Surgeon General nominee attributes her becoming an MD to "divine intervention".

[bertman]

I'm so happy he picked a woman--especially an African-American woman--but for Dawg's sake, another frickin' God-in-my-life christian.

Separation of church and state. It's an important principle in our government. I'd love to see more of it.

[tekisui]

1. As long as she doesn't recommend divine intervention for someone's

health, I don't really care.

[Clear Blue Sky]

77. Separation of church and state doesn't mean that a government official can't have

their own religious views. Just that the government can't sponsor or endorse any particular religion.

[Jennicut]

2. Praising God might be important in her own life, its fine as long

as its not used in her job.

[Occam Bandage]

3. Seperation of church and state by no means implies

that individuals who work in government ought be disallowed from possessing and/or speaking private religious beliefs. In fact, it protects their right to do so.

[Cha]

35. Exactly, my thought..Seperation

of Church and State doesn't mean someone in Government can't mention what they think is a "Divine Intervention" at a juncture in life.

[Thrill]

4. There is nothing wrong with being a Christain

in your own personal life. Just as long as it doesn't interfere with her work

[SunsetDreams]

5. I don't believe anyone should have to keep their religion

hidden in order to serve in public office.

Separation of church and state, does not mean that in order to hold public office, you can't hold any religious views. What it means is you can't let those religious views interfere with your duties of public office.

This shouldn't even be an outrage.

[BlooInBloo]

6. zomg! A black woman from Alabama is religious! We're DOOMED!!!

Come on. Seriously.

[rvablue]

7. What do her personal beliefs have to do with separation of church and state? n/t

[Arkana]

25. This.

Seriously, there's no quota system. No list where Obama has to go "OK, I've hired 6 Christians, 4 Jews, 3 Muslims, 2 Hindus, a Buddhist, a Sikh, a Zoroastrian, a couple Rastafarians..."

[Number23]

56. Thank you. Apparently no one is supposed to believe in God anymore

[anonymous171]

75. Religionists have no place in government.

:sarcasm:

[stopbush]

8. The other commentators on this thread seemed to have missed the word

"another" in your OP.

The point is that the hundreds of people who are qualified for these science-related positions, and who Obama could be appointing, but Obama seems to be opting for people who wear their religion on their sleeves, like this lady and Francis Collins who has just been appointed to run the NIH.

Why is that?

[SunsetDreams]

10. I didn't miss the word "another"

You seem to think that if only we the "commentators in this thread" had seen that simple word, that we would "see" the OPs point.

I didn't miss the word, nor did I need to see that simple word in the first place to state as fact what Separation of Church and State really means.

[whistler162]

14. Well lets see there is only a supposed quote... no actual

link to a quote so I for one don't know what she said only what some anonymous poster on a message board said she said!

[babylonsister]

17. How 'bout because they're supremely qualified?

I'm not second-guessing who the president selects. I take it on faith (ha!) that he has resumes of a whole lot of people to choose from, and he's picking the best that he can find.

Who cares if they're religious? I heard the doctor introduced this a.m. If her religion helped her have such a compassionate heart to help so many people in the town she worked in, more power to her. She rebuilt her clinic three times, made house calls after Katrina, treated people regardless of their ability to pay. I think we're lucky to have her.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Well I personally would never have a physician who ascribed

to a code of any kind that taught her to treat some people differently than others. I have had the pleasure once and it will not happen again. They can do without our custom.

[rvablue]

26. WTH are you talking about?

Are you being intentionally obtuse because she dared mention her belief in God in her welcome speech?

I think you need to go read up on this wonderful doctor. She has dedicated her life to helping those who otherwise might have not received any care at all due to their inability to pay.

What "code" is this that you speak of, that "taught" the doctor to "treat some people differently than others."??????

[hileeopnyn8d]

31. I guess that "code" didn't

prevent her from being the recipient of the Nelson Mandela Award for Heath and Human Rights.

http://www.kff.org/southafrica/20000829a-index.cfm

Every day I'm more astounded by some of the pure crap that gets posted here.

(not referring to you, btw)

[Number23]

57. "Every day I'm more astounded by some of the pure crap that gets posted here."

Join the club! It's a BIIIIG one. :)

[stopbush]

32. In the case of Francis Collins, his expertise lies in the bio-medical field,

not systems biology or environmental biology. And, according to PZ Myers, "He doesn't understand evolution. He has said that he thinks humans are no longer evolving, that junk DNA is functional, and he can't understand how altruism could have evolved."

In the case of Collins, his religion does effect his approach to science. In fact, he used his position at the Human Genome Project as a soapbox for his religious beliefs.

BTW - anybody who needs religion to develop a compassionate heart is - by definition - missing a few basic traits that inhabit human beings.

[Occam Bandage]

40. So you're complaining that Obama appointed two people who happen to be religious?

Strange.

[KansasVoter]

51. If she worshiped greek gods people here would be OK with it because Obama picked her!

Obama can do no wrong!

[HopeOverFear]

9. If you'd like to see more of it, why don't you try it yourself first?

:eyes:

[Perky]

11. Could you guys give it a rest?

Since when does someone's faith disqualify them from holding public office? Who's narrowminded??????

[apocalypsehow]

58. Nah - prattling about tolerance is always a lot easier than actually practicing it. Just ask the OP.

n/t.

[Tarheel_Dem]

67. Ding! Ding! Ding! I've said a thousand times. Tolerance works both ways. (nt)

[whistler162]

12. Could you maybe supply a link to your "quote"!

[bertman]

13. Stopbush got my point perfectly. It's like a big club of powerful people who seem to want to

stack the membership rolls in favor of their religion.

I'm not going to get over it because it is becoming more and more alienating that I have to listen to public officials proclaiming their religious beliefs. Not to mention my government giving money to religious organizations that proselytize while performing what should be non-religious duties like helping the homeless, the unemployed, and those who are the least fortunate among us.

We are not working our way toward less religious influence in our government. We are seeing the building effects of religious groups and individuals using their positions to influence government policy favorably for their groups. This is not a benign or accidental accumulation of power. We see new evidence every day that people whose agendas are christian domination of government are gaining more and more power. And they are doing it with the intent of making our American government a christian government.

I realize that most Americans have no knowledge of history and how the role of the churches in government has always ended up being a bad combination, so I'll just end by saying that there was a good reason that the Founders, who saw church-dominated governments in action up close and personal, were opposed to the melding of religious and governmental influences.

[whistler162]

15. again please provide a link to the exact quote!

[bertman]

20. Sorry, it got lost among the 1084 other posts about Dr. Benjamin.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/the-doctor-is-finally-in-obama-to-name-regina-benjamin-for-surgeon-general.html

paragraph five.

[whistler162]

33. Actually this is the better sourcing -

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_31.html

Under the subsection Inspiration -

"I believe it was divine intervention — it was in medical school when I realized there was nothing else I'd rather do with my life than to be a doctor. I had never seen a black doctor before I went to college, so I did not have an idea that I wanted to be one. I never thought I that I couldn't, but I never really thought about it at all. In college we had a very strong pre-med program and I joined a pre-med club and from there did well on interviews, and the MCAT, and I got accepted to medical school."

You have a problem with this?

[rvablue]

29. Your 2nd paragraph is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to your distaste with this appointment.

Have you read up on the good doctor.

Your second paragraph pretty much describes the selfless good work this doctor has dedicated her life to.

Read this and tell me how on earth you could have a problem with her?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/surgeon-general-nominee-was-world-news-tonights-person-of-the-week-in-1995.html

And to follow your argument through to completion would mean only atheists would be qualified for public service.

[bertman]

39. I know lots of good, church-going people who do good works. I respect them greatly

for that. But that doesn't mean that I want my government to be filled with people who are religious people.

Christians do not have a corner on generosity of spirit, compassion for others, and doing good works for others. I know many non-believers who do good works for others but who do not proselytize for atheism or agnosticism or any other form of non-believing.

Dr. Benjamin sounds like a compassionate person who will be a good Surgeon General. But I ask the question, why does it have to be a woman steeped in christian tradition to the point that she attributes her decision to go to medical school to be "divine intervention".

Our government will run just fine without having overtly christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, daoist, atheist, agnostic or other folks at the helm.

it's the people who wear their religion on their sleeves that bother me. Usually because they just can't accept the fact that I don't want to be one of them and don't accept their view of the world as being run by supernatural forces.

[incapsulated]

41. Who said she "had to be" religious?

Was his first choice, Gupta, overtly religious?

Is she, even, other than making a very vague statement not even concerned with religion? Saying you felt like something was "divine intervention" is hardly some crazy, "wearing it on your sleeve", proselytizing thing, it was just how she felt about going to medical school. People use terms like that all the time.

