A. McEwan responds to LZ Granderson: "No pride in comparing forms of (black, gay) oppression "

[ruggerson]

Alvin McEwen is 38-year-old single African-American gay man who resides in Columbia, SC. He is a graduate of A.C. Flora High School and Winthrop University. McEwen is a 1988 attendee of the SC Governor's School for the Arts and the author of Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters: Exposing the Lies of the Anti-Gay Industry. He is also a board member of the SC Pride Movement and SC Black Pride as well as a co-founder of Palmetto Umoja.



"This nonsense about "Is Black The New Gay," just reached another plateau of bullcrap today.

L.Z. Granderson, an award winning columnist and a gay man of color has written a piece that, while I agree with in some parts, is indicative of the division mentality that I find so mind-boggling."

<snip>

"He does have a point about how the visibility of lgbts of color is minimized in gay community at large and the madness of some lgbts after the Proposition 8 vote.

But in all honesty, he splits hairs in an ugly fashion with that comment about the "n-word" and "f-word." I mean it's like saying if a gay black man is attacked by both a racist and a homophobe carrying baseball bats, he is going to run away from the racist quicker than he would from the homophobe. And that point about the "hypocrisy of publicly rallying in the name of unity but then privately living in segregated pockets" is also a good one to make.

But the hypocrisy of talking about unity but ignoring a segment of your population because of religious beliefs and ridiculous ideas of masculinity and femininity is an equally good point.

For me, the part that stuck out in Mr. Granderson's piece in a bad way is the following:"

The 40th anniversary of Stonewall dominated Gay Pride celebrations around the country, and while that is certainly a significant moment that should be recognized, 40 years is nothing compared with the 400 blood-soaked years black people have been through in this country. There are stories some blacks lived through, stories others were told by their parents and stories that never had a chance to be told.

"He would have a point except for one thing; as I understand it, some of those gays at Stonewall were black. That's yet another thing about lgbts of color you don't hear about during Black History Month.

The fact that he didn't mention the inclusion of black gays in Stonewall but rather contrasted it to black history (wouldn't Stonewall be considered a part, albeit a small part, of black history) emphasizes the basic emptiness of his piece.

Why is it so hard for folks to say that gay rights are African-American rights because lgbts of color are touched by both communities? Why is it so hard for folks to say that there are times in which the black and gay struggles intersect?

That is why I am so damned weary of this argument about "is gay the new black" or "can gay rights movement compare itself to the civil rights movement."

For one thing, the argument is so self-defeating.

You generally don't end up with an intelligent discussion. What you end up with are folks who compare abuses like they are marks of honors. Getting your head busted open for being black or gay is not a trophy and should never be seen as such.

So blacks say that gays can't compare their struggle to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s because they didn't face slavery and segregation. Big deal. If you wanted to be stupid about it, some can say blacks can't compare themselves to Jews. Remember this country kept blacks as slaves, but the Nazis tried to exterminate Jewish people.

I say we are losing touch. In the long run, the forms that oppression take is not as important as the harm it can do.

Or, if you want to be direct about it, did Mamie Till and Judy Shepard cry different tears when they learned about the death of their children?

Is the hurt of a black girl who has been told that she is ugly because she does fit the European standard of beauty any different than that of a young white lesbian who has been bullied in her school because of her orientation?

Is my worth as a black man more important than my worth as a gay man?

Are we so damned wrapped up in talking about how we have been oppressed that we forget that all oppression must be stopped?

It's sad that Mr. Granderson did not ask these critical questions.

Yet another wasted opportunity."

FULL STORY

More from A. McEwan and other GLBT people of color on their thoughts about the traditional black church:

MORE FROM A. MCEWAN

[boppers]

1. No pride in comparing oppression.

I can't possibly K&R this enough.

[noiretextatique]

2. i don't think people object to comparison of struggles

because it's all about civil rights. i think people object to the hyperbole, e.g., "gay is the new black." that is what pisses some people off. that's what i got from the granderson article.

[ruggerson]

7. In the second link, McEwan says some provocative things about the traditional black church

(by which I assume he and others mean "evangelical" primarily).

I remember reading similar things from you, so you might find it an interesting read.

[noiretextatique]

9. it's an open secret that there are many gay men in black churches

they are sometimes on the pulpit, and definitely in the band and choir.
my parents were not especially religious, and neither am it. but, i joined black church that has two female pastors and a gay pride celebration. i hope more african-americans abandon the churches preaching anti-gay bigotry. but...too many do not, just as with the southern baptist church. i was not indoctrinated with any particular religious philosophy, but religion is very important to many black people. i believe the clinging to religion is based on this historical fact: the church used to be only place to escape the racism of the larger society. that and perhaps people's lives were pretty miserable outside the family and the church. personally...i don't get it. i don't understand gay people who suffer through anti-gay bigotry every sunday morning when there are other options. i don't understand black gays who do that or white ones.

