My Take On The Gates Incident (Which Will Get Me Castigated By Both Sides)

[WeDidIt]

I've witnessed this sort of incident before involving a guy using a coat hanger to get into his own car.

What I saw was a citizen being pissed off because they felt their rights were being violated and a cop getting pissed off because they felt the citizen was being disrespctful of the cop.

Wanna know what I thought at the time?

"Both of these people are being idiots right here right now and I'm the person who's going to be called into a court to testify that both the cop and the citizen were fucking assholes."

Fortunately for me, charges were dropped and no civil case was filed, so I never had to testify that I saw a citizen being a jerk and a cop being a jerk simultaneously.

My take is, both Gates and the cop were jerks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. The cop is a public servant

He doesn't get to be a jerk.

[WeDidIt]

2. When a cop approaches you to ask for ID and quesiton you, failure to comply is a crime

so you don't have a right to be a jerk to a cop doing their job.

It goes both ways.

[countingbluecars]

3. Gates complied,

and even if he said a few choice words to the cop, big deal. Why was he arrested?

[WeDidIt]

4. Like I said, they were both jerks

That's how these situations develop.

Both sides fuck up.

I'm not cutting either side any slack.

[CBGLuthier]

9. well good for you

now that you are in charge of the slack I expect the world to run a hellofalot smoother.

[WeDidIt]

11. Damned straight I'm in charge of slack

when it comes to my own opinion.

[Raineyb]

65. Being a jerk is not an arrestable offense

No matter what the power mad cops tell you.

[quiller4]

105. It isn't illegal to be a jerk.

[Cha]

113. So why were the charges

dropped?

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. He did comply

Gates was arrested IN HIS OWN HOUSE AFTER HE PROVED HE LIVED THERE.

Cop should have said "Have a nice day, Sir" and left.

[WeDidIt]

8. Absolutely he should have

That was the cop being a jerk, most likely in reaction to Gates being a jerk.

[Raineyb]

66. If the cop doesn't have the skills to deescalate a situation then he needs a new job.

I don't care how big a jerk anyone was being if the cop was a professional he'd not allow that to color his thinking. Thanks for excusing unprofessional behavior. We need so much more of that.

[unapatriciated]

120. exactly.

I deal with jerks every day at work. If I react unprofessional, guess what I could lose my job or at the very least have a warning put in my file.

[fishwax]

67. so your assumption is that Gates started it?

[yourguide]

14. Actually I believe that is inacurate

If an officer approaches me on the street and asks for my ID I can ask why but I believe by law I am only legally bound to identify myself, there is no law that requires me to carry an ID.


If your state has a stop and identify statute (MA is one of the states that does), you have to state your name factually. You do NOT have to produce a driver's license.

[WeDidIt]

17. The cop is empowered to incarcerate you on nothing more than suspicion

IF you fail to comply, go to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

You'll get out, but you'll still be fingerprinted, get a mug shot, and probably get a baloney sandwich for dinner.

[yourguide]

20. You need to look at the law

No, the cop is allowed to detain you on suspicion, not arrest you on suspicion. The charges against gates were not failing to provide identification, they were some antiquated version of disorderly conduct.

Nevada is one of 21 states with laws requiring persons stopped by police to identify themselves. The other states are: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont and Wisconsin.

That does not mean they are required to show ID, they are only required by law to correctly identify themselves.

The point is moot, Gates showed ID.

[WeDidIt]

25. They always come up with a charge

You get fingerprinted.

You get a mug shot.

You spend a night in jail.

And more likely than not, the charges will be dropped the next day.

It's a form of punitive action against citizens who cops perceive as being disrespectful, and it happens every day.

[yourguide]

27. Just because they do it doesnt mean

that you legally have to provide ID.

[WeDidIt]

29. That's why the charges get dropped

But that doesn't alter the fact that the cop has just been judge and jury and sentenced you to a night in jail for not providing the requested ID.

The cop is being a jerk and abusing their power, but nothing ever comes from it.

[yourguide]

33. It doesnt change the fact that failure to comply

in showing an ID is not actually a crime in many states including MA.

