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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:23 PM
Original message
We should end the filibuster in the Senate
There is a well known saying: "As goes California, so goes the nation."
California has been crippled by the need for 2/3rds vote in the legislature for
any tax increases. This reminds me of how the overuse of the filibuster of late by the
Republicans has crippled the Senate. To pass anything, they have to have 60 votes. To
do this, they have to water down everything to the point of uselessness. I say, END the Filibuster.
Government would be much more effective.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd say make them actually filibuster - none of this 'threat' stuff - make 'em do it

Maybe after America sees the opposition do it a dozen times, they'll start voting those that do it unnecessarily out on their butts.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. There isn't such an option.
What's thought of as the old-school "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" or Robert Byrd type filibusters only happen because they actually choose to sit there and filibuster. And that's only done when they so want to make a point that they're willing to halt all other Senate business in their attempt at theatrics or to prevent a bill that would otherwise have the votes to pass.

Basically, the "threat" stuff you're referring to really is the filibuster.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Sorry. You're mistaken. Democrats can force the Republicans to engage in a real filibuster.

In current practice, Senate Rule 22 permits filibusters in which actual continuous floor speeches are not required, although the Senate Majority Leader may require an actual traditional filibuster if he or she so chooses.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. "I suggest the absence of a quorum"
Quorum call ensues. No quorum, no vote, no need to extend debate. It only takes any one Republican at any given time to do it. We'd need 51 of our 60 senators to basically sit in their seats all night to make the Republicans actually filibuster. I should remind you that we have three ill Senators (Byrd, Kennedy, and Johnson) and eight more than are older than 70, and they aren't going to do that if the votes for cloture don't exist anyway.

So I stand by my statement - the old school filibusters only exist if someone really wants to prove a point.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The Democrats have the power to change that.

Unfortunately, the excuse you propose has already been used to justify surrender and inaction by Senate Democrats.

They have the power to change and amend Senate rules anytime they wish .... that's because, believe or not, they have the majority in the Senate and so far they have refused to exert their power in the Senate.

As you correctly point out: " the old school filibusters only exist if someone really wants to prove a point".

So the Democrats don't want to prove a point, that they won the 2008 election and Republicans didn't and that Democrats are determined to get progressive legislation and appointments passed over Republican obstructionism?

Let's hope your wrong on that.

And the Democrats of course are free to use the so-called "nuclear option" which simply means excercising their majority control over the Senate and preventing a small minority (the Republicans) from deciding what legislation passes or fails.

Of course, if you prefer minority Republican rule I suppose we could stand pat!
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. I vociferously argued against the nuclear option when Republicans held it.
And I continue to do so now for the exact same reason - I refuse to subject our nation to the rule of mob. Of course, if you preferred to have abortion rights stripped, ANWR drilled, and Supreme Court Justice Miguel Estrada under the Bush administration, I suppose we could have allowed the nuclear option to be used.

Furthermore, I object to what you refer to as "minority Republican rule". We are not even close to being under that. They don't dictate the agenda, they don't decide which bills get considered, and they don't pass the laws they want. They may block bills, but that is a very, very longstanding practice in the history of our government. It's designed specifically that way to ensure that bills are carefully considered and not hastily adopted. It may be inconvenient for us in the moment, but it's there for a very, very good reason.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I agree. nt
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds good. That'll be 75 votes for a rules change, do you want fries with that? nt
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. No.
I said it when Republicans tried to do it, and I'll say it now - the filibuster is a very important tool that prevents mob tyranny from occuring in this country. We would've been even more fucked than we already are if it didn't exist during the Bush years. I completely and totally disagree with you.

It may not be fast, it may not be convenient, but the filibuster system is absolutely vital to our democracy.
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you for saying it!
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. It's a made up rule with zero constitutional basis. I may be wrong, but I can't recall one
time the Dems successfully filibustered anything during the bush years.

Can you?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Look below
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. thanks. I like to learn things I don't know.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Majorities always advocate this
I'm not surprised to see this suggested at DU, now that the dems are the majority party. The situation in California is a tad different than the Senate, there is no way to force a way past the 2/3rds requirement. In the senate, funding is exempt from filibusters.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes, end the filibuster because the Dems will be in power forever. What, maybe not?
No, no matter how bleak it may look for Republicans at the moment they will be back. It wasn't so long ago that Republicans thought they would hold power indefinitely. If Democrats end the filibuster they will live to regret it and so will we. The filibuster is not the quaint and noble "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" action that we envision. It is a tool and like all tools it can be used rightly or wrongly--but which is which and how it is viewed depends on your politics. Keep it, use it, and force it to be used.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fan of drilling in anwr, flag desecration laws, , Michael Estrada, etc.?
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 12:54 PM by onenote
Some of the things the Democrats successfully filibustered when they were in the minority.