[ruggerson]

10. I imagine it's because they feel at home there

It's comforting and familiar. Even though they may get bullied and even humiliated at times, the thought of leaving is too terrifying for many people - they would feel disconnected. We've all had the experience of staying too long in a relationship that isn't working. I think many gay people (black AND white) stay in churches where they are abused for the simple reason that no one is helping them understand that THEY are not the ones that are fucked up - the church is.

[noiretextatique]

11. i know you are right

i had a friend who was the youth director at a "fire and brimstone" church. she was terrified that someone from the church would find out she was a lesbian...so terrified that she would not go out to gay clubs. how silly...right? i told her: if someone sees you at the club, that means s/he's probably gay too :crazy: anyway...i took her to my church several years ago, and she is now a lay minister :woohoo:

[ruggerson]

12. that's terrific

that's quite often how the most important changes occur. One on one. I just read a poll which showed that if someone had a gay family member or close friend, one was far more inclined to support marriage equality. Sounds obvious, right? But I think we can extrapolate and say the concept holds true for gay people trapped in evangelical families or churches. When and if they KNOW someone who can point out that there is a way out - that the disease is fundamentalism, not homosexuality, then they stand a far better chance of escaping than if they have to make the journey alone and isolated.

[AntiFascist]

3. How many Blacks were victims of the Holocaust?

I mean, if we're comparing numbers.

[noiretextatique]

4. the american holocaust...probably at least 10 million

counting the africans who died during the middle passage, and the africans (and their ancestors) who were murdered here.

[boppers]

8. How are you defining "black"?

17-19 million died in The Holocaust at the hands of people who thought "race" mattered.

[AntiFascist]

13. The point is...

17-19 million died at the hands of people who thought ANYTHING INFERIOR to the master race mattered, including sexual orientation. It wasn't just about race, and trying to define it that way does the gay community a great disservice.

[boppers]

14. Fair enough.

JW's were slaughtered for personal belief, and getting back to the OP, while there is good in realizing who our allies are, there's also bad in equivocation, and the refusal to recognize similarities.

[dsc]

18. Funny how you still leave off gays

[QC]

19. Rich, effeminate, urban white men with lisps weren't in the Holocaust, silly!

:sarcasm:

That really is how a lot of our alleged "allies" here seem to view us, you know.

[boppers]

20. Funny how you left off Slavs?

"You forgot Poland?".... Really?

What about the Roma? The Disabled? The politicals?

I used the JW because they were killed for nothing more than a belief.

If you are of the disposition that being gay is a mere belief, you're posting to the wrong site.

[dsc]

21. I didn't make the list

you did. It should be noted that you post this in reply to someone bring up the idea gays died in the Holocost. You are the one who appeared to believe being gay is a belief.

[boppers]

22. I didn't "omit" anybody, it's a huge list.

Attacking me by claiming I omitted somebody was pretty obvious, and barely worthy of response.

Anyways, here's a more complete list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

"the idea gays died in the Holocaust" smacks of revisionism, and/or baiting, I suggest you read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gays_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust

..to get a better understanding of the topic at hand.


edit: DU syntax broke square-bracketed quoting.

[dsc]

25. You make a list leaving off gays and I am the bigot wow

by the way ideas can be true as well as false, you do know that, don't you? 2 + 2 = 4 is an idea, the fact it is true doesn't make it less of an idea.

[boppers]

26. A chronology:

#3: Blacks in the Holocaust
#8: Noting that "race" was considered a factor
#13: Multiple factors noted
#14: Agreement with multiple factors, noting a totally non-genetic (JW) group
#18: You attack me for leaving out gays
#20: I point out that there's a bigger list, and give more examples of even more groups
#21: You're still insisting that I've made a list, and omitted a group

It's interesting to note that neither I, nor anybody else, have mentioned Jews being part of the Holocaust at this point. And yet, there have been no claims that somebody is "omitting" them, or insinuations of such an agenda. Quite curious.

#22: I post an actual link to a pretty comprehensive list
#25: You claim that I'm omitting gays from a list I never made

Nice. Regardless, I hope to see your work on the topic, be it scholarly or wikipedia or whatever. For my own part, I've been working for four years on maintaining compromise language, sources, and references to make sure all voices are heard on the topic in wikipedia articles, because there *ARE* scholars who do not consider gay non-jews to be part of the holocaust, and vice versa. Personally, I tend towards the inclusionist perspective, not the 6 million perspective.

[Starry Messenger]

5. I was hoping someone would post this.

I saw this at PHB and I've been reading his other work. :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

6. Wonderful post.

[Uzybone]

15. One thing I agree with, the entire argument is self defeating

either side it comes from. It doesn't help us.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Mr McEwan is a wonderful writer

thanks for sharing.

[QC]

17. KICK!

:kick:

[Veruca Salt]

23. kick!

[Colobo]

24. McEwan is a very intelligent individual. Nice commentary.