Jesus was a liberal, murdered by conservatives

[Sugarcoated]

Best bumper sticker ever

[HopeOverFear]

1. Yep

[HughMoran]

2. Can't argue with that logic

Print it up.

[Sugarcoated]

4. Absolutely

if the conservative is a real Christian, that is.

[Hissyspit]

3. Jesus was a humanitarian, murdered by authoritarians.

Alternate version.

[LWolf]

121. I like this one. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. one word change --suggestion

Jesus was a Liberal, Crucified by Conservatives

[DesertRat]

6. I like it! n/t

[Cha]

65. Yes, it flows..and

now "conservatives" use "Jesus" to cover their lies. It just never ends.

[wroberts189]

7. And they have been screwing us and the entire world ever since. Amen nt

[PurityOfEssence]

8. He was doin' JUST fine 'til he messed with Religion Incorporated

He'd have lived to a ripe old age as a charming cult leader with a sweet message and a nice bunch of followers, but once he messed with the big boys' hustle and turned over the moneychanger's tables, he was dead in a couple of days.

[wroberts189]

83. Yep ..but that one brave act went down in history as a lesson for us all.

We did not listen.

[niceypoo]

9. Jesus invented socialism: Fish sandwich anyone??

[Chulanowa]

10. The McFish is socialist?

Somehow I imagined that socialism would taste better, and be a little less, you know, square.

[wroberts189]

13. I admit I get Mcfish tummy if I eat too many ..but Jesus was into fish..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1204965/explanation_of_the_parables_of_jesus.html?cat=34

[moonbatmax]

92. Ironically...

...the McFish (ehr, Fillet-o-Fish?) was introduced to coax Catholics into McDonald's during Lent.

Or so I've read.

[wroberts189]

12. I'll have mine with chedder cheese no tarter please. nt

[704wipes]

46. I don't understand putting cheese on fish

and never will...

[wroberts189]

81. cheddar is best ... it really does taste delicious. Been on Mc D's menu forever but you can make ..

better ones at home.

[Oregone]

11. Jesus was a schizophrenic, murdered by sociopaths

But ya know, any group can claim him if they parse thoroughly enough

[wroberts189]

14. A schizophrenic.. a man who would dominate history as we know it?

Nothing against atheist but could you imagine such a man in this age ..never mind two thousand odd years ago?

[Oregone]

15. There are a good deal of nutty nutballs walking around here and now,

with nuttier nutzoids following them. Hell, there was even a guy that made his whole congregation take cyanide after his big socialistic vision turned sour by his totalitarianism tendencies.

There is nothing unique about loonies, or even loonies with followers. Benevolent loonies are even a dime a dozen

Yeah, they chose to run with him (hence, dominate history), to establish a church--no effort of his own.

[Cetacea]

20. Discriminate much? n/t

[wroberts189]

23. His message was peace for all mankind ..not suicide by comet.

I am not even christian... I believe he was real as the Buddha or Allah.


Trying to tell us something ...

[Rebubula]

26. Allah

Allah is God....he\she\it was not a real person...or real for that matter.

I think that you may be thinking of Muhammad, the father of Islam.

Jesus was real, but he was not the son of god....just a very convincing sales man that created the greatest business plan the world has ever seen.

[wroberts189]

35. Yes you are correct I miswrote that. nt

[daggahead]

73. No offense, but ...

Was Jesus real? Seriously.

[wroberts189]

80. You have to judge for yourself...

Look at some of his statements that have survived biblical censoring. He was beyond liberal ..and being that way 2k years ago does not make sense unless he did indeed have something divine inside.

Like other messiahs of other religions they came to introduce new ideas into the system.. ones that badly needed it. I think he is coming back soon because soon we will be there again ...but he will not be known as who he was and he will undermine all religions with a new philosophy that transends them all.


imho

[PassingFair]

139. You have to "judge for yourself" because there is absolutely no evidence that he ever existed.

None.

[Oregone]

31. "Trying to tell us something"?

You make it sound like he said something incredibly unique or profound. This is not so. Examine his actual quotes. A lot of what was said (if he existed) was just an expansion on Jewish theology mixed in with some social rebellion. He isn't even the reason for his own success. They ran with him far after his death.

Why have you forsaken me?

[wroberts189]

36. "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

For his time that was pretty profound.. many other statements as well, but I believe the church rewrote most of the bible in the past 2k years cutting out a lot they did not like.

[stlsaxman]

44. Reminds me of my favorite joke-

Jesus walks into the public square and finds a group of folk surrounding a prostitute (stop reading if you've read this..). Learning that this woman is to be stoned to death he makes his way to the middle of the fray and declares- "Just one cotton-pickin' minute here- let he who is without sin cast the first stone!". All are stunned to silence, glancing at each other when an old woman works her way up to the prostitute and she's hauling a HUGE boulder... WHAM!

Jesus, shaking his bowed head in disbelief looks up and says "Y'know, Mom- sometimes you really piss me off!"

[HillWilliam]

66. Which can only lead to a worse atrocity

That can only be told with a heavy Yiddish accent...

Mary, ze mother of Jesus vas in ze mahketplace und she met Mary Magdelene. Mary Magdlene sez to Mary ze mother of Jesus, "Nu, von voman to another, I haff to tell you somsink. Zere are zese rumors. Zey say your boy is runningk around in ze voods, vearink an almond seqvined caftan, hangink out on ze veekends mit zose tsvelf buff beach-boy friends of his. Some people say he iss... he iss..." (whispering) "a feygeleh".

Mary the mother of Jesus damnear faints. She rushes home and catches her son, grabs him by the scruff of the robe, drags him into his room, shuts the door, sits him down on the bed, sits down beside him, collects herself and begins to speak.

"My zon, my zon, you must listen to me. I met Mary Magdelene in ze mahketplace today. She tells me zere are zese rumors goingk around about you. She says you are flitting aroundt in ze voods, vearingk an almond seqvined caftan. You're hangingk around on ze veekends mit zose tsvelf buff beach-boy friends of yours. Zey say..." (she begins to sob) "... you're a... you're... a a feygeleh!!"

She drops to her knees, grabs his hands, looks into his eyes as only a mother can and begins to implore, "now here is vat you muss do. Settle down! Marry a nyse-a Jewish girl. Haff a family. Give me some grandchildren! Zese rumors, zey vill stop."

Jesus jumps to his feet, backs up three steps, puts his hands on his hips and exclaims, "MAAAARRRY! I'd rather be ca-RU-thified!!!"



I know. I'm goin' on a rocket. :D

[stlsaxman]

114. You most certainly are!

going on a rocket straight to....





















:evilgrin: - "Welcome, HillWilliam!"

