What is it about "The Worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression"

[FrenchieCat]

that folks don't want to understand?

What "The Worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression" actually means:

It means that the economy will NOT be fixed really, really quickly.

It means that six months is not going to do it.

It means that we have to be grown up about this and understand that President Obama doesn't "do" magic.

It means that there will be no instant fix to this large ass problem, and job will continue to be lost....and there will be no perfect instant recovery.

It means that we will likely suffer, and that no one is exempt.

It means that President Obama was right when he said it would be tough, hard and long.

It means that we don't get our Pony just because we were patient for a whole six months.

Obama's speech: times still tough; need patience to rebuild economy on solid foundation.
By Lynn Sweeton April 14, 2009 9:20 AM | Permalink | Comments (3)

WASHINGTON--President Obama delivers a major economic speech Tuesday morning where he injects enough optimism to hopefully keep the markets from diving while reminding folks--in case they don't see it all around themselves--times are still tough.
snip

The president urges patience--not instant gratification--because short term solutions don't work.
snip

"There's been a tendency to score political points instead of rolling up sleeves to solve real problems. There is also an impatience that characterizes this town - an attention span that has only grown shorter with the twenty-four news cycle, and insists on instant gratification in the form of instant results or higher poll numbers. When a crisis hits, there's all too often a lurch from shock to trance, with everyone responding to the tempest of the moment until the furor has died away and the media coverage has moved on, instead of confronting the major challenges that will shape our future in a sustained and focused way."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/04/obamas_speech_times_still_toug.html

President's last Press conference.....June 23rd. That was just two weeks ago.

Q: Thank you, Mr. President. If I can just return to the economy more generally. When you were selling the economic stimulus package, you talked and your advisors and economists talked about keeping unemployment below 8 percent. Last week you acknowledged that unemployment is likely to reach double digits, being 10 percent. Do you think you need a second stimulus package?


THE PRESIDENT: Well, not yet, because I think it's important to see how the economy evolves and how effective the first stimulus is. I think it's fair to say that -- keep in mind the stimulus package was the first thing we did, and we did it a couple of weeks after inauguration. At that point nobody understood what the depths of this recession were going to look like. If you recall, it was only significantly later that we suddenly get a report that the economy had tanked.

And so it's not surprising then that we missed the mark in terms of our estimates of where unemployment would go. I think it's pretty clear now that unemployment will end up going over 10 percent, if you just look at the pattern, because of the fact that even after employers and businesses start investing again and start hiring again, typically it takes a while for that employment number to catch up with economic recovery. And we're still not at actual recovery yet.

So I anticipate that this is going to be a difficult -- difficult year, a difficult period.

Q: What's the high water mark, then, for unemployment? Eleven percent?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm not suggesting that I have a crystal ball. Since you just threw back at us our last prognosis, let's not -- let's not engage in another one.

Q: Does that mean you won't be making predictions ever? (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: But what I am saying is that -- here are some things I know for certain. In the absence of the stimulus, I think our recession would be much worse. It would have declined -- without the Recovery Act -- we know for a fact that states, for example, would have laid off a lot more teachers, a lot more police officers, a lot more firefighters, every single one of those individuals whose jobs were saved. As a consequence, they are still making their mortgage payments, they are still shopping. So we know that the Recovery Act has had an impact.

Now, what we also know is this was the worst recession since the Great Depression, and people are going through a very tough time right now. And I don't expect them to be satisfied. I mean, one thing that -- as I sometimes glance at the various news outlets represented here, I know that they're sometimes reporting of, oh, the administration is worried about this, or their poll numbers are going down there -- look, the American people have a right to feel like this is a tough time right now. What's incredible to me is how resilient the American people have been and how they are still more optimistic than the facts alone would justify, because this is a tough, tough period.

And I don't feel satisfied with the progress that we've made. We've got to get our Recovery Act money out faster. We've got to make sure that the programs that we've put in place are working the way they're supposed to. I think, for example, our mortgage program has actually helped to modify mortgages for a lot of people, but it hasn't been keeping pace with all the foreclosures that are taking place. I get letters every day from people who say, you know, I appreciate that you put out this mortgage program, but the bank is still not letting me modify my mortgage and I'm about to lose my home. And then I've got to call my staff and team and find out why isn't it working for these folks, and can we adjust it, can we tweak it, can we make it more aggressive?

