Will Mother's Baptism Come Up At Obama's Mormon Meeting?

[ensho]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/20/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5174534.shtml


-snip-

ut there is a bit of family history that might be glossed over at the meeting: The posthumous baptism of the president's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, into the Mormon faith.

Dunham died of cancer in 1995. Blogger John Aravosis, using the LDS Web site FamilySearch.org, discovered records earlier this year indicating that someone had baptized Dunham into the church on June 4th of last year, the day after Mr. Obama secured the Democratic presidential nomination.

The church later confirmed that the baptism had taken place, but said that it had been improper; LDS spokeswoman Kim Farah emailed a statement to news organizations saying that baptizing the dead "is a sacred practice to us" but that "it is counter to Church policy for a Church member to submit names for baptism for persons to whom they are not related."

"The Church is looking into the circumstances of how this happened and does not yet have all the facts," she added. "However, this is a serious matter and we are treating it as such." The White House declined to comment on the issue at the time.

-snip-
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they are so nuts

[BlueIdaho]

1. Fucking Nutbags

This is not a church - its a cult. A very big, very rich cult.

[S_E_Fudd]

2. You ask me almost all organized religion is a cult...

Some are more accepted than others!!

[Cha]

6. You ask me..I'd

say the same..all the dogma, hypocricy, wars, etc,..what's not to love.

But, to each his own..just don't be messin' with my country.

[dragonlady]

3. They have done this to well-known Jews and were called on it

Anne Frank and Albert Einstein, for example. They promised to stop, but it happened again. This is a big deal to the Jewish community, especially to those who have lost loved ones in the Holocaust. One problem is that they feel it is okay to do it to family members, and given the fast growth of their numbers and their emphasis on genealogy, most of the world could be considered family to one Mormon or another. For example, the Dunham family was in America quite early in the colonial period, so they have intermarried and produced children over many generations. I wouldn't be surprised if literally millions of people are related to Ann Dunham (I'm an eighth cousin once removed).

[IntravenousDemilo]

4. US government policy regarding Mormons was so much more worthy and enlightened in the 1830s. n/m

[SidneyCarton]

7. As German policy toward Jehovah's Witnesses was much more worthy and enlightened in the 1930's?

I give you points for snark, but please don't ever run for office, I'd hate to think that the First Amendment is to be selectively applied depending on whether or not you approve of the beliefs of a certain group.

[IntravenousDemilo]

9. Nah, I can't defend Nazis in any circumstances.

No matter how much I like trains to arrive on schedule, and no matter how strong my personal grudge against the Jehovah's Witnesses may be (and it is pretty strong), the Nazis were still irredeemably evil creeps who committed crimes of indefensible enormity, and everything they did was automatically bad, even persecuting the JayDubs.

Now, SOVIET policy towards religion in general -- that was enlightened.

I don't plan on running for office in your country any time soon. You have quite enough to worry about already.

And thanks for the snark points. :)

[SidneyCarton]

10. No problem, I had some extra lying around, I figured I'd give them to you.

[IntravenousDemilo]

14. Well, they're always appreciated, you know that. n/m

[grantcart]

11. As much as I abhor the JW I have to point out that they have never been involved

in mass murder while the Mormons have

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow_Mountain_Massacre

[SidneyCarton]

12. Yes, nearly 150 years ago.

I don't see concentration camps outside of Provo reducing Gentiles to soap do you?

[grantcart]

13. the sub thread had to do with government policies in the 1830's

I don't see the government singling out the Mormon church now - do you?

[SidneyCarton]

15. No, and the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened in the 1850's.

20 years after the policies of the 1830-40's drove the Mormons out of the east. Get forcibly removed from four or five states in succession, exiled to the sphincter of North America, burying loved ones on the way and then tell me if you wouldn't be paranoid and a little violent?

Bring up Mountain Meadows is always interesting, a true black mark on the faith, I heartily agree, but to see the way it's cited on DU, one would assume it was the beginning of a proud tradition of massacring travelers through Utah. I know you don't mean it as such (and you have a far more personal history with this tragedy than I do) but to hear the way it is bandied about here, one would assume that travelers on I-15 are regularly wrenched from their cars around Cedar City or Draper and slaughtered. Yet anti-Mormon persecution in the US predates Mountain Meadows, in some ways it was responsible for it.

[grantcart]

16. My great great great grandfather was one of the instigators of the MMM

He was the firebrand preacher who lit up the antagonisms the year before with the so called Mormon Reformation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedediah_M._Grant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Reformation


MMM is simply the most well known of the Mormon murders.


The states did not forcebly remove the mormons from anywhere. This is one of the great lies of Mormonism. They were forced to leave because they were apart of a full blown criminial consipiracy and the enforcement of laws engangered their freedom.


For example the death of Smith is seen as a mob that picked him out for no reason.


Joseph Smith led an attack on the newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor. It was a newspaper that in its first edition was going to expose the lies and crimes of Joseph Smith.

Who were the editors and owners of this newspaper? anti mormon bigots? no. Joseph Smith's longest and most trusted associate William Law. As they say "no man or set of man are more acquainted with its rise". They even preached the that the book of Mormon was true, but that Smith is " a wolf in sheeps' clothing"

What is it that they allege? That Smith coerced young foreign born woman who were new recruits to have sex and that some of them were so traumatized by it that they went into depression and died. Young orphans have been forced into early marriages.