[wroberts189]

78. hehe :) very funny ..good thing his mom was not there. nt

[stlsaxman]

97. how do you know she wasn't there? maybe she was at a kiosk getting in the shopping...

this is funny because his mom was without sin. she was the only one there who could kill the whore. just like in Monty Pythons Holy Grail (a film document of equal merit), if King Arthur hadn't intervened the witch would have been burned in a timely manner. as it is- Arthur merely delayed the witches death and prolonged her emotional misery by interrupting the proceedings in a vane attempt at being "helpful".

in much the same manner, if Jesus' mother HAD killed the prostitute, she would have done her son and, in turn, the group of his followers a grave disservice by denying him his first disciple, writer of the first gospel, love of his life and mother of his children- Mary Magdalen. it surely would have pissed me off if my mom did that to me...

on second thought, maybe she should have killed her- that might have saved future generations all the pain, fear, anguish, torment and mass-murder inflicted over millennia by those who would misconstrue this character of legend's simple message "Love One Another" for their selfish political gain.

but, Christ knows- it's just a joke, right?

[wroberts189]

108. Was she considered without "sin"? I knew she was a virgin but never heard that until now. nt

[wroberts189]

79. I would add that throwing a fit at the money changers...

That took balls of steel.

Well.. if we only had a man like that now.

If the story is true...

[Cetacea]

32. Right. A schizophrenic preaching impuse control.

Sounds to me like he had a bit more frontal cortex than the average person. Even by todays standards.

[wroberts189]

86. Damn ..you nailed that. Of course today he would be locked up and on meds. nt

[PatSeg]

34. It's pretty hard to analyze someone who lived

2000 years ago, if in fact he really did exist. It is the teachings that have endured and I don't find anything schizophrenic about those, even though many of his followers could be tagged "loonies".

[twitomy]

50. He did exist..read Josephus

I find it hard to beleive 12 disciples would abandoned family, possessions, and ultimately their lives for a figment of their collective imagnination. Also note they never used their new religion as a means to aquire wealth and power like another so-called prophet who shall remain nameless. Instead they literally laid down their lives for it. Who would do that for a lie?

I do recall in the Bible how Jesus asked us indivdaully to take care of each other, to share out
of love..Dont recall him imploring Caeser to do it.

[PatSeg]

60. Good point

I think what is important, is that followers focus on the "teachings" not so much the person who brought the truth. Sadly, many self identified "Christians" just don't get it. I though Jesus was very clear about the poor and sick, as well judgment of others. Some people listen but don't really hear.

[twitomy]

69. Yep, if more Christians actually were Christ-like.

We would have a much better world..

[onager]

67. I have read Josephus. So what? Long-winded post ensues...

As even most Xian theologians admit, the (in)famous Testimonium Flavinium was most likely inserted much later and NOT written by Flavius Josephus.

e.g., my copy of Josephus' Collected Works was published by Fuller Theological Seminary. In the Foreword, it states that the mention of Jesus was probably a much later insertion. Ditto for Michael Grant, in his book The Ancient Historians. And I have even seen Grant called a "Xian historian," though his writing is neutral and unbiased, at least what I've read.

Most likely culprit who edited Josephus: the church historian Eusebius, probably in the Fourth Century.

From the CSI point of view, Eusebius had both motive and opportunity. Motive: he said it was perfectly OK to lie, if lying helped spread Xianity. Opportunity: Eusebius was in charge of translating ancient texts.

Evidence: nobody mentioned the Testimonium Flavinium until AFTER the Fourth Century CE. Earlier "fathers of the Church," such as Tertullian and Justin Martyr, had certainly read Josephus and often quoted him. It's just not believable that they would have somehow missed such a huge reference to Jesus H. Christ and not commented on it.

More evidence: Flavius Josephus lived as a Pharisaic Jew from the age of 19, and died in Rome still a member of that sect. The Testimonium all but comes right out and claims Jesus was the Messiah. If Josephus had put that in writing, he would have no longer even been considered Jewish - let alone a Pharisee.

The Jewish Encylopedia warns that Josephus' writings are "filled with self-serving distortions." Which is an understatement sort of like saying that G.W. Bush occasionally uttered an untruth.

Depending on where you open his writings, Josephus was either a general commanding rebel Jewish forces, or a sort of special peace emissary shuttling between the Romans and the Jews. Ultimately, he comes across as a First-Century Benedict Arnold - surrendering the critical fortress of Jotapota to the Romans, then ass-kissing his way into favor with Vespasian.

Having said all that, one thing we can't usually accuse Josephus of is bad writing. Even today his vivid descriptions of the siege of Jerusalem just JUMP off the page - religious fanatics yammering on street corners, totally untrained boys marching off to fight the world's most powerful army, women and children scrambling for shelter.

Which is another reason that Testimonium looks hinky. It appears from out of nowhere, totally out of context. In fact, jammed in between an account of Pontius Pilate calling out the Riot Police about a water pipe, and some juicy gossip about Jews in Rome visiting the Temple of Isis.

So before you loftily tell the rest of us to "read Josephus," I suggest you take your own advice.

[twitomy]

71. Are you asking me to read Josephus or

the Critcisms of Josephus?

As I stated before, hard to beleive 12 would give all, including crucifixion, for a lie.

[stlsaxman]

98. "another so-called prophet who shall remain nameless"... you mean Obama, right?

[twitomy]

111. No, actually had

Mohammed in mind..created a religion and used it to acquire wealth, power, and a harem..

Not too bad as scam's go...

[stlsaxman]

112. Well why didn't you say so!?!! Bet you just can't wait to be raptured, can ya?

Don't worry- when the Holy War begins Jesus will save you. It says in the Bible!

[twitomy]

116. The Rapture is un-Biblical..

invented in the 1800's by the Darbyites.

[stlsaxman]

117. So is modern christianity..

invented in the 1940's by Adolf Hitler.

[twitomy]

120. okkkaaaayyy...

:crazy:

[Sugarcoated]

123. Exqueeze me?

[Fendius]

106. There is still no "hard evidence" that he existed

Historians living during that time said what about him?? Nuttin..

[twitomy]

118. True, no hard evidence....

and that is becasue the Historians did what you said...Said nothing. Why? Jesus was a nobody in a backwater Roman province had zero political/military impact in the secular world during his life that would get the attention of the historians to his existance. He wasnt even about politics. He only planted the seeds that his disciples ran with, and they are the ones who "made a name for themselves" so to speak.

[Fendius]

124. Oh come on!!

I dont doubt the integrity of your reply, but you have nooooooooooo proof of even that either... I can honestly (among millions) say that there is so much more proof against his existence than there is for it. With that, I don't know, and neither do you.. Belief is another word for NOT KNOWING, and rationality seems to point toward him never existing.. Historians aside, no one raises from the dead friend.. Its illogical, mythological, and full of holes.. No one does. Not even the hundreds of gods before him that had the same birthday, virgin mother, 12 disciples, and so on.. This is humans creating something because they are scared of dying.. Its not rocket science..