This is a very, very difficult process. And what I've got to do is to make sure that we're focused both on the short term, how can we provide families immediate relief and jumpstart the economy as quickly as possible; and I've got to keep my eye on the long term, and the long term is making sure that by reforming our health care system, by passing serious energy legislation that makes us a clean energy economy, by revamping our education system, by finally getting the financial regulatory reforms in place that are necessary for the 21st century -- by doing all those things, we've got a foundation for long-term economic growth, and we don't end up having to juice up the economy artificially through the kinds of bubble strategies that helped to get us in the situation that we're in today.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/23/politics/main5107407.shtml

It means that we have to hold on strong and hit back against the media's attempt in lowering this President's numbers right before Health Care reform is being proposed, and as we start knocking some senate heads in order to insure a Public Option (something that a whole bunch of Democrats don't want to do)...since it has been made clear that it is only with a President who is supported that we will get enough senate assholes to support a strong health care package that includes a public option.

The point is that those who are saying the sky is falling and that President Obama was wrong with how to deal with the economy; with the size and scope of the stimulus; with who he appointed as his economic team....were saying those same things six months ago, six weeks ago, six days ago, and are saying it now still. There has been nothing that has changed in terms of what we are dealing with here; "The Worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression". It wasn't going to just go away....and no one in their right mind said it would.

[PretzelWarrior]

1. nice research.....and I agree.

Obama's proxies need to be out there explaining some of this better. Have some press conferences. Let's get more regular updates to THE PEOPLE--not just congressional testimony.

[FrenchieCat]

3. Our asses need to be questioning the media

and asking them why does someone responding "we are not ruling anything out" to a media posed question asking about a 2nd stimulus, does that morph into rumors of the administration proposing a 2nd stimulus.....?

and why when Pres. Obama has clearly told the public and the media over and over and over again that this was going to be a hard year, and that job numbers would continue to worsen, does the media act like he didn't say that, and that they have decided that six months is the magic number for everyone to get gloomy and pessimistic and start questioning the direction that we are in? If we forget that this is what he said, or we act like he didn't say it,
then we are simply digging our own grave.

The media needs to be made to understand that we didn't expect perfection, even if they did.
That we didn't expect all smooth sailing, even if that's what they wanted us to expect.

We need to let them know that we understand that they understand that lowering the President's numbers might hurt his chances at passing a strong health care proposal that will include the new boogy man (far as they are concerned) a good sound public option.


The media needs to be called out on this....as they are the ones who are attempting to set us up,
once again....and that includes our Liberul media who want to simply say, "I told you so".....

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[PretzelWarrior]

5. thanks for the refresh on media contacts. we need these

often. it is so easy to forget. I'll send a couple before bed and send more tomorrow.

[lindisfarne]

2. How many years of an unjust war did it take to get us into this mess? n/t

[FrenchieCat]

4. A trillion dollar's worth.

[Oregone]

28. You don't really think it was just the war, do you?

[Clio the Leo]

34. ha ha, so then explain how the war HELPED the situation......

....we all know it wasn't JUST the war ..... but trillions spent on a DUMB war ..... money that often wasn't even included in the admin's budget proposals ..... we all know it had a major effect.

[lindisfarne]

42. Couldn't have said it better myself. Some people, here though, miss the obvious &need it explained.

In fact, without the war (and obviously, all the decisions that were justified based on the war - I guess some need that said explicitly) we wouldn't be in the situation that we are today economically.

[Oregone]

47. The war didn't HELP at all. It just wasn't the lone gunman, or the main one

[truedelphi]

6. No President Obama doesn't do magic. Instead he OUTRIGHT defrauds us.

And therein lies the rub. We are not upset with Obama because of the fact that it has been SIX MONTHS and boy the economy ain't fixed yet.

What we are upset about is that the same people that brought us this financial tsunami have been given, by President Empty Suit, such glorious positions of power, with no oversight, that now there are simple and easy to read flowcharts explaining (in a single full page) how much of our Bailout has gone to AIG and from there how much of it went to Goldman Sachs. And if Thom Hartmann can be believed -- the Goldman Sachs manipulation of the monies is quite likely what brought about this GREATEST DEPRESSION to begin with.(See the Thom Hartmann video posted in the political vids from yesterday. URL is http://tinyurl.com/lg5sqy )

Only those on DU who have remained Woefully ignorant of what economics 101 is all about are still Obama supporters.

That includes some I can name.

But every day on DU more and more people are getting a needed but rude awakening. Especially this week, when President Empty Suit more or less SCOLDED the real Democrats for being so progressive and actually having the NERVE to speak up and demand REAL FRIGGIN' REFORM of HEALTH CARE BECAUSE WE ARE FRIGGGIN' DYING on account of Obama and Rahm's nasty little group of Corporate Swine buddies!

This apparently is anathema to Obama - because if the nation somehow arrives at real Health Care Reform, he is going to be out of a whole lot of campaign finance donations from the Big Shot Health Insurance "Providers." He seems to be indicating that he doesn't care if we die, as long as he gets to be President. I am rather confused about what is so special about him being President -with the appointments he has made, i.e. the Corporate involvement he continues to make day after day, like the SWINE ASS jerk Mike Taylor being his new choice for FDA, we might as well have Hillary. (In fact, Mike Taylor made it Big Time at first due to William Clinton.)

So Obama is not that special. As someone who initially delighted me, and whose election kept me up all night (Nov 4th) elated with the thought that a new era was at hand, I am more than disappointed. I am FURIOUS.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Guess you missed the point of my op......although I'm sure you'll say you didn't.

The last paragraph of my op....

"The point is that those who are saying the sky is falling and that President Obama was wrong with how to deal with the economy; with the size and scope of the stimulus; with who he appointed as his economic team....were saying those same things six months ago, six weeks ago, six days ago, and are saying it now still. There has been nothing that has changed in terms of what we are dealing with here; "The Worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression". It wasn't going to just go away....and no one in their right mind said it would."


So get on with your Furious self! Must suck to be as unhappy as you are! Must feel better to have someone to point the finger at. But hey...go ahead and get in line behind the Republicans. They are saying "I told you so" too.

As for the jab as to how ignorant Obamabots are (hey, might as well call a spade a spade),
your dogmatic attacks on what "those people" know is pathetic. :boring:

[truedelphi]

8. Uh it is not a matter of two lines any more Frenchie Cat.

As of Spring 2008

28 % of Americans identified with the Republican party.

32% identified themselves as Democrats.

And the whopping majority did not feel either party lived up to what is needed.
That is 40% of the people of this nation want something else!

(Poll taken by Pew Research)

[FrenchieCat]

9. Yes......and?

Are you leaving DU and forming a 3rd party forum to help out those poor homeless 40% who don't agree with each other on much of anything for the most part? Perhaps there you can persuade them to vote for Dennis Kucinich or something? Six months into this President's term, it's probably worth a try. Why not campaign for 2012 now?.....cause that just might bring you the change that you personally seek at some point, maybe.


Good luck! :hi:


OBAMA'S APPROVAL NUMBERS DRILLED DOWN -

[Norrin Radd]

48. Always with a swipe at Representative Kucinich.

Forgetting the fact that he asked his supporters to throw their support toward Obama during the Primaries. Forbid anyone take a swipe at President Obama, or formerly, General Clark.

[JVS]

38. Technically, 40% is a whopping plurality, not a majority.

[PretzelWarrior]

10. I've taken ECON 201, 202, BA211, 212, 213 acct, Statistics 1 &2

You are full of crap. You are essentially buying in to the cognitively dissonant arguments of the right wing. Obama and any sane person had to pump bucket loads of money into the financial sector or they were cratering. Do you even understand objective reality? THey continued the emergency bailing of water out of the hull while trying to fix the hull.

However, by the mere fact that Obama stepped into this mess and some of the money went to financial institutions on his watch, suddenly he's the source of the problem and a socialist. Guess what? The one who actually took over the banks was Hank Paulson. Did you know that? HE nationalized the banks.

Regarding Obama's appointmens to Treasury, etc. Who was he supposed to appoint? Dennis Kucinich? Do you understand what skill sets and knowledge are required for this job? You are unbelievable. Geitner was not a Wall Street crony like Paulson who settled old scores by allowing Lehman Brothers to fail which set off the gigantic tsunami. Geitner was NY Fed Reserve president. Together with Bernanke, they were trying to stop the bleeding created by the deregulation fiends of Reagan/Bush1/Clinton/Bush2.

Empty suit? That says way, way more about you than it does about Obama. Ever teach Constitutional Law? Didn't think so. Ever direct Senate staff? yeah. that's what I thought.

I actually think you DON'T understand much about macroeconomics (which is more operative here than high school microeconomics 101).

I suggest you watch Frontline's "Inside the Meltdown" to get yourself some education before you start popping off about stuff you don't know.

[JVS]

39. There was a debate vs. a Swedish style response and a Japanese style response to the banking crisis.

Obama's approach is looking more like the Japanese style.

[truedelphi]

50. Geithner handled the Japanese recovery

He was sent by the IMF to the Far East in the nineties to try and sort out the economic mess. There were two methods of dealing with the crisis there - and he choose the one that didn't work.

But in Goldman Sach's America, the fact that you helped destroy a nation's chances for economic recovery don't mean you cannot continue to be part of the game. As long as GS players are on the Obama economic team, GS can be assured that some time in the near future, other game plans resembling the following might once again come to pass:
On September 15, 2008, then New York Fed president, Tim Geithner, pressed for AIG’s biggest counterparty, Goldman Sachs, to help the insurer raise capital after it became clear that AIG was at risk of going bankrupt. And on that same day Goldman’s current CEO, Lloyd Blankfein,
was at the New York Fed. And thus Goldman ended up in receipt of about $12 billion in tax dollars thanks to AIG’s wholesale credit-default swap passing money through to GS after the government bailed out the insurance giant.

[Odin2005]

40. +1! Quit making sense, the purists' heads will explode.

:evilgrin:

[truedelphi]

51. By the way, my point was not that some of Obama's supporters

Have not taken economics classes.

They have. (I mean, I am sure that Geithner and Bernanke have taken economics classes as well.) My point is that if you support Obama's current economic activities, as they are being developed by Bernanke, Geithner et al, then you cannot possibly understand the basics of economics.
Many people out there have taken many economic classes - but most of those economic Studies, from the post Reagan era are so heavily flawed in terms of Supply Side, Milton Friedman-ish theories that it is no wonder we have ended up in the mess that we are in.


Rather - to be a student of the basics of economics, your understanding of economic life would include these ideas:
1)To have a real economy, you need local jobs. This is something that our early Colonists understood very well. Supply Siders rarely (if ever!) talk about the importance of jobs being created locally.
2)Whatever goes up, must come back down. To have a real economy, you want the avoidance of an overall "Too Big To Fail" Speculative Bubble.
(We have had several of these in last fifteen years, and we notice that they always implode, thereby increasing the chances that the overall economy will tank as well.)
2a) Any time that any expert or adviser says, "This is a new economy, and the prices of this type of stock can only go UP and never Down," watch out! That bubble is headed for a fall.
3) Do not put all your chickens into one basket - Diversify! Diversify! Diversify! (Madoff investors would have been better off if they had remembered that one.)
4) Never count your chickens before they have hatched.
5) A bit of regulation is a very good thing. (Where would the economy be today if Glass Steagall had not been eliminated? And when will we have someone in Washington smart enough to bring it back?)
6) Auditing and transparency! Any entity that is capable of handling vast sums of money, such as the Federal Reserve, should also be capable of withstanding being audited. The American people need to know where some 135.5 billion of the TARP ended up. If there is some damn rule on the books that says that the Federal Reserve is a stand alone institution with no oversight allowed by Congress, as some people are claiming over the last two months, then that law should be changed.

SIDEBAR - my son graduated from a very prestigious university with a degree in economics. He always manages to invest right before the bubble in anything bursts. (Luckily he can afford to. )
He has no concept of the Federal Reserve - what is does and doesn't do. If these universities would spend one week teaching the importance of my simple little dictates, rather than requiring semester after semester of calculus, we would all be better off.

[zulchzulu]

43. OK Einstein... so how do you turn an economy around in six months?

Oh... and a fumbling housing market... and job losses piling up... and two inherited wars... and a bankrupted auto industry... and a global climate fiasco... and The Repiglified Party Of No Ideas... and WHINING Purists who think that a Democratic President should have authoritarian, dictatorial powers...

Last I checked, the healthcare votes haven't come yet. Much is in contention... and no, it's not Magic Wand Time to get Single Payer in one effort.

I hope Utopia is treating you well. We, here in Reality, are aware of what can get done in a democracy, warts and all.

[truedelphi]

52. My very first point inside my post was that no intelligent person

could expect that ANYONE could come into office and turn the economy around in six months.

