Obama never should have weighed in on the Gates thing

[cleveramerican]

After saying "I don't have all the facts"
everything after that should have never been said.

Gates should have produced his ID and proof of residency without complaint or anger.
He should have thanked both the cop and his neighbor for watching out for his home while he was away.

His list of excuses is comical
He couldn't have yelled because a of a bronchial infection(witnesses say he was yelling)
he couldn't be in a cell because of severe claustrophobia, I'm sure the cops have never heard that one before!,must have been hell on the flight from CHINA!
It was all due to jet lag. ( did he say this with a straight face?)


no matter what color you are when a cop asks for ID you cooperate,without delay.
when a neighbor looks out for your home you should be grateful.
when the cops look out for your home you should be grateful.


If a burglar had answered the door and and the cop took his word for it and left him to continue robbing the place, would that have been racism too?

[babylonsister]

1. Bunk. This man is a friend of his who was treated unfairly. Why do

you think the president should censor himself?

[cleveramerican]

4. he himself said I don't know all the facts

I take him at his word

[babylonsister]

6. So? He had a pretty good grasp of what went down. nt

[cleveramerican]

12. except for the part about the ID

initially he refused to produce and ID or proof of residency
instead he went off on a "do you know who I am?" rant.
That was Gates' mistake

[babylonsister]

17. If you're trying to convince me you're right, you're wasting your time.

Bye now.

[cleveramerican]

21. hoping you might just see there's two sides

I'm sure your opinion is fully formed

[wndycty]

28. He never refused to show ID

:kick:

[cleveramerican]

34. thats just plain wrong

all the local news outlets reported it initially refused, going off on a "do you know who I am?" style rant.
Gates has nobody but himself to blame
as unfashionable as that may be.

[wndycty]

39. He showed 2 forms of ID before being arrested. . .

. . .so please explain to me why he was arrested AFTER showing 2 forms of ID.

[cleveramerican]

42. once he realized he was going to be arrested

he got real cooperative in a hurry but by then it was too late.
he thought he was a too much of a big shot to get arrested.
he was wrong.

[wndycty]

57. He showed ID in house. . .at the time he showed ID there was no threat of arrest

:kick:

[wicket]

71. You are not required to show ID to the police in Massachusetts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop-and-identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

[polmaven]

85. And except for the part

about having locked himself out and "jimmying" to door open.

"I don't have all the facts. It would be inappropriate for me to comment" would have been a very acceptable answer.

[EffieBlack]

67. He said he didn't have enough facts to know what role race played in the incident

But then went on to give his opinion about what happened based upon what he DID know.

[Butch350]

70. Yes, he should censor himself, because he was not there.

The police were doing their job. I would applaud the cop for doing his duty.

What we have here is a man back from vacation, who was sick, tired, and locked out of his house. He was
understandably a little irritated. What's wrong with the police verifying the true owner of the home?

If a man walks up to you who represents the law and is packing 9mm - you show id when asked. Plain and simple.

Now what if he had gotten back from vacation to find his home had been robbed or vandalised and found out that the cops
had confronted the individual robbing the joint, and the cops took him for being the owner of the house, without asking
for id. I bet he would really be pissed.

[SIMPLYB1980]

2. Unrecommended for not so smart American.

:eyes:

[wndycty]

3. You are wrong, he should. . .AMERICA should just understand how to deal with the issue

The problem is not Obama's answer, its the inability of this country to deal with matters of race in a constructive manner.

[CatWoman]

5. WHY?

cause "YOU" say so?

[cleveramerican]

8. see #4

[CatWoman]

61. i saw it

and i must still ask 'why'?

[kjackson227]

7. He was asked the question, and he answered HONESTLY.

[BurtWorm]

9. Do you have all the facts?

Why are you weighing in? Did anyone ask you for your opinion?

[cleveramerican]

10. answer the closing question in th op

do you leave a cop a place to stand or do you just oppose them in a knee jerk way

[wndycty]

11. Well if the "burgular" showed ID that showed he lived there and there were. . .

. . .pictures of him throughout the house, I think I'd believe him.

[cleveramerican]

15. He initially refused to produce any ID

It escalated from there

[wndycty]

38. He showed 2 forms of ID before being arrested. . .

. . .so why didn't the episode end after he showed two forms of ID indicating he lived there.

[fishwax]

41. how do you know he refused to produce any ID?