[twitomy]

125. All I am offering is

a reasonable explanation of why there is no *evidence* that Jesus existed. And that reason is by all
accounts of his disciples, he was a simple peon. As were %99.9999999999 percent of the people who ever lived. Think about it, where is the individual (not collective) evidence that %99.99999999 percent of the people who lived actaully existed? Its not simply not there.. The only evidence that this simple nobody ever lived is the affadavits of at a minimum 12 his followers. Followers who
willingly died for acknowleding him and his teachings. That is pretty strong evidence to back up
the existance of a peon like Jesus who would otherwise been a forgotten nobody.


And for those who do not want to acknowledge the testimony from the disciples to only his existance, yet alone his divinity, I wonder why..I mean it is pretty common for people here
to lap up any "testimony" if it serves their purpose. Take for instance the Sibel Edmonds
article. She said Bin Laden worked for the US up to 9/11. Thats her testimony, not under oath, not under pain of death, with no hard evidence to back it up, and yet it gets lapped up like a thirsty
dog.

[Fendius]

126. no

These are stories taken from literally hundreds of religions.. The 12 Disciples is in almost all of them.. And no one writes about him for 70-100 years? Even in "those" times, allowing ourselves to consider how they lived, I still think the story is laughable at best.. Its plagiarism and complete hypocrisy are so evident that I find the Santa Claus story more realistic.. No offense intended at all. Seriously, I just feel that people are "trying" sooooo damn hard to want to believe this story when deep down its a bunch of bull..:shrug:

[Sugarcoated]

127. It's not about plagarism, it was much more about desecration

The "packagers" of the bible took the writings and added and enhanced, blended-in myth and pagan practices and celebrations. If you look at history with an open mind, it's not necessarily a done deal that he was myth. In fact, not even close. I researched it as a non-religious person who strongly leaned toward the 'Jesus as myth' theory, I believed that till I really looked into it. I think it's much more likely he existed. His followers writings were changed, added to, things deleted, to suit powerful and political agendas. Just for one instance, the virgin birth stuff an addition.

[Fendius]

129. ok

Can i ask you a question? Seriously, Do you think your biased toward the evidence "because" you now believe? Simple enough, I think I am looking to either know, or be "proven" wrong. But as a human being on the planet earth, it is nowadays (maybe because some of us have the luxury of knowledge) becoming obvious that the story doesn't hold water, and neither does the evidence. It really can be as simple as, Is there a big invisible man in the sky? This is what children stories amount to.. Im being dead serious. We don't need gods to do good or be happy. We need to find it from each other and within ourselves. Religion becomes so personal that it almost rules out reason and logic because it asks you simply to believe. Well belief doesn't get things done, and you know as much as me, or anyone else on this planet if there is a god. None of us do, no one has mental superpowers that let them talk to a supposed god. So why push or even waste precious life perpetuating the fear of death, and the obvious means of "having" to have a deity help you through rough times.. Hey, if you have a rough time with anything in your life, [e-mail]... Thats me, write me, ask anything and i would love to be there for you. I just see the obvious cracks in belief when you look at humans existence and history. We needed it in the past, but questions have been answered.. The sun is not a god, We are finally realizing gods were created out of fear of death and not knowing so much...

[Sugarcoated]

131. It's not about "is there a God"

it's about history and what's true, or as close to being true as we can get from what's left behind. I don't blindly believe anything. The gist of my former post is that the 'Jesus is myth' theory doesn't hold up as well as some think.

I don't know whether God exists or not, at least the 'man with a beard in the sky' God, but I have evolved enough to realize there may be more than just what can see wiggling under a microscope.

[Fendius]

132. Agreed

I went off on a tangent and this "is" about A man actually living or not. The more than meets the eye idea is understandable.. Though if we are talking about evidence, i'll trust a person and said microscope before I trust someone with a very very tainted story..

[twitomy]

128. only problem is there is ample evidence

that many, if not all, the 12 disciples did exist..The fact that they spread out and started churches throughout hte known world that exist to this day alone is testament to it.
The actions of these disciples do not point to a scam as they gained nothing worldly and wanted nothing worldly for their efforts; in fact they died for it. Who would be willing do die for a known lie? So to me it points to Jesus in fact existing. Once one concludes he did exist, you have to answer,who was he? But thats another whole thread :)

[Fendius]

130. Your stating

that we know of "ample" evidence that the 12 disciples were alive, and well known about? This for certain i have not seen. And are you aware that these other gods who were praised waaaaay before jesus had 12 desciples as well? This I have found and its detailed.. The big picture of this is that this story has been done before, and it seems more obvious to me man would capitalize on this and answer the questions everyone needed answered back then.. No, no burning bush, no talking snake, no one dies and comes back to life, and the disciples, the "evidence" is tied into one group of researchers.. The ones promoting those hilarious books. This is clearly at this point in our evolution of thought, becoming perfectly obvious.. Gods have come and gone, but we are all still here and need to get off that ideology or else we wont do anything worthy while we live.

[twitomy]

134. None are so blind as those..

...who do not wish to see. Just because other religions had 12 of something doesnt prove anything.
Jesus probably picked 12 as representative of the 12 tribes of Isreal. The apostles certainly did exist; they started underground Church communities that popped up all around the known world.
How did this happen so quickly if not for a group of dispersed followers like the disciples? The Church certainbly wasnt created by the Romans, as early Christians were persecuted until Constantine "legalized" it. Those whom the disciples laid hands on did exist and write about them: Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch to name a couple. The writings of the early Church Fathers talk of the apostles and successors...To say this all a complete fabrication, That Iranaues, Justin Martyr were all a bunch of deluded liars might be believable if in fact the Church failed. Or now you
going to claim that these people didnt exist either? Fact is there is a line of apostolic succession
from the apostles to today.

Pointing to other religions who may share similar characteristics, )like beleif in a God) does not prove a scam. Who started the phoney church? What was the plan, what was the motive?

Here is a link that talks of the extra-biblical writings pertaining to the apostles:
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/history-of-the-apostles-faq.htm

I have yet to come across any ancient writings that talk about the non-existence of the apostles

[Fendius]

135. Lovely...

I've worked all night and now I drink wine, Don't have intentions of disrespecting you so I'll get back at ya,) But "god" how i love a religious conversation.. The people that avoid this lack an understanding that all of us learn from each other.. So until then, a la salud...

[Pat Riot]

22. why yes I could imagine ... nt

[wroberts189]

24. Then imagine something even better ... I believe the guy was real

and I do not go to church

[FatDave]

16. What evidence do you have that He was schizophrenic?

I have trouble finding evidence that he existed at all.

[Oregone]

17. Well, he talked to an invisible entity often and relayed messages

He thought he had magic to cure people. He was also a social recluse (spent time alone in a desert). Something was not right in his head

"I have trouble finding evidence that he existed at all."

Well, I was operating in the bible context, though not endorsing its fundamental truth

[AllentownJake]

21. Your entitled to your opinion

Crazy people change the world. Sane people stay at home and out of trouble to raise their kids making the least amount of noise possible.

[wroberts189]

25. We are all talking 2k plus/minus years ago..this needs to be kept in mind. nt

[JuniperLea]

56. I know a schizophrenic who does exactly the same thing!

Weird.

[musicblind]

109. You are a bigot against Christianity

Just like many Christians are bigoted against atheists.

I find that sad.

[Odin2005]

28. If you talk to God you are religious. If God talks to you are are Schizophrenic.

[Cetacea]

33. And if you preach peace and equality you get wacked. Nothing's changed.

[Aragorn]

75. close

manic-depressive with grandiose delusions, etc - often misdiagnosed as schizophrenic though.

Plenty of present-day high-functioning manics too.

[Critters2]

18. Jesus was a Giradian scapegoat, murdered by a Girardian crowd,

in the midst of a mimetic crisis. He was killed because he challenged the sacrificial system. Any group in power--conservative or liberal--would have killed someone so effectively challenging the violence which kept them in power. Read Rene Girard's _Violence and the Sacred_, or _The Scapegoat_.

[grantcart]

19. Please see Schweitzer, The Quest for the Historical Jesus

[Historic NY]

27. shouldn't it be Status Quo Conservatives?

[harun]

29. Are there any other kind these days?

[Historic NY]

39. also known as SOS Repukes...

same old sh-t.

[Umbral]

30. Jesus is a fiction, created by autocrats. nt

[Uncle Joe]

37. Not just murdered, he was tortured first, if Cheney had been around,

they would have water boarded him.

His days were numbered when he threw the money changers out of the Temple, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Today, our money changers have taken over the American Peoples' Temple; that being the Capital, money is speech, "In God we Trust" in on the money, bribery is legal if they call it a campaign contribution and profits for "health" insurance corporations take precedence over the peoples' health. I believe this is what Jesus was pissed off about in his day; same play different actors.

[RobertSeattle]

40. "Jesus received enhanced interrogation techniques for your sins"

[Duncan]

53. That is a good bumper sticker too.

I'm an atheist (in the sense of not believing in god, not in the sense of believing in not god) but its always seemed to me that if "Jesus Christ our Lord suffers for our sins"(TM), we ought to take pity on him and stop believing in him so that we can all start suffering for our own sins, the poor sap.

[anonymous171]

38. K&R nt

[Sugarcoated]

41. I didn't know this would turn into a debate on Jesus' existence.

The bumper sticker exists already, btw, and I love it, not only for the truth of it, but that it would infuriate the fake Christians on the right. Truth hurts sometimes.

[wroberts189]

85. Me neither and being 2k+ years ago its not like its an easy debate either. nt

[Dinger]

42. K & R. I've Got One That Says:

Yeah, Right, Like Jesus Was A republican And Owned A Gun

[Sugarcoated]

43. Republican's hate it when you point out

how non-Jesus-like their lives are. They actually are followers of the religion of conservati$m/capitali$m.

[Chisox08]

45. They follow the teachings of Supply Side Jesus

Not Jesus of the Bible. Because if they did we would have Universal Health care, equality for all and we would be working for peace instead fighting 2 wars.

[bsd13]

48. The Jesus of the Bible...

ah crap, nevermind this isn't the theology section. I was going to go into a long diatribe about the Jesus of the Bible because some people get God Almighty confused with mother Teresa.

[santamargarita]

49. Trickle down Jesus or Voodoo Jesus Economics

:}

[elocs]

47. How about Jesus IS a Liberal? Check here:

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

[liberal N proud]

51. The fundies hate when you tell them that

Then you have to explain it to them.

[RoccoR5955]

52. Jesus was my gardener... He moved back to Mexico. n/t

[onehandle]

54. Jesus existed.

Real scholars of history say there is no doubt that he lived.

Was he the son of God? Is there a God?

Not important.

The "There was no Jesus" people are the same as the "Hunt the Boeing" people.

They are an embarrassment to Liberals, not to mention to Democratic Underground.

[JuniperLea]

55. That's interesting...

Because I've watched at least a half a dozen historical documentaries on PBS that show there is no proof he ever lived. Curious.

[onehandle]

58. Half a dozen documentaries dedicated to disproving the existence of Jesus on PBS?

Name them, please.

[JuniperLea]

64. But the books are better, naturally:

Hermann Samuel Reimarus (1694-1768).1778, On the Intention of Jesus and His Teaching. Enlightenment thinker and professor of Oriental languages at the Hamburg Gymnasium, his extensive writings – published after his death – rejected 'revealed religion' and argued for a naturalistic deism. Reimarus charged the gospel writers with conscious fraud and innumerable contradictions.

Francois Marie Arouet (Voltaire) (1694-1778) The most influential figure of the Enlightenment was educated at a Jesuit college yet concluded, "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world ... The true God cannot have been born of a girl, nor died on a gibbet, nor be eaten in a piece of dough." Imprisoned, exiled, his works banned and burned, Voltaire's great popularity in revolutionary France assured him a final resting place in the Pantheon in Paris. Religious extremists stole his remains and dumped them in a garbage heap.

Count Constantine Volney, 1787, Les Ruines; ou, Méditation sur les révolutions des empires (Ruins of Empires). Napoleonic investigator saw for himself evidence of Egyptian precursors of Christianity.

Edward Evanson, 1792, The Dissonance of the Four Generally Received Evangelists and the Evidence of their Respective Authenticity. English rationalist challenged apostolic authorship of the 4th Gospel and denounced several Pauline epistles as spurious.

Charles François Dupuis, 1794, Origine de tous les Cultes ou La Religion universelle. Astral-mythical interpretation of Christianity (and all religion). “A great error is more easily propagated, than a great truth, because it is easier to believe, than to reason, and because people prefer the marvels of romances to the simplicity of history.” Dupuis destroyed most of his own work because of the violent reaction it provoked.

Thomas Paine, 1795, The Age of Reason. Pamphleteer who made the first call for American independence (Common Sense, 1776; Rights of Man, 1791) Paine poured savage ridicule on the contradictions and atrocities of the Bible. Like many American revolutionaries Paine was a deist:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of ... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." – The Age of Reason.

Robert Taylor, 1828, Syntagma Of The Evidences Of The Christian Religion; 1829, Diegesis. Taylor was imprisoned for declaring mythical origins for Christianity. "The earliest Christians meant the words to be nothing more than a personification of the principle of reason, of goodness, or that principle, be it what it may, which may most benefit mankind in the passage through life.”

Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834). 1836, Anacalypsis – An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis; or an Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions. English pioneer of archaeology and freemason.

Bruno Bauer, 1841, Criticism of the Gospel History of the Synoptics. 1877, Christus und die Caesaren. Der Hervorgang des Christentums aus dem romischen Griechentum. The original iconoclast. Bauer contested the authenticity of all the Pauline epistles (in which he saw the influence of Stoic thinkers like Seneca) and identified Philo's role in emergent Christianity. Bauer rejected the historicity of Jesus himself. "Everything that is known of Jesus belongs to the world of imagination." As a result in 1842 Bauer was ridiculed and removed from his professorship of New Testament theology at Tübingen.

Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841, Essays. One time Trinitarian Christian and former Unitarian minister held Jesus to be a "true prophet" but that organised Christianity was an "eastern monarchy".

"Our Sunday-schools, and churches, and pauper-societies are yokes to the neck."

Mitchell Logan, 1842, Christian Mythology Unveiled. “Reigning opinion, however ill-founded and absurd, is always queen of the nations.”

Ferdinand Christian Baur, 1845, Paulus, der Apostel Jesu Christi. German scholar who identified as "inauthentic" not only the pastoral epistles, but also Colossians, Ephesians, Philemon and Philippians (leaving only the four main Pauline epistles regarded as genuine). Baur was the founder of the so-called "Tübingen "

David Friedrich Strauss, 1860, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. Lutheran vicar-turned-scholar skilfully exposed gospel miracles as myth and in the process reduced Jesus to a man. It cost him his career.

Ernest Renan, 1863, Das Leben Jesu. Trained as a Catholic priest, Renan wrote a romanticised biography of the godman which was influenced by the German critics. It cost him his job.

Robert Ingersoll, 1872, The Gods. Illinois orator extraordinaire, his speeches savaged the Christian religion. "It has always seemed to me that a being coming from another world, with a message of infinite importance to mankind, should at least have verified that message by his own signature. Is it not wonderful that not one word was written by Christ?"

Kersey Graves, 1875, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours. Pennsylvanian Quaker who saw through to the pagan heart of Christian fabrications, though rarely cited sources for his far-reaching conclusions.

Allard Pierson, 1879, De Bergrede en andere synoptische Fragmenten. Theologian, art and literature historian who identified The Sermon on the Mount as a collection of aphorisms from Jewish Wisdom literature.The publication of Pierson's Bergrede was the beginning of Dutch Radical Criticism. Not just the authenticity of all the Pauline epistles but the historical existence of Jesus himself was called into question.

Bronson C. Keeler, 1881, A Short History of the Bible. A classic exposé of Christian fraud.

Abraham Dirk Loman, 1882, "Quaestiones Paulinae," in Theologisch Tijdschrift. Professor of theology at Amsterdam who said all the epistles date from the 2nd century. Loman explained Christianity as a fusion of Jewish and Roman-Hellenic thinking. When he went blind Loman said his blindness gave him insight into the dark history of the church!

Thomas William Doane, 1882, Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions. Outdated but a classic revelation of pagan antecedents of biblical myths and miracles.

Samuel Adrianus Naber, 1886, Verisimilia. Laceram conditionem Novi Testamenti exemplis illustrarunt et ab origine repetierunt. Classicist who saw Greek myths hidden within Christian scripture.

Gerald Massey, 1886, Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ. 1907, Ancient Egypt-The Light of the World. Another classic from an early nemesis of the priesthood. British Egyptologist wrote six volumes on the religion of ancient Egypt

Edwin Johnson, 1887, Antiqua mater. A Study of Christian Origins. English radical theologian identified the early Christians as the Chrestiani, followers of a good (Chrestus) God who had expropriating the myth of Dionysos Eleutherios ("Dionysos the Emancipator"), to produce a self-sacrificing Godman. Denounced the twelve apostles as complete fabrication.

Rudolf Steck, 1888, Der Galaterbrief nach seiner Echtheit untersucht nebst kritischen Bemerkungen zu den Paulinischen Hauptbriefen. Radical Swiss scholar branded all the Pauline epistles as fakes.

Franz Hartman, 1889, The Life of Johoshua: The Prophet of Nazareth.

Willem Christiaan van Manen, 1896, Paulus. Professor at Leiden and most famous of the Dutch Radicals, a churchman who did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. After resisting the argument for many years van Manen concluded none of the Pauline epistles were genuine and that Acts was dependent on the works of Josephus.

Joseph McCabe, 1897, Why I Left the Church. 1907, The Bible in Europe: an Inquiry into the Contribution of the Christian Religion to Civilization. 1914, The Sources of the Morality of the Gospels. Franciscan monk-turned-evangelical atheist. McCabe, a prolific writer, shredded many parts of the Christ legend – "There is no "figure of Jesus" in the Gospels. There are a dozen figures" – but he continued to allow the possibility for an historical founder, nonetheless.

Albert Schweitzer.1901, The Mystery of the Kingdom of God. 1906, The Quest of the Historical Jesus. The famous German theologian and missionary (35 years in the Cameroons) ridiculed the humanitarian Jesus of the liberals and at the same time had the courage to recognize the work of the Dutch Radicals. His own pessimistic conclusion was that the superhero had been an apocalyptic fanatic and that Jesus died a disappointed man. Famously said those looking for an historical Jesus merely found a reflection of themselves.

Wilhelm Wrede, 1901, The Messianic Secret. Wrede demonstrated how, in Mark’s gospel, a false history was shaped by early Christian belief.

George Robert Stowe Mead, 1903, Did Jesus Live 100 BC? A discussion of the Jewish Jeschu stories which moves Jesus back to an earlier time.

Thomas Whittaker, 1904, The Origins of Christianity. Declared Jesus a myth.

William Benjamin Smith, 1906, Der vorchristliche Jesus. 1911, Die urchristliche Lehre des reingöttlichen Jesus. Argues for origins in a pre-Christian Jesus cult on the island of Cyprus.

Albert Kalthoff, 1907, The Rise of Christianity. Another radical German scholar who identified Christianity as a psychosis. Christ was essentially the transcendental principle of the Christian community which aimed at apocalyptic social reform.

Gerardus Bolland, 1907, De Evangelische Jozua. Philosopher at Leiden identified the origin of Christianity in an earlier Jewish Gnosticism. The New Testament superstar is the Old Testament 'son of Nun', the follower renamed Jesus by Moses. The virgin is nothing but a symbol for the people of Israel. From Alexandria the "Netzerim" took their gospel to Palestine.



In 1907 Pope Pius X condemned the Modernists who were "working within the framework of the Church". An anti-Modernist oath was introduced in 1910.


Prosper Alfaric (1886-1955) French Professor of Theology, shaken by the stance of Pius X, renounced his faith and left the church in 1909 to work for the cause of rationalism.

Mangasar Magurditch Mangasarian, 1909, The Truth About Jesus ? Is He a Myth? Erstwhile Presbyterian Minister who saw through the fabrication.

Karl Kautsky, 1909, The Foundations of Christianity. Early socialist interpreted Christianity in terms of class struggle.

John E. Remsburg, 1909, The Christ: A critical review and analysis of the evidences of His existence. Gospels rife with contradictions. Doubtful that Jesus existed and a supernatural Christ is certainly Christian dogma.

Arthur Drews, 1910, Die Christusmythe (The Christ Myth). 1910, Die Petruslegende (The Legend of St Peter). 1924, Die Entstehung des Christentums aus dem Gnostizismus (The Emergence of Christianity from Gnosticism). Eminent philosopher was Germany's greatest exponent of the contention that Christ is a myth. The gospels historized a pre-existing mystical Jesus whose character was drawn from the prophets and Jewish wisdom literature. The Passion was to be found in the speculations of Plato.