[WeDidIt]

37. True enough

but that doesn't change the fact that Gates was sentenced to a night in jail, and it happens every day to hundreds of Americans.

[yourguide]

49. Oh I concur...I think it's BS.

But I personally lean on the side of Gates rather than the officer, I know I would feel angry if I was harassed by the cops in my own home.

[okieinpain]

56. yep. i agree. n/t.

[wicket]

38. I believe this is no longer the case in Mass...?

With the passage of question 2 - they are no longer allowed to threaten people with arrest for refusing to show ID, at least for smoking marijuana anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. There is a case

This happened to a friend of mine not long ago. He was walking down the street and a cop pulled over and asked for his ID. My friend's sister is a lawyer so he called her and asked if he had to comply. She said yes, there was a case in Indiana that went all the way to the federal or Supreme Court - can't remember all the details, sorry. Yes you have to show ID.

I searched my email but must have deleted this one. Maybe some attorneys here know this case? I suck at searching laws.

[wicket]

114. There are 24 states with "Stop & Identify" statutues

Massachusetts is not one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. This was a federal case and applies nationwide

Sorry I can't remember more about what this attorney said.

[kath]

82. Thanks for this - we're not YET at the "your papers, please" state where you have to immediately

comply with the stormtroopers - but we're gettin' there.

[polmaven]

128. Numbe one,

this was not just a man being approached "on the street".

Number 2, this was a man who had, by his own admission, just forced his way into this house. He DID have an obligation to prove that he belonged there.

By all accounts, he initially refused to do so.

The police were at the house for a reason. Cambridge police do not have a policy of knocking on doors randomly.

Your analogy is not even close.

[yourguide]

130. The analogy doesnt matter.

The law is the law and there is no law in MA requiring you to produce an ID. There is a law that requires you to correctly identify yourself.

[quiller4]

104. but once you have produced ID the cop has no right to

berate you. You have every right to scream on your own porch. Gates committed no crime and should never have been taken into custody.

[wicket]

115. Not in Massachusetts:

here you are not required to show ID

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

[Uben]

7. And....

...it isn't smart to be a jerk to a police officer, either. I learned a long time ago to be courteous and cooperative with all police officers, no matter if you think you are in the right or not. You are not going to win an argument with a police officer. It's okay to be angry, just learn to do it behind a smile. Your opportunity to argue is when the case goes to court, not when you are being confronted by an officer.

[WeDidIt]

10. Much simpler to do it that way

IF the cop jerks out on you after you've been nice, you'll have your day in court and will most likely win.

[lazer47]

16. "And",,, At what point do you stop going to the back of the bus

just to keep on compling with the cop, and tuck your tail again?? when do you take a stand and believe in it....

[WeDidIt]

18. When it comes to cops, I'm always courteous

even if they try to come into my house, I'm still a nice guy when requesting the warrant.

The number one rule when dealing with cops is, THEY'VE GOT THE GUN!

[lazer47]

24. Are you trying to tell me, you fear the gun, more than losing your

freedom???

[WeDidIt]

31. Let's see?

IF I get shot by an expert with a weapon trained to shoot to kill if they must shoot, I'm dead.

If I comply and then fight it in court I'm alive and have a relatively good chance of having my freedoms upheld?

I'll take door number two, thank you.

[lazer47]

42. Read below,,and learn

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures. It was ratified as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution. The amendment specifically requires search and arrest warrants be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. Search and arrest should be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer, who has sworn by it.

[Uben]

50. I know the law

There is a difference between understanding your rights and being ignorant. That same document gives you the right to argue your case in front of a judge and a jury of your peers, not to an officer. You fail to recognize that at the scene, the officer has the authority, and not all of them are just, or courteous. Be smart.

[lazer47]

55. Tell that little story to ROSA PARKS, or the CHICAGO SEVEN

[WeDidIt]

79. The SCOTUS has defanged that bit of the constitution

while nobody was paying attention (other than us) over the past twenty years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Tell that to our Congress reps who passed the Patriot Act

[Uben]

35. No

Just saying to be smart and not reactive. Letting your temper get the best of you is a recipe for failure.