Do you know the number of people in his admin who are religious or not? Is there a scorecard?

[Perky]

60. Nor do securalist have a lock on civic virtue or public administration

What I sense you are objecting to is the overtness of people faith rather than the existence of their faith. I don't have a problem with that except when the person being criticized was not in any sense raising it as some sort of political badge or laying down some sort of marker.

That same faith may inform vies on abortion and issues of importance to the Gay community, but it could just as easily inform views on Stem Cell Research, funding for wasrs, the Death Penalty, condom, second hand smoking, binge drinking and Aids Presentation and funding. You simply have no way of knowing any of this until you look at her whole body of work and you hear her testimony.

But to disqualify her because she professes a belief in God's hand on her life is obscenely arrogant

I would submit to you that the anger and open hostility and ridicule in some quarters of DU to anyone professing a faith should certainly disqualify those holding such disdain from ever holding public office. Not for what they personally believe but got the contempt they show to others who believe differently than they do.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want to, they are not entitled to arrogantly mock the beliefs of others and then claim persecution when others criticize their bigotry.

[vaberella]

16. Because she's religious she has no right to the position of Surgeon General title.

Ugh. Pure disgust and disdain for the posters claim.

[uponit7771]

18. Christians aren't your enemy, there's nothing wrong with being one...

[bertman]

23. I have lived among them all of my 60-plus years. Some are wonderful people. Some

are not.

it's the ones who think it's their mission to save the world for jesus that I don't like. They're rude and obnoxious and think that they can question someone else's basic beliefs with impunity. They also think that because they are "saved" they can do or say whatever they want, then ask forgiveness, and everything is cool. Their actions rarely jive with the message of the gospels that I was raised in.

Believe me, I have enough of the missionary types in my family to last several lifetimes. Fortunately I've been able to get away from them and their religious-zealotry-induced propagandizing for the most part. However, I know a few of them who are still hardcore and who believe in christian dominion over ALL PEOPLE. From recent revelations, it seems that there are quite a few of those types in high places in Washington, D.C.

I do not want people who feel it's their duty to "spread the word" making decisions about me or for me.

[Fire1]

34. You just broad brushed millions of christians and

nothing could be further from the truth. Your family is not indicative of Dr. Benjamen nor millions of other christians.

[bertman]

44. It's not the millions of christians who aren't trying to subvert democracy that I'm worried

about. It's the small, dedicated groups who DO want to make America a dominionist-ruled society that I worry about.

The revelations of the last few weeks regarding the power these folks have and how they wield it is very scary. I hope that all of those other millions of christians are planning on doing something about the zealots who are working in secret. Unfortunately, I think many of them view this as some kind of imagined problem.

[AspenRose]

19. Proof that RABID knee-jerk people of faith aren't the only ones who can be bigots.

RABID knee-jerk people of no faith can be just as bad....

Quick. Round up all the Christians! :crazy:

[bertman]

22. Apparently you can't read, AspenRose. See post #13.

[AspenRose]

28. Oh, my comprehension is just fine, thank you for your concern.

"This is not a benign or accidental accumulation of power. We see new evidence every day that people whose agendas are christian domination of government are gaining more and more power. And they are doing it with the intent of making our American government a christian government."

Nah, that doesn't sound like "round up the Christians." :eyes: Basically you just admitted you don't have a problem with all Christians, just some of them. That's fine, but to support barring Christians from government service because you have a problem with SOME of them is a bigoted position to hold.

You have a problem with Jimmy Carter, too? Martin Luther King? Al Gore? Hillary Clinton?

There is nothing wrong with being a Christian serving in government, as long as your private beliefs do not influence public policy. Some of us (like Barry Lynn of Americans United) are actually on your side if you'd quit jerking your knee long enough.

[bertman]

42. You're exactly right, it DOES NOT sound like "round up the christians."

I never said that and I never insinuated that. It's a construct of your anger at me for challenging your ideas. Your interpretation of what I wrote is very weird. But, believe me, I'm used to it because so many christians think that they are entitled to say anything they want about anyone who doesn't hew to their dogma. Over the years, I have found that many christians TALK a good game regarding religious freedom and freedom from religion, but when the rubber hits the road they cannot tolerate anyone saying anything they view as anti-christian or "against their beliefs", so they demonize them by using crap they pull out of the air like you accusing me of saying round up the christians.