But when the arsonists end up in charge of firefighting, onlookers get nervous!

Bernanke and Geithner were either too dull to see what was happening in the unregulated era of 2004 to late fall 2007, or else they were too corrupt and well rewarded (by their real masters) to stop it. In either case, the result should be that they shouldbe precluded from handling positions of power rather than continuing to hold positions of power.

CASE IN POINT - one thing we know about Geithner's past activities is this little gem:
On September 15, 2008, then New York Fed president Tim Geithner pressed for AIG’s biggest counterparty, Goldman Sachs, to help the insurer raise capital after it became clear that AIG was at risk of going bankrupt. And that same day Goldman’s current CEO, Lloyd Blankfein,
was at the New York Fed. So Goldman ended up in receipt of about $12 billion in tax dollars thanks to AIG’s wholesale credit-default swap pass throughs after the government bailed out the insurance giant.
#####

Now what would a sane policy in terms of economic recovery look like?

Well first of all - the regulations should have be put in place before the money was handed out. It is now occurring to some people that another round of derivatives could be in the process of expanding and then of course imploding (perhaops two years down the road from now.) Why continue marketing derivatives that are of the same nature as those that got us into this fix? And if they have to be out there, they need regulations! And since Glass Steagall was the best legacy of the Prior Great Deprression, perhaps that should be put in place before ANY money is handed out.

Secondly, any entity that needed to be bailed out should be put into receivorship. Period. That way the contracts that said entity must legally be obligated to honor would not have to be honored. But what has happened due to the Bush/Obama economic recovery activities, the entities that were bailed out were not put into receivorship. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb! Most of the contracts involving the derivative CDO's and Credit Default Swaps insist that when new money hits the firm, first the Credit Default Swaps get paid off. And only then can any money (should any be left) be used to address the value of actual REAL property or REAL assets. Experts addressing this situation complain that this is ass backward. If an inflow of cash into a firm is used to address and shore up the value of actual assets, then the Credit Default Swaps will not even come into play, and the real economy would be better off.

Thirdly, due to the tremendous increase of the balance sheet at the Federal Reserve, there must be the ability to audit the Federal Reserve. Its balance sheet has more than doubled over the last twelve months. Although Bernanke claims that none of these monies involve taxation, most people realize that we, and our kids and our grand kids will be paying for these monies, either in tehr form of direct taxes, or an indirect tax, inflation.
There is simply no excuse that the Federal Reserve cannot be auditied. If there is indeed a law that says that the Congress cannot audit said insitution - that law should be scrapped immeidately.

Fourthly - the monies that have been provided to the banks and the financial institutions needed to have had some strings attached. We were told last fall that the whole reason there HAD TO BE A TARP of epic proportions was because the banks had no ability to lend out money, and that this inabuility was causing the economy to collapse. SO the banks were generously given 700 Billion dollars, which they have gone and SAT ON! There has been no help to consumers needing loans. None. But occassionally the banks and financial institutionst that received TARP funds used the monies that were given to thme to speculate on oil and other commodities and drive the prices of things UPWARDS!

This is an especially important point - as the cities, towns, villages, counties and states see that their coffers are dry, they decide to sell assets. For instance, Chicago recently sold off its parking meters toa private, bank-connected firm. And guess what - the cost of parking more than tripled!

Coming soon, a bank owned water utility that charges you about four hundred per cent more than you are paying now.

[dkf]

11. We need some lessons from China on how to do a fiscal stimulus.

China Car Sales Jump 48% on Support, Most Since 2006 (Update2)By Bloomberg News

July 9 (Bloomberg) -- China’s passenger-vehicle sales rose 48 percent in June, the biggest jump since February 2006, as government stimulus spending spurred a revival in the world’s third-largest economy.

Chinese motorists bought 872,900 cars, sport-utility vehicles and other passenger vehicles last month, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers said in a statement today. Overall auto sales, including buses and trucks, rose 36 percent from a year earlier to 1.14 million.

A 4 trillion yuan ($585 billion) economic package has helped China surpass the U.S. as the world’s largest auto market this year and boosted sales for companies from General Motors Corp. to Alcoa Inc. The country is “a positive force” that will help drive growth as the world emerges from the global recession, billionaire George Soros said yesterday.

“China’s downward slide is clearly over,” said Wang Qingtao, an analyst at First Capital Securities Co. in Shenzhen. “There is also huge natural demand for vehicles, which will continue to drive the industry for years to come.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aitR1CpS3KT8

China says June bank lending doubles from May
Associated Press, 07.08.09, 07:40 AM EDT
pic

BEIJING -- China's bank lending in June more than doubled from the previous month as Beijing's stimulus drove a surge in credit that has prompted concern about the possible impact of such a rapid increase.

Chinese banks lent 1.5 trillion yuan ($220 billion) in June, the central bank reported on its Web site Wednesday. That exceeded forecasts and was up from May's 665 billion yuan ($97 billion) in lending and April's 590 billion yuan ($86 billion).

Economists see the surge in lending as a sign of a nascent economic revival as Beijing tries to shield China from the global slump with a 4 trillion yuan ($586 billion) package of spending on public works construction and other projects.

A large portion of that spending is expected to be financed by China's state-owned banks. The latest figure would push total bank lending for the first half of the year to 7.3 trillion yuan (just under $1.1 trillion).

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/07/08/ap6629810.html

If you, like thousands of personal investors in China, are wondering what hot stocks to pick to cash in on the market bull run, take a walk down Shanghai's busy Huaihai Road and feel the heat.

Indeed, the heat wave that baked nearly half the country for over a month and sent the mercury in many municipalities, provinces and autonomous regions to record highs is also setting off a rush by hundreds of thousands of consumers for air conditioners, refrigerators and other cooling aides. While in the shops, they were also picking up other consumer durables such as washing machines, flat panel television sets and cooking ranges.

The buying spree has been further boosted by the government economic stimulus package that calls for, among other things, generous subsidies to consumers in the rural areas for the purchase of big-ticket electrical appliances.

Not surprisingly, leading consumer electronics manufacturers like Gree, Midea and Haier and their foreign counterparts are laughing all the way to the bank. Sales of air conditioners, for instance, have been growing at double-digit rates since May. Suning, a leading consumer electronics retail chain, reported that sales of all white goods in its Beijing outlets in June jumped more than 200 percent from a year earlier.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-07/08/content_8391006.htm

[FrenchieCat]

12. Perhaps we should all become Communists.

That should do it...cause then, one doesn't have to deal with this Congress who had to be cajoled in order to pass the stimulus that we did pass.

Such a Kewl idea!!

[dkf]

13. Oh I don't think anyone would call that a communist model anymore.

Their version of capitalism seems awfully freewheeling to me.

Do they even feed their poor? I imagine there is a lot more Government aid to a poor person in the US than in China.

[FrenchieCat]

14. So what kind of Congress does this "Not a Communist Model" have?

when they passed their policies over there in China?

You know....
Congress?

the ones where depending on where voters live, folks vote for them....
and then they get to sit there and decide if some policy is gonna become law or not? :shrug:

[dkf]

21. Are you saying that having our Congress makes it impossible to do a good stimulus package?

I think I might agree with that.

Beggars for a stimulus package can't be choosers huh?

[FrenchieCat]

24. Yes.....I'm saying that based on the media and the congress' reaction to it,

it makes it damned difficult to do exactly what is needed, and certainly doing more than might have been indicated at the time would have been fucking impossible.

[PretzelWarrior]

15. they do make a lot of numbers shit up over there in China

not sure if I'd believe every bit of data they publish on growth rates.

[FrenchieCat]

16. You mean kinda of like the bush admin!

Strange how now, unemployment is computed so much more truthfully by our mediawhores....
now that Bush is no longer President. How about that phenomenon? Someone musta have given
them some truth serum all of the sudden....or something. :shrug:

[PretzelWarrior]

17. yes. most of the execs running vast percentage of this country

who also happen to have their fingers on the keyboards of newsrooms via shock collars are disgusting. They don't want Obama to veer any more to the left than he has ventured. So they are trying to make him run against a tide of negative spin from them.

Quite convenient, isn't it? The rich white guy who was raping poor people and brown foreigners for the benefit of big business got the benefit of the doubt. This new guy trying to fix some of that mess is getting beat up daily on not even just "ISSUES" but stupid, inane NON issues.

[dkf]

22. So rich white guys are firing poor and brown people from their

jobs simply to make Obama look bad huh?

Its too bad Obama didn't get a good bill from Congress that would have made it harder for these rich white guys to screw the economy. I'm sure they went short too right?

[Oregone]

18. It means that we need little to no government intervention and no 2nd stimulus

:sarcasm:


"The point is that those who are saying the sky is falling and that President Obama was wrong with how to deal with the economy; with the size and scope of the stimulus;"

You seem to continue to ignore that the Administration has admitted that they had no idea that the economy would be in this bad of shape. They predicted an unemployment level over 1.5% lower at this point of time (they predicted a PEAK unemployment of 9% WITHOUT stimulus). They crafted a stimulus based on this erroneous knowledge. Yet, you seem to also be dismissing those calling for a stimulative correction, to compensate for the gap between the numbers originally used and reality.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[FrenchieCat]

19. Are you making those calls?

or have I just misunderstood you.......

YOu wanted something done last I checked.
I'm saying that whatever might need to get done,
instead of whining and pointing fingers,
we better get started....hence I posted media and congressional contact information
as one of my posts here as well as the other place where you and I had
our conversation.

My point is this ain't gonna be easy,
and we all need to roll up our sleeves and get to work,
in making sure that whatever needs to be proposed,
can be done so without it being all shot full of holes,
before it even gets out of the gate.

[Oregone]

20. Im not whining or pointing fingers, but rather, illustrating a correction is needed based on numbers

Its called education. I think it is more constructive than your attempts to pacify those who are not content with the situation as is (you have already told me I should dig my grave for suggesting another stimulus is needed, and told me people will suffer anyway). It seems that it is you who is suggesting nothing should be done at all.

Forgive me for attempting to enlighten anyone who may listen. The fact is the Obama administration, as they have admitted, did not predict the economy being this bad, and therefore, did not construct a stimulus originally to deal with it. Now, you can either sit there and tell everyone who is worried that they are over-reacting and people will suffer anyway, or you can educate and try and start a movement for a corrective stimulus.

[FrenchieCat]

23. I suggest that you start this movement of which you speak of.....

I don't mind doing what I can when you get it going.

I stated in my OP....."It means that we have to hold on strong and hit back against the media's attempt in lowering this President's numbers right before Health Care reform is being proposed, and as we start knocking some senate heads in order to insure a Public Option (something that a whole bunch of Democrats don't want to do)...since it has been made clear that it is only with a President who is supported that we will get enough senate assholes to support a strong health care package that includes a public option."

See, I'm writing my letters about what I believe
will provide a better enviroment to fight against
those who want to slant this in a manner that is not constructive.

This ain't being called the "worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression" for nothing.
It wasn't ever going to be easy and pain free.
It was always going to be difficult and painstakingly slow,
and there were always going to be consideration for a change in direction if required.
That was always a possibility in the cards.

I never heard Obama say......my plan will do it, so everyone else STFU.

He chose certain actions, and he is saying now that it is too soon to
really decide that it ain't gonna work. The folks who are saying it ain't gonna work
are the same folks who were saying "it ain't gonna work" weeks and months ago.

That's my point.

[Oregone]

25. Dont you get it? It "working" and "being to soon" to tell is absolutely irrelevant

All we need to know is that the stimulus bill was created with the notion that unemployment would be about 8% now (before it started working) and would peak at 9% WITHOUT stimulus in 2010.

We are already past the unstimulated peak next year! Even if it hasn't started working yet, we are in a totally different economy than it was predicted to be in. This is a stimulus for a light recession, not the "worse financial meltdown since the Great Depression". The US needed a better stimulus then, and the current numbers only confirms the US needs a better stimulus now.

OF COURSE its not "going to be easy and pain free". But by working as a country (which is difficult), the US could make it a lot less painful for a whole lot of people. Democrats are supposed to care about those type of people you know.

[FrenchieCat]

26. Oh please.......

Get a hold of yourself and regroup and get out there and make them do it!
We are not in a "totally different economy"......
it's just worse than was anticipated...
It ain't the end of the world! Jeeze!

Start writing your letters to various media outlets,
and to congresscritters
so that they can hear your voice saying you want more.
Is that too much to ask?

Or did you just want to go on and on about how
The Obama administration was wrong on this,
and you told us so? cause it is starting to sound like that's your only goal.