The paper's criticism of Smith was focused on three main points: (1) the opinion that Smith had once been a true prophet, but had become a fallen prophet because of his introduction of plural marriage, exaltation and other controversial doctrines; (2) the opinion that as church president and Nauvoo mayor, Smith held too much power and desired to create a theocracy (see also Council of Fifty, Theodemocracy); and (3) the belief that Smith was corrupting young women by forcing, coercing or introducing them to the practice of plural marriage.

Law was head of the First Presidency, the top mormon who witnessed Smiths criminal conspiracies.


Smith used his influence to have the town order the destruction of the newspaper. Angry mobs then reacted to this dictatorial use to further Smith's criminal acts and sought to bring him to justice. Smith had escaped but in his tremendous arrogance and hubris returned and was then captured and came under mob justice, most unfortunately because a trial would have established a record of his crimes and he would have died completely exposed for the con man that he was.

As for the settlers who travelling to California who may have had hard feelings for the Mormons many of them had lost their life savings in Joseph Smith's Ponzi scheme Kirtland Safety Society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society

Even though they were repeatedly denied a bank charter they established this limited liability company and then issued stocks that had the words "Kirtland Safety Society anti-Bank-ing Company" except that "anti" and "ing" were in tiny print making it seem that they were bank stocks.

A small effort? Hardly - the capitalization of this fraudulent bank was equal to nearly 50% of the capitalization of all of the banks in the State of Ohio.



Smith was the head of a large criminal conspiracy. That conspiracy was involved in political, economic and sexual crimes, not unlike those that have resulted in the imprisonment of the Fundie Mormon Church last year.

Smith's main accusers were not from the outside world, but those that were in the most trusted senior positions of the mormon church. Contemporary Mormons who talk of Religious persecution are knowing liars, because the key points of mormon history, including the role of Law and others is taught in Mormon history classes. Mormons know that they have been involved in crimes from the beginings and that the main reasons for them leaving IL and Ohio was because of breakaway groups of senior mormons tried to pressure civilian authorities to hold Smith accountable for his crimes.

[madamesilverspurs]

18. Fascinating.

Not exactly the story we were given when we relocated to SLC in the late 1960s. One of the more interesting personages of that history, to my thinking anyway, is Sidney Rigdon; but there seems to be some reluctance to discuss him, at least there's a lack of the glowing admiration that generally accompanies discussions about Young, even though Rigdon seems to have been present in the formative stages. Do you have any insight on that?

[grantcart]

24. Just from what I have read

Some people think that he was the real author of the Book of Mormon.

He and Law traded back and forth being the heir apparent.


Rigdon is probably being rediscovered and favorably reappraised because he was strongly against plural marriages.

[SidneyCarton]

20. Very nice GC you hit all the Anti-Mormon talking points.

Frankly, I like you too much to argue about this, if you think I am a liar be my guest, such is life.

[grantcart]

22. glad we are on good terms

I haven't seen any facts you put forth that you think I disagree with.


The facts I put forth are well established



My father's uncle was the second longest serving Mormon President and like most families who get educated on what really happen and become 'apostate Mormons' we are deep ribed Mormon haters, but it is a bigotry that we feel that we have earned.

Now on my Grandmother's side she was on one of the last push cart 'wagon trains' that Brigham Young interferred with by changing the design of the push cart to save a few pennies and delaying the start.

They left in August instead of June and got caught in a snow storm before they reached SLC and wiped out half of the train and half of the family. So we think we see Mormon history pretty clearly, and we don't really care who it upsets, what happened really happened.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. No now the LDS just organizes against its neighbors with

money and law. Attacking the basic human rights of their fellow Americans and a goodly number of their own kids, in a public display of hypocrisy and contempt for our common community. To me, it seems very much in the tradition of the Massacre, holding those 'gentiles' as worthy of the judgment of 'the Saints'. It is a traditional sort of thing, not getting along with the neighbors, and acting out on that.

[SidneyCarton]

21. Blue! How is my favorite misanthrope?

So, do you stalk my Mormon posts, or is it just happy coincidence that you're always here to expose me as the deluded intolerant bigot I so clearly am?

Awww, I wuvs my little rubber-ducky-man stalker... :P

BTW: you never answered my question from the last thread, How is your position that the budget crisis in CA is our punishment for Prop 8 any different from the fundies claiming New Orleans' destruction by Katrina was a punishment for their sins? Come on, you know you want to answer? Don't ya, don't ya?

[mitchum]

8. +1 (in support of early attempts at Federal consumer protection)

[BlueIdaho]

5. Yeah

And millions of "brothers" and "sisters" make pilgrimages to their temples to participate in these ceremonies - its kinda a Mormon Disneyland so... they have to have LOTS and LOTS of names so everyone gets to play.

[marshall]

19. The paperwork for her baptism was submitted by a Dunham cousin

That falls within the current guidelines of the church. Obama can ask the man at the next family reunion.

[boppers]

23. So this is really anti-mormon hay-making?

Color me not shocked.

[marshall]

25. I quite easily looked up the identity of the submitter

And it was easy to look at the family tree and determine the relationship between this man and Obama's mother. If I recall correctly the man lives in Arizona.

[boppers]

26. So, the press release was wrong?

...or was he too "distant" to be allowed, or what?

[marshall]

27. Yes, the press misinterpreted Farah's statement

Which can be found here in the Church owned newspaper:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705301616/LDS-Church-reiterates-proxy-baptism-policy.html

Note that Farah defines what would be improper, but never says this instance is improper. Farah merely says it is being investigated.

One only needs a membership ID number to login and get the added information that I got, which includes the name and address of the submitter. From that point it is quite easy to branch out and determine the kinship.