[Uben]

30. Read what I said....

....you can have your day in court. Arguing with an officer is ignorant...you are not going to win. Arguing your case in court is your venue to state your side of the story. We all know there are asshole cops out there...a lot of them. They are that way because they know you cannot win. If you resist, you go to jail. Be smart.

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. Bullshit. They are that way because people like you don't challenge them.

If enough people challenge the authoritarians they WILL change their habits. The kind of cops that get off on pushing people around HATE the paperwork engendered by their own actions - they just want to FORCE you to comply. Stand up to them. Challenge them. If necessary, MAKE them arrest you and get the charge dismissed and them publicly ridiculed. THAT will change their behavior.

[okieinpain]

59. hey some people don't mind fighting the power. that's cool too in my

book.

[izquierdista]

23. People are people

They get happy, sad, annoyed, irritated, and frustrated all the time. Now this unknown authority figure with a badge walks up and starts making demands. I'm sorry, but immediately being courteous and deferential and obsequious to him is not what people are conditioned to do. The less the police try to understand the situation they have walked into and the more they expect the situation to yield to their authority, the worse the final outcome. They need to be trained on how to handle situations with the least amount of authority, not the most -- that is only typical in a police state.

[Uben]

43. Sounds good, but ....

...arguing with an officer will never end in your favor. If you have the time and money to go to jail, have at it.

[izquierdista]

54. Oh, I know this is a police state

I was expressing my preference that it wasn't.

[Enrique]

92. especially in a citizen's home n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. That's the bottom line

As soon as the cop saw that ID, he should have left.

[quiller4]

107. That is true. n/t

[CBGLuthier]

6. But one of these jerks was empowered and the other not

That is the issue. Abuse of power. Abuse of authority.

As soon as proof was shown that he lived there they should have left. Period.

Both jerks but the arrest was entirely the cops fault.

[WeDidIt]

12. Being a jerk to a cop will get you arrested

IS it abuse of power? Most of the time yes (though some times being enough of a jerk to a cop is a defnite crime and will result in heavy fines and possible jail time). It doesn't alter the fact that being a jerk to a cop will usually result in a night in jail, right or wrong.

[mkultra]

46. getting arrested for contempt of cop well win you a civil suit

That's why the charges where dropped so quickly.

[Solomon]

13. You're right. Off with your nuts.

Sick and tired of racism parsers and deniers.

I'm sick and tired at the attempts at equivalency all the time. One guy even wrote a thread comparing the Gates incident to the shooting of police officers by white radicals. This false equivalency in everything was started by the right wing, and now everybody is fucking doing it.

Gates had a right to say whatever the fuck he wanted to say. The cop didn't have a right to arrest him. There's no equivalency with which to justify this one.

Why don't you guys just stop. I know it hurts when you see white people acting stupid. It burns doesn't it? But you know what, you guys do almost as much damage or worse when you try and equivacate and defend this kind of shit than the original perpetrator.

[WeDidIt]

15. The cop was a jerk for arresting him

Gates was a jerk to the cop.

But the plain and simple fact of the matter is, right or wrong, being a jerk to a cop gets you a night in jail.

I learned long ago probably the most important fact when dealing with cops. THEY'VE GOT THE GUN! Keeping that in mind and a little simple courtesy will go a long way even when the cops are total jerks.

[countingbluecars]

19. Do you really believe

that if Gates had been white and had acted in exactly the same manner, that he would have been arrested?

[WeDidIt]

22. Probably

Yes, I believe he probably would have been arrested.

It wouldn't have been publicized and he might have even had to pay a fine over it, though. The publicity forced the cops to drop the charges, but similar cases involving white cops and white civilians happen all the time and the courts generally rule in favor of the cops because the courts are dependent upon the cops and will almost always give the cops the benefit of the doubt.

People are jerks all over and no matter what their race.

My example above involved a white male citizen and a white female cop. Citizen was arrested. Both were jerks. The guy is lucky the charges were dropped.

[countingbluecars]

26. So a white man in an upscale

neighborhood (who proves he is the owner of the home) would be arrested because he expresses indignation at being thought a criminal?