[Oregone]

27. "it's just worse than was anticipated" -- Exactly. Much worse. Worse than predicted without stimulus

A weak stimulus was produced for a light recession, but that isn't what we are seeing. We KNOW, for a FACT, that the original projections are wrong. We also know it will take 7 months to a year for another corrective stimulus to make a significant impact. Every day we delay is just more suffering of the people Democrats are supposed to care about. Now, you may not care about those people, but Obama most certainly indicated he does in his speeches. I suggest you line up and get behind your president (whose administration admitted the errors I pointed out), and start pushing for a corrective stimulus ASAP.

[FrenchieCat]

29. If he ain't your President, then you don't belong on these boards!

and that's a fact.

[Oregone]

30. The head of the political state where I live is not Barack Obama.

Should every person like me be instantly banned?

As I said, Obama clearly cares about these people, and the administration has already admitted their error. It is only logical to conclude that they would want to help these people and fix their errors. I see no reason why you are wasting time detracting from your president's cause here, convincing others that these people do not need to be helped. You need to definitely line up behind him and get to work on addressing this problem, as only he would want you to do (assuming he does in fact care about these people).

[FrenchieCat]

31. So at least you realize that Obama my President, and not my God!

That's progress....at least.

As for what I think needs to happen,
I think we need to get this health care proposal done.
That's what I think.

No need to push for a 2nd stimulus now, IMO.....
because a good strong health care proposal will help millions,
and pushing a 2nd stimulus will only weaken our current hand....
so that is my priority, and I don't need chicken littles running around
trying to believe that this United States government will do both,
and do them both at once.

Perhaps you are just naive on how the politics work around here,
but it ain't about what is right, but about what can be achieved
while fighting against the media, the GOP, and the purity patrol.
It ain't as easy as you make it sound in your "end of the world" posts.

[Oregone]

32. Illustrating discrepencies between predictions (used for design) and reality is not "chicken little"

And advocating correction is not an "end of the world post".

Hell, if you can't do both, flush the fucked health care reform down the shitter for now. Maybe you will get it right the second time anyway. :)


"Perhaps you are just naive on how the politics work around here, but it ain't about what is right,"

Thank you for clarifying, but I don't want to play in your world. I don't even so much as want to visit.

[butterfly77]

44. And it really began before that..

more like 2004 for a lot of people...

[Kdillard]

33. Honestly it is like nopbody listens or rahter they are just looking

for reasons to bash the President and his agenda. Everybody has said that it would be difficult. No real turn around would be felt until the end of the year. Why must we continually help the Republicans and the media push their obvious agenda.

[Clio the Leo]

35. It's kinda like what Erin said this morning....

.... on MSNBC.

The number of new jobless claims FELL (good thing!) unexpectedly by 50,000. But Erin Burnett said "before you think that's good news, keep in mind that the number of auto workers laid off was much lower than expected...."

Well, hello? How is THAT not a good thing?

I'm confused.

I'm going back to bed. lol

[Clio the Leo]

36. And who is this dude on Dylan's show.....

.... yelling say that the admin is "inept" and that that unemployment "KEEPS GOING UP!!!!"

Either HE is an idiot, or he thinks WE are!!!!



Does he LITERALLY think that unemploment is going to go 750,000 to a POSITIVE number in a month? What kind of CRACK is he on?

I swear sometimes I feel like Elvis .... I just want to shoot the TV.

[JVS]

37. Sorry, but severity of the crisis makes it even more important that Obama not make mistakes

And as more information comes out, it becomes clear that Obama has made mistakes with regard to the size of the stimulus, handling of the banking crisis, and selection of his economic team. Your post is no better than George Bush's justifying his failing by talking about how the job is "hard work"

[nolabels]

41. Anybody that thinks they themselves could do a perfect job the first six months on the job.......

needs to buy this bridge I'm selling. After all these years of of republicans screwing so many things up even a Obama with a magic wand wouldn't of been able to fix it. Actually i didn't expect him to fix anything but did expect more people to wake up to where things really are. It looks to be a much longer wait :shrug:

[uponit7771]

49. Yeah, he better get every damn thing perfect the first time like Bush did. I do think folk

...are gonna give him some space...well, that's folk that are at least neutral towards him

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. The real meltdown started under Bush's watch let's not forget that

[ProudDad]

46. This is the beginning of the final END

the industrial growth economy built on cheap energy -- mainly coal and oil -- was doomed from the start when coupled with endlessly rutting humans and the ridiculous capitalist demand for infinite growth on a finite world...

We are seeing the END of it now...Thank goodness!!!

http://www.postcarbon.org/look_bright_side