If you don't share my concern about the dominionist christians in our government, then you are blind to one of the biggest threats to all of our liberties. These people are theocrats who are anti-democracy. They think they are the chosen leaders, while the rest of us should follow. By ignoring that threat you imperil all of us who believe in a government that is free from interference by religious leaders.

I don't understand how you can reconcile your angry rant with your last paragraph. The accumulated power of those who want to rule our government as a religious country is precisely what I am objecting to. They ARE allowing their private beliefs to influence our public policy.

[incapsulated]

43. Are all Christians "dominionist christians"?

Because, honestly, that seems to be what you are saying.

The woman uses one phrase and suddenly she is part of a cabal.

[bertman]

45. No, they are not. It's the dominionists who are the danger, as we are finding out with

the revelations about Sanford, Ensign, Coburn and others who are part of the group known as "The Family".

What has raised the red flag for me, is the number of appointments to high-level positions in the Obama Administration and government overall, of folks who have been involved in what I would call christian activism for specific policies that affect all of us. That mindset, coupled with leaders who have gotten away from the concept of separation of state and church, is what bothers me.

I do not want people with a religious agenda, be they christian, jew, muslim or any other sect, using their government positions to make laws based on their religious leanings.

President Obama seems to be going out of his way to appoint these folks who wear their religion on their sleeve. I don't know if it's part of his belief in his christian faith, or if it's pressure from political factions, but I don't like it.

[incapsulated]

46. And you consider this woman to be one of these people or dangerous

Based on her saying she felt like her decision to stay in medical school was divine intervention?

If she said it was a miracle she wasn't hit by a car would that also set off red flags?

Do you see that there isn't much to this at all, other than paranoia at this point?

Obama has said booklegnths more about religion than this, is he part of a christian conspiracy?

I mean, shit, he isn't even DLC.

[bertman]

47. No. It was the proverbial straw.

[Vidar]

24. Unfortunately, religion is a selling point in politics. This is to be expected.

[hileeopnyn8d]

27. She didn't actually say God

Sometimes "divine intervention" is just a figure of speech.



If an atheist were to accidently use the word miracle, would that also suddenly make them "another frickin' God-in-my-life christian?"

[incapsulated]

30. Oh, for fucks sake, she sounds like a wonderful person

Sucks to be so bigoted that any reference to faith makes all your hate kick in, while she dedicated her life to serving the neediest of communities.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/13/surgeon.general/

[Autumn]

36. I have no problem with that, I bought a

lottery ticket and I won five bucks,I rarely buy them I just got a sudden urge which I attributed to "divine intervention". :shrug:

[incapsulated]

37. Why are you trying to oppress and destroy America?

:D

[Autumn]

38. I feel devinely inspired

to oppress and destroy.:evilgrin: Gonna use my five dollar winner to do it too.

[Vinca]

48. As long as she's on board with a public option (at the very least),

I don't care who or what she worships.

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. It shouldn't be a surprise, considering who picked her

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

50. What a "LOL" post. Her making that remark has nothing to do with separation of church and state.

Also, you complain about the "club" of Christians in government, is that like the all powerful cadre of African American women running things in the U.S.? :rofl:

So if the SG nominee was a white man who was a Wiccan or atheist, that wouldn't be a continuation of a different "club"?

Please. :eyes:

[ipaint]

55. An openly wiccan or atheist

whatever their sex would never be appointed to any high public position in our primarily "christian nation". I do think a vocal atheist as head of faith based initiatives would be ideal, seems fair.

I think Dr. Benjamin is a great choice but I did feel that same sigh as the op wishing the beliefs of these appointees would represent more the diversity of beliefs and non belief in this country.

[Solomon]

52. The Wisdom of Solomon

When in a hole, quit digging.

[Aragorn]

53. MD?

It is still sad that so many doctors believe in any god.

[bigwillq]

54. Yeah, that's a little much.

I guess hard work and intelligence means nothing. I haven't read the full story about this "quote", so that is all I will say for now.

[tranche]

59. We should have christians wear crosses on their sleeves.

Then we'd have a better count. We can better decide if this one is one too many.

[Moochy]

63. One level of indirection from Nazis means

you still lose on the internets. Godwin's Law is transitive.

[MadBadger]

61. This isnt a Separation of Church and State Post, its an Anti-Religion post

[Boomerang Diddle]

62. Separation of church and state doesn't mean people can't hold religious views

As long as they don't mix their religious views with their official duties, then what's the fuss?

I mean, shes a medical doctor after all, not a faith healer.