YOu don't like it now. But you'd really miss it down the road. Really.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not to mention that the threat of a filibuster prevented others from getting started. (nt)
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. The Democrats didn't filibuster the big stuff like bankruptcy "reform", the tax cuts, Supreme Court
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 04:14 PM by Better Believe It
appointments, the Iraq invasion, the war budget, the Patriot Act, etc.,

In fact, George W. Bush actually got a lot of Democrat votes for his right-wing legislation and appointments!

Couldn't find any real Democratic filibusters, not even filibuster threats, on the really big and most important stuff!

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. When the Repos threatened the nuclear option, the Dems quit filibustering.
Anwar was a big thing though.

flag amendment? Unconstitutional anyway and how many people actually burn flags, except for the Boy Scouts and the VFW when they worn out or they have touched the ground.

I think the Dems should have let it pass without a filibuster and then embarrassed the Repos over flag protocol.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Some facts: parental notification,anwr, bolton, five appellate judges
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 10:34 PM by onenote
You might check your facts. The Democrats successfully blocked cloture on Josh Bolton's nomination a month after the Gang of 14 deal. MOreover, of the ten judicial nominees filibustered before the gang of 14, five never were confirmed. And the parental notification, same sex marriage ban, and ANWR bills were among the successful filibuster by the Democrats after the gang of 14 deal in may 2005.



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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sure: We got two of the most right-wing Supreme Court justices in history. Another victory!
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 11:02 PM by Better Believe It
Sure showed them!

Whhoooooppppeeeee!

Please quit making excuses.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Stop dreaming. There never was a snowball's chance in hell that we'd filibuster roberts.
And for that matter, stop pretending that your entire argument was about supreme court justices and that you didn't claim that the Democrats failed to filibuster anything of significance after the threat of the nuclear option was raised. I've already shown that Democrats did successfully block cloture on very important pieces of legislation (unless of course you don't think a same sex marriage ban, or parental notification, or drilling in ANWR are important). The Democrats even blocked cloture on the Patriot Act extension in late 2005 (after the gang of 14 deal) and while that extension ultimately passed, some changes were made in the bill -- not enough for my liking, but what passed still was not as bad as what it would've been had the Democrats not been able to "filibuster" it. As for Roberts, the threat of the nuclear option didn't prevent his nomination from being filibustered. Hell, you could have taken the seven Democrats on the gang of 14 and locked them in a room and there was still more than enough support for Roberts from Democrats to easily defeat cloture -- so it wasn't even tried. The situation with ALito was a bit different, since the number of votes against his confirmation (42) was more than enough to block cloture, but only 25 voted against cloture. Was it the fear of the nuclear option? I doubt it. After all, 48 votes were cast against Clarence Thomas long before the term nuclear option became part of the culture, but no effort was made to block his nomination through the filibuster/cloture process.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Especially when the Democrats promised they would not filibuster right-wing appointments ....
Edited on Wed Jul-29-09 08:30 AM by Better Believe It

to the Supreme Court except in the most extreme circumstances. For example, if George W. Bush had nominated a Grand Dragon on the Ku Klux Klan to the Supreme Court.

They might have filibustered against that!

:)

Rather courageous, don't you agree?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Thanks for your correction. I went off memory, and that's always suspect
:)
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. Let's end all of this nonsense about bogus Republican filibusters!
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 03:02 PM by Better Believe It
All filibusters end. Make them get their cots out on the Senate floor, no phone in phantom filibusters should be allowed by the Democratic party. In current practice, Senate Rule 22 permits filibusters in which actual continuous floor speeches are not required, although the Senate Majority Leader may require an actual traditional filibuster if he or she so chooses.

And of course, we can always keep the so-called "nuclear option" in our back pocket ready to deploy if necessary to stop any filibuster dead in its tracks!

One might think that only Republicans are permitted to use that option to hear some people whine. Remember how the mere Republican threat of using the "nuclear option" caused a state of hysterical panic among Senate Democrats in 2005. They voluntarily gave up the right to filibusters Bush's Supreme Court picks and in return for that surrender they got two right-wing Supreme Court justices!