[WeDidIt]

34. It's happened before

It'll happen again.

[dgibby]

58. How about the white mayor and his wife and MIL in Md?

The police used a swat team to break into their home, kill their pet dogs, throw the elderly MIL down on the floor, all because of a drug raid gone wrong?

The above instance is just an example that this can happen to anyone, regardless of race, although it certainly happens more often to minorities.

I'm not taking sides in this thing with Dr. Gates. I don't have enough info to make an informed decision. I'd like to hear from everyone involved, Dr. Gates, witnesses, the other officers, etc.

[Solomon]

74. Here we go again with the false equivalency.

The facts of that case are so different than this one that it's ridiculous to bring it up. But since the mayor in that case is white, that's the connection you push. Totally different kind of situation and you know it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. IOW, you are an authoritarian. Got it. nt

[EffieBlack]

118. Under your reasoning, a black man should NEVER mouth off to a cop

since he should know that the cop has a gun and could be a racist and therefore, he runs the risk of being arrested or shot and, even if the cop is wrong to do so, it's the black man's fault BECAUSE HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!

Yes, if only black people weren't so damned uppity and knew their place, we'd all get along so much better.

[backscatter712]

47. Damned fucking straight.

Gates was within his rights. Yeah, worst-case-scenario, he yelled at the cops. That's his fucking RIGHT!

The cops arrested Gates AFTER he presented his ID and proved he was the legal resident of the house.

Excuse me for quoting Rush Limbaugh, but

IT WAS TOTALLY ABOUT RACE!

[Demoiselle]

21. When does the need for a search warrant kick in?

All I know is what I see on Law and Order, but, don't cops need (a.) the permission of the houseowner to enter the home, and, failing that, (b.) a search warrant to be inside the house without that permission?
Dr. Gates was INSIDE his house. He produced his I.D. Why couldn't he just shut the door on the cop?

I have to be on Dr. Gates' side on this one. Cops should be capable of handling a bit of irate employer behavior (and that's what we are, their EMPLOYERS!) without going all apeshit.
If you believe that the behavior of this policeman was understandable and predictable, then I think we're in a lot of trouble in this country.

[WeDidIt]

28. Sadly, the SCOTUS has altered that to the point where you almost don't need one

Sadly.

Here's a scenario:

Your neighbor calls the cops saying there's noises coming from your home and it sounds like somebody is getting killed.

Cops don't need no stinking warrant.

Here's another scenario:

You neighbor calls and says somebody just broke into your house.

Cops don't need no stinking warrant.

[Demoiselle]

41. Hey, that's great.

Now if I get really pissed off at a neighbor, I can just make their life hell by "hearing things."
So that's enough probable cause, eh? Cheesh.


I've heard conflicting reports on who actually made the report. The early reports said "a passerby" later, they said it was a "neighbor."
On the rare occasions when I've had to call 911 here in Philly, I am careful to identify myself, and my home address. If I don't the cop on the other end of the line will insist on it.

[lazer47]

48. There is a thing in this country called PROBABLE CAUSE,,

hearsay information does not constitute probable cause

[jberryhill]

94. Report of Burglary / Broken Front Door

Those two things permit entry under exigent circumstances, as they are signs of a home invasion that may present an imminent threat of harm.

Once Gates had satisfied any reasonable suspicion on the basis of the report and the broken door, it was time to leave. Whether Gates wanted to shout at the cop on the way out was up to Gates.

[quiller4]

108. Legally he could have shut the door on the cop. n/t

[MUAD_DIB]

32. Your assessment seems rational and possible,

and thank you for not injecting race into the conversation.

[vaberella]

36. He's an old guy with a bloody cane and he showed his State ID before arrest.

The cops couldn't do a call in to see if the name on the ID matched the address on the State ID? Does that seem plausible to you. How does that make sense that they didn't do a background check before they arrested him. He showed State ID.

[WeDidIt]

60. The cops were wrong to arrest him

A little courtesy form gAtes would have probably saved him a night in jail, though.

[backscatter712]

39. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that asserting your constitutional rights was a crime in this country!