[burning rain]

64. What a fatuous statement.

[SeattleGirl]

65. I don't see anything wrong with that. It doesn't mean she's going

to speak in tongues when she faces confirmation.

I think it just means that the tumblers fell into place, and the door was opened for her to become an MD.

When I started college, I hardly had a penny to my name, and didn't even have a job. But I just knew it was the thing to do. I ended up getting a job at the college I attended (a regular job, not work study), and for my last two years, I got a full ride scholarship.

Can't explain why I knew that registering for college was the absolute right thing for me, but it was. I could call it luck, I could call it serendipity, I could call it divine intervention. Doesn't matter; it was the right thing to do and it worked out better than I even thought it would.

[CAG]

66. Yeah, just like that pushy Ghandi dude, and whats up with MLKJr always

throwin' GOD in our face. Sheeesh

[Odin2005]

68. This atheist thinks this thread is BS

[MadMaddie]

69. If we look at her deeds and actions it is obvious that she is

a professional who happens to be religious. She would exemplify the type of Christian who practices what she believes and that is to give medical care to those that couldn't afford medical care.

What if she wouldn't have rebuilt her clinic in LA how many people would have died from simple and treatable malady's. Divine Intervention? Could be...

I have no issue with this, she is the most qualified nominee this position has ever had.

Good Choice!
:thumbsup:

[burning rain]

70. What a fatuous statement.

Presumably also God intervenes to make others, say, cooks at McDonald's or porn stars. She sounds like a good doctor and humanitarian, though, so if she can keep the religion her private business and be an advocate for modern, secular medicine, as a government actor should, fine by me.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

72. God bless Monty Python and 'burning rain' for...

'calling' this brilliant skit to mind.

Pupils: All things dull and ugly, all creatures short and squat. All things rude and nasty, the Lord God made the lot. Each little snake that poisons, each little wasp that stings. He made their brutish venom, he made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small. All things foul and dangerous, the Lord God made them all. Each nasty little hornet, each beastly little squid. Who made the spiny urchin? Who made the sharks? He did! All things scabbed and ulcerous, all pox both great and small. Putrid foul and gangrenous, the Lord God made them all. Amen.

[whistler162]

73. I don't know about the good doctor but to me

divine intervention can be as simple as, and this is just my take, what Robert Frost said in his poem "The Road Not Taken.".

[FrenchieCat]

71. You're kidding, right?

If it were left up to you, Christians could no longer serve in government?
Isn't that discriminatory and hypocritical on your part? :shrug:

[LWolf]

74. It's revealing how many have

unrecommended a post calling for the separation of church and state. For what purpose?

For the record, I agree with you; I'd love to see a lot more of it.

[incapsulated]

78. If using the term "divine intervention" about a personal experience is a breach

Of Church and state, most elected officials should be impeached starting with Obama.

Learn the difference between a personal statement and a government policy and get back to me.

[LWolf]

79. I don't need to "learn" it; I'll just define it for you:

A personal statement is one you make privately to your friends and family.

A public statement is one you make to the public.

Got it?

[incapsulated]

80. I'm afraid you don't

See: Freedom of Speech

Got it?

[incapsulated]

81. In fact, I can only imagine how heads would explode if an athiest nominee...

Said something about it and was nailed up like this, accused of being part of some atheist cabal.

Separation of Church and State does not apply to speaking about your personal beliefs or lack thereof.

The fact that I have to post this is rather mind boggling.

[LWolf]

82. What, exactly, is your point?

Yes, we have freedom of speech.

Yes, there is a rapidly disappearing separation of church and state.

Public and private figures alike can say most things. There are a few legal limits on free speech, and other cultural limits.

While it is certainly LEGAL to express religious opinions publicly, it is in poor taste in a civil culture. This particular cultural value is also disappearing, of course.

It is also, imo, unethical from a moral standpoint to use your public position to express religious views. It violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the separation clause.

Freedom of speech should allow me to express all of my religious and political views in my classroom to my students.

I don't. It would be unprofessional, and unethical.

[quantass]

76. "Thank god" i'm an Atheist!

I'm an atheist and have been caught saying "thank god" from time to time. this doesnt mean i believe in some divine creator. Although she may be religious her use of "divine intervention" doesnt necessarily mean she takes it literally. I know i have used such words before and i certainly am not religious. It's just a figure of speech to describe to overwhelming moment she must be feeling. But then again...a majority in America mistakenly believe we were magically created :crazy: