]

"Leftwing" is in quotes for a reason.

The Repubs are completely out of the picture.

And the debate is really about the minutiae of HOW healthcare reform will be enacted. Not IF, but HOW.

THIS is how you control the debate. Rahm is quite the lightning rod, huh?

Now, I'm not saying there's necessarily a game of chess being played here, but it sure is nice that the debate is what it is, and that the side representing a strong public option appears to be winning.

[grantcart]

1. Besides the chess analogy these guys don't do improv and they don't leak

So it is very difficult to know what their exact strategy is, but they do have one, they stick to their script and their record for success is very high.

[Cha]

13. They certainly do!

They know how the corporatemedia treats Dems and they know how the rw bellows, whines, and lies.

[stevedeshazer]

2. Yeah, it's infuriating.

I'll see your "Leftwing" and raise you a mainstream-most-Americans-agree.

I agree, the Republicans are completely out of the mainstream of American thought, yet the media continues to frame every single Obama position as leftist.

[Beetwasher]

3. But My Point Is They Are Completely OUT OF THE HEALTHCARE Debate

Besides some symbolic gestures, the real debate is happening between Dems. And it's about HOW reform will happen.

THAT is a debate I'm MUCH happier having.

This is a significant and competent campaign to control the debate we're witnessing. At least, that's my hypothesis. I submit that Rahm's "mispeaking" was nothing of the sort. It was deliberate so that this would be the debate, and so that he would LOSE. That is how you control the debate. And the Repubs are nowhere to be found. They are completely marginalized.

[stevedeshazer]

4. I think we agree.

:)

[Beetwasher]

5. Undoubtedly!

I just wanted another opportunity to clarify the situation as I see it! It's a masterful political game that's being played, and I just want to recognize it!

[Oregone]

6. The problem is the Republicans don't even need to be involved

There are such strong right of center views (in terms of health care) among Democrats that they can sabotage it single-handedly. On one hand you think it is great the Democrats control the debate, but on the other, how do you then recognize that such a "left wing" refused to even consider Single-Payer health care? Its disgraceful.

[Beetwasher]

8. LOL!! Man, You're Pathetic

So, when a strong public option is part of the legislation, you will whine that there's no single payer, even though, that was never promised by anyone or even part of the Dem platform.

It's just what YOU want. Me too, but I'm smart enough to realize that incremental steps towards a goal are better than no steps, and that healthcare reform w/ a strong public option will be a pretty damn significant achievement. But feel free to continue to whine.

[Oregone]

9. Ad Hominem attacks aren't incredibly worthwhile

I don't honestly care what is part of the legislation as long as it demonstrates an effective ability for NO ONE to die or go bankrupt from care, EVERYONE to be covered, the costs to be affordable (defined by some percent of income, per earning level) for EVERYONE, and NO ONE has to ration health care to themselves.

WHATEVER accomplishes that makes me happy. I am 95% sure single-payer would have done that instantly. I have no idea if band-aiding a broken system will work. If some "public option" works to do these things, I'm totally on board. But, the Devil is in the Details with this approach, and Ive always opted to Keep it Simple, Stupid.

It isn't about what I want at all. I already have single-payer. Id like to see my friends and family taken care of as I am.

[Beetwasher]

16. But Yet, You Never Miss An Opportunity To Disparage

Progress is progress.

[Oregone]

21. ....if, and only if, it is actually progress

Which is an unknown. You starting to understand my line of thinking here?

Yes, I think the Democrats are worthy of being disparaged for suppressing effective and proven health care solutions for experimental band-aids on a right-wing system that may or may not work. This is supposed to be the liberal party, and a centrist, pragmatic approach like single-payer is too radical to even debate. Its a bit absurd. And when you ask "why?", it can only leave you with a bitter taste in your mouth.

[Beetwasher]

26. Umm, Any Reform Would Be Progress

Regardless of whether it fits YOUR pet definition of what "progress" is.

[Oregone]

33. In what direction? The right-wing has their views of "progress" too.

Reform for the sake of reform is not automatically a beneficial thing for society (example: No Child Left Behind).

I don't think the ideas I laid out should be considered a personal "pet definition" (no more bankruptcy/death, no more rationing, universal coverage, affordable)

[Beetwasher]

35. Oh Brother

Obviously I'm talking about Reform in the proper direction, unless you're arguing that a public option would be a BAD thing?

[Oregone]

41. Im arguing that we don't know what its effect will be on the overall system

And what additional measures will also bring to the table (taxed benefits, VATS, mandated coverage, etc). It could be good, bad, or neutral in summed effect.

It will probably take years to figure it out. If it has conditional enrollment, and firm regulation isn't put in place on the private insurers, you may not see a significant decline in bankruptcy/death, rationing and costs. It'll probably be 3-5 years before anyone can make a really fair assessment.