That's what the initial police report says, but that doesn't seem to match Gates's account of what happened.

[cleveramerican]

43. The first report

Gate's version has"evolved" since then.

[Cha]

51. If you're so "clever" ..why did the

police drop the charges?

[cleveramerican]

55. look at the shitstorm

The police caved to pressure.
they shouldn't have but they did
and the president shouldn't have thrown millions of cops under the bus because his pal is embarrassed he acted like an ass.

[Cha]

59. "The police caved to pressure"

:rofl:

You should change your username.

[wndycty]

56. Well the police acknowledge he showed ID

How come you keep ignoring that?

[cleveramerican]

62. I'm not ignoring it

But I'm also not surprised when a guy in jail claims he's innocent, claims brutality, claims racism.
prisons are just full of innocent people by your measure

[musicblind]

79. You sound like a police sympathiser?

Are you a cop?


You should check out some info on "police personality": http://www.abuseofpower.info/Culture_Brotherhood.htm

While there are many non-corrupt cops, there are many who feel they have a special authority over others. People with certain personalities are drawn to police work and many police have no problems lying if they feel the ends justify the means. I have had a cop blatantly lie on a police report. Not only that, he wrote down the witnesses' name, address, AND phone number all slightly incorrect so no one could contact the witness. We literally had to use a separate party to hunt down the witness who then signed a sworn affidavit that the police officer blatantly lied about his statements and lied on the police report. It was an endless investigation, that got the police report changed three times, but nothing ever happened to the officer. He was heavily protected by the police department and it took over a month and us tracking down the witness before they would even consider our complaint. Once having considered our complaint an investigator chosen BY THE POLICE agreed that his police report was not mathematically possible for the vehicles to have done what he claimed they did. They changed the police report to find the other person at fault. However, the police officer then complained so two weeks later they changed it again to "fault cannot be determined" despite no new evidence. Despite the eye witness saying that she pulled out in front of me, despite the police department's investigator saying she had to have pulled out in front of me, and despite the woman's story changing more than once. Nothing happened to the officer who obviously knew the woman in the accident. He was completely protected by the police department.

I had another officer pull me over after leaving a ball game at the high school when I was younger. He insisted he "smelled pot" in my car (even though I have never done pot or had pot in my car. I don't even drink alcohol or caffeine for that matter) and he claimed this was "reasonable cause" to search the car. It was obvious he was lying. He even did a fake over the top "sniff" thing with his nose. It took an hour of them searching my car, searching me, threatening to go to my house and search my house if I did tell them the names of people I knew who smoked pot. WHICH WAS NOBODY (though that changed when I went to college, but damn, wtf?) and the frisked my body twice, and my hat. This all happened right at the exit from the high school, where the game was letting out, where everyone saw this happening to me. Finally they found nothing and let me go, but it was a nightmare being threatened, I wanted to flat out cry. I'm a small person, 5'5 and I may be male but I'm gay and did not feel very much like I could defend myself verbally or physically if need be.

So I can say from my anecdotal evidence as well as from a good deal of research (I now have a degree in psychology from UNC-Greensboro) that police cannot always be trusted to tell the truth on a police report.

[cleveramerican]

88. its just too easy to attack them after the fact.

I do think they are doing a difficult, thankless job.
I object to knee jerk assumptions that cops are all power-mad racist assholes.

I have always(40 years) found the Cambridge, and Harvard cops to be professional and fair.

I agree they cannot ALWAYS be trusted
I think the public owes them a level of trust initially.Sadly absent in today's posts.

[polmaven]

86. Gates version actually

seems to have changed on an hourly basis for a while.

[fishwax]

96. Can you show me where Gates's version has evolved as you say?

I don't remember his version ever including a refusal to show identification.

The first report was drawn from the police report, and had nothing to do with Gates's version.

[quiller4]

52. He never resued according to the press statement released

jointly by police and mayor. That is one of the reasons that the mayor apologized.

[scheming daemons]

13. The INSTANT that Gates showed his ID, the cop should have left...

Without saying another word... no matter WHAT Gates said.

It is not against the law to insult a cop.

The exact instance that Gates showed an ID, everything the cop did afterwards that did NOT involve leaving was a wrong action by the cop.

[BurtWorm]

14. If you're a cop, do you act stupid when arresting a black man who's just shown you he owns the home

you were sent to arrest him for breaking into?