John Robertson, 1910, Christianity and Mythology. 1911, Pagan Christs. Studies in Comparative Hierology. 1917, The Jesus Problem. Robertson drew attention to the universality of many elements of the Jesus' storyline and to pre-Christian crucifixion rituals in the ancient world. Identified the original Jesus/Joshua with an ancient Ephraimite deity in the form of a lamb.

Gustaaf Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, 1912, Radical Views about the New Testament. 1918, Voorchristelijk Christendom. De vorbereiding van het Evangelie in de Hellenistische wereld. Theologian and last of the Dutch radicals to hold a university professorship.

Alexander Hislop, 1916, The Two Babylons. Exhaustive exposure of the pagan rituals and paraphernalia of Roman Catholicism.

Edward Carpenter, 1920, Pagan and Christian Creeds. Elaborated the pagan origins of Christianity.

Rudolf Bultmann, 1921, The History of the Synoptic Tradition. 1941, Neues Testament und Mythologie. Lutheran theologian and professor at Marburg University Bultman was the exponent of 'form criticism' and did much to demythologise the gospels. He identified the narratives of Jesus as theology served up in the language of myth. Bultmann observed that the New Testament was not the story of Jesus but a record of early Christian belief. He argued that the search for an historical Jesus was fruitless: "We can know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus." (Jesus and the Word, 8)

James Frazer, 1922, The Golden Bough. Anthropological interpretation of man's progress from magic, through religion to science. Christianity a cultural phenomenon.

P. L. Couchoud, 1924, Le mystère de Jesus.1939, The Creation of Christ. Couchoud espoused an historical Peter rather than an historical Jesus and argued that the Passion was modelled on the death of Stephen.

Georg Brandes, 1926, Jesus – A Myth. Identified the Revelation of St John as the earliest part of the New Testament.

Joseph Wheless, 1926, Is It God's Word? An Exposition of the Fables and Mythology of the Bible and the Fallacies of Theology. 1930, Forgery in Christianity. American attorney, raised in the Bible Belt, shredded the biblical fantasy.

Henri Delafosse, 1927, Les Lettres d’Ignace d’Antioche. 1928, "Les e'crits de Saint Paul," in Christianisme. Epistles of Ignatius denounced as late forgeries.

L. Gordon Rylands, 1927, The Evolution of Christianity.1935, Did Jesus Ever Live?

John G. Jackson, 1933, Was Jesus Christ a Negro? 1937, Introduction To African Civilizations. 1941, Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth. 1970 Man, God, and Civilization. 1985, Christianity Before Christ. Most influential Black Atheist drew attention to the Ethiopian and Egyptian precedents of Christian belief.

Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus.

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory? 1970, Rebirth for Christianity. Jesus was never a person, but a symbol of the divine soul in every human being.

Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth? Mythical nature of Jesus and a summary of the ongoing debate between mythicists and historicizers. Mythic-only position is continuous tradition, not novel. Pagan origins of Christ.

Georges Las Vergnas, 1956, Pourquoi j'ai quitté l'Eglise romaine Besançon. 1958, Jésus-Christ a-t-il existé? Vicar general of the diocese of Limoges who lost his faith. Argues that the central figure of Christianity had no historical existence.

Georges Ory, 1961, An Analysis of Christian Origins.

Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ.

John Allegro, 1970, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. 1979, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth. Jesus was nothing other than a magic mushroom and his life an allegorical interpretation of a drug-induced state. Not jail for Allegro – but professional ruin.

George Albert Wells, 1975, Did Jesus Exist? 1988, The Historical Evidence for Jesus. 1996, The Jesus Legend. 1998, Jesus Myth. 2004, Can We Trust the New Testament? Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. Christianity a growth from Jewish Wisdom literature. Later books concede possible influence of a real preacher.

Max Rieser, 1979, The True Founder of Christianity and the Hellenistic Philosophy. Christianity started by Jews of the Diaspora and then retroactively set in pre-70 Palestine. Christianity arrived last, not first, in Palestine – that's why Christian archeological finds appear in Rome but not in Judea until the 4th century.

Abelard Reuchlin, 1979, The True Authorship of the New Testament. Conspiracy theory par excellence: Roman aristocrat Arius Calpurnius Piso (aka "Flavius Josephus") conspired to gain control of the Roman Empire by forging an entirely new religion.

Karlheinz Deschner, 1986-2004, The Criminal History of Christianity, Volumes 1-8. A leading German critic of religion and the Church. In 1971 Deschner was called before a court in Nuremberg, charged with "insulting the Church."

Hermann Detering, 1992, Paulusbriefe ohne Paulus?: Die Paulusbriefe in der holländischen Radikalkritik. German minister in the Dutch radical tradition. No Jesus and no Paul.

Gary Courtney, 1992, 2004 Et tu, Judas? Then Fall Jesus! The Passion is essentially Caesar's fate in Judaic disguise, grafted onto the dying/resurrcting cult of Attis. Jewish fans of Caesar assimilated the sacrificed 'saviour of mankind' into the 'Suffering Servant' of Isaiah.

Michael Kalopoulos, 1995, The Great Lie. Greek historian finds strikingly similar parallels between biblical texts and Greek mythology. He exposes the cunning, deceitful and authoritarian nature of religion.

Gerd Lüdemann, 1998, The Great Deception: And What Jesus Really Said and Did. 2002, Paul: The Founder of Christianity. 2004, The Resurrection Of Christ: A Historical Inquiry. After 25 years of study German professor concluded Paul, not Jesus, started Christianity. Lüdemann was expelled from the theology faculty at the University of Göttingen for daring to say that the Resurrection was "a pious self-deception." So much for academic freedom.

Alvar Ellegard, 1999, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ. Christianity seen as emerging from the Essene Church of God with the Jesus prototype the Teacher of Righteousness.

D. Murdock (aka 'Acharya S') 1999, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. 2004, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. Adds a astro-theological dimension to christ-myth demolition. Murdock identifies JC as a composite deity used to unify the Roman Empire.

Earl Doherty, 1999, The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Powerful statement of how Christianity started as a mystical-revelatory Jewish sect – no Jesus required!.

Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, 1999, The Jesus Mysteries. 2001, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. Examines the close relationship between the Jesus Story and that of Osiris-Dionysus. Jesus and Mary Magdalene mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess.

Harold Liedner, 2000, The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. Anachronisms and geographic errors of the gospels denounced. Christianity one of history's most effective frauds.

Robert Price, 2000, Deconstructing Jesus. 2003 Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? Ex-minister and accredited scholar shows Jesus to be a fictional amalgam of several 1st century prophets, mystery cult redeemers and gnostic 'aions'.

Hal Childs, 2000, The Myth of the Historical Jesus and the Evolution of Consciousness. A psychotherapist take on the godman.

Michael Hoffman, 2000, Philosopher and theorist of "ego death" who jettisoned an historical Jesus.