If Democrats are really that eager to wave the white towel of surrender at the slightest sign of opposition, how do they expect to prevent the Republicans from regaining control of the House, Senate and White House in 2012? That's exactly what will happen if the Democrats can't produce with their big majority in both houses of Congress and control of the White House.


--------------------------------------------

Time to End the Filibuster By Making It Real
By Robert Schlesinger, Thomas Jefferson Street blog
U.S. News and World Report
March 2, 2009

Is it time to eliminate the filibuster? Definitely not. But David RePass, an emeritus professor of political science at the University of Connecticut, has an interesting suggestion in today's New York Times along those lines but distinctly short of it.

RePass bemoans the fact that the filibuster has given the senate's minority party a functional veto over legislation in that chamber by requiring at least 60 votes to pass something. But, he points out, real filibusters never actually happen these days: the modern "filibuster" is more threat than action.

Which is where RePass' solution comes in:

... fixing the problem would not require any change in Senate rules. The phantom filibuster could be done away with overnight by the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid. All he needs to do is call the minority's bluff by bringing a challenged measure to the floor and letting the debate begin.

In other words, don't get rid of the filibuster. Instead make it real: Force Republicans to actually get up and tie up Senate business and explain why they're doing it. If the GOP (or the Democrats, in time, when they are back in the minority), want to filibuster they should be able to—but they should have to actually do it.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/03/02/-time-to-end-the-filibuster-by-making-it-real.html

----------------------

The tyranny of the minority
By PETER FENN
March 19, 2009
Peter Fenn is founder of Fenn & King Communications, a Democratic political consulting firm. He worked on the Senate Intelligence Committee and was a top aide to then-Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho).


President Barack Obama has it right — there is a lot to change about Washington. The problem is, not much will get changed unless we confront the runaway filibuster in the U.S. Senate.

I remember, as a Senate page in the 1960s, the great debates on civil rights that would go on night after night. The rows of uncomfortable beds rolled in made Army barracks look luxurious. As a new Senate staffer in 1975, I also remember the heated debate over the effort to change the vote on cloture from two-thirds to three-fifths, or 60 votes, to shut off debate. Most of us thought that was a good thing, changing the Senate’s Rule 22, which was adopted in 1917. We believed it would be easier to stop obstructionists from paralyzing the Senate.

Thirty years later, boy, were we wrong. I joke that you need 60 votes to rename a post office. The “phantom filibuster,” as University of Connecticut professor emeritus David RePass calls the mere threat of a filibuster, has tied the Senate in knots.

There are really three alternatives. The first is to confront the filibuster as it was intended: to demand continuous debate on an issue, causing a major confrontation with the minority. This would tie up the Senate and provoke a political standoff. The second is to invoke the so-called nuclear option and end the filibuster altogether. The third is to further lower the number of votes needed — say, to 55 instead of 60. This option still leaves the Senate with the problem of a continuous supermajority to pass legislation.

As long as one party or faction feels compelled to constantly require 60 votes to pass anything, the short-term option may be to call its bluff and bring in those lovely cots to sleep in just off the Senate floor. The lawmakers can all look like Jimmy Stewart in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.” Or they can look like obstructionists who are impeding real change for the nation.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20178.html

-----------------------------------

Op-Ed Contributor
Make My Filibuster
By DAVID E. RePASS
David E. RePass is an emeritus professor of political science at the University of Connecticut.
New York Times
March 1, 2009


PRESIDENT OBAMA has decided to spend his political capital now, pushing through an ambitious agenda of health care, education and energy reform. If the Democrats in the Senate want to help him accomplish his goals, they should work to eliminate one of the greatest threats facing effective governance — the phantom filibuster.

Most Americans think of the filibuster (if they think of it at all) through the lens of “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” — a minority in the Senate deeply disagrees with a measure, takes to the floor and argues passionately round the clock to prevent it from passing. These filibusters are relatively rare because they take so much time and effort.

In recent years, however, the Senate has become so averse to the filibuster that if fewer than 60 senators support a controversial measure, it usually won’t come up for discussion at all. The mere threat of a filibuster has become a filibuster, a phantom filibuster. Instead of needing a sufficient number of dedicated senators to hold the floor for many days and nights, all it takes to block movement on a bill is for 41 senators to raise their little fingers in opposition.

The phantom filibuster is clearly unconstitutional. The founders required a supermajority in only five situations: veto overrides and votes on treaties, constitutional amendments, convictions of impeached officials and expulsions of members of the House or Senate. The Constitution certainly does not call for a supermajority before debate on any controversial measure can begin.