To answer your question: I usually try to make it as easy for a cop as I can, to get rid of him quicker. But if he's an asshole--and many of them can be--I sometimes can't help but give him shit right back. I don't tend to get in trouble for giving cops shit, though. I wonder if it's because I'm not black.

[jehovas_waitress]

69. My answers to cops: Yes sir (or Ma'am). Answer only what you are asked.

If in a car, TWO HANDS on the wheel until asked for docs, and dome light on.

[Iris]

72. He wasn't in a car. He was in his OWN HOME.

What part of that is so hard to understand? Cops came into his own home and demanded he prove he lived there.

[jehovas_waitress]

75. I know. And I said "IF" in a car. N/T

[Onlooker]

16. He should not have weighed in at that time

Obama's points were right on, but it completely distracted from health care. Today, it seems that Obama's race remarks are dominating the news, while health care is not getting the coverage it needs. Also, weighing in on an issue that's not fully resolved (Gates might sue; more info has turned up, including a witness who said Gates was belligerent) is simply going to haunt him as the issue moves forward. He should have said that he's glad charges were dropped and, if he wanted to say more, saved it for another time.

[HopeOverFear]

19. Yeah it was a textbook "gotcha" moment

[Cha]

54. The corporatemedia has nothing

but negative shit to say about Health Care Reform..meantime Pres Obama, his Team, and activists are working to get it done. Who needs the corporatemediawhores? Huh, when have they ever helped?

Pres Obama was asked a direct question and he answered..good for him.

[HopeOverFear]

18. You're right. Both Obama and Gates should have remembered their place

Like good Negroes.

[MyUserNameIsBroken]

20. Headlines if Obama stops at "I don't have all the facts"

"President refuses to stick up for black scholar"
"Obama throws black friend under bus for politics again"
"Prez: 'I can't say what happened was wrong'"

It was a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't question. Obama decided to speak honestly about how he felt instead of parsing it for the jackals. Good for him.

If anyone here thinks the situation would have unfolded the same had Gates been white...they live in a different country.

[cleveramerican]

23. if Gates were white

there would be no headlines, no story at all.
the charges would have stood

[MyUserNameIsBroken]

26. Ah, yeah, right

Whatever gets you through the night.

[wndycty]

27. You mean there would have been no charges. . .

. . .once the police realized he owned the home they would have left and apologized for bothering him.

[Incitatus]

22. It looks like someone's been watching Fox News and listening to Rush.

:eyes:

[cleveramerican]

25. I saw it on the local news

a full day before it became a national story.

Local news is pretty good here.

[quiller4]

53. And your local paper condemned the cop involved and urged the

mayor to apologize.

[cleveramerican]

64. The mayor and the chief both stood by Sgt. Crowley

as they should.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

77. The mayor talked to Gates personally and apologized and governor said the incident is troubling.

"Gov. Deval Patrick, who is black, said he was troubled and upset over the incident. Cambridge Mayor Denise Simmons, who also is black, has said she spoke with Gates and apologized on behalf of the city, and a statement from the city called the July 16 incident "regrettable and unfortunate.""

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/page/2/

[cleveramerican]

81. well, yesterday she stood by him

today she reversed herself

[SemiCharmedQuark]

82. Maybe she was able to learn more about the incident.

[cleveramerican]

84. or she caved to racism

[SemiCharmedQuark]

87. Please explain how dropping a bogus charge is racism?

From the article I cited to you before:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/page/2/

"Richard Weinblatt, director of the Institute for Public Safety at Central Ohio Technical College, said the police sergeant was responsible for defusing the situation once he realized Gates was the lawful occupant. It is not against the law to yell at police, especially in a home, as long as that behavior does not affect an investigation, he said."

[cleveramerican]

89. charges get dropped for all sorts of reasons

lots of them have nothing to do with the facts of the case

[SemiCharmedQuark]

90. Once again: It is not illegal to yell at a cop.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_an... /

"Richard Weinblatt, director of the Institute for Public Safety at Central Ohio Technical College, said the police sergeant was responsible for defusing the situation once he realized Gates was the lawful occupant. It is not against the law to yell at police, especially in a home, as long as that behavior does not affect an investigation, he said."

[cleveramerican]

91. read the police report

he did more than yell at him
if he just stayed inside when the cop exited he wouldn't have been arrested.
once you follow the cop outside hollering derogatory comments in front of other cops and ordinary citizens,you have crossed a line.

under these circumstances it most certainly is against the law to yell at cops.