Burton Mack, 2001,The Christian Myth: Origins, Logic, and Legacy. Social formation of myth making.

Luigi Cascioli, 2001, The Fable of Christ. Indicting the Papacy for profiteering from a fraud!

Israel Finkelstein, Neil Silbermann, 2002, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts. Courageous archaeologists who skillfully proved the sacred foundational stories of Judaism and Christianity are bogus.

Frank R. Zindler, 2003, The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources. No evidence in Jewish sources for the phantom messiah.

Daniel Unterbrink, 2004, Judas the Galilean. The Flesh and Blood Jesus. Parallels between the tax rebel of 6 AD and the phantom of the Gospels explored in detail. 'Judas is Jesus'. Well, part of Jesus, no doubt.

Tom Harpur, 2005, The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light. Canadian New Testament scholar and ex-Anglican priest re-states the ideas of Kuhn, Higgins and Massey. Jesus is a myth and all of the essential ideas of Christianity originated in Egypt.

Francesco Carotta, 2005, Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity. Exhaustive inventory of parallels. Alarmingly, asserts Caesar was Jesus.

Joseph Atwill, 2005, Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus. Another take on the Josephus-Gospel similarities. Atwill argues that the 1st century conquerors of Judaea, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, used Hellenized Jews to manufacture the "Christian" texts in order to establish a peaceful alternative to militant Judaism. Jesus was Titus Flavius? I don't think so.

Michel Onfray, 2005, Traité d'athéologie (2007 In Defence of Atheism) French philosopher argues for a positive atheism, debunking an historical Jesus along the way.

Kenneth Humphreys, 2005, Jesus Never Existed. Book of this website. Draws together the most convincing expositions for the supposed messianic superhero. The author sets this exegesis within the socio-historical context of an evolving, malevolent religion.

Jay Raskin, 2006, The Evolution of Christs and Christianities. Academic and erstwhile filmaker Raskin looks beyond the official smokescreen of Eusebius and finds a fragmented Christ movement and a composite Christ figure, crafted from several literary and historical characters. Speculates that the earliest layer of myth-making was a play written by a woman called Mary. Maybe.

Thomas L. Thompson, 2006, The Messiah Myth. Theologian, university don and historian of the Copenhagen school who concludes Jesus and David are both amalgams of Near Eastern mythological themes originating in the Bronze Age.

[wroberts189]

84. How about just naming a couple of pbs shows? Seriously..

I am open minded.

[onehandle]

101. Nah.

It's easier to run to an atheist's site and post a bunch of random publications with no source than to answer a straightforward question.

Also, I thought that PBS was part of the conservative conspiracy? Wouldn't they want to push the existence of a man named Jesus?

Things I wonder about...

[JuniperLea]

104. It's easier to snark someone off than to think a little bit...

I have a job and a life. I can't spend that much time here. See my second response.

Don't wear out your shoes tapping your toes waiting for the microwave. And if you snark back at me again, as cowards are oft want to do, don't consider it a victory if I don't reply. I may not be back here for days... due to said life and job.

[JuniperLea]

103. Frontline did a couple...

From Jesus to Christ and The History of Jesus. Then there was the beautifully written and produced Bill Moyers / Joseph Campbell piece covering Campbell's book, The Power of Myth. It didn't come right out and say there was no Jesus, or no God, but the dots were left clearly marked for those of us who cared to connect them.

There is no proof he existed.

Look, I was raised in a Fundamentalist Christian home. One of my cousins, raised in the same church, is at this very moment in the Middle East serving as a Christian Missionary. Between the hypocrisy in the church and the total lack of evidence, the whole experience has left me agnostic. My cousin learned to speak, read and write in Hebrew, including many ancient dialects. Though her faith has never wavered, she is of the firm belief that the Christian religion has been bastardized to such a great degree that it is in name only that they have anything remotely connected to the teachings ATTRIBUTED to Jesus Christ. I told my cousin for years that at some point, she and I would meet in the middle of our gnostic quest.

[nikto]

90. Jesus is as real as...

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...


...or love.

[johnaries]

57. Let me really confuse things!

I think Jesus was a Taoist (pronounced Daoist). Except for the "only way to the Father is through me" thing (which was probably added later), everything he taught was a Taoist concept. Actually, if you read that phrase as "the only way to the Father (Tao) is through 'Me'" (meaning through the individual "Me" or through self-introspection) that is a VERY Taoist concept.

Actually, most religions have more things in common than they disagree - if you look at the basic roots and not the "interpretations" that inevitably come later.

We truly are "blind men feeling the elephant".

[Sugarcoated]

63. That's more interesting than confusing, IMO

Great post.

It's truly a sin how the words of Jesus were corrupted.

[johnaries]

76. Thank you! Jesus was one of the greatest Teachers

that ever lived! It's a shame that so many people corrupted his Teachings to support their own corrupt teachings.

[wroberts189]

87. He was telling people to look inside themselves.. yes I agree.

And here we are two thousand odd years later talking about it.

Amazing ... whoever he was I truly believe he had the divine inside him.

[Stumbler]

91. Agreed!

It's amusing how the original discussion of JC's teachings devolved into a conversation about whether the man actually existed. It's even more amusing to see how many atheists I know who actually live by the lessons taught, while their "Christian" counterparts are usually the 'morally-superior,' anti-choice, gun-toting thugs who vote for the Republican party, while bitching about the lack of decent jobs, excessive medical costs, etc.

My bumper-sticker:

"I like your Christ.
I do not like your Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ."
- Gandhi

[rucky]

136. Have you read any Thich Naht Hahn?

He goes into a similar theory w/ Buddha & Christ in two of his books.

[burning rain]

59. Good bumper sticker to get the conservoChristians' goat.

But really, what's to be so damn impressed with regarding Jesus? If he existed, sure, he was a pretty alright guy for his time and place, but he didn't come up with anything all that profound. Had he been a secular philosopher, he'd barely rate a footnote. Sure as hell there wouldn't be a Loeb Classical Library volume of Jesus. But he gets affirmative action because he was a religious figure.

[Fendius]

61. I am no where near religious, but this is a K&R if ever there was one

:yourock:

[cascadiance]

62. Jesus knew what to do with money changers in his day! Wish we did today as well!

Where's the Christian tradition there folks? Why aren't they throwing out the money changers out of their church and going in to Wall Street and raising a ruckus there too with the Citibank, B of A, and Goldman Sachs crowds?...

[wroberts189]

88. AMEN nt

[DailyGrind51]

110. And, THAT was the only time Jesus got physically angry in the New Testament!

When he drove the exploitive capitalists from the temple.


"Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."

-- James 5:1-5


Conservatives beware, judgment day is coming!

[Brigid]

68. Yes.

Because it's true.

[Orsino]

70. And betrayed by a fellow liberal whose courage failed. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

82. Judas Iscariot, the original founder of the DLC

Disciples Lacking Courage.

[wroberts189]

89. I do not think that story is over yet... Jane Roberts "Seth Speaks" nt

[Sugarcoated]

100. Is she a relation to you?

[wroberts189]

107. No ..she wrote a book with its own take on things...

that were channeled through her (if you can be open minded on those things)

In it a third drama is about to commence but its not the "end of times" diatribe where he comes to take the saved and screw the rest of us, its more like the world gets into such dire shape Jesus does come back ..but he comes back to kill off what remains of religion and teach humanity a third way. The same actors of the last drama will re-appear/re-incarnate to help. This is all supposed to be done by 2052.

The book was first published many decades ago but it is still carried just about everywhere...


http://www.amazon.com/Seth-Speaks-Eternal-Validity-Soul/dp/1878424076

reviews

http://www.amazon.com/Seth-Speaks-Eternal-Validity-Soul/product-reviews/1878424076/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[undeterred]

72. First time Jesus ever got a "rec" at DU

[Brigid]

74. Thanks for the reminder.

:)

[defendandprotect]

77. So true . . .

:evilgrin:

[JDPriestly]

93. Truest bumper sticker ever.

I wonder if these conservatives ever really read the New Testament and the words of Jesus. Most of the time he was telling people that compassion and sharing are more important than rules. How do they get the idea that being wealthy is some sort of sign that you are saved? Jesus was poor as were, apparently, his closest disciples. He specifically stated that if you want to "go to heaven" so to speak, you had to give away all that you had and follow Jesus. How much clearer can the message get? And you, from what I hear about the Family, certain would-be Christian groups take the name and make up their own gospel. I guess that's human nature. It certainly has nothing to do with Jesus.

[avaistheone1]

94. Sssh Jesus was on the far left.

You know the people who are called the crazy left around here.

[cascadiance]

95. Maybe we should put some segments on Jesus in the bible through two or three layers of translation..

By having it go through a lot of different translators and then back to English again, so that perhaps it wouldn't be immediately recognizable by even devout Christians where it was from. Try to get a timeless passage that could be passable for someone speaking today too. Then send it to Fox News and attribute it to some left wing activist at a peace march, or something like that, and see how they report it. Then if they call the quote someone from "the far left", then have someone explain the process of it just being a series of automated translations of Jesus, and see how they react to that. It would be fun to watch I think, if they hare having to explain why they called Jesus' translated words someone from "the far left".

Especially if you could point them to the translator programs themselves and ask them to do the translations themselves to verify it. I think Keith O. would love to try and arrange that sort of thing...

[democracy1st]

96. Jesus was a liberal as clear as day under any type of translation ,these fools

just continue to pick and choose what to concentrate on

[cascadiance]

105. But if we could trap them into thinking they were hearing a "run of the mill" liberal...

and then SHOW them that these are directly translated (in automated fashion) words of Jesus himself, perhaps it would be something that we could freak them out with, if we get they themselves to call him a liberal (even if they aren't aware that they are doing so at the time they do).

[DailyGrind51]

99. My Catholic education says a definitive, "Yes!"

[treestar]

102. conservatives' christianity is completely insincere

For them it only symbolizes a Euro/white heritage.

[harun]

119. I agree, a cultural heritage, not a religion.

[graywarrior]

113. !

:thumbsup:

[newspeak]

115. the concept of Jesus was a movement

Rome occupied Jerusalem and the Jews (Pharisees, Sadducee's) were fighting amongst themselves. In some instances, murdering one another. I think Eusebius plays an important part in adding to Josephus' work and other scriptures. They "Romanized" the movement,

I've read that some of the parables are also found in Buddhist text. Buddhism was five hundred years before Jesus, and I think that the ideology of Buddhist thought can be found in some of the New Testament text. I believe the "Jesus" movement was actually the spreading of Buddhist thought spilling into the ME. At a time when there was such turmoil in the ME, a message of peace, love and caring for one another was a novelty. Also, if you read some of the gnostic texts, women played a very important role in the Christian movement. But, Rome diluted the movement, especially when they held the Council at Nicea. And, Saul of Tarsus was no angel. I'd say they neutralized the movement and it became a tool for the Romans. You can almost tell what has been added "like Pontius Pilate washing his bloody hands", " or the Jews plotting to murder Jesus and yelling for his death". See, the violent Pontius Pilate is a saint and those Jews (who Jesus supposedly was one) were the real culprits of murdering Jesus. Also, at Nicea, the question of Mary's "virgin" birth is argued; also, the divinity of Jesus as the true son of God. Now Mary's story parallels Maya's birth story (Siddhartha's mother).

My thoughts on the Christian movement is that an authoritarian government overtook the movement and used it as a tool to control its' followers. I believe Constantine had that little dream about conquering by the sign of the cross.

[Honeycombe8]

122. I think Jesus was closer to a moderate. "There will always be the poor," He said.

I don't think he was a conservative, but I don't think he would be pro-choice, or favor giving everyone's $$$ to the poor. His take was that there would always be the poor...you can't really do anything about that. And altho he was a feminist, compared to others of his day, he definitely wasn't for full equal rights for women.

He was more like the voice of faith and reason, killed by the far right wingnuts.

[newspeak]

133. there are a few examples in the NT

where he says how to treat people. Remember the story of the good Samaritan and when he tells his disciples that what you do for the least of these you have done for him. I believe that his words about there will always be the poor, is because it's true--as long as you have those who are selfish and greedy, there will always be those who are poor who will suffer for it. If you read in some of the gnostic gospels (some were written about the same time as those texts in the NT)-you'll find a different view of the role of women and Peter's disdain or jealousy of Mary. I believe it's in the Book of Thomas the Twin, when Jesus tells Mary Magdalene that he will make her "male" or spiritually equal to his other disciples.

Now the NT is translated from Latin, but the Aramaic translation is quite different. If those texts that are Aramaic were all translated from Aramaic would there be some differences than what we have in the NT presently? And the words in Aramaic are allegedly the actual words of Jesus. Here is the Lords Prayer translated from the Aramaic:

O Birther! Father and Mother of the Cosmos you create all that moves in light.
O thou! The Breathing Life of all, Creator of the shimmering sound that touches us.
Respiration of all worlds, we hear your breathing-in and out-in silence.
Source of Sound: in the roar and the whisper, in the breeze and the whirlwind, we hear your name.
Radiant One: you shine within us, outside us-even darkness shines-when we remember.
Name of names, our small identity unravels in you, you give it back as a lesson.
Wordless action, Silent potency-where ears and eyes awaken, there heaven comes.
O Birther Mother-Father of the Cosmos!

"Prayers of the Cosmos" is translated from Aramaic by Neil Douglas-Klotz and the forward is by Matthew Fox. As you can see, the Lord's Prayer has quite a different meaning in Aramaic translation, than in the Latin.

[Sugarcoated]

137. Wow, that's really beautiful

and vastly different than the traditional translation. There's nothing about evil . . .!

[FrenchieCat]

138. All he needed were Balls!

Too bad Larry Flynt wasn't around then...
he could have given him a pair.