I think you seem to be pretty sold on this whole reform hoopla, which is to credit the salesman. Before you go to wild bringing down your detractors, you should know they exist to educate and keep the politicians honest. They exist to make sure the reform you gleefully eye isn't a pile of shit.

[Beetwasher]

42. LOL! But YOU Seem To Know That It Will Suck, Eh?

You don't know either the effect. It could be awesome. It could pave the way for single payer. You don't know and you refuse to acknowledge progress. You don't know the effect any more than I do but that doesn't stop you from disparaging.

[Oregone]

44. No, I definitely do not know its effects, as I clearly pointed out

Its a bit experimental.

Of course this will not stop me from disparaging, as it is one of the reasons for doing so. While they could have chosen a centrist and pragmatic position that is proven to work to overhaul the insurance industry, they opted to experiment with the right-wing system. That is disgraceful from the Democrats.

[Beetwasher]

45. LOL!! OK Nostradamus!! What A Load Of Utter Crap!

So now a Public Option is experimenting w/ the Rightwing System??? :rofl:

What steaming load of crap.

[Oregone]

47. "now a Public Option is experimenting w/ the Rightwing System" - YES!

The system is a right-wing, free-market mess which puts profits and greed before people and public health. Its the leading cause of bankruptcy in this nation, and amounts to a massive amount of wasted capital in the name of free enterprise and private profits. It has been very protected in a corporist fashion by the government, which makes the current "system" very, very right-wing. And in response, nothing more than an unproven experiment of a multi-payer system of 1 public provider and 350+ private ones, and we don't even know the details yet (mandates, open/condition enrollment, regulation, standards, profit limits, affordability standards, etc)

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

51. Who is the joke?

Follow this sub-thread slowly from the start. Ive attempted to be rational about this matter, but you are all over the map building strawmans and attacking me. Agree then to disagree.

I hope the public option will work, but who knows. I do know single-payer would have. Its unfortunate to see it go this way, but whatever. I hope people can have the health care I have.

[Beetwasher]

53. Oh Please

"I hope the public option will work"

Why am I less than convinced?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

22. Merely slowing down the GENOCIDE is OK with you but HE'S pathetic!? WTF?

#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#


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#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#...#


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The above represents a very conservative 50 deaths a DAY (18K yearly) due to Uncle Sam's Profit ...er ... I mean Health Care System.

The slowing down of the GENOCIDE that you apparently are comfortable with might drop the number a few thou and you can live with that? Pathetic!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arkana]

39. If we manage to pull it off, it'll be atonement for 1993.

[Oregone]

43. I think the 1993 reform was a steaming pile of horsecrap

Mandated employers to provide insurance via HMOs?!? Come on now. Can't we do better than that?

[truedelphi]

63. Good insight offered, Oregone.

As per your usual.

Totally agree. I may hitch hike to Feinstein's office tomorrow. It would cost $ 34 to drive, and that is money I don't have now and never will due to medical bankruptcy.


I hate the Empty Suits with the (D) after their names.

[R. P. McMurphy]

14. I hope you are prescient.

My faith is not so strong. I hope the President is gaming the non-progressives to do the right thing but I have been disappointed for so long.

[truedelphi]

62. i wish I could share your optimism, but I am not at all sure that Rahm is

Setting things up so that HE loses.

The Obama adminstration owes way too much to the health insurerance "providers" to lose.

[wyldwolf]

7. I find it more amazing the "leftwing" thinks that... well, not really.

As Slate's John Dickerson observes, "the president's statement, while aimed at reiterating his commitment, doesn't actually contradict anything Emanuel said. If, in the end, if Obama decides that a trigger or a cooperative plan keeps insurance companies honest, then he will say he's kept his word on the goals of the public option. So Obama's statement today can be read as both a walk-back of Emanuel's remarks and support of them. When I pointed this out to a White House adviser, the response was succinct: 'Mission accomplished..'"

[masuki bance]

10. Don't show that to others, they will flip. nt

[wyldwolf]

11. It appears Obama and Rahm...

... are playing the Republicans AND the Moveon/KOS crowd.

[Beetwasher]

18. Blah Blah Blah

Parse away in order to keep your bitterness alive.

[wyldwolf]

20. my bitterness?

The only bitterness in this thread is against Emanuel. More of that "let's create a fantasy scenario that only the netroots can see then be outraged about it."

[Beetwasher]

29. Huh?

:shrug:

[wyldwolf]

54. huh?

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

55. Muh?

:shrug:

[wyldwolf]

58. uh... duh?

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

59. Guh?

:shrug:

[debbierlus]

30. That is just gross - Obama is just a corporate stooge

He has shown NO leadership on creating real reform. He took Single Payer right off the table, and never even allowed it to be discussed. He has the pulpit. Where is the impassioned plea for real health reform instead of double speak?