I understand your view, you seem to have dismissed mine.
The president should have kept his focus, and not stepped into this steaming pile,kept the emphasis on his pending health care bill.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

92. Nothing you posted constitutes anything more than "yelling". He didn't strike him, or throw things

at him. He just yelled.

And no, that is not grounds for arrest.

Now, as to the other issue: This question was a gotcha question from the start. If Obama had sidestepped it, people still would be talking about it, just that Obama was not saying enough about the issue.

[cleveramerican]

95. I think he could have artfully sidestepped it,with style and grace,..

and saved himself some grief.
this is something he's usually so good at.

[Jennicut]

24. Are we that afraid to discuss racial issues with cops in America? I am glad he spoke about it.

I was proud of him.

[cleveramerican]

31. Except he got it wrong

it'll come back and bite him in the ass a day from now.

And He foolishly moved the story off health care onto the minefield of racism.

[uponit7771]

33. The man showed his ID, STILL got arrested and OBAMA got it wrong!?!??!

WOW

[PVnRT]

29. Yes, he should have, it's an endemic problem in this country

You can write all the laws you want against racial profiling, but it still happens, every day. Would the cop have behaved the same way if a white man had answered the door? And since when is saying naughty words to a cop an arrestable offense?

[predfan]

30. We have a lot of Hispanics in our rural town, and they're profiled all the time.

But we're, sadly, about as redneck a community in one of the few states to have actually gotten REDDER after the last election.
One would hope that Cambridge police, talking to a 60ish obviously well educated black man who's already shown he was IN HIS OWN HOUSE would be disciplined enough to walk away, regardless of how irate Dr. Gates was. I'm surprised he wasn't tased.

[izzybeans]

32. Right because being arrested on your front porch makes perfect sense.

:sarcasm:

In Chicago, I've had to tell policemen and women to go f' themselves on a number of occasions. I take that as my right, when they overstep their authority. It should be everyone's right not to acquiesce to arbitrary state power. This case is clear cut in its absurdity. Being asked for papers in your own home and then arrested. It's clearly a go f' yourself moment. A proper one.

To say otherwise is to bow to authoritarianism and to defend this cop is to suckle on its fat little nub.

Obama was asked about it. And he was careful in his answer so he didn't rile up the absurdist wing of of the racist party.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleveramerican]

36. sounds like another easy charge of racism

in an effort to save himself from the embarrassment admitting acting like an arrogant jerk

[mkultra]

37. arrogance is not againts the law.

Detaining a citizen without cause is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Burglars... black people.... they all look the same, right?

I guess it wasn't a vault copy of his picture I.D., right?

[Hard_Work]

44. My God, is this a White talking point?

"If a burglar had answered the door and and the cop took his word for it and left him to continue robbing the place, would that have been racism too?"

Again, how the hell many burglars have you heard of who answer the door of the house they're robbing when the fucking POLICE knock? My God, this is getting silly!

[Iris]

47. If it is, I didn't get the message.

And I don't want it.

The whole thing was bullshit. Period. No White person would ever expect or put up with being treated that way and to suggest a Black man SHOULD is the height of arrogance.

[Number23]

102. "No White person would ever expect or put up with being treated that way

...and to suggest a Black man SHOULD is the height of arrogance."

Thank you. Seriously, thank you.

[Iris]

103. you shouldn't have to thank me

but it's nice that you did!

:loveya:

[Starry Messenger]

60. It's one of the more insidious forms of bigotry.

Using a lot of strawmen to completely rearrange events to suit a POV that eliminates the importance of the POV of the victim.

[musicblind]

83. It's not a white talking point

It's a bigot talking point. We aren't all that way. I promise.

[rug]

45. Gates should have promptly produced his ID and Obama must promptly produce his birth certificate.

Is that right?

Please reveal your real name in your response.

Thank you.

[Iris]

46. Fuck that shit.

I'm sorry for the language, but what white person would be ok with having to present an ID showing you belong in YOUR OWN DAMN HOUSE!!!!

Yes, Obama needed to address this. This is the kind of shit that needs to be talked about and who better to lead the discussion?

[BklnDem75]

48. Maybe you should have taken your own advice...

before creating this fail thread. There's nothing factual in your entire post, so I won't bother correcting you.

[cleveramerican]

58. there are none so blind.....

as those who will not see

[mkultra]

65. irony

[BklnDem75]

68. Funny coming from you...

You came up with your own version of what 'really' happened with zero links to back it up. The police report doesn't mention your scenario at all. If your scenario was correct, Gates would've been arrested for B & E along with any other charges that followed.

So tell me... Who's the blind one when they need to create BS to fit into their argument?

[cleveramerican]

73. I created nothing

I simply said Obama never should have waded into this because:
1.He can't win
2.He foolishly changed the lead off health care

It would seem you have accepted the easiest,simplest version (Black guy=good/cop=bad)
I understand it, it just is unwise at this moment in time

[BklnDem75]

76. O rly?

"once he realized he was going to be arrested
he got real cooperative in a hurry but by then it was too late.
he thought he was a too much of a big shot to get arrested.
he was wrong."

Hmmm... smells like created BS to me

[cleveramerican]

80. I know your version is easier ...

the sad hard truth is Gates could have avoided this with a little cooperation and tact.
If you, white or black or latina, go off on a "You don't know who your messing with" rant,
it turns out bad for you, this case is proof of that.

[BklnDem75]

94. That's why facts are important

You don't know if Gates yelled 'You don't know who you're messing with' before or after he was cuffed. I don't know which country you live in, but in this country, police don't dictate how a person is suppose to behave, especially in their own residence. Simply because you've learned to be a bit submissive towards authority doesn't mean we should follow your lead.

[TheKentuckian]

49. Mr Gates is not obligated by the law to act as you prescribe, it is not illegal to be an ass

It is illegal to falsely imprison people and the bullshit charge tells me that Mr Gates' rights were violated.

I don't get the scrambling to excuse or legitimize this incident. Mr Gates clearly and obviously broke no laws and was in his own home therefore it is ALWAYS wrong to arrest him even if was as crappy and rude in the way he handled the cop as can be imagined.

[quiller4]

50. Bullshit.

[Phx_Dem]

63. Bullshit. It gives the tabloid media something to focus on

instead of misleading people about health insurance reform being "in trouble," which it is not!

It's kinda like giving a dog a bone so he won't chew your shoes.

I dont' give a shit if Gates was verbal or beligerent to those moron cops (all six of them who showed up at his house as if a murder had taken place!). Once they had his I.D. they should have left. And obviously the Chief of Police agrees or they wouldn't have dropped the charges.

The cops were absolutely right to respond and request I.D. But once they saw it, they should have left. The cops can mistreat people and traser anyone who looks at them cross-eyes, but we'reu not allowed to be verbal with them even though there were no threats made. The other thing the cop did wrong was follow Gates into his house without being invited. They don't have the right to walk into your house without a warrant. No wonder gates was pissed.

[Aramchek]

66. i guess you have a problem with the truth

[msanthrope]

74. Why was that cop in the house in the first place? A 4th amend. issue,

Here in America, probable cause for entry into a house is not to be found merely because your paranoid white neighbor saw a Black man enter your house.

You know why those charges were dropped?

Because the cop had no probable cause to be in the house, but, assumed that Gates didn't have standing to challenge the violation.

In other words, the cop entered a premises that he had no right to be in, thinking that the Black man he was looking at was not the homeowner.


He was wrong.

[cleveramerican]

78. He rang the doorbell and was let in

responding to a 911 call

[msanthrope]

101. That is a lie--even the cop doesn't claim that in the report:

he didn't ring the doorbell, and he wasn't welcomed in.

[question everything]

93. Or just stick to the original sentence that he did not know all the details

and that Gates is a friend of his and that we should wait for the conclusion.

[lexanman]

97. I think that when this is all said and done

and the facts come out, lots of "Obama should shut up" and "Gates was a big meanie yelling" crap is suddenly going to dissappear and you will never see an apology from any of these concerned posters.

The cop refused to show his badge and refused to give is name
Mr. Gates produced his ID and was still arrested
Charges were dropped.

Wait and see the threads after this is over and see if those same people come on and say anything. Crickets.

[wowimthere]

99. bingo!

[wowimthere]

98. come on... all people deserve respect... with a badge or without one...

Just like citizen need to be respectful... police should be too. They have the upperhand. Cooler heads should have prevailed. There was no need to arrest the resident after finding out who he was. Respect should be given on both sides.

[mix]

100. Your mind was made up on this issue before Gates' arrest.

That's why you don't recognize racism and racial profiling.

Epic fail.