And that crime's elevated to a felony if you're black! :sarcasm:

That's what all the cop-defenders conveniently forget - it's not a crime in America to yell at a police officer, nor should it be.

Gates was well within his rights - once he presented his ID, it was clear that no crime was being committed, and the cops should have said "OK, I see you're the legal resident of this house, Mr. Gates. Sorry to bother you."

But noooooo, the cops couldn't just walk away - they had to say "We can't have come all the way out here without arresting a nigger." and they escalated.

That sack-of-shit cop needs to lose his fucking badge. Lose his badge, lose his benefits, lose everything. Fucking racist trash.

[WeDidIt]

63. I'm not defneding the cop. He was a jerk

I'm not defending Gates actions prior to arrest, either. Be a jerk to a jerk cop and go to jail for a night.

It's not right, but it happens hundreds of times every day in this country.

HAd he been courteous, he probably would have never gone to jail.

[BklnDem75]

40. Being a jerk is not an arrestable offense...

Especially in your own house. Please stop trying to defend it.

[Raineyb]

68. Thank you.

All these pathetic defenses are really revolting.

:puke:

[WeDidIt]

69. That's where you're wrong.

People who are jerks to cops are arrested every day. That's not the charge, but that doesn't change the fact that they were arrested and thrown in jail for a night.

I'm not defending it, I just understand the realities of dealing with cops.

[Raineyb]

70. And it's wrong. Therefore being a jerk is not an arrestable offense and the cop who does so

is abusing his authority.

[WeDidIt]

76. Happens every day

and the cops suffer no consequences.

[Raineyb]

117. That is the problem

We need to get these damn cops in line. Make a few lose their job and pay out of their pocket for this bullshit and it'll stop soon enough.

[BklnDem75]

88. Doesn't make what I said any less true

And, sadly, you are defending it. What you're advocating is obedience to authority.

[sledgehammer]

90. Being a jerk in your own home....

...when the cops have enough info to leave you alone is not something that should get you arrested.

You've shown your ID, you've proved you live there, now you can be as much of a verbal jerk as you want and you are within your rights, as long as you don't threaten the lives of the officers (and there's no indication that Gates did that).

There was no danger to anyone else's life or property. The cops should have left.

And if it happens hundreds of times everyday, it's wrong everyday. It's abuse of power each time. Just because it happens to others doesn't make it acceptable.

Regardless of race, this issue is has serious implications on abuse of power. And that's what needs to be brought to light here.

[Teaser]

99. Incorrect

wrongful arrests do not constitute arrestable offenses.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. I'm a jerk in my house all the time.

Just this morning I swore at my cat for scratching me.

Maybe I deserve to go to jail.

[babylonsister]

44. A man's home is his castle. Dr. Gates has every right to be

indignant. He identified himself, was confronted in his home.

You got it half right. The cop was a jerk.

The lady who called the cops needs a course in common sense when she sees black people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. If I were Gates, I have a hard time envisioning this happening to me.

My initial reaction would have been, "good... I'm glad that the cops are keeping an eye out for people trying to break into my house".

With that as a starting point, I doubt the situation would have escalated.

... which doesn't excuse the officer's behavior. He's paid to take some degree of hostility and if he can't, he should find other work.

Then again, I'm white, and my best friend is a cop.

[Solomon]

75. How do you know that that wasn't his initial reaction?

You give all the credibility to the police report which is obviously ginned up in an attempt to support a bogus charge, and ascribe all the bad behavior to Gates.

Why? Oh, your best friend is a cop.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. I didn't say that.

I said I have a hard time envisioning this happening to me, largely because of my attitudes toward police.

It is counterintuitive that the cops pluck people off their own porches just 'cuz. It looks bad and is a waste of time.

The cop obviously overreacted to Gates' frustration. The officer *was* stupid. I'm saying that if an officer came to my porch to simply verify that I wasn't a burglar, I wouldn't have been annoyed, and the officer's stupidity wouldn't have had such an unfortunate effect.

Maybe if Gates had given the cops half as much benefit of the doubt as you are asking of me, none of this would have happened.

And yes, my best friend is a cop. I believe I said that. If you think that this means I support ginned up evidence and bogus charges, you needn't look so far afield to find bigotry.

