Until you have walked a mile in "their" shoes, you can be empathetic,

[Peacetrain]

but there is no way you or I or anyone can know exactly the full ramifications, anothers' life story.

You can be empathetic, but not really truly understand what it is to be a minority racial status in a white majority country.

You can be empathetic,, but not really truly understand what it is to be gay or lesbian if you are straight.

You can be empathetic,, but not really truly understand the fear of tomorrow when you have lost your job, and cannot pay the bills,if you have a job and no one is going hungry.

You can be empathetic,,but not truly understand what it means to be a deaf person in a hearing world, a blind person, someone dealing with mental health issues, have a child, parent or yourself deal with serious illness, when you have insurance and good health.

Religious intolerance, Cultural intolerance.. on and on and on..

We all have a story and a right to be heard, but reality is, some have to travel a much bumpier road.

We can listen, listen with our hearts, and try to be there where that person is for the moment. We can think, before we act, speak, and point fingers.

As someone pointed out the other day, I know I am speaking to the choir in DU, but sometimes even the choir can hit some sour notes.

edit for a spelling error!!

[busymom]

1. good post that applies to

many situations.

It's ummm...empathetic, btw. =)

[Peacetrain]

2. Thank you, its mighty early this AM, and I did not catch it!!

[busymom]

5. It is mighty early! I hope I didn't sound too...

crabby pointing it out. It's a good post!

[cleveramerican]

3. I hear what your saying...but

Its so wrong to assume others had it easy.
I don't have a lot of patience for hearing how tough life has been for you.
I admire people who face life's challenges with perseverance and determination, regardless of circumstance.
We all have different reason to bitch about the raw deal we got,tell somebody else.
Even though you won't believe me, there is no racial component to this outlook.

I don't think this make me a bigot.

[Peacetrain]

4. Missed the whole point of the op completely didn't you..

I do not know if you are a bigot or not.. but assumptions was what my op was about.

[cleveramerican]

7. I got the point, I just think its too easy .

if you walk around as the perpetual victim,
decrying past wrongs, when you should be getting on with it.
Empathy is the last thing you get from me.
not that I don't feel empathy
its just not appropriate in every circumstance.

I think the good and the wise know you do have to rise above it.
Leave the past where it is, do right now.

[JTFrog]

14. Right, the bootstrap system is so much more humane than a support system.

Where have I heard this before?

[cleveramerican]

17. support that encourages self-reliance I 'm fully in favor of.

Support is not always best, when what is needed is some determination not to be defined by others or the past,or your afflictions.
Waiting for the world to perfect these things, waiting until things get easier is a waste of time.

is thats what you mean when you say"bootstrap system"?

[JTFrog]

18. You can empathize with a person and still encourage self-reliance.

Empathy is not pity. It is not encouraging self-pity.

–noun
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self.

em·pa·thy (ěm'pə-thē)
n.

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

As others have pointed out, you have completely missed the point here.

Also, you belittle a life's experiences by trying to make them irrelevant.

[cleveramerican]

19. by that defination empathy is only in your head

"Vicariously experienceing the feelings thoughts and attitudes"
empathy without action is daydreaming

[JTFrog]

20. You're the only one saying anything about "without action" and why you keep feeling the need to

pretend it has to be one or the other is just beyond me.

[cleveramerican]

23. you brought up the "bootstrap"thing

like feeling empathy was enough
you came at me with that.

I feel so bad about this or that
doesn't help you or the ones you feel so bad about.
it just makes you feel better,when you make it about you.

If Empathy is just inside your head its too easy to fake.

[Peacetrain]

24. My friend, you are a circular argument.. Change is not made without

understanding there is a need for change.. ergo.. empathy..But again you missed the entire point of the op.. but that is your choice.

[cleveramerican]

26. Not very empathetic of you.

I'm not one of the ones you deem worthy of your precious empathy?

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. the not-so-cleveramerican cannot admit that empathy is not an action,

otherwise he cannot use it to call Sotomayor an activist judge.

[cleveramerican]

29. keep patting yourself on the back

for all those good thoughts you think.
Who am I stand in your way

If you only dole out empathy to those you approve of? What are you actually doing? I think they call it profiling

[JTFrog]

25. empathic concern is the feeling of compassion or concern for another, the wish

to see them better off or happier.

If that's daydreaming, then you may sayyyyy I'm a dreamer.

