"We have no way of distinguishing good teachers from bad ones"

[proud2BlibKansan]

You couldn't be more wrong, Mr. President.

And I don't believe for one minute you really care what teachers think. We have been telling you for how long that test scores are not the way to judge teachers' performance. But you and Arne aren't listening.

Go ahead and try to replace me. There is no line at the door of people who want my job. But I guess you don't know that.

You want to help me?

Buy me some school supplies. My district no longer provides them.

Get my kids out of a 95 year old non air-conditioned building.

HIRE MORE TEACHERS. Pay them well.

Reduce class size.

Encourage parents to be more involved.

And quit the constant testing. IT DOES NOT WORK.

edit: can't spell well when I am angry LOL

[busymom]

1. Recommend!

[BlooInBloo]

2. Yah - and replace "Great Expectations" with "The Hobbit".

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Saw that thread and did not comment

I am not a highschool teacher so I don't have an expert opinion on literature. But I do believe kids should read the classics, regardless of how boring they may seem.

[janx]

90. What?

:shrug:

[MoonRiver]

3. And, provide HEALTH CARE, no matter how many heads you need to bash,

so that kids and their families in my inner city school district won't fall apart due to illnesses THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER.
:argh:

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Amen

Anything he does to improve the lives of the poor is going to help the schools serving those kids.

[MoonRiver]

8. So many kids in my school,

come to school hungry;
come to school with untreated physical and/or psychological problems;
are homeless due to medical expenses parents can't pay for;
etc., etc.

But you have probably seen it all proud2BlibKansan.

It is an outrage that we in the schools are not provided with the adequate environments (E.G. SMALL CLASS SIZES) and equipment we need, and that the kids we try to help are left out in the cold regarding health care.

[sandnsea]

13. Do you have a breakfast program?

Do you have a program to help parents identify health care options? There are programs to help with these things that can be implemented in your school.

[MoonRiver]

15. Yes and yes,

but that doesn't even begin to address the problems. Our social worker would need to clone herself 10 times over to start addressing the issues. And we're not even talking about the myriad of psychiatric problems that poverty produces.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Very true - you are lucky you even have a social worker

We have only a counselor who is being reduced to half time.

[sandnsea]

26. Some things have fixes

I was just trying to point out that we do have the solutions to some problems, but the community and state won't step forward. I think it's important to separate the problems that have solutions that aren't implemented, and the problems that don't.

For instance, if the social worker identifies a child with a psychiatric problem, and the child has Medicaid, how do you get the parent to take action and then get the support network in the scool to help implement any behavioral strategies. That's a whole different problem and I don't think too many communities have even begun to address that.

[MoonRiver]

36. There are issues entwined within issues.

At the high school level, where I am, kids are sometimes so jaded, or badly influenced, that the ability of parents and school to intervene is minimal or gone. It's very sad. However, in the midst of sadness, many wonderful success stories exist. That's how we teachers carry on.

[sandnsea]

49. High school is a huge challenge

It almost takes a very personal connection and day by day guidance to help some of these kids turn around. It's clear nobody really has definitive answers otherwise all of these youth group homes would be working. And then for every person who supports a positive nurturing support system, there's another one, or 5 other ones, who just want to punish and restrict.

There's no doubt the majority can't achieve anything without you though.

[sandnsea]

11. The poor have Medicaid

And the kids of the working poor have SCHIP. That problem has pretty well been solved. And with school breakfast and lunch programs, so has food, at least during the school year. Many schools are implementing snack pack programs to send food home on the weekends too. I think it's time to look at changes in the classroom. There are schools that are succeeding, like in the Harlem Children's Zone. Money for supplies and bringing back, or implementing as the case may be, extra curriculars seems to be the key ingredent to some of these successful schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. No they don't

Many of my kids are not citizens. No help for them! They are ILLEGAL!!

There is also a floor on income for SCHIP and it varies from state to state. It is so low in my state that many kids aren't eligible for SCHIP.

The back snack programs are not funded by the feds. At least ours isn't. It's the churches who provide it. And we still have hungry kids in the summer. One called me last week.

They want to bring that Harlem Children's Zone into my area, and I oppose it because it is only targeted at a few schools. How do we decide which kids deserve it? How about we stop spending millions on testing and fund programs like this for ALL the kids who need them.

Yes let's change the classrooms. We can start with adequate supplies, up to date technology, air conditioning and fewer kids per classroom.

[sandnsea]

24. Ah, yes, different set of problems

We have some illegal kids in Oregon too. I do think there is a nonprofit that goes around the state and provides health care specifically to immigrants. It is funded by some of the vineyards actually. I don't suppose Kansas would support something like that.

I think the goal is to bring the principles of the Harlem Children's Zone to all towns and schools. When I watched the program last night, I immediately recognized it as the exact behaviors I've seen in 2-3 of the best school districts and communities that I've lived in. The hard part is the funding because it takes a lot more than a small classroom and good books to raise a motivated and achieving child.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. We have a few clinics and a few doctors who will provide care

but they don't begin to meet the need. It's enormous.

[sandnsea]

54. Tooth Taxi, and health care van

Here's a couple of programs here, can they be duplicated? I don't think any health plan is going to help illegals. We're going to have to figure that one out separately I suspect.

http://www.smileonoregon.org/tooth_taxi/index.shtml

http://www.saludauction.org/media/news_060908.pdf

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Those look great

My school has a dental clinic. It's awesome. But the kids have to be on Medicaid and the clinic serves kids all across the district. And it is incredibly expensive. We fight for funding all the time.

And we scramble to find health care. It's so frustrating.

[sandnsea]

86. Your school has a dental clinic???

And you're complaining about lack of money for your classroom? That makes no sense to me at all. If a district can't provide the basics for education, then they have no business spending money in other areas. The county health department should provide the dental services to kids in need, not the school district.

[RayOfHope]

93. It may be a grant program, in which case the money can only be used for that clinic

and for which the district pays nothing or very little.

Even if it isn't, schools don't get one big check and then spend it however they wish. Even If the school is funding a dental clinic, its a worthwhile resource. You wouldn't believe the amount of kids I have every year that can't concentrate because their teeth are hurting so much.

[Bluenorthwest]

87. Often 'the churches' are using Federal funds to 'provide'

that is what the Office of Faith Based Discrimination does, they hand money to churches so that the churches can appear to provide something other than sheer prejudice and division to their communities without actually doing so with their own money.
So just because it comes through a church, that does not mean it came from that church.

[AngryAmish]

6. I think the President was talking about the quarterback problem in identifying good teachers

The President reads the New Yorker. Many references to articles written there find there way into his public policy debates. This is the article I think he is talking about.

(And during the press conference talk about tonsils and allergies, read this article

[YvonneCa]

60. Great article. You may be right. n/t

[YvonneCa]

63. Here are more educator opinions from ED.gov's blog...

...for those who like to read and are interested in what educators are saying about this:

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/05/secretary-arne-duncan-takes-listening-tour-online-invites-comments-on-raising-standards/


Here's more, on 'underperforming schools'...

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/06/turning-around-low-performing-schools/

And, specifically on teacher evaluation...

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/07/secretary-arne-duncan-speaks-at-nea-conference-invites-comm/

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Hear, hear!

[madfloridian]

9. Recommended.

We are becoming a nation of test takers.

[QC]

10. Recommended. n/t

[jgraz]

12. Don't you love it when our President repeats these right-wing tropes?

Maybe you should tell him your class is "too big to fail".

[QC]

94. Does he ever do anything else? n/t

[Orsino]

14. I don't know the context here, but...

...that statement appears to have a valid point. With teachers good and bad alike overworked, underfunded and underpaid, tied to dumbed-down curricula and forced to teach to tests from lowest-common-denominator books, actual teaching skills can be hard to detect.

If we really wanted to know how well teachers could teach, though, we'd be fully funding education rather than day-care.

[TheKentuckian]

16. What is it, worship and nver question our "professionals" week?

There's not a bad or ineffective teacher in the nation, probably the world. "Professionals" seem to be all about avoiding any kind of accountability, oversight, or correction.

:sarcasm:

While, I agree that testing isn't an effective way of separating the wheat from the chaff for this profession, I do get the impression that most teachers resent the entire concept of being accountable for any outcomes in anyway barring serious misconduct and feel that more money is the only answer. Further, this wrongly assumes educators need no system to evaluate where they have weaknesses or flaws to be improved upon to make them better.

I'm a serious supporter of education (especially public education) and of the great people that devote their lives to making us a better society but I do find the the don't question me, "it's their fault", and give me more money attitude both tiring and insulting. Every other group of workers has their lazy, incompetent, and ineffective but we're supposed to pretend this doesn't apply to teachers, cops, or soldiers. All of them are A+++ at worst, many are A++++++++++++, and some are deities. If they fail then it is always someone else's fault.

Teachers need to seriously be working on some kind of framework to evaluate their effectiveness if they do not wish to depend on some stupid test. You guys are shitting us if you want us to believe that there are neither weak links nor any room for improvement and professional development. It's a lame ass lie. We all went to school so we know first hand that some are lousy or worse and we also see the outcomes. Our schools are in a great many cases failing our children and therefore our nation and it doesn't all spring from funding issues (though, those hamstrings are know and simpler to identify and correct), parents not doing their part, or stupid shiftless kids. Teachers are the biggest part of the solution and therefore logically in a position to have serious adverse affects as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Ah geez

Teachers aren't resisting accountability. We just want it done right. Testing is not the way to hold kids accountable. There are so many other much more effective ways to assess kids but since testing is cheaper, quick and dirty, we do that. And we now spend more time testing than we do teaching. But Obama wants more???? He clearly has no clue on this topic.

I also will fight to my dying day being judged by my students' test scores. I teach special ed. If my kids could do well enough on a test to get me a raise, they wouldn't need to be in special ed. Then there is the dilemna of how do we judge the counselor or the music teacher (if the school still has one). Too many holes and too many unanswered questions no one will address. Just test, test, test, data, data, data and use it all to judge our teachers. Yuck.

[gorfle]

43. So what metric do you propose?

What measurable metric would you propose for measuring your proficiency?

[BlooInBloo]

29. Yes. Teaching is MAGIC. Unlike any other profession. It is IMPOSSIBLE to judge teachers...

There is NO CONCEIVABLE way to metricize a teacher's performance. Just let them in, as illiterate and uneducated as they are, and that's all there is to it. Don't ask further questions.

[PVnRT]

33. Funny, coming from a guy with a "Union Yes!" avatar

I guess unions are OK provided that they don't represent teachers.

Maybe you, in all your wisdom, could inform us lowlifes exactly how it is you could metrically measure a teachers' performance.

[BlooInBloo]

34. Love the union. Hate the stupidity of the typical members of this one. Same with cops...

Love the union, though.


EDIT: Clarified subject.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. I am proud of my union

My local is the most consistent, dependable and reliable stakeholder in my district. We provide better PD and represent our teachers and kids far better than our district does. And at the national level, my union is a better source for research and training than most school districts and state depts.

[Odin2005]

82. LOL, I was just gonna mention the people who call you anti-union if you criticize teachers

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

83. They seem to think that's an INSTANT WIN button or something....

Further confirmation of teachers' thinking abilities.

[gorfle]

40. Man I wish I could recommend replies. +1000

You expressed my sentiments exactly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. To believe that you have to accept the fact that schools are failing our kids

I argue they are not. Our COMMUNITIES are failing. My kids go home to poverty, hunger and high crime rates. Single parent homes. Frustrated and overworked parents. No health care. No social services.

Schools cannot do it all. A hungry child cannot learn. A child whose parents do not speak English is going to have a harder time learning to read. A child who has never been to a zoo or a museum is going to have a hard time learing about animals and art. All these factors affect achievement. Yet we at the school level are blamed when kids fail.

Until our society places the needs of children above so many other things, our kids will continue to fail. This is a huge issue and fixing schools is not the only remedy.

[gorfle]

80. I agree with you.

See my post #78.

The number one determinator for student success is motivation.

A child who is hungry, can't speak the language, or has unplugged parents is going to be much harder to motivate, and teachers are powerless in this regard.

[SoxFan]

74. +1

:fistbump: :thumbsup:

[Odin2005]

81. +1

One criticizes teachers at one's peril, if you don't think all teachers are wonderful, self-sacrificing angels you are condemned as an enemy of public education.

[Wednesdays]

19. Yes, there IS a line at the door of people who want your job!

Non-certified youngsters getting positions in charter schools. Heck, they figure schools are becoming like McDonald's, and the work easier than flipping burgers (so they think).

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. And Teach for America!!

That's a fun program. LOL

[Uzybone]

20. My GF talks about the underperfoming teachers she has to deal with all day

And she agreed that her district does not distinguish good teachers from mediocre ones.

The rest of your Op is correct though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Well I must be lucky

Cause I have worked with very few "underperforming teachers". My co-workers work their butts off. And we have decent test scores too.

[Peregrine]

21. I'm a middle school science teacher

and next week I'll be heading out to buy school supplies (about $200) then each month I'll spend about $50 - $70 on supplies for labs.

If you want to know the performance of a teacher, as the principal. If he/she doesn't know, fire him/her. A good principal knows everything that is going on in the school, and knows what teachers are doing well, who needs help, or who needs to go.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. That is very true

Why are we always blaming teachers while principals are NEVER discussed?

I finally started asking friends and family for help with school supplies. I sent a list out last week. It brings attention to the problem and saves me money too. It would be awesome if we could start a school supply drive here on DU. Maybe make some believers out of these teacher bashers. I swear, please tell me one other profession where the basics you need to do your freakin job are NOT provided by your employer.

[sandnsea]

31. I'm in.

I suggested that to Uly several years ago. Could we do some kind of exchange where parents from better off schools could help parents from under-performing areas. Adopt a school??

There is a site where teachers can put up a wish list, and others respond, have you seen that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Heard about it but never saw it

[sandnsea]

58. donorschoose.org

http://www.donorschoose.org

[gorfle]

47. On principals....

Do principals control pay? Can they give better raises to teachers that, in their opinion, are better teachers than others?

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. No not in public schools

Nor would I support such a system. Principals are the reason we have poor teachers. It's their job to hire them and to fire them. And to help them when they need it. But I have seen very few principals do this well.

[gorfle]

71. OK then...

OK, well if principals have no ability to reward good teachers over bad teachers, then I'm not going to put much stock in teacher's calling for us to rely on the judgment of principals for teacher performance.

If principals really were a good means for determining good teachers and bad teachers, as has been suggested, then they should have control of the purse strings to reward good teachers and encourage bad ones.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. I don't trust most principals to judge good teaching

Most principals have no more schooling than a teacher with a masters degree. I have had TWO who were competent. And a bunch who were downright awful.

[gorfle]

76. I agree with you.

I don't think the argument of using principals to rate teacher competency is a good idea.

[sandnsea]

28. If the principal is sitting in the office

when you go to ask - fire him/her. The first sign of a good principal is that you can never find them in the office.

[tblue37]

50. When and where do they fill out all the required paperwork, then? nt

[sandnsea]

56. After the kids leave

Before they arrive, on early release days, etc. Point is that if the principal is in the office every single time you go to the school, that's a problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. They usually work 10 to 12 hour days

Mine goes in most Saturdays and works.

[gorfle]

45. This is a subjective opinion.

The subjective opinion of school principles is not a consistent metric that can be used to measure performance.

[pnorman]

30. As someone who'd been a passionate defender of unions for many years, i'll say this:

SOME of the defects in our educational system can be laid at the feet of the unions (AFT & NEA). Many unionsin this country are still influenced by the old Samuel Gompers concept of Business Unionism. That frequently works out to a "Public Be Damned!" attitude (by the union officials, rather than the teachers). That's not to mention "job security" (aka: "featherbedding"), corruption and thuggery.

But from the time of Reagan, if not well before, the union-busting movement has hidden itself behind the facade of "valid criticism". But we now have a New Sheriff in town,and he wants to discuss education reform. But on the facts of the matter, rather than as a means of attacking the labor movement. Lets see what he has to say.

pnorman

[madfloridian]

32. He just said it.

And his deputy is setting up confrontations right how with teachers.

Not a wise move for Duncan.

[pnorman]

37. Some specific details, please.

n/t

pnorman
On edit: The thrust of this posting, is that any criticism Obama may make of the present educational system, should NOT per se be perceived as the opening wedge in a campaign to break its unions. That's by no means a blanket endorsement of anything he may say or do.

[madfloridian]

51. I did not want to push my own post....but here's the link..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6136538

It concerns me a lot, because though I am retired I talk to many teachers and hear their concerns.

I don't think they expected the charter agenda to be pushed so hard with a Democratic president, and I know so many are furious over more and more testing of students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. You can push your posts in my threads anytime you want

:hug:

[pnorman]

79. I had responded to this in the wrong thread. Here it is again:

I understand your reluctance to engage in what could be perceived as "self-promotion".

But that's the sort of information I needed. I'll go through it carefully later.

I had edited my previous posting before I saw your latest, but I see no reason to modify it in any substantial manner.

pnorman

[fight4my3sons]

35. I wish I could recommend this 1000 times. n/t

[gorfle]

38. What metric do you propose instead?

If student test performance is not a valid metric to judge teacher performance, what metric do you suggest for measuring teacher performance?

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Portfolio based assessment

Teacher judgment (yes we do know more about achievement than we are given credit for knowing)

[BlooInBloo]

48. No, teachers know more about LACK of achievement.

[gorfle]

52. I am not familiar with these metrics.

Portfolio based assessment

Teacher judgment

Could you please elaborate?

[madfloridian]

53. Teachers are assessed all the time, every day..by principals and peers.

We had formal semi-annual assessments with conferences done with the principal and asst. principals.

Why is that not enough?

[gorfle]

62. Because it's subjective.

We had formal semi-annual assessments with conferences done with the principal and asst. principals.

Why is that not enough?

Are these assessments standardized? If not, they strike me as subjective. Also, it would make it hard to make comparisons across the nation.

Question: Do principals control teacher pay? Do they have the ability to reward teachers that they deem to be better teachers with better pay than their peers?

[noiretextatique]

89. most assessments in business are subjective

what "metric" was used to determine the bonuses of agi executives?

[Robb]

64. Good gravy

Not to jump in unexpectedly and late, but you want your peer and administration assessments to carry more weight than they do now?!?

That's about 180 degrees from every comment about one I've ever heard from teachers.

[madfloridian]

72. So you want the kids tested more often and more stringently?

i don't know what's worse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Portfolio based assessment

is a system where teachers and kids keep portfolios of their work all year long. Then at the end of the year, as assessment team (usually made up of teachers in the school, plus a couple administrators) judges the portfolios. There is a lot of structure in it, and teachers are given certain grade level expectations to meet. For example, one component might involve graphing and the student would need to do research and then construct a graph and draw conclusions from it, maybe write an essay explaining the graph. Then they can do book studies, where they read a book and respond with all kinds of activiites - character studies, plot maps, etc. A reasonable expectation is for the students to produce one item in each subject area once a month for their portfolio. The teacher would have to grade all the projects and the assessment team judges the portfolio as a whole.

Teacher judgment is just what it sounds like. Can this first grader read? Does this kindergartener know all of her letters? What are this child's study skills like? Teachers have to judge kids every day. But unless they are filling out a sped referral, those judgments don't count for much.

[gorfle]

68. Sounds like a test to me.

Portfolio based assessment is a system where teachers and kids keep portfolios of their work all year long. Then at the end of the year, as assessment team (usually made up of teachers in the school, plus a couple administrators) judges the portfolios. There is a lot of structure in it, and teachers are given certain grade level expectations to meet. For example, one component might involve graphing and the student would need to do research and then construct a graph and draw conclusions from it, maybe write an essay explaining the graph. Then they can do book studies, where they read a book and respond with all kinds of activiites - character studies, plot maps, etc. A reasonable expectation is for the students to produce one item in each subject area once a month for their portfolio. The teacher would have to grade all the projects and the assessment team judges the portfolio as a whole.

These portfolios sound like a test to me.

Teacher judgment is just what it sounds like. Can this first grader read? Does this kindergartener know all of her letters? What are this child's study skills like? Teachers have to judge kids every day. But unless they are filling out a sped referral, those judgments don't count for much.

Can this first grader read? What metric is used to make this determination? Presumably, some kind of test.

Does this kindergartner know all of her letters? What metric is used to make this determination? Presumably, some kind of test.

What are this child's study skills like? What metric is used to make this determination? Presumably, some kind of test.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. It's more like a series of projects

The tests we currently use last an hour or so and go on for a few days in each subject area. Typically each kid spends a few hours once a year to pass a test to show he has mastered content. Portfolios are far deeper, tell us lots more about what that child really knows and are a far better picture of achievement than a multiple choice test.

[gorfle]

78. But either way, it's a test.

But either way, it's a test that is used to judge the academic performance of the student.

I have no doubt that it is more comprehensive than a multiple-choice test.

The point is, and what I have been trying to get at, is that you have a metric for judging student performance.

In point of fact, I am not very excited about using student performance as a metric for judging teacher performance.

The reason is that teaching in this day and age is the old "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" problem. Having discussed this issue at length with a highschool teacher friend of mine, I am convinced that the single-most important determinator of student success is not the teacher, but instead the motivation level of the student. You can have the most brilliant teacher combined with the most saintly teacher - Albert Einstein crossed with Mother Theresa - and it won't matter a whit if the student is not motivated to learn. Conversely, you can have an abysmal teacher and a student with sufficient motivation to learn will overcome that handicap.

The problem, of course, is motivation. For some very few students, they are self-motivated. They understand the inherent value of education, and they see that it is the key to success in life, and they strive to attain it. For most students, some external force must be brought to bear to motivate the student. The people in the best position to be able to motivate a student are the students parents. They are the only ones who possess the power and the authority to apply whatever stick and offer whatever carrot it takes to motivate their child.

Teachers today have very little authority to apply sticks or offer carrots. What this means is that except for the few naturally inspirational teachers who have the ability to motivate students through sheer inspiration, most teachers are powerless to motivate their students. They can only provide the water. They cannot force it to be drunk.

Unfortunately, many parents today have completely unplugged from the educational process. They see school as a place to "send" their children "to be educated". They have abdicated the responsibility for their child's education! They do not go over school assignments with their children, nor hold their children accountable for their academic performance. Instead, when their children fail, they rant and rave at their child's teachers for failing to teach their children!

Then, of course, there are the many children who simply don't have parents to be involved. Either they live in single-parent homes where the single parent is working so hard to support their family they have little energy left for overseeing their child's education, or both parents are doing the same. Such families are likely to be low-income, low-educated families anyway, which often makes education less of a priority.

On a related tangent, this, my teacher friend explained to me, is why students tend to do better at private schools than public ones. It's not because the teachers are better - indeed teachers at private schools tend to be paid less than in public ones. Rather, because the parents are paying lots of money for their child's education, they are tangibly committed to their child's education. Consequently they tend to be committed to making sure their child is motivated, by whatever means necessary, to excel academically.

So I am not very much in favor of using student performance as a metric of teacher performance, because teachers are not empowered to motivate students to perform. Nonetheless, I agree with the poster who said teachers cannot continue to balk at some kind, any kind of metric to measure teacher performance and instead fall back on the ancient song of, "send more money, please."

Ultimately, however, schools turn out one simple, measurable product: students. These students will be subjected to a battery of standardized tests, and these students' academic value will be assessed by those tests. Thus the ultimate performance of a school is the collective performance of its product - its students. So while we cannot judge the effectiveness of teachers with such standardized testing, we can certainly judge the effectiveness of educational systems with such testing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Yes great thoughts

I would only mildly disagree with one point. The number one predictor of academic achievement is socio-economic status.

[gorfle]

85. The two are probably related.

I would imagine that the more well-off your parents are the more they are able and willing to motivate their children to do well academically. And of course they live in better areas of town that have better schools with better, safer learning environments.

But I still think it is motivation that trumps all.

You can be at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder but if your momma puts the fear of god into you to only bring home As on your report card, you will probably rise to those expectations.

[Still Sensible]

95. Good points. But the other reason

"...why students tend to do better at private schools than public ones" is that private schools do not have to accept or keep any and all students. My wife has taught in both private and public schools. She also points to the big difference in discipline issues between the two.

[Arkana]

42. Um, I believe the reason he's said merit pay would be so tricky to implement

is because test scores are NOT a good metric for it.

I don't agree that it's impossible to distinguish good teachers from bad, but it can be very hard to dislodge bad ones--especially if they've been teaching a long time. It requires a lot of time, effort, and painstaking analysis from people who know what they're doing.

[DailyGrind51]

46. Thank you, Colleague!

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Glad to hear you are on board.

[YvonneCa]

65. Do you realize he just set up a conflict in both California...

...and New York who have a 'fire-wall' preventing the linking of teacher and student data? The EdWeek article posted at ED.gov gives a good explanation:


http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2009/07/23/37race.h28.html?tkn=YSUFYIm+MA2jCca4Ty69mm89stWNLqKb4Eu2

[ecstatic]

69. If he said that, then I don't agree with him

All you have to do is ask the students. As a former student, we KNOW when a teacher is good or bad and can be fair in our answers, even when the teacher is strict.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. They need testing for parents and politicians

Lets see some metrics for Senators, and let's see them now. And parents. And Presidents.
This Arnie Duncan character makes me ill.

[Hippo_Tron]

91. Not gonna happen until Americans change their attitudes about education

The way to prevent bad teachers is to pay them enough that it is highly competitive to get a teaching position. That will never happen so long as Americans value education as they currently do. There is nothing the President can do about that.

[Thothmes]

92. Why do you not address your missive to the governor of your state.

They are the folks that have the legal responsibility for the satisfactory opertion of the school systems in their jurisdiciton, not the Federal Government.

[WinkyDink]

96. Did Obama say that? If so, he is DEEPLY uninformed of what education ADMINISTRATORS get. They take

COURSES on TEACHER EVALUATION.
Yes, I'm using caps.
The SOLE REASON "bad teachers" are extant is that LOUSY, LAZY PRINCIPALS will NOT do THEIR jobs.

It takes time and effort to OBSERVE (several times), DOCUMENT, ADVISE, and REVIEW teacher classroom success.

One last point: Those "bad teachers" didn't exactly hire themselves.