[mkultra]

51. The only person not obeying the law was the cop

Gates proved his identity and that his presence in the Harvard housing area was valid with his Harvard ID.

At that point, the law requires that the officer back down. He didn't.

[lazer47]

52. Yours is the only thread, that hit the nail on the head

[WeDidIt]

61. I didn't say the cop was right to arrest

But being courteous to a cop can save you from being wrongfully arrested and spending a night in jail.

[mkultra]

80. sure, but sometimes you have to draw the line

Part of the reason that cops gain this god like attitude is because they may not have their ideas challenged enough.

have you ever had a cop pull you over for going 5 over the speed limit and then have to listen to a lecture on driving saftey?

I have and it was all bullshit. The only reason i actually listened was out of a hope of getting a warning. This happens a lot and frankly is part of the the problem. You can cower if you want but count me out. I have rights and i have rehearsed the phrase "I don't consent to any searches officer. Am i free to go?"

As far as I'm concerned, I'm free until i do something wrong. the complexities of enforcing the law fall on their shoulders, not mine.

[okieinpain]

53. that's exactly what happened. n/t.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. I have a new cost cutting idea! Let's halt all police training immediately

Because apparently, despite the vast sums we spend on it, police training is meaningless, and doesn't work. A police officer can't be expected to act like a professional despite loads of training, and will act like any other person on the street. The definition of a professional is a person who has specialized knowledge and would not be expected to act like any random person on the street. You don't think this applies to police officers, so let's just cut all the bullshit about "law enforcement professionals" and cut all those training dollars along with it. A cop should be expected to behave just like any layperson, right?

[WeDidIt]

62. A jerk is a jerk, and no amount of training removes jerkiness

That's sadly a fact of the human experience.

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. That's all well and good, but the man should not be a cop

I can't fail my students because they disrespect me, and if I did, I should be reprimanded at the very least. Your whole "jerks are jerks" schtick is all well and good if you're prattling some little philosophy about the human condition. But the question here has to do with whether a somebody paid to behave as a PROFESSIONAL was acting professionally. It's no doubt true that professionals can be jerks, too. That's a trivial and irrelevant point. The question is whether somebody CAN or DID behave as a professional when we've empowered them on the condition that they DO behave as a professional, and not merely as any other "human" might. That's why we train people. But for you, the "human condition" trumps all training, and this would seem to make the training, and all that cash we spend on it, pointless and unnecessary. So, essentially, you're agreeing with me, no?

[WeDidIt]

73. IF you kicked every jerk cop off of every force in the country

the remaining cops would have to work 24X7 and every force would still not have enough staff.

Sad, but true.

[mkultra]

81. maybe decent cops leave because the enviroment is so toxic

Maybe if you kicked the assholes off the force, the void would be filled by more decent cops.

[alcibiades_mystery]

83. So, like I said, you agree

Spending tons of cash on training is useless, since expecting cops to act like professionals is a fools errand, right? Is that your position?

[WeDidIt]

85. I love how you are putting words in my mouth

Come back when you have an argument to make.

[alcibiades_mystery]

96. I made my argument

You seem unwilling to fess up to yours. It is a logical conclusion of your argument that we cannot expect cops to act as professionals, since it is just something like the human condition that causes vague jerkiness, so, oh well. It would be a further conclusion that attempting to professionalize (i.e., train) cops to behave professionally is a waste of money, since, oh well, people can just be jerks. If those aren't logical conclusions to your point, show me how they're not.

Your whole "jerk" argument misses the fundamental point: if you are being empowered to act based on your DIFFERENCE from UNTRAINED responses (i.e., act as a professional), then "just being a jerk" doesn't cut it. It goes precisely to whether the cop was acting professionally, which is to say, properly. Your little "jerk argument" forgets all this, and thus serves as nothing more than a cowardly way to excuse unprofessional behavior.

[WeDidIt]

97. So your argument is to put words into my mouth

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

98. No, it's to draw logical conclusions from your point

You seem unable to defend your argument in any case.

[WeDidIt]

101. IT would help if you used logic. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

103. I've already laid out how my points follow logically

You have no response, likely because your point is collapsing, and was weak to begin with. You can't fall back on the "jerk" defense without having to grapple with the problem of trained professional response. You are seemingly unable to do so.

[WeDidIt]

126. All you've done is put words in my mouth

There was no logic involved.

[quiller4]

109. but worth it. Jerk cops endanger everyone. n/t

[jberryhill]

71. The Thing Is - Yes, The Dynamics Are Two Pissed Off People, But...

...one of those people is acting in an official professional capacity.

Police have to manage domestic disputes, and a lot of other tense situations in which people are not necessarily at their best.

Even if, on some level, the situation was "two angry people", it is the cop's responsibility as the one acting in his professional capacity to manage the situation appropriately.

[WeDidIt]

77. Definitely an abuse of power

but one that never is punished, too.

IT happens all the time every day. No cop is ever taken to task for it.

It's an unwritten punitive action cops take on people they think disrespected their authority.

And as with nearly all cases of bad cops on the force, all the other cops look the other way because nobody wnats to partner with a cop who rats out another cop.

[jberryhill]

93. Consider....

There are millions of cop/citizen interactions every day.

So, yes, there are going to be ones which do not go well.

But the headline, "Police Act Calmly In Tense Situation And Nothing Interesting Happens" is not one that makes the news very often, nor should it.

[MarjorieG]

72. Gates, tired from travel and one indignity too many, 'had words' as Obama said.

But police need to learn to diffuse, as well. That should be part of what they learn, not just respect the badge at ALL costs.

I wonder if Obama weighed in because of enough of an immense problem to have a discussion, not just gratitude for a non-health question. He certainly had to experience the Cambridge police while at Harvard, which I knew as jealousy at Harvard kids, who don't always wear their smarts in a grown-up way. Could I say perceived entitlement on both sides?

After sufficient righteousness of police for defending their own, I hope they think twice what effects that profiling has had on minorities and feel empathy, or just step back.

[WeDidIt]

78. ABSOLUTELY!

But it'll never happen that way.

IT's cop culture. Cops cannot rat out other cops because cops that don't defend their fellow cops in all cases are not trusted by other cops and cannot get backup when they need it.

[redqueen]

86. Then cop culture has to change. (nt)

[redqueen]

84. "police need to learn to diffuse... not just respect the badge at ALL costs."

Thank you!

It sure would be nice if they'd think twice about empathy... but that "no apology" crap from the idiot cop shows it's not happening in this case... not in that PD.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on pogroms against black people...

and arresting them in their own homes.

[WeDidIt]

102. Using the term "pogrom" is hyperbolic rhetoric.

It's also disrespectful of real vitims of real pogroms.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. "Gates was a jerk" is hyperbolic rhetoric.

And disrespectful to a victim of racism.

[WeDidIt]

121. HE was a jerk

"Your mama" is a jerk repsonse to a cop, regardless of the fact that the cop was a jerk. Period.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

122. And jerkdom is *STILL* not grounds for arrest.

[WeDidIt]

123. You don;t know anything about cops and their power, do you?

Being a jerk to a cop can most certainly get you arrested. The punishment is usually one night in jail. There is no appeal, not court, no jury.

I don't like it, but it is the reality of our system.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

125. That is an abuse of power.

And who on earth would describe abusing power as anything other than "acting stupidly".

[WeDidIt]

127. It may well be

but there is not a single case in this nation where any cop is ever punished for doing it.

[Political Heretic]

112. One "idiot" was guilty of being black on his own property and in his own home.

The other was not.

[4lbs]

124. Anyone think about the initial call to the police from the female 'witness'?

Andrea Mitchell obtained a copy of the initial call report, and there were some amazing claims.

The initial call claimed that two young black men with backpacks were trying to break into the house.

TWO... YOUNG... black men... WITH BACKPACKS....


How can someone make such an egregious error to confuse a 58-year old black man, walking with a limp and a cane, as TWO, YOUNG, black men, WITH BACKPACKS ?

[MUAD_DIB]

129. That would depend on how old the witness was and if they needed glasses.