[cleveramerican]

31. sounds like your profiling

[JTFrog]

32. Sounds like you can't accept that people don't agree with you.

That's not profiling.

Empathy doesn't mean I have to agree with you. I could empathize with someone who, for instance, never learned compassion because they didn't get enough hugs as a kid and still disagree with their view that compassion and empathy is a bad thing.

[cleveramerican]

34. you should re-read the op

I should try and feel a certain way about a certain person based oh WHAT they are rather than WHO they are?
This is different from profiling... how?

Your right I don't agree with your view that if we all just think good thoughts we'll get back to Kansas.

[JTFrog]

35. I didn't respond to the OP. I responded specifically to your post claiming no empathy from you.

And again, you can't dismiss the fact that there are many factors that make up WHO a person is, including, WHAT a person is and their life experiences. It seems you are the one who wants to dismiss part of the equation.

[cleveramerican]

38. I am not dismissing the fact you are profiling African-Americans

and gays and the handicapped by thinking you KNOW ANYTHING about them before speaking to that person.

The op was about assumptions.
If your empathetic automatically because the person is black or handicapped or gay or a cop, you have just profiled that person.
As well as made some giant assumptions.

[JTFrog]

39. I think you are acting intentionally obtuse.

As I said above, empathy does not imply agreement or bias toward a certain position.

I empathize with your confusion, however I couldn't disagree with you more.

[cleveramerican]

40. I can live with that

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Empathy IS only in your head., Empathy is YOUR psychological

reaction to another person's situation. Your empathy has NOTHING to do with that other person whatsoever. You can have empathy and act on it, or not act on it. The action is a distinct, separate thing.

All that empathy is, is understanding.

[cleveramerican]

30. you got to admit

thats pretty easy to fake.

[busymom]

6. Hi...the point is back there...I think you missed it...

I believe the OP was trying to say that until you have lived someone else's life and known what their struggles are you can't really understand them. This transcends race, fwiw.

[cleveramerican]

8. Assumptions....

go both ways, when two people meet.
The assumption every one had it easier than you is mental poison.

[busymom]

9. I agree...I always try to consider

the other person and their frame of reference when I meet them/work with them. It doesn't mean that I always agree or give them a free pass for bad behavior, but I think putting yourself in someone else's shoes is a good way to be a better person.

[JohnnyLib2]

10. I'm happy to recommend this OP.

:thumbsup:

[pecwae]

11. Good post that applies to everyone

across the board, across the political spectrum, across ethnicity, across gender, across the world. Add in a bit of what another poster is saying on this thread and it would indeed be a perfect world with no barriers to communication, no excuses not to help one another.

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. Unless, of course, you're a white cop

Then you're uniquely qualified to judge every molecule of their existence with perfect pitch and alacrity.

[falconwing]

13. I'm piggybacking this thread

because I don't have enough posts to start my own.
Here's the deal: My family are all Republican, and fairly racist Southerners. In a country club way... nothing too gross or overt, but clearly they are appalled that we have a president who is not a white man...

I love my siblings and try to avoid political discussions. If you are familiar with the writings of Patrick Obrian, I try to observe "Gunroom Rules" with them (i.e., on a long commission in the royal navy of the 1800's, certain topics were tacitly considered off limits in the officers' mess: politics and religion mostly, because if you were stuck for months at a time eating with same group of men, you couldn't afford to be at each other's throats over topics you all held strong and, likely, unwavering opinions.)

I've enacted a sort of Gunroom Rules standard with my siblings at family gatherings...and it works. However, today I got an email from my sister quoting some industrialist about how he fears Obama.

I would like to paste it in here and get any of your ideas as to how it can be countered. It infuriates me, and my temper makes me incapable of rational response. I would love to hear some reasoned responses.
In any event, it will give you a glimpse into the mindset of the country club Republican...

Here it is:

******************************
AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA

Dear President Obama:

You are the thirteenth President under whom I have lived and unlike any of the others, you truly scare me. You scare me because after months of exposure, I know nothing about you.

You scare me because I do not know how you paid for your expensive Ivy League education and your upscale lifestyle and housing with no visible signs of support. You scare me because you did not spend the formative years of youth growing up in America and culturally you are not an American.

You scare me because you have never run a company or met a payroll.

You scare me because you have never had military experience, thus don't understand it at its core.

You scare me because you lack humility and 'class', always blaming others. You scare me because for over half your life you have aligned yourself with radical extremists who hate America and you refuse to publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail.