Not impressed at all.

[depakid]

40. I know you'd just love to see more Republican policies put in place

by so called Democrats.

[wyldwolf]

56. LOL! Now that is a funny, although irrelevant, reply

[PassingFair]

49. It's all "gamesmanship" with you.

Real people are really dying
and going bankrupt in this
country EVERY DAY.

The "mission accomplished" sounds
about as good as "bring it on" did.

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

57. I'm John Dickerson?

[Oregone]

12. Hang on....aren't you the same one that claimed the debate was won and over a few weeks ago?

And now its happening again? Oh my!



Or was that someone else?

[Beetwasher]

17. Uh, It Is Won

Now the debate is WHAT FORM it will take. duh. The debate w/ the Repubs is over, done. We won.

[PopSixSquish]

15. And Isn't it Interesting That Today Harry Reid Found His Spine and Told Baccus to STFU

and not worry about getting Republican votes on healthcare but just get it done.

I also just read a report that said Rahm had several meetings scheduled on the Hill tonight. Deputy COS Jim Messina is also on the Hill as well and he's just as much of a hard-ass as Rahm, just couches it with a Southern accent. Interesting that neither of them went to Russia.

And the good Dr. Dean said on KO tonight that we only needed 51 votes on healthcare NOT 60.

I don't believe in coincendences...

[Beetwasher]

19. Ins't Also Interesting How Rahm's Remarks REALLY FIRED Every One Up??

Emanuel Backtracks From 'Trigger' Comments; Dem Says CoS Made "Hell Of A Mistake

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/emanuel-backtracks-from-trigger-comments-dem-says-cos-made-hell-of-a-mistake.php?ref=fpa

And gives a lot more attention to the "debate" on the issue, thereby educating those who may not have been aware of it before?

Quite the lightning rod that Rahm.

[Enrique]

23. the left wing position is single payer

the left wing was shut out of the process completely.

The debate now is between a compromise by the dems and total capitulation by the dems. We should fight like hell for that compromise (the public option), but we should call it what it is.

[Beetwasher]

25. Bullshit

The debate is happening on the turf of the left, it's not IF reform should happen, but HOW.

[Enrique]

28. it's true that the debate is happening on the dems' turf

that's the good thing about controlling the presidency and Congress.

But it's also true that the left-wing position was shut out of the entire debate. The insurance companies were at the table and the left wing was not.

[Beetwasher]

32. Not True

You don't get to define what's "Left". I would argue a Strong Public Option is a Lefty position. Perhaps not as good as Single Payer, but still pretty darn Left and will almost certainly pave the way for Single Payer (IMO).

[Enrique]

37. the progressive caucus in Congress favors single-payer

that's an objective definition of "the Left". They are supporting the public option, but they are compromising in doing that. It's not their starting position. Now Rahm is asking them to compromise further and they're telling him no.

[Beetwasher]

38. They're Support For The Public Option Too Should Tell You Something

As should their willingness to compromise. Unless you think they are all corporate stooges too? :eyes:

It's a leftwing position, period. Maybe not as left as some would like, but it would a VERY significant accomplishment for the left and shows they are in fact at the table, if their compromise is necessary to get the bill passed. And their support IS necessary, ergo, they are at the table.

[Oregone]

34. Maybe the OPs disconnect is assuming the Democratic Party represents the "left-wing"

Because while the Democrats sit around, picking their ass, trying to figure out how to patch up this free-market killing machine, the "left-wing" is being dragged out of committee hearing for protesting to be heard about single-payer.

[debbierlus]

31. Amen. Obama dismissed Single Payer with a few trite words - it is too disruptive

Wow. Real sweeping debate.

[Oregone]

36. Disruptive? 75% of insured people going bankrupt in case of a medical catastrophe is disruptive

Who are these people fooling? Well, I give them that...quite a few.

[debbierlus]

27. I will believe we will get a strong public option when I see it - terms such as Level Playing Field

Don't give me much hope...

All of the dem leadership keep spewing that the playing field must be level for the insurance companies. This simply translates into maintaining the profitability for the insurance companies. And, that translates into fewer dollars for actual health care.

I want to see what the public option actually looks like. It certainly shouldn't be created with the main goal of allowing the insurance companies to remain competitive.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

48. Oh yes... it's gotta be *killing* the republicans...

it's flippin lovely.

[depakid]

52. Since Republicans don't have any plan at all, Democrats have to step up to play their role

and ensure that their policy choices aren't just on the table- but have a good chance to prevail. And not just on health care.

[masuki bance]

60. Amazing how well everyone gets along here on this thread.

Great host/hostess.

[polichick]

61. I want to know how Howard Dean fits in with the administration on this...

imo he's the guy really running with the change message re healhcare.