And fixing the problem would not require any change in Senate rules. The phantom filibuster could be done away with overnight by the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid. All he needs to do is call the minority’s bluff by bringing a challenged measure to the floor and letting the debate begin.

Some argue that this procedure would mire the Senate in one filibuster after another. But avoiding delay by not bringing measures to the floor makes no sense. For fear of not getting much done, almost nothing is done at all. And what does get done is so compromised and toothless to make it filibuster-proof that it fails to solve problems.

It also happens to make a great deal of political sense for the Democrats to force the Republicans to take the Senate floor and show voters that they oppose Mr. Obama’s initiatives. If the Republicans want to publicly block a popular president who is trying to resolve major problems, let them do it. And if the Republicans feel that the basic principles they believe in are worth standing up for, let them exercise their minority rights with an actual filibuster.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/opinion/02RePass.html?_r=1

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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Thank you, Better Believe It
The way it stands now, nothing gets done effectively if at all.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. More on those alleged Republican filibusters

Sixty Votes: An Unnecessary Illusion

Democrats like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid have been out of power for so long, that they don’t know how to use it after voters hand it to them. When Republicans had 55 votes in the Senate, Democrats claimed to be powerless in blocking the confirmation of ultra-conservatives John Roberts and Samuel Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court. After Democrats took back the Senate in 2006, Reid explained that their 51-49 edge was the “narrowest of majorities” – and frustrated by Joe Lieberman’s votes on Iraq. It is true that Democrats needed more seats to be effective, but Reid insisted that a wider majority was not enough. Only a 60-vote majority, he said, was essential to implementing change.

Why sixty votes? Because that’s how many Senators are needed to end debate, and to bring legislation up to a vote. But the Senate only needs a “cloture” vote when a Party chooses to filibuster a bill – which means talking for hours on end, and refusing to end debate. The filibuster hearkens back to the U.S. Senate of the 1950’s and 60’s, when Southern segregationists killed civil rights legislation. Reid and other Democrats have complained that since they took control, Republicans have made the largest number of filibuster threats in history. Therefore, they argued, only 60 votes would break the deadlock.

The important word here is “threats.” Republicans have threatened to filibuster most legislation, but they have not done the marathon sessions we saw in the civil rights era. That’s because they never have to. Harry Reid is the first Senate Majority Leader in history to count any preemptive threat as a “filibuster” that kills legislation, unless we get sixty Senators to invoke cloture. It’s not like Democrats are powerless if Reid called the Republicans’ bluff on their threats. A Senator can only speak twice during a filibuster, so the majority just has to remain equally committed. Eventually, Republicans will run out of speakers.

http://www.beyondchron.org/articles/Senate_Democrats_Have_60_Votes_Now_What__7104.html
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. No just end Democratic cowardice
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm thinking we should take a lot of power away from the Senate entirely.
They've become this country's House of Lords, they're very insulated from the people they're supposed to represent, and they don't serve the people very well at all.

If you ask me, I think this country would run just fine with the vast majority of power vested with the House of Representatives, and the Senate relegated to ceremonial roles.

The House tracks far better with the will of the people than the Senate ever did.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Couldn't agree with you more. Nearly all good legislation I want
to see passed, cannot be, because of the Senate.

It costs much, much more money to run and win a Senate campaign than a House of Reps campaign. Hence, you end up with a bunch of people sold out to their big money, big business contributors.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone- and I mean ANYONE who supports the routine use of the filibuster is undemocratic
Edited on Wed Jul-29-09 02:10 AM by depakid
and an advocate for dysfunctional government. Period, end of story. When have less than 20% of the country dictating policy for the rest- you're a nation destined for repeated failure and decline.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
29. I don't agree
the filibuster is a necessary check and balance on majority power that we were grateful for when we were in the minority.

However, what does need to be gotten rid of is Harry Reid's incompetent leadership. By saying that legislation requires 60 votes he is giving the republicans cost-free filibusters. Instead of the story being about Republicans actively obstructing legislation, it turns into a Democratic need to obtain the "necessary" 60 votes. Under these circumstances, why WOULDN'T they filibuster everything? What political cost is there to them?

Also there should be a change to the Senate rules, suspending quorum rules after an unsuccesful cloture vote so that filibusterers have to actually filibuster.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
33. force them to actually speak during t he filibuster
no more administrative filibusters.
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