You scare me because you are a cheerleader for the 'blame America ' crowd and deliver this message abroad.

You scare me because you want to change America to a European style country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector. You scare me because you want to replace our health care system with a government controlled one.

You scare me because you prefer 'wind mills' to responsibly capitalizing on our own vast oil, coal and shale reserves.

You scare me because you want to kill the American capitalist goose that lays the golden egg which provides the highest standard of living in the world.

You scare me because you have begun to use 'extortion' tactics against certain banks and corporations.

You scare me because your own political party shrinks from challenging you on your wild and irresponsible spending proposals.

You scare me because you will not openly listen to or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people.

You scare me because you falsely believe that you are both omnipotent and omniscient.

You scare me because the media gives you a free pass on everything you do.

You scare me because you demonize and want to silence the Limbaughs, Hannitys, O'Relllys and Becks who offer opposing, conservative points of view.

You scare me because you prefer controlling over governing.

Finally, you scare me because if you serve a second term I will probably not feel safe in writing a similar letter in 8 years.

Lou Pritchett

[cleveramerican]

15. We are all scared

We live in scary times, if your not scared you must be blind deaf and dumb.
just make sure the things your scared of are real,and not just shadows, pointed out to you by fools who don't want you to be confident.
Things are messed up sure, but old farts have been saying the world is going to hell since forever.
They were wrong when I was a kid and they're wrong now
We are Fine. We will get though these trying times. We've done it a hundred times before.
Have some faith in your nation and its people, you'll feel better.

[Peacetrain]

16. You have my deepest sympathies.. because it is such an uphill battle

dealing with the kinds of "fear" that email shows. I use the word fear instead of hate, because that is what is at the core of all the Limbaughesqe types of arguments. This is directly from Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage radio shows that people cling to because they fear the change going on now.

Hate is easily dealt with.. You can confront and or leave it if you choose. You have to watch your back at all times, but you know what you are dealing with.


But fear and guilt.. the hardest emotions to overcome. Fear politics is the bread and butter of the right wing. We have been fighting it for as long as I can remember. But we have made great progress. The first thing you have to do, is set boundaries with your siblings. Just be honest, you do not want those kinds of emails. Starting to set boundaries, may give them the freedom to let go of some of that fear.

My guess and experience is that one of the family is much more controlling in these kinds of issues than the others. The rest follow suit out of fear of confrontation with someone who can be irrational. Your courage, may give them courage to step away from that "fear" that is holding them in this state of hate.

Good luck, and know we are here to back you up. Everything worth fighting for has a price.

[falconwing]

21. thanks

for the thoughtful reply. I believe you are right; fear is the common thread of all those points in the quoted email. Refuting them just makes me angry, and it seems pointless trying to change that orientation. Events will have to play out, and I think my best course is to just ask that I not be included in any more group emails. I could have made a lot of those arguments about Bush/Cheney and the last 8 years!

Or I can just quote "Blazing Saddles" (a parable for our times) "Mongo love sherriff Bart!"

[Peacetrain]

22. You are welcome falcon..BTW.. Welcome to the DU!!

I love Blazing Saddles too.. :hi:

[HardWorkingDem]

33. I would declare a huge Rec to this thread except for...

too many people here do not follow what they preach (and I'm not typing that is the case of the OP).

I whole heartedly agree with the concept of the OP, but do not see it here at DU as much as I'd like to. People can debate, disagree or just get madder than hell without spewing venom toward other groups, people or politicians that are not liked, but too often for my taste at DU, certain groups are automatically seen and described as some of their worst members.

And when it comes to certain groups here, some are automatic targets. Take cops. People here comment about cops that would have them labeled in a terrible way if the word "cop" was switched with other identifiers. It would not be tolerated for one second by moderators or other members, but it is when it comes to other groups.


Or take Sarah Palin - sure, she is ripe for ridicule, but the other day I saw a OP with the subject line, "The Bitch is Gone" or something like that.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. there's a lot of truth in what you say-

sadly-

But the truths which Peacetrain stated so beautifully aren't voided simply because people don't behave well.

I've acted like an ass more times than i'd like to admit- but that doesn't alter the fact that i know better.


Failure to live up to an ideal, doesn't make the ideal worthless.

Maybe we can all learn to yield to one another if we keep working at it.

:hi:

The alternative isn't acceptable.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. empathy and compassion are

vital.

Thank you for this beautiful post PT